Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Revenant

[mirage.8046]

17 hours ago, Twilightmage.8309 said:

we needed another ranged power/condi wep and we didnt get it... again

well the next question you ask yourself is 'whom was this weapon made for??' rev's spear will not cut a hole into any game mode the way it is now.

[Shagie.7612]

7 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

well the next question you ask yourself is 'whom was this weapon made for??' rev's spear will not cut a hole into any game mode the way it is now.

A dev that wants to play condi rev but hates bows is the only thing that makes sense at this point lol
Pretty sure they don't like longbows/shortbows in general

But also maybe to be a WvW pick since it doesn't have to deal with proj hate and has no facing requirements on any skills, even the auto
I'm not even sure the autoattack was a projectile tbh
Mag aura falls off before it finishes a cast anyways

[Nokaon.4603]

On 7/8/2024 at 12:23 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

I suggest to increase archemorus spear throw animation 3 times as big

Thats the thing, it seems to be bugged atm, a lot of people can't even see my big boy being spawned or the throw itself, they just fall flat, i've won so many fights because my boy is a literal invisible aimbot

[Malus.2184]

Quote

Revenant spear aimed to be a heavy weapon that built up strength, culminating in powerful damage. However, in the beta we saw that this weight was unwieldy and its punches lacked impact. Casting times are being decreased across many skills, and we are increasing the condition variety of the skills to help its damage stick.

Crushing Abyss’s maximum stacks has been reduced from 5 to 3, making the weapon reach its maximum potential a lot faster. Abyssal Blot will now pull immediately, helping the weapon set itself up better. The result of these changes is a more fluid weapon with more tools to secure its damage.

That's at least something, now, what about everything else?

Due to how Crushing Abyss interacts with Skill 5 rather than a massive finisher it feels like every other skill just exists for its sake. There's also NOTHING about one of the most important topics, namely the range. Is it still in the 600-unit range? If so, the weapon is useless as a ranged weapon. There's also the Auto Attack. is it a chain or still one useless attack?

This was the weapon that by far had the most issues of all the spears in the beta and I feel that these few lines in no way signal that the devs have looked at it beyond a cursory glance. Every other spear had fewer fatal issues and they've ALL had more space dedicated to them.

Edited August 7 by Malus.2184

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

That's at least something, now, what about everything else?

Due to how Crushing Abyss interacts with Skill 5 rather than am massive finisher it feels like every other skill just exist for its sake. There's also NOTHING about one of the most important topics, namely the range. Is it still in the 600-unit range? If so, the weapon is useless as a ranged weapon. There's also the Auto Attack. is it a chain or still one useless attack?

This was the weapon that by far had the most issues of all the spears in the beta and I feel that these few lines in no way signal that the devs have looked at it beyond a cursory glance. Every other spear had fewer fatal issues and they've ALL had more space dedicated to them.

Lets see how it goes after this on live.

If it works mechanical a lot better, but the range still lacks little bit, that's a lot easier to adjust then making on mechanical lvl suck

Edited August 7 by arazoth.7290

[Uete.3805]

What new condis will it provide though?

I was hoping for something more exotic than burning or bleeding for the rev kit, like poison or confusion. However they could even go with vulnerability or slow...

We'll know in a couple or weeks but I was expecting a longer explanation than what we've got. Also, i would have liked if it got something more interesting than more condis and faster cast times. In any case, the pull is really nice and maybe it ends up being the infernal murder dos weapon its animation suggested.

Fingers crossed.

Edited August 7 by Uete.3805

[arazoth.7290]

35 minutes ago, Uete.3805 said:

What new condis will it provide though?

I was hoping for something more exotic than burning or bleeding for the rev kit, like poison or confusion. However they could even go with vulnerability or slow...

We'll know in a couple or weeks but I was expecting a longer explanation than what we've got. Also, i would have liked if it got something more interesting than more condis and faster cast times. In any case, the pull is really nice and maybe it ends up being the infernal murder dos weapon its animation suggested.

Fingers crossed.

If they want it to work as hybrid for power and condi, both being usefull in builds.

Then poison and vulnerability would be best. Best these 2 added with current torment on skill 5, building up. And vulnerability additional with torment on auto attacks.

Butttttttt.... we will see what they did soon enough I guess 😅. "on paper" it's promising atleast"

[Katary.7096]

On the positive side we have the increase to cast speed on multiple skills (would have been nice to know which ones) and the fact that the CC on skill #4 is now frontloaded. A wider spread on different conditions is a boon for the competitive modes but I fear that this might set the weapon up to be in direct competition with Mace/Axe and Shortbow and I would rather not see a redundant Revenant weapon in the game. After Scepter I have a hard time looking forward to a new weapon.

Unfortunately nothing has been said about range or energy costs on Spear and 3 stacks of Crushing Abyss being the new maximum doesn't mean much if each stack is still only adding 1 stack of torment.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

So far they said nothing in the update like we don't even see any visuals or what they actually plan to do. Just they are speeding it up. Considering what they said about scepter, I am not going to hold my breath.

[DasDaxx.6178]

I really hope they'll change the colours. It being so red-heavy feels disconnected from all other Rev weapons. Especially because the effect are so big.

I forgot one thing: The melee-version of 1 should have gotten a another hit/animation. It feels weird to look at, like something is missing.

Edited August 7 by DasDaxx.6178

[Shagie.7612]

Well, making it faster and ramp faster certainly fixes what made it unfun and weak in PvE.

But I'm still left with the concern of usability in competitive. The energy the weapon demands to use it effectively means that being forced to use a utility skill harms its effectiveness significantly worse than any other weapon and potentially immediately ends its ramp up.

Past that, I'm kinda surprised it didn't get a change to 900 range, and I still don't think it's able to replace mace and shield/axe, so I'm left wondering what the plan is to better differentiate it and shortbow as condi ranged weapons.

I dunno if that means focusing on making one a more defensive option, something sorta like Necro staff (so you can run it + shortbow effectively), or splitting them up into heavier aoe/single target focus so you're more interested in one or the other for teamfighting, dueling/sidenoding/roaming, that kinda stuff.

The changes are good: a better CC, better condi spread, and making faster all directly address the weaknesses the weapon had, and number tuning can more or less mask all of the rest for PvE where you're not as liable to lose your energy to situational gameplay, but I'm still left wondering how it's going to avoid just being in the same spot as shortbow, especially if SB gets slapped like mace did in preparation for scepter.

[Elric.4713]

Of course they didn't increase they range, it's just one thing everyone agreed that should happen and they themselves said they're thinking about it. After the scepter fiasco I think I'm just gonna skip this expansion.

[Jobber.6348]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Past that, I'm kinda surprised it didn't get a change to 900 range, and I still don't think it's able to replace mace and shield/axe, so I'm left wondering what the plan is to better differentiate it and shortbow as condi ranged weapons.

I'm just gonna run Shortbow and Spear for Condi builds in WvW.

Spear is an excellent defensive swap because of its mines evade, making sure you can "put something on the ground" while evading to cover escapes or bait Thieves into offing themselves.

They also mentioned giving it Condition variety and that sounds like more cover conditions which I'm excited to see what they give but I'm hoping Cripple + Poison on Spear 2 and Burning on Spear 3 mines.

In PvE, we have to see just how good against a stationary target new ramped up Abyssal Raze can be vs Shortbow or Mace and swap the lower damage set accordingly.

In conclusion, having a defensive Condi set is all Condi players were praying for Revenant for an insane amount of time for competitive modes. If the cover condition changes are excellent, it would see the rise of Condition builds again as Condi Revenant long suffered from their main condition being Torment be easily cleansed off and nerfed in competitive when the damage dealing was reversed to stationary targets.

 

Edited August 8 by Jobber.6348

[Shagie.7612]

28 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Spear is an excellent defensive swap because of its mines evade, making sure you can "put something on the ground" while evading to cover escapes or bait Thieves into offing themselves.

It's a half second evade vs two mallyx blind finishers, an aegis, and shield 5's channeled block, plus if you're CHerald you get the cleanse trait. You can technically blast finisher for blinds on spear but it's not as useful situationally since it's on your CC button + ground placed spear 5, rather than around yourself and through an upkeep + regular attack.
I'm not sure you can replace mace/shield for condi builds with spear, even with the range advantage.

I think it's much more likely that, with an instant pull for CC, a mobility/evade tool, actual condi spread, a range increase still on the table, and it not being projectile based, you're much more likely to just drop shortbow, assuming the energy costs aren't too onerous.

[Angesombre.4630]

What I remember about the spear with this wonderful beta (irony)

[Jobber.6348]

16 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I think it's much more likely that, with an instant pull for CC, a mobility/evade tool, actual condi spread, a range increase still on the table, and it not being projectile based, you're much more likely to just drop shortbow, assuming the energy costs aren't too onerous.

With the amount of Anti Close combat in competitive these days? Nah I'll go two ranged weapons. I'm so sick of Harbingers and Willbenders and will gladly run two ranged weapons to kite them out rather than have Mace which does more damage yes but struggles immensely hard against opposing Melee powerhouses. Also you run into the odd Condi Macezerker these days too. They're so insanely oppressive on-node or in WvW with Celestial stats in melee combat. 

There's just much more safety in ranged combat than there is in melee combat. 

Edited August 8 by Jobber.6348

[Tammuz.7361]

2 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

What I remember about the spear with this wonderful beta (irony)

this pretty much sums up the spear beta in a nutshell

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Still holding off on prepurchasing this expansion because I am not convinced spear will be decent. Got burned enough with Sceptre; Spear needs range, 600 units does not qualify!

[zallesz.1650]

Has the range been increased? We don't know.

New damage types are not "yaay", they were the absolute bare minimum that was needed to make this weapon anything but useless. Same goes for speed increase. 

Is it less spammy? Yes, but it's whole identity is all about PRESS 5. That's not synergy, that's just uninspired last minute efforts to produce something. Mesmer's spear has a cool mechanic, Engineer's spear has a cool mechanic, Guardian's does, Thief's does, even Ranger's does. The rest fills some longtime lore or gamaplay niches. Revenant spear does NONE of these things. It's a weapon that is outclassed by shortbow or mace. Revenants needed a long-range weapon that hits hard, since the only long-range weapon we have is also useless (hammer). 

Instead we got something that "can" have range, but not much, and you are required to use all skills for it to come alive, but one of them is melee only, so why add the range?

Also, why do we need an additional mechanic? Stack a buff for a weapon to hit for more than a wet noodle? 

Revenant is the ONLY class that has an energy AND cooldown mechanic. We are constantly switching between weapons AND stances. You added another mechanic on top of all of these, when all we wanted was a long-range straightforward weapon? You could have copied the trident skillset and it would have been everything we ever hoped for. 

No, make the most complicated cast even more complicated, but also... weak. 

Thanks. 

[Jobber.6348]

7 hours ago, zallesz.1650 said:

 Revenants needed a long-range weapon that hits hard, since the only long-range weapon we have is also useless (hammer). 

I resent this statement because Hammer has been significantly better since its improvements, one of the few Rev Ws we ever had in a balance patch. It still hits relatively hard in gamemodes that employ it, and in fact it's one of the best competitive weapons available to Revenant. It still has its strong cleaving and even self preservation with Aegis, Anti projectile, an Evade and a CC. 

Could it be better? Definitely. Should Anet just shelve it and introducing a new weapon to compete in the same niche? No. That's just suffocating Revenant's weapon choices. It's much healthier for the entire class as a whole to direct feedback to devs to improving the weapons we have instead of bringing a new one in to replace a bad one. We don't need dead weapons, we need weapons that aren't dead to begin with. 

That being said, Spear has been "improved" according to the Spear report. We need it in our hands to test. I too am not a fan of "ALL YOUR DAMAGE IS PRESS 5" but we have to see how much of a difference this sped up ramp matters. I still think for a weapon that wants to focus on a specific gameplay beat should move the skill from being a 5 button to the auto chain instead. It makes no sense to limit a core mechanic to a castable button. Might as well make every action of your Spear kit buff your auto attack as its main damage output source. 

Edited August 9 by Jobber.6348

[zallesz.1650]

6 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Might as well make every action of your Spear kit buff your auto attack as its main damage output source. 

See that immediately would have made a ton more sense for this weapon? So this is why I don't understand it...  how do the devs come up with the most uninspired weapon (when they literally just made several super cool and inspired ones for other classes)? 

If wr want to have a 'buildup' mechanic, take a look at engi. Their rotation eventually leads to this massive attack with that lightning Spear. This is what buildup means. 

Either do what you mentioned and just make it so that autoattackget buffed, or upon reaching max stacks, flip 4 into a massive single target damage and 5 into a massive aoe damage. To me that would sound like a proper buildup based gameplay with a satisfying finish. 

Using the same abilities but now instead they do more damage is less satisfying. 

And don't get me started on the visuals. This will lock you into the dark red edgy character niche and you'll stay there. No idea why we could not have had the misty grey, subdued tones that have governed Revenant. 

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

That being said, Spear has been "improved" according to the Spear report. We need it in our hands to test. I too am not a fan of "ALL YOUR DAMAGE IS PRESS 5" but we have to see how much of a difference this sped up ramp matters. I still think for a weapon that wants to focus on a specific gameplay beat should move the skill from being a 5 button to the auto chain instead. It makes no sense to limit a core mechanic to a castable button. Might as well make every action of your Spear kit buff your auto attack as its main damage output source. 

Or move it to 2, since that's usually where the spammy DPS skill is located.

I think the intended function is similar to guardian spear - a close range AoE-oriented weapon. Not fond of the mechanics, though.

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Or move it to 2, since that's usually where the spammy DPS skill is located.

I think the intended function is similar to guardian spear - a close range AoE-oriented weapon. Not fond of the mechanics, though.

If the cost is little bit too much it can be lowered still, doesn't matter if it's on button 2 or 5.

Unless they done it already in the lesser notes they show the 20th. I hope it is already done though 🫤

[Angesombre.4630]

The problem is that you get the impression that everything has been put into the visuals of the spear and nothing into the gameplay, the same goes for the scepter.

[Jobber.6348]

10 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

If the cost is little bit too much it can be lowered still, doesn't matter if it's on button 2 or 5.

Unless they done it already in the lesser notes they show the 20th. I hope it is already done though 🫤

The reason why it feels like it costs so much is because they designed the weapon without considering the fact that Revenant utilities also tax the same pool of Energy. 

When an entire weapon kit demands constant energy expenditure, you have a Kalla situation on your hands again with being forced to ration Energy solely on one portion of your kit. That's just straight up anti Revenant design which values Energy management as a whole. 

The energy costs on paper looks "fine" but in actuality, if you are forced to cast a 10 Energy skill in rapid succession, you're already out of Energy within 3 seconds of Combat considering you still want to use Legend stance skills. That's why I said that it would be more sensible if Abyssal Raze skill was the Spear 1 skill, a skill with no Energy cost or inherent cooldown since it starts low damage and ramps up over time anyway. 

This is what should be done: 

Crushing Abyss now stacks to 10, now empowers Abyssal Strike (Spear 1) 

Abyssal Strike: You throw your spear at your enemy (900 range) Stacks of Crushing Abyss causes Abyssal Strike to inflict increased damage and Torment stacks. 

Abyssal Force: Hurl your weapon at a foe. Inflicts area damage and conditions (not torment). Grants 1 stack of Crushing Abyss per enemy struck.

Abyssal Blitz: Dash and Evade, leaving mines behind. Enemies triggering these mines will be inflicted with Conditions, granting Crushing Abyss per mine detonated.

Abyssal Blot: Pulls foes in, dealing damage. Gain Crushing Abyss for each enemy hit by the final pulse of this skill. 

Abyssal Raze: Consume up to 5 stacks of Crushing Abyss instead of Energy. Charges at your target with ferocity, dealing increased damage and Conditions per stack of Crushing Abyss consumed to cast this skill. 
 

Edited August 10 by Jobber.6348