The community becomes less demanding

[Ashen.2907]

9 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

"a number" is arguable one with information so far, and it being the one on redundancy on new systems, which is arguable, because it was a common complain that home instances are not satisfactory home mechanic, and none of them would thematically have any room to add in mechanics in popular demand in terms of decorating, because all of them were basically whole city districts.

So unless in your book "one" constitutes "a number" (implied plural in general english use), I fail to see where do you see multiple ways that current state of announcements of JW is going against, the "lessons" listed in AN retrospective blog?

I saw it as two examples of redundancy. The housing vs home instances that you mentioned, plus a new crafting system for homestead decorations. Perhaps he meant multiple disconnects from the same lesson.

[Trejgon.9367]

3 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I saw it as two examples of redundancy. The housing vs home instances that you mentioned, plus a new crafting system for homestead decorations. Perhaps he meant multiple disconnects from the same lesson.

Ah right, I forgot about the crafting, because the post I saw didn't seem to specify we are going to have new crafting profession for it, just that it won't use scribing. That would make some sense.

[kiroho.4738]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Similarily made list for SotO also seemed quite good for the price. And technically we did get everything that was on that list. And yet we still ended with the mess it turned into

Tbf, even with all the mess, Soto was still totally worth the 25 bucks.

Edited June 7 by kiroho.4738

[kiroho.4738]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:19 AM, Futa.4375 said:

He/she quite clearly answered to your points, even before the editing.

They quoted me and changed what I wrote dude...
That's why it's gone now.

Edited June 8 by kiroho.4738

[Astralporing.1957]

29 minutes ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Tbf, even with all the mess, Soto was still totally worth the 25 bucks.

Maybe as an indie game. Not as expansion to GW2. Think about it. We actually paid 25 bucks in order to have devs bring the quality of the game down. And not by a small amount. That's not what i'd call "worth it" unless my desire would be to see the game doing badly. Which it definitely is not the case.

[eyelogix.1654]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:33 PM, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

game is clearly in maintanence mode.

Nope it's not in maintenance mode they would just make smaller updates when needed or bug fixes.

[kiroho.4738]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Maybe as an indie game. Not as expansion to GW2.

I thought about it. I would pay the same money again for the same kind of content.

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We actually paid 25 bucks in order to have devs bring the quality of the game down.

We paid 25 bucks to get exactly what was announced.
Quality was less, especially at story and (3rd) map, yes, but it's still worth the price.

Anet clearly told us that they a) want to slim down the expansions and b) that improving their employees' work balance is one important factor.
Many people seem to ignore latter one.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

SotO is the first time I have ever regretted spending money on my hobby. Not because of the price but because of what was delivered. Between Gayalla and SotO I have now had the two worst gaming experiences of my time playing computer games (from Pong to today). I am not demanding anything but I am also no longer spending $600 - $1,000 per month across multiple accounts either. I am willing to pay for a good product and will be waiting until well after launch to consider spending on expacs  going forward.

[Artemis.8034]

Personally I was hoping for a new class or even race, what else am i going to use boosts on lol But we will see Im hoping there will be mursaat that are like Mabon, and we can play as one lol

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

On 6/6/2024 at 3:26 AM, Sinsear.5068 said:

...The spear for all classes is to save on animation work and duplicate skills. Besides the visual effects, it's not much work...

It's the exact same amount of work as a new weapon for each class. Because... it's a new weapon for each class. As for animation work, how many different ways can you swing/thrust a spear?

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:21 AM, Omega.6801 said:

...Land-spears are definitely a further downgrade. We went from "Each class gets an elite spec with a new spin on the class, new abilities AND a new weapon"...

How many different ways do you need to play each class? Once each class has a Power DPS, Condi DPS & Support spec, what else is there exactly? 

The only thing they can add at this point that isn't going to either be power creep that makes a previous eSpec obsolete or a lesser specimen of a previous eSpec is weapons that can be used with any eSpec.

[Westenev.5289]

17 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

How many different ways do you need to play each class? Once each class has a Power DPS, Condi DPS & Support spec, what else is there exactly? 

The only thing they can add at this point that isn't going to either be power creep that makes a previous eSpec obsolete or a lesser specimen of a previous eSpec is weapons that can be used with any eSpec.

 

I think this is only true so long as Anet holds true to their philosophy of "all classes shall be homogonous and provide everything other classes can". How DPS/Buffs are applied, either through mobility or mechanics, can affect how you enjoy the class. For example, Bladesworn's Dragon Trigger just feels good because big number is big - while other people might not enjoy it because it roots you in place. I vastly lost interest in base warrior/berserker when they messed with the F1 Greatsword animation (which was probably a pvp buff maybe?).

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Maybe as an indie game. Not as expansion to GW2. Think about it. We actually paid 25 bucks in order to have devs bring the quality of the game down. And not by a small amount. That's not what i'd call "worth it" unless my desire would be to see the game doing badly. Which it definitely is not the case.

I can't even buy a decent 6 pack for $25 and that only lasts a few hours.

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

SotO is the first time I have ever regretted spending money on my hobby. Not because of the price but because of what was delivered. Between Gayalla and SotO I have now had the two worst gaming experiences of my time playing computer games (from Pong to today). I am not demanding anything but I am also no longer spending $600 - $1,000 per month across multiple accounts either. I am willing to pay for a good product and will be waiting until well after launch to consider spending on expacs  going forward.

Did.... Did you just claim Pong is better than SotO? lmao

[yoni.7015]

4 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I am also no longer spending $600 - $1,000 per month

As if you spend 1.000$ every month on Guild Wars 2. 

[Krzysztof.5973]

The discussion was never about the price, It's the quality of every piece of content we are getting. I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather wait longer and pay for more for the content that's not anemic as SOTO's. 

[Omega.6801]

8 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

How many different ways do you need to play each class? Once each class has a Power DPS, Condi DPS & Support spec, what else is there exactly? 

The only thing they can add at this point that isn't going to either be power creep that makes a previous eSpec obsolete or a lesser specimen of a previous eSpec is weapons that can be used with any eSpec.

PowerDPS, CondiDPS, AlacDPS, QuickDPS, HealAlac, HealQuick are not "ways" to play a class in the sense of Elite Specs. They're builds. An Elite Spec is a new spin on a core class, a new way to see, to experience a core class. Look at Thief for example. Daredevil is a high mobility, melee fighter that specializes in martial arts. Deadeye is a long ranged, focused sniper that specilizes in taking down one target afer the other. Specter is a a thief that specialized in magic and mysticism, not just to damage foes but to also support its allies. Each is their own ways, their own spin on playing/being a Thief. Which one of them is the DPS, the support and the heal build, that's just mechanics and can be changed with any given balance patch.

Where you are right though is, that after ten years, there is only so much design space left to go with the nine core classes before the overlaps become to great and elite specs lose their identity. But I doubt that we were at that point already. It is however more work to design, test and balance nine elite specs, especially when you plan on churning out an "expansion" once per year. It's sad they abandoned that concept imho.

Adding new weapons like in SotO was a bit like "Elite Specs Light", adding a bit of a new flavor to some classes. We'll see what the spear will add, it being the same weapon for all classes matters little in the end, since weapons and skills are very disconnected in this game. It's just a bit lazy imho and feels very "pandering to an easy to plase crowd", hence the topic of this thread. The community becoming less demanding. Who cares if SotO had huge problems "ZOMG THEY'RE DOING LANDSPEARS WAOH!!!" - "Have you noticed the overall decline in quaility and the overall increase of grindy achievements" - "HOUSING!!! OMG HOUSING FINALLY!! HOUSING YOU GUIZZZZZ!!!"

Edited June 8 by Omega.6801

[Cyninja.2954]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:38 PM, Tempest.8479 said:

I feel like people often fail to account for the release cadence when comparing the different models for releasing content, or at least minimize its impact on how much content the player base has actually received. Season 3 took a year to complete after 9 months of no content at all, and season 4 took 18 months to complete from its first release. This new release cadence actually provides content on a similar scale, just broken up into smaller chunks.

If you compare the major forms of content/progression delivered over the span of each of those Living World Seasons, you get something like this: 

Living World Season 3 (12 months + 9 month content drought)

• 6 maps
• 2 raids (4 wings) 
• 3 fractals
• 2 mastery lines

Living World Season 4 (18 months)

• 6 maps
• 3 raids
• 3 fractals
• 3 mastery lines
  • 2 mounts

 

The release cadence for both mini-expansions combined falls within a similar timeframe to either of those seasons. Assuming they release the updates for Janthir Wilds at the same pace, we'd get something like this:

SotO + Janthir Wilds (21 months)

• 6 maps
• 1 raid
• 2 strike missions
• 2 fractals
• 6+ mastery lines
  • 2 expanded mount masteries

And that's not even considering any of the expansion-level marquee features/overhauls added like: 

• Weaponmaster training
• 1 expanded weapon proficiency per profession
• 1 new weapon type for all professions
• Housing
• Wizard's Vault

Thanks for bringing this up again, I personally agree. Players are far to often hung up on amount of episodes per season disregarding release cycles. Still the amount of content has dropped significantly compared to the peak days.

For example, HoT released on October 23, 2015 (and yes, it had a long content drought development cycles before that) into LW Season 3 which ran from July 26th, 2016 (9 months content drought) until July 25th, 2017 to then seamlessly transition into Path of Fire on September 22, 2017.

That's essentially Season 3 AND the entire Path of Fire expansion developed between October 2015 and September 2017. That's 23 months for 6 lws3 maps, 5 PoF maps WITH all the expansion perks of PoF AND it transitioned into Living World Season 4.

So yes, while we are getting more content than anything post season 4 and especially the IBS and EoD debacle, the amount of content is down. It is clear that resources are going else where once again.

Quote

 

I think there's plenty of discussion to be had as to the quality of the content these new expansions are providing, but I don't think the argument that they're providing less than they did before holds up if you account for release cadence. Neither expansion provides the amount of content that any of the previous expansions did, but that's the point.

Heart of Thorns launched with a $50 price tag. For the same price as launch HoT, the totality of content provided across these 2 expansions will be far closer to that of the most content-rich periods of the game's lifetime, or any other "regular" expansion, than many people are willing to admit.

 

It's both. Again, the content we are getting is more than the most severe content droughts of the past, but it is far less than during HoT or PoF days.

The quality is a separate issue and has suffered too. The best team currently seems to be the maintenance and update team which touches up issues and gives us quality of life updates. Something which has been overdue for years.

What we are getting now is essentially the living world model light, without actual expansions, at a lower quality level. Which given the amount of shared assets is pretty bad content wise.

The good thing: mini expansions create more "buzz" than living world seasons. Even if only due to the price tag and naming difference. Plus the game, unlike many of its competitors, just keeps growing content wise. That's of little value if the content is of poor quality though.

TL;DR:

amount of content is down compared to peak levels of content (and we know the studio had to deal with burnout back then) and is up compared to no content post Season 4.

The main issue lies with the quality though which too has suffered despite shared resources between modes.

Edited June 8 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:14 PM, PixeLpics.8017 said:

To recap, we went from: 

- Hot, Pof, eod : a lot of elite spe with new gameplay, new weapon for all classes. 

- Soto : just one new different weapon for all classes (most of which are currently useless)

- Jw : a new similar (recycled) weapon for all classes.

And now I see everyone says Arena are geniuses. Is it me or has the community become less demanding over the years?

 

In the other hand , the company is crossing out things that the community really wanted (OW legendary, easier skyscale, Houses , Raids , PvP modes(wtf)).

Any new thing afte rthat will be met , with excitment

Now we need

a)  PoF maps to drop the "skyscale treats"//echange AA to treats and if you eat 100 you Skyscale will not latch on the ground if you get close to it (you need Spacebar for an imergency break) . It keeps the maps populated , and less hostile people that try to sell them on the Tp will be less hostile to new  people like in here :

b) Implant v2 fishing , like WoW

c) Offer the Raid set with OW requirements , now that people can play Raids in OW (no need to to spent any real money to come up  with a better LFG . Forever the Raids will be linked with the Living Storie candance . So will PvP might seems that will use the PvE assets too)

d) And afterwards if the Community allows us , we can create new exciting things (or lets have  a "punishment game , like the 1st CM undertuned boss , igh HP bosses in instances 😛)

Edited June 8 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Trejgon.9367]

19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Maybe as an indie game. Not as expansion to GW2.

I find this sentiment in particular funny, because out ther over at ESO, which has dev studio much larger than AN behind it, people are paying more than SotO pricetag, for less content than whole of SotO. And there are even people on the forums praising zos for how good and big chapter Necrom was.....

Comparing official forums communities between those two games is the funniest stuff ever.

[Astralporing.1957]

34 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

I find this sentiment in particular funny, because out ther over at ESO, which has dev studio much larger than AN behind it, people are paying more than SotO pricetag, for less content than whole of SotO. And there are even people on the forums praising zos for how good and big chapter Necrom was.....

Comparing official forums communities between those two games is the funniest stuff ever.

There are reasons why i'm not playing ESO, you know.

But to respond a more directly: when shopping for stuff, you usually have to choose between quality things and cheap ones. In case of games, i strongly differentiate between those two types of titles. And the cheap titles for me are not a replacement for those from quality basket.

Making GW2 "expansions" cheaper does not in any way compensate for quality dropping so low they got removed from that category. I'm not interested in cheap MMORPGs. I am interested in good ones. And SotO wasn't that.

Edited June 8 by Astralporing.1957

[Darkvramp.5640]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:14 AM, PixeLpics.8017 said:

And now I see everyone says Arena are geniuses. Is it me or has the community become less demanding over the years?

Or people have learned to curb their expectations, after years of having been let down.

You are not seeing people not demanding much, because they won't get much.

Everything in this expansion seems perfectly reasonable for the new model going forward. Would I like to see more, obviously, but spouting stuff here in passive aggressive commentary to bypass the censor does nothing but get your feedback ignored.

[kharmin.7683]

Nope. Players are still demanding that the game cater to their personal wants/desires https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/147160-janthir-wild-why-itll-suck/?do=getNewComment

 

[kiroho.4738]

39 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Nope. Players are still demanding that the game cater to their personal wants/desires https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/147160-janthir-wild-why-itll-suck/?do=getNewComment

 

I would say one person creating a "cry out loud" post arguin with... assumptions is something else than being demanding. 🙂 

Edited June 9 by kiroho.4738

[Ashen.2907]

18 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

As if you spend 1.000$ every month on Guild Wars 2. 

Reading comprehension. Nowhere in my post does it say that I spend $1000 every month on GW2. In fact it states that I do not spend $1000 every month.

Edited June 9 by Ashen.2907

[Ashen.2907]

19 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Did.... Did you just claim Pong is better than SotO? lmao

Well Pong does have a better story, characterization, and general writing.