Who is open world content made for?

[Zeperio.4853]

3 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

One map is a map for new players that just started the game, the other is the latest endgame map for players lvl 80. There has to be different difficulties in open world, otherwise it’s boring and not appealing.
You want easy? Stay in Queensdale. 

Who said new players cannot play in expansion maps? This argument makes zero sense, a player who started yesterday can buy an expansion and be in an expansion map the same day they bought the map.

[Randulf.7614]

2 minutes ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

And I did not state that the current openworld events were never challenging. Also if you want challenging PvE content, that is what Fractals/Raids/Strikes/Convergences CM are for. Leave the openworld for the enjoyment of the majority of us who enjoys relaxing explorable content.

Yeah I get that, but the game has always had challenging open world content since day one. This isn't new and has existed as a core part of the game's design for 12 years. We shouldn't be objecting to it now when nothing has changed on that point. 

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

Leave the openworld for the enjoyment of the majority of us who enjoys relaxing explorable content.

99% of open world is for people that only want to do auto attack and don’t know how to play properly. The 1% that isn’t is such a huge problem for you? 

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

Who said new players cannot play in expansion maps? This argument makes zero sense, a player who started yesterday can buy an expansion and be in an expansion map the same day they bought the map.

Expansion maps are lvl 80 maps, no? 

[Zeperio.4853]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

99% of open world is for people that only want to do auto attack and don’t know how to play properly. The 1% that isn’t is such a huge problem for you? 

Where are you getting your arguments man. When did it sound like it was a problem for me? 😆 The game is an open world exploration game and you are literally trying to suggest it should not be like that 😂 Goodluck!

[yoni.7015]

Just now, Zeperio.4853 said:

Where are you getting your arguments man. When did it sound like it was a problem for me? 😆 The game is an open world exploration game and you are literally trying to suggest it should not be like that 😂 Goodluck!

I am not suggesting anything, I just don’t understand your crying that not everything in open world is for players that are braindead. 

[Zeperio.4853]

Just now, yoni.7015 said:

I am not suggesting anything, I just don’t understand your crying that not everything in open world is for players that are braindead. 

If you see majority of the openworld playerbase as braindead because they are not enjoying challenging content, you really should be playing a competitive game and not a fantasy Exploration game mate. Like I said, goodluck.

[Albadaran.1283]

It would be nice if Open World bosses would have an AI that adapts and reacts to the way players participate. And with some humor.

E.g. Tequatl comming up, flying around and looking at the crowd: 'Sorry not feeling well today, here are your spoons (dropping a random number of spoons), than fly away. Or on another time: 'Ok, same faces here again? You must be bored mwahahaha' - releasing one big flood killing most players and making it a hard event this time.

And so on.

But maybe that's more for future games using AI for Monster and NPC reactions 😉

[bq pd.2148]

48 minutes ago, Obnoxa.6702 said:

Why would you be certain of that? Soto didn't have that - the wvw vendor greyed out the relics my account didn't have unlocked yet... and while sometimes in life I feel a little singled out, I'm pretty sure Jesus doesn't hate me that much.

i have not checked with the very last set of relics as i had them in the legendary one, but earlier ones were either directly at the heroics trader or needed to be 'unlocked', but that only meant it was in the SotO reward track last chest to be selected, once selected there you could buy more for other characters.
ill swap reward track to it once more just to check for the new ones..

there is a good chance wiki was not updated yet, if they are in there

Edited May 27 by bq pd.2148

[WindBlade.8749]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

It's extremely difficult to balance Openworld Metas, because everyone from 5k to 45k dps can participate. 

Just look at convergences when they launched. 

45/50 people do 5k or less dps while the top 5 do 40k+. 

About 50% of the total dps in done by these 5 players. 

The moment the 5 players are not there, the boss will fail most likely. 

You basically have to balance around the fact that 90% of the players at this meta barely know what they are doing. 

The moments even the bare minimum is required. Like bringing boons and decent gear, the chance of failure starts to skyrocket. 

Just look at Eparch. That fight is actually a joke. But given that most Openworld players simply can't perform enough, it can still fail. 

It's a problem Gw2 had for many years. 

i'm part of the 5 players and it's kinda become a challenge for me to bcome the biggest % of the map in term of dmg. idk why it's just number go bigger dps bigger = good .

But yea this is real and i don't bother with convergence nm anymore anyway when the CM exist, they give better reward, are faster since organized group do them and more engaging.

[Obnoxa.6702]

13 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i have not checked with the very last set of relics as i had them in the legendary one, but earlier ones were either directly at the heroics trader or needed to be 'unlocked', but that only meant it was in the SotO reward track last chest to be selected, once selected there you could buy more for other characters.
ill swap reward track to it once more just to check for the new ones..

there is a good chance wiki was not updated yet, if they are in there

Ahh yeah I see what you are saying, I don't know why I didn't register the 'reward track' part of your op - most likely because I hadn't had any coffee yet, but I digress - yep, you are right, my bad 😋

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

One of the biggest reasons I bought this game is because I experienced a meta in queensdale that I was able to join a group of people despite me being a low level player without a "proper" gear and not knowing how to play it, and that is what caught my interest in the game. I have never experienced that in any other MMO I've played, and that experience alone convinced me that this game is worth spending my money on. If you want to disregard new players like that and gatekeep OPENWORLD meta events just so you can have a bit of a challenge, I'm afraid you are playing the wrong game.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.  From what I've seen this meta is nothing special.  You'll have a handful of players doing mechanics and pumping 30k DPS carrying a squad of players doing a fraction of that and spending half the fight in down state.  It really doesn't require a full squad of pros sweating hard to complete this meta.

Confused emojis brought to you by people who don't run arcdps.  If you did,  guarantee your squad of 50 has maybe 5 guys pushing 30k, several more at around 15-20k and then a bunch of guys eating marbles and lying around in down state next to the supports.  Don't worry.  Give it a month and the overachievers will carry this meta, too.

Edited May 27 by AliamRationem.5172

[Vortigern.1987]

2 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

. Honestly they really need is some way that if your dps is too low, you do no healing, you provide no boons or rezes, and you sit full dead under the boss refusing to waypoint, you are ejected from the map so someone else can take your spot.

There are more than one legit reason to be on a  open world map. I could do map completion, achievments or harvest resources, just to mention a few. I don't have to contribute to the meta at all, i could even go afk for a few minutes and have still every right to be on the map, that's the reason why it is called "Open World".

[Jedrik.3109]

I hate this mobile game mentality that all open world metas should have a permanent win condition so that pressing one and watching Netflix is meta.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

Hahaha, I remember when TD and AB failed fairly often, even with organized groups. Let alone VB and DS. I'd forgotten about the Orr priests, though. Orr + those priests were ROUGH back in the day. Taking/defending the temples was an achievement.

Tbqh, Eparch isn't "hard." He's an awful, timed HP sponge at the end of a tedious meta chain with a lightshow going on that requires players to actually, gods forbid, play the game, but he's not "hard" mechanically.

[Cuks.8241]

Ow is for everyone. And since you cant balance for everyone you need variety. Besides we have 2 metas that require a bit of organisation in a huge sea of metas. And those arent hard, just need a little organisation. Im not counting the last one because it will be just a normal meta in a few weeks.

Yestrday we did the new meta. Comm was trying to organise. He just wanted from the players in squad confirmation that they arent plants. Just type a word, do something that is beyond being a potato. A third of the squad was unable or refused to be a potato. We still did it with ease, like super easy.

I used to run a lot of private Twisted Marrionete. It was considered hard. I ran it with a friend comm that had just one requirement, you must be able to read and write 1 word in chat. We had 100% completion rate and it was really fun.

So I would say 99% of ow is balanced for vegetables. A few content pieces for people that can muster writting a few words and even there a lot of vegetable can be carried.

[Sobx.1758]

22 hours ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

what is the huge difference? both are open world events that literally anyone who has access to the map can join

Queensdale is literally a starter map where players begin without having earlier interaction with the game and its mechanics.

 

On 5/27/2024 at 12:32 PM, yoni.7015 said:

Variety in open world content is good. There should be easy meta events and meta events that are more challenging and need coordination. So that there are events for everyone.

True.

Edited May 28 by Sobx.1758

[Shadowmoon.7986]

1 hour ago, Vortigern.1987 said:

There are more than one legit reason to be on a  open world map. I could do map completion, achievments or harvest resources, just to mention a few. I don't have to contribute to the meta at all, i could even go afk for a few minutes and have still every right to be on the map, that's the reason why it is called "Open World".

I have no issue for you staying on the map doing these activities because 

1) you are not scaling up the encounter

2) you are not getting a reward for doing nothing, while others are having a harder encounter because you are there.

My issue is the people who tagged the boss with 10k damage, die, and sit their waiting to be full rezed making it so there are now 2 people scaling up the boss while not contributing.  

Personally I would have no issues with wvw rezzing rules being extended to the open world, that the full dead can not be rezed unless you are out of combat. 

[vardeleanu.8972]

Expansions are expansions. They're made for people that already went through the core game and are expected to have some level of skill to them. Ever since all those years ago when HoT came out and people stepped in it and got one shot by raptors, that has been made clear. If you feel that metas are becoming harder, it is because they are : they are expecting that after you've been doing so many maps, you would eventually learn to have a decent build and how to interact with enemies and their different mechanics. If that's too hard for some people, they can always go back to previous expansions or even the core game until they get better. 

However, classes have also been powercreeped to heaven and back, so a group of 10 trailblaizer virtuosos just autoatacking can probably clear any meta nowdays, so I genuinely can't see how anyone that understands the basic systems of the game could have trouble with open wolrd (unless they try to play something funky like power elementalist, but that's another topic).

Remember kids, don't boost to 80 or you'll end up confused and generally having a bad time

Edited May 27 by vardeleanu.8972

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Problem is catering to all players in Open World.

Maybe convergences gave a nice preview of what can be.

Remember the release of Soo Won fight? It was extremely hard with a very low succes rate. They nerved it quite a bit, lots happy, lots sad.

Now Convergences have Challenge Mode... this idea could be done with openworld content too I think. For example the Soo Won fight...

Bring the original harder fight back, call it Challenge Mode... have a portal in Arborstone where squads can open their own map to try challenge mode.

Just a though... it might help catering to a much wider player base.

[Skub.8240]

There have been some pretty good responses - some that gave me some stuff to think about! One thing I think I didn't convey good enough in my OP was that yes, I agree there was always "hard" and "complex" open world content in the past and in present (Classic Tequatl is one of my favorite fights), but I think the presentation of them is what matters. Take Triple Trouble; a lot of more casual players don't really like it or run it because it requires three semi-coordinated groups to run mechanics on top of damaging a boss with enough coordination to get the kill timing correct. Compare that to Tarir which is a chaotic mess of mechanics but it's broken up and focused. Each gate has one singular mechanic and then you damage it. And if you fail your timing it's not the end of the world due to a generous timer because it doesn't take forever. Because even in a hypothetical power crept future, both Eparch and Soo-won are going to take a long time to start up and do, even if you succeed. Just personally speaking, Dragon's Stand is probably the high end of time investment I'd like out of an open world meta, and every time I do tangled depths there are people complaining about how much waiting is involved in it.

42 minutes ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Problem is catering to all players in Open World.

Maybe convergences gave a nice preview of what can be.

Remember the release of Soo Won fight? It was extremely hard with a very low succes rate. They nerved it quite a bit, lots happy, lots sad.

Now Convergences have Challenge Mode... this idea could be done with openworld content too I think. For example the Soo Won fight...

Bring the original harder fight back, call it Challenge Mode... have a portal in Arborstone where squads can open their own map to try challenge mode.

Just a though... it might help catering to a much wider player base.

Ultimately I think this is probably one of the best solutions to this problem - if it even is really a problem, plenty of people disagree! Release the base content on a level random pug groups can do, then release a harder version designed for more coordinated groups as a challenge mode that offers increased rewards, and let the really dedicated players get both.

[kharmin.7683]

56 minutes ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Now Convergences have Challenge Mode... this idea could be done with openworld content too I think. For example the Soo Won fight...

Bring the original harder fight back, call it Challenge Mode... have a portal in Arborstone where squads can open their own map to try challenge mode.

 

Just make it a convergence option.  No need to push it into the open world environment.

[Randulf.7614]

8 minutes ago, Skub.8240 said:

There have been some pretty good responses - some that gave me some stuff to think about! One thing I think I didn't convey good enough in my OP was that yes, I agree there was always "hard" and "complex" open world content in the past and in present (Classic Tequatl is one of my favorite fights), but I think the presentation of them is what matters. Take Triple Trouble; a lot of more casual players don't really like it or run it because it requires three semi-coordinated groups to run mechanics on top of damaging a boss with enough coordination to get the kill timing correct. Compare that to Tarir which is a chaotic mess of mechanics but it's broken up and focused. Each gate has one singular mechanic and then you damage it. And if you fail your timing it's not the end of the world due to a generous timer because it doesn't take forever. Because even in a hypothetical power crept future, both Eparch and Soo-won are going to take a long time to start up and do, even if you succeed. Just personally speaking, Dragon's Stand is probably the high end of time investment I'd like out of an open world meta, and every time I do tangled depths there are people complaining about how much waiting is involved in it.

Ultimately I think this is probably one of the best solutions to this problem - if it even is really a problem, plenty of people disagree! Release the base content on a level random pug groups can do, then release a harder version designed for more coordinated groups as a challenge mode that offers increased rewards, and let the really dedicated players get both.

I don't like this solution. I don't think we should be splitting the playerbase up in what would be the antithesis to what GW2 is about. It happens enough in stances, I think open world should stay in open world in one version.

Having said that I think it's all moot. Anet is almost entirely guided by metric data. Soo Wan was nerfed because it fell below completion rates. Drakkar wasn't because it's completion rates were on target. Both turned out just fine. Soo-wan is now hard, but generally now completes with a full, semi organised map. I fully expect Eparch to be nerfed slightly - either with fewer rift spawns or with defiance bar adjustments. If not tomorrow, then June 4th is likely when Dragon Bash, Fractal CM and other updates come through as the next major patch on the schedule

[Teknomancer.4895]

10 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I fully remember the sheer volume of failures at Priests of Balathazar, Priests of Melandru and perhaps the hardest of all the core fights - Priest of Grenth. Back in the day, those were as hard as Eparch is now, if not harder.

Power creep has changed that and they are trivial now

Trivial or not, do they even run anymore? There are some node-gathering stops I make in Orr and I never see any of the temples contested or any of the events running and there are a few remaining achieves I'd like to get. Surely my timing can't be so bad that I literally never see these events...can it?

[Randulf.7614]

3 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Trivial or not, do they even run anymore? There are some node-gathering stops I make in Orr and I never see any of the temples contested or any of the events running and there are a few remaining achieves I'd like to get. Surely my timing can't be so bad that I literally never see these events...can it?

They get obliterated by passing players in small groups. I’ve seen Balthazar done most times I’m in the map. I know Lyssa gets done. Last time I saw Grenth fought he melted in no time.

They last less than champs in new maps, so I’m unsurprised if they are missed. A shame given their original status. I enjoyed those fights.

Edited May 28 by Randulf.7614