Secrets of the Obscure: Looking Back and Forward

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hear from Josh Davis, the Game Director on Guild Wars 2, about what our team has learned over the development of #SotO and how this has informed future development! 

 

Oh, and don't miss the environment preview of our next expansion at the end of the blog!

[Valaraukar.7652]

After reading the news, i must say that i'm really curious and glad to see that the team take in consideration was some player say about SOTO.

I'm still not a big fan of the third map split in the next extension but at least it's in 2 this time and seems that about the size it's like bjora or drizle so it will be really better than the inner split map, so i guess that it's a good point ?

Really i'm curious about next week and the trailer and more information about the new extension. But from what i read, it's on a good way and kind of excited about next week.

[DarkK.7368]

I really liked the tone of it. According to what I've been reading and people's opinion of SOTO (I still did not reach it, though I'm ejoying its features like extra weapons a lot), it's nice to see it reflected about what they learned. Cheers for the future! 😄

[Navaryn.7946]

First of all, thank you Josh for this retrospective. I am more than happy with what I read here and all the lessons you guys learned during SotO. I see almost everything that I thought was wrong, was mentioned here and this is a good sign for the future.

Although if I had to raise my concern about anything, that would be map release plan. I understand that one year release schedule is tight, and I am more than OK with no new map after release. We get two new maps and if they are good, we gonna have a good time with them for first 6 months. I am more worried with last map being split. In a perfect world I would imagine having 4 maps in expansion, 2 at release, one map with first/second update and last map for final patch. You know there is always something magical with the "last" patch, the finale, the climax of story. It probably would be best complemented by whole new map which us players can explore and turn every stone while waiting for new expansion. But I am gonna give you a benefit of doubt and not jump on conclusion when even new expansion isn't revealed yet. Maybe this split map will be great and second part will be enough to consider it as satisfying ending.

I can't wait to see what you prepared for us in next expansion and hopefully with all experience you gained with SotO, you will deliver awesome story

 

PS. Don't do this, don't give me hope for new Raid... that would be awesome. Bring Raids back!

Edited May 28 by Navaryn.7946
Didn't finish my thought with accidental enter

[Danikat.8537]

Personally I don't think the number of maps matters, what's important is what there is to do within them. I don't think this would happen but hypothetically Anet could release 6 or 7 maps in an expansion, but if they're tiny or largely empty space that would actually be worse than the 3-4 maps we typically get in an expansion. They could also release an expansion with just 1 new map but with loads of stuff to do within it, although I suspect in practical terms it would need different layers or something so it doesn't all overlap and I know that's not a popular design.

[Dotveg.5108]

I like the honesty in this post, felt like it was needed. Nice reading of the room, sincerely.

I like the fact that you acknowledge you did overshoot, tried to go too big, and ultimately missed the mark with SoTO's narrative — definitely a problem that came with the territory, since GW2 is to some extent KNOWN for its grand scale, so having to tone it down definitely was and probably still is going to be hard. Admitting where you stumbled is incredibly rare with other studios taking the high road instead. I appreciate you serving us some humble pie.

I don't have much in the way of complaints. You've pretty much summed up all the issues I had with SoTO which I feel is comforting. Of course, lucidity only goes as far as your actions will take it. I appreciate you're telling us you've learned some valuable lessons; I'll wait patiently until next week and forward till release to see the results of those lessons for myself. Keeping a healthy dose of skepticism until I see the real deal. Just a smidge. 😌

 

[EDIT:] Oh, hold on, I know what to complain about! Please make your QA tighter going forward. I'm still very upset you haven't fixed the Synergetics Cyberscale fireball animations to this day even though those have been broken since day one of SoTO. If you're adding functionality to an already existing mount/piece of equipment/other, make sure ALL aspects of it aren't broken and be reactive, please. This isn't exclusive to SoTO, but I feel it's been particularly worse this time around.

Edited May 28 by Dotveg.5108
Added something to complain about!

[Randulf.7614]

3 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Personally I don't think the number of maps matters, what's important is what there is to do within them. I don't think this would happen but hypothetically Anet could release 6 or 7 maps in an expansion, but if they're tiny or largely empty space that would actually be worse than the 3-4 maps we typically get in an expansion. They could also release an expansion with just 1 new map but with loads of stuff to do within it, although I suspect in practical terms it would need different layers or something so it doesn't all overlap and I know that's not a popular design.

I agree to an extent, but I miss the sense of exploration I had with a chain of new maps. I think 3 is still too low, but I can't also say I'm not having fun because I am. I just lack that sense of adventure and discovery that attracts me to an MMO

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Please, don't make land spears into 2-handed weapons with sword animations. You will greatly disappoint many players if you do that. 

The main reason people want land spears is to carry them like paragons, like giving warriors a 1h ranged weapon they can carry alongside a shield or a warhorn in WvW.

For a new 2h weapon, tridents could be used as polearms instead.

[Blademaster.6123]

Love to hear it. Glad to see the general most complaints and feedback being addressed and hopefully improved on going forward. Only remaining question lies in recent boss design choices. Specifically the recent 2 fractals and strikes. Can we get a break down on those choices and what was learned there?

[Luthan.5236]

I wonder if I can like the 3-maps setup. Even with different release timing ... the previous expansions usually had more. And the living world seasons a lot more. Feels weird to leave the regions and I wouldn't mind if they added more - maybe small standa-line maps in the future. (Like one further Nayos map set in the future after Eparch.)

Story could introduce underwater (still did not have a lot of focus) or at least focus on races that live close to the water. (Though it did not look like an ice region and the Kodans usually live there - since they are polar bears - it would be interesting to use Waiting Sorroe mentiond in SotO but never seen so far.) Main interest though (since story ... you never know how it is going to turn out) will be the new gameplay stuff (mechanics, items).

I wonder if the pre-order will immediately be available with the reveal. Going to get the Ultimate anyways - never need to buy more gems than that per year. 😄

Edited May 28 by Luthan.5236

[zealex.9410]

Good takeaways imo, however if you allow me yo nitpick... Pls fix the on land stance for spear on land, it looks so goofy and unnatural.

[Ashantara.8731]

A great read. Will definitely give the next xpac a shot after reading the blog. Thank you, ArenaNet! 👍

[Randin.5701]

I'd say that the right lessons got taken away from SotO, now we just need to see how well the devs are able to act on those lessons. Looking forward to the announcement.

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I agree to an extent, but I miss the sense of exploration I had with a chain of new maps. I think 3 is still too low, but I can't also say I'm not having fun because I am. I just lack that sense of adventure and discovery that attracts me to an MMO

I agree that exploration is important, it's one of my main motivations in any game, I'm just saying what's available to explore and discover is more important than how it's divided up. It's like saying you'd prefer a pizza cut into 12 slices instead of 8, so you get more pizza.

I don't think anyone would say a game like Skyrim or Breath of the Wild doesn't prioritise exploration because they've only got 1 overworld map, and dividing it into more pieces wouldn't make it better. Hypothetically Anet could have split off each group of islands in Skywatch Archipelago to make 5 maps instead of 1, and done the same with Amnytas. Then they could claim SotO launched with 10 maps, but it would be the same amount of stuff we got with 2, so it wouldn't be any better.
 

3 hours ago, Dotveg.5108 said:

I like the honesty in this post, felt like it was needed. Nice reading of the room, sincerely.

I like the fact that you acknowledge you did overshoot, tried to go too big, and ultimately missed the mark with SoTO's narrative — definitely a problem that came with the territory, since GW2 is to some extent KNOWN for its grand scale, so having to tone it down definitely was and probably still is going to be hard. Admitting where you stumbled is incredibly rare with other studios taking the high road instead. I appreciate you serving us some humble pie.

I don't have much in the way of complaints. You've pretty much summed up all the issues I had with SoTO which I feel is comforting. Of course, lucidity only goes as far as your actions will take it. I appreciate you're telling us you've learned some valuable lessons; I'll wait patiently until next week and forward till release to see the results of those lessons for myself. Keeping a healthy dose of skepticism until I see the real deal. Just a smidge. 😌

 

[EDIT:] Oh, hold on, I know what to complain about! Please make your QA tighter going forward. I'm still very upset you haven't fixed the Synergetics Cyberscale fireball animations to this day even though those have been broken since day one of SoTO. If you're adding functionality to an already existing mount/piece of equipment/other, make sure ALL aspects of it aren't broken and be reactive, please. This isn't exclusive to SoTO, but I feel it's been particularly worse this time around.

I agree with this. I've seen too many times when a game didn't hit the mark and disappointed players and then they're still talking about what a great success it was and telling players how happy they are about it. I don't have a problem with SotO (no it's not the best thing ever, but I'm having fun with it) but the fact that Anet are willing to say they didn't completely meet their own expectations and they think things could have gone better is refreshing. It also makes it easier to believe when they say things are going well, knowing they're willing to say when it's not.

[Gorani.7205]

Quote

 I know that’s a little vague (again, check back in next week), but rest assured, that first quarterly release will include something really exciting that players have been requesting for over 5 years.

A new WvW map?

Quote

Looking back over the game’s history, I think this maintenance and upkeep is one of the areas where we’ve fallen short, at times even falling into the trap of releasing new features for the sake of releasing new features even if they overlap with something that already exists.

Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, Strike Missions ? I would agree here.

Quote

For our next expansion, we’re going to tell a more grounded story set in a new region of Tyria, with more of a focus on local threats and the global conversation around those threats. 

Probably the most interesting thing, because I never connected to the story of helping one part of demon creatures fight another part of demon creatures.

[vrauns.3215]

3 hours ago, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

Please, don't make land spears into 2-handed weapons with sword animations. You will greatly disappoint many players if you do that. 

The main reason people want land spears is to carry them like paragons, like giving warriors a 1h ranged weapon they can carry alongside a shield or a warhorn in WvW.

For a new 2h weapon, tridents could be used as polearms instead.

Not sure what peoples obession are with weapon animations are, let it go already.

[RavensSorrow.6128]

I love reading developer insights like these. I was always sure SotO would be weaker just because it was the first in a new cycle of expansions. However, you guys packed a lot in. Not that everything was a hit, but I really appreciate everything put into this expansion. It's been fun but I'm definitely ready for the next round!  See you next week for the new stuff.

 

[pallas.8150]

He sugar coated a little of the feedback like the storyline but sure. LOL. 

I'm not really sure the last 'map expansion' in Nayos should even count, honestly. You can't even access it unless you are part of a meta chain.

[Linken.6345]

5 hours ago, Valaraukar.7652 said:

After reading the news, i must say that i'm really curious and glad to see that the team take in consideration was some player say about SOTO.

I'm still not a big fan of the third map split in the next extension but at least it's in 2 this time and seems that about the size it's like bjora or drizle so it will be really better than the inner split map, so i guess that it's a good point ?

Really i'm curious about next week and the trailer and more information about the new extension. But from what i read, it's on a good way and kind of excited about next week.

Well we could end up with gyala delves split too.

Not as good as either bjora marshes or drizzlewood then.

[Mysticjedi.6053]

Sounds like the Dev's took the right lessons. The story was definitely too big for a single expansion. I look forward to a more grounded regional story that will hopefully flush out new characters. 

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I am actually liking the idea of not having every update having a map, but when it does it is full. Also utilizing and expanding on places that already exist in the game. I like it when new story connects familiar places with new content. It was what made LW4 great with using PoF and core maps.

Yes, please integrate new content with existing systems so we aren't overloaded with materials, currencies, and convoluted recipes that will have zero value after the expansion. When there was a new legendary weapon coming out every Living World episode that used materials that already existed, it let players with the resources ready to make them. Freeing them up to focus on enjoying the content.

As for story, focusing on personal interactions and our characters making big discoveries would be nice. SotO started so strong with us being at the right place at the right time to stumble on a secret society was cool, but immediately made irrelevant when we got into the tower. Tone and mood needs to be held onto longer and explored.

[Bingus.4236]

Quote

the plot was too complex for what can be reasonably handled within an annual expansion

It wasn't too complex, it was just boring and bad. More Astral Ward? No thanks, you need some better ideas.

[vrauns.3215]

Even people said they won't get soto because they were mad that ranger maces didn't have new animations like really, how many ways can you swing a mace.

Edited May 29 by vrauns.3215

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

Sigh... I think y'all need to make the 3rd map feel more like a single map.... dry top feels like several isolated maps stitched together instead of a single map... bjora marches feels like 2 isolated maps stitched together instead of feeling like a single map... inner nayos actually feels like 2 isolated maps plus a fractal stitched together, since a quarter of the map isn't even accessible outside the meta... drizzlewood even has this feeling with the river dividing the map...

Hopefully this new schedule allows you to add more into the zone to make it feel more complete during the first phase. Hopefully there won't be such a huge space-wasting divide in between the two halves of the map this time. Special effects (like storm fog or a shield or something) could block the view of the second half of the map without using a huge cliff or river to divide the map, but could also allow the complete map to flow better from one release into the next and hopefully feel like 1 map instead of 2

Edited May 29 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[HotDelirium.7984]

REDACTED!

UPDATE- the mmorpg.com interview shed some light on their thought processes and I appreciate the transparency. I too am curious about the future.

Edited May 29 by HotDelirium.7984