Please consider those changes to stealth playing

[Eclipsiste.3251]

I'm not against stealth in the game, unlike the ridiculous mobility and all advantages willbenders have, being an efficient thief requires more than pressing one button to obtain powerful effects. I've never been able to be such an efficient thief though

That said, there are a few problems with stealth that I think should get addressed...

First a thief should not be able to bombard an opponent with condis, bringing said opponent in combat mode, without getting himself in combat or while staying stealthed. This is too powerful a mechanic. I've seen too many thieves playing like this: powerful perma condi on the enemy while staying stealthed almost all the time. Condis tics should count towards damaging the enemy and therefore remove stealth, at least at an interval.

Stealthed stomp should be impossible. I know this won't be a popular suggestion, but again it is a too powerful and very unbalanced ability. Anet made the right move when removing the possibility to anti-tag while stealthed, to me this falls under the same category: an ability that has no real counter and from a balancing pov an ability without counter should not exist.

[Dawdler.8521]

There is literally one skill that make stealth OP. 

It hasnt seen a nerf since 2014.

Guess how much Anet is interested in fixing anything about it.

[Hotride.2187]

I've barely fought a condi-on-steal condi thieves. You are right, it is pretty obnoxious to fight. Maybe there is more of it now, I have no idea. Like over an year ago I barely fought thieves on this build. They are quite unkillable though.

Stealth stomp is only an issue when combined with shadowstep. I feel porting should interrupt the stomp animation instead. You are meant to be exposed while stomping, with the benefit of killing the down. Stealth alone means anyone can cleave on the down and nuke the thief out of existence. With the port though, and stealth so you cant see the stomp animation, it gets hairy to time an interrupt right. You have to rely on having seen when the stomp started (not always the case) and memory of the timing.

Edited Sunday at 10:32 AM by Hotride.2187

[felincyriac.5981]

idk about this 'effort' required to be efficient on thief, pistol 5 > dodge, isn't that much harder than wb tbh...

 

 

[Netrizhul.3429]

I love WoW's approach on this. You are stealthed, when you are revealed (aka in combat) you cannot re-stealth unless you spend your 5m(was 10 before) cd. There is no hide and seek DURING combat. There is no uber teleport abilities just let you jump from one planet to another with heart content. In this game a competent thief can dance around 5 people without getting caught thanks to stealth. Oh did I mentioned that your stealth instantly broken in wow when you take damage?

[bq pd.2148]

38 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Stealth stomp is only an issue when combined with shadowstep. I feel porting should interrupt the stomp animation instead. You are meant to be exposed while stomping, with the benefit of killing the down. Stealth alone means anyone can cleave on the down and nuke the thief out of existence. With the port though, and stealth so you cant see the stomp animation, it gets hairy to time an interrupt right. You have to rely on having seen when the stomp started (not always the case) and memory of the timing.

in group fights stomping is most often an unnecessary risk and takes too much time.
if the thief is fighting 1 vs X, with or without stealth they cannot delay the stomp after a down much as just pressing F is without traits almost as fast as a stomp. personally if i try to stomp 1 vs X i usually regret that i didnt just cleave instead.
so if i do stealth stomp it is mostly after 1 vs 1 fights to save time and i can just use blind or shadowstep instead - either way if people make an effort to avoid a stomp once while there isnt even anyone near to help them, they are to bleed out.

that being said, i dont't see how stealth stomp is an issue in a game were people just stab, invuln, block or in mirage case evade stomp.

3 hours ago, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

First a thief should not be able to bombard an opponent with condis, bringing said opponent in combat mode, without getting himself in combat or while staying stealthed. This is too powerful a mechanic. I've seen too many thieves playing like this: powerful perma condi on the enemy while staying stealthed almost all the time. Condis tics should count towards damaging the enemy and therefore remove stealth, at least at an interval.

personally i would prefer my conditions on the enemy to end the moment i stealth instead of them revealing me.
edit: applying conditions does put anyone in combat, but the target of the conditions remains in combat as long as they do have conditions on them, while the one applying can run out of range to get OOC.

Edited Sunday at 11:12 AM by bq pd.2148

[felincyriac.5981]

can we also make stealth attacks reveal the thief on use? Give it the rifle treatment. They should be revealed even if the atk is dodged etc.

[Codename T.2847]

7 hours ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

can we also make stealth attacks reveal the thief on use? Give it the rifle treatment. They should be revealed even if the atk is dodged etc.

Yep, backstab revealing the thief right before it stabs would be great to allow for players to counterplay. The current counterplay to DP thief, if your class doesn't have revealed, is to just hit the air lmao (or die if you're mesmer...) Implementing either this OR whiffed stealth attacks revealing the thief would be great! (having both would kinda screw over thieves tho ngl) 

[MaLong.2079]

The first rule of GW2 is: You do not talk about thief!

[kash.9213]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:18 AM, Codename T.2847 said:

Yep, backstab revealing the thief right before it stabs would be great to allow for players to counterplay. The current counterplay to DP thief, if your class doesn't have revealed, is to just hit the air lmao (or die if you're mesmer...) Implementing either this OR whiffed stealth attacks revealing the thief would be great! (having both would kinda screw over thieves tho ngl) 

See how things feel after they match WvW Revealed to SPvP before either of those changes maybe. 

I don't think Anet will change Stealth play drastically, or they could make it more about impactful approaches and masking travel and have visual indicators at least hinting at directional intent at least after combat is engaged and up close. The proximity transparency going in and out from Age of Conan seemed to work well and made sense except in that game it involved lighting also. 

For now, it kind of needs a treatment similar to what boon up keep needs in that there really shouldn't be so much under the hood with traits or whatever to extend and promote time in stealth and it should be more about approach or costly or long cooldown clutch moves. I don't think stealth is as strong and sturdy as people think though considering how people largely don't play the map as much as they're supposed to as if it were part of their build. There's no reason any group of people should stand in the same location allowing a thief to dance around them like someone mentioned above when they could drag them to line of site and map objects that will be more in their favor, which there will be plenty more of on our maps. 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 9/15/2024 at 12:52 AM, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

First a thief should not be able to bombard an opponent with condis, bringing said opponent in combat mode, without getting himself in combat or while staying stealthed.

I feel like this a problem in general. (not just thieves) where you can condi people up and break combat yourself. OOC'ing in general is generally too big of an advantage in combat.

I think if you break combat, the condis you applied should be of much reduced duration.

It sometimes even happens if I kite too far away especially if it's a team fight; it's not even that far and I OOC and heal to full even on not as mobile classes. It's such a massive advantage.

Maybe they should make healing while OOC outside of a friendly tower/keep/spawn much slower while you can still wp/mount. 

Edited Thursday at 09:33 PM by ArchonWing.9480

[Kulvar.1239]

On 9/15/2024 at 1:06 PM, Netrizhul.3429 said:

I love WoW's approach on this. You are stealthed, when you are revealed (aka in combat) you cannot re-stealth unless you spend your 5m(was 10 before) cd. There is no hide and seek DURING combat. There is no uber teleport abilities just let you jump from one planet to another with heart content. In this game a competent thief can dance around 5 people without getting caught thanks to stealth. Oh did I mentioned that your stealth instantly broken in wow when you take damage?

Vanish is a 2 minutes now.

Stealth should be Thief F3.

And smoke combo should do something else.
Smoke + Blast = AoE blind.
Smoke + Leap = smoke aura (attacks from 600 range or more miss you).

[Kulvar.1239]

59 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

See how things feel after they match WvW Revealed to SPvP before either of those changes maybe. 

It'll do nothing at all. They wait for stealth to expire, then attack without getting revealed in the first place.

[Leaa.2943]

On 9/15/2024 at 9:52 AM, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

I'm not against stealth in the game, unlike the ridiculous mobility and all advantages willbenders have, being an efficient thief requires more than pressing one button to obtain powerful effects. I've never been able to be such an efficient thief though

That said, there are a few problems with stealth that I think should get addressed...

First a thief should not be able to bombard an opponent with condis, bringing said opponent in combat mode, without getting himself in combat or while staying stealthed. This is too powerful a mechanic. I've seen too many thieves playing like this: powerful perma condi on the enemy while staying stealthed almost all the time. Condis tics should count towards damaging the enemy and therefore remove stealth, at least at an interval.

Stealthed stomp should be impossible. I know this won't be a popular suggestion, but again it is a too powerful and very unbalanced ability. Anet made the right move when removing the possibility to anti-tag while stealthed, to me this falls under the same category: an ability that has no real counter and from a balancing pov an ability without counter should not exist.

What i find strange is that in the history of this game we had the trap ghost thiefs plauging wvw. Video for referense.  And the thief could kill you without even get unstealthed. This resulted in a lot of anger, and post to Arena Net about how dumb this is that you can attack someone in stealth without even getting out of stealth. In the end Anet agreed and changed it so that the thief unstealthed when somone took damage from their trap. Which is way more fair play and the ghost thiefs vannished. 

And now they added this again where they can sit in stealth whilst doing damage and rank up stacks of conditions. Why did it become ok again when this was removed in the past because it was just dumb gameplay?

 

Edited Thursday at 10:06 PM by Leaa.2943
removed a double word

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

It'll do nothing at all. They wait for stealth to expire, then attack without getting revealed in the first place.

Then they have to wait. That would be a positive for the other player. What you described sounds like how it's supposed to work

[Mike.3196]

On 9/15/2024 at 12:52 AM, Eclipsiste.3251 said:

I'm not against stealth in the game, unlike the ridiculous mobility and all advantages willbenders have, being an efficient thief requires more than pressing one button to obtain powerful effects. I've never been able to be such an efficient thief though

That said, there are a few problems with stealth that I think should get addressed...

First a thief should not be able to bombard an opponent with condis, bringing said opponent in combat mode, without getting himself in combat or while staying stealthed. This is too powerful a mechanic. I've seen too many thieves playing like this: powerful perma condi on the enemy while staying stealthed almost all the time. Condis tics should count towards damaging the enemy and therefore remove stealth, at least at an interval.

Stealthed stomp should be impossible. I know this won't be a popular suggestion, but again it is a too powerful and very unbalanced ability. Anet made the right move when removing the possibility to anti-tag while stealthed, to me this falls under the same category: an ability that has no real counter and from a balancing pov an ability without counter should not exist.

They just to fix SA and thief is balanced  and stealth stomp isn't op if you think it is player skill issue 

[Sleepwalker.1398]

No spec needs 3 dodges or sit on rifle and just press 2 all day.

[Anekto.8391]

10 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

For now, it kind of needs a treatment similar to what boon up keep needs in that there really shouldn't be so much under the hood with traits or whatever to extend and promote time in stealth and it should be more about approach or costly or long cooldown clutch moves. I don't think stealth is as strong and sturdy as people think though considering how people largely don't play the map as much as they're supposed to as if it were part of their build. There's no reason any group of people should stand in the same location allowing a thief to dance around them like someone mentioned above when they could drag them to line of site and map objects that will be more in their favor, which there will be plenty more of on our maps. 

I dont want to put words into your mouth but are you saying we are supposed to not play open field because thief is very oppressive in open field and we should hide in towers or gate surf/dive around?

[Anekto.8391]

12 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

And smoke combo should do something else.
Smoke + Blast = AoE blind.
Smoke + Leap = smoke aura (attacks from 600 range or more miss you).

I like the idea that stealth(you cant see me!) could be reworked to the fact that blind is actually making someone not see anything! It somehow makes sense or is close meaningfully.

One way to add to this would be like if you use "stealth" you will still be there and targetable but you ve a miss counter on you. So attacks will miss you. Its like a reverse aegis boon. Theres already traits like i think instant reflexes and the tricks elite making 100% evade. It offers much more insight into enemy gameplay so you can play around it and interact with the other player in a more meaningful way.

Edited 16 hours ago by Anekto.8391
more meaningful

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

It'll do nothing at all. They wait for stealth to expire, then attack without getting revealed in the first place.

They already do it in d/p

Pistol 5, targeted HS. Pistol 5 wait until stealth runs out, targeted HS, rinse and repeat. With good timing thief is visible for less than half  second at time, the entire fight.

Edited 16 hours ago by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Dawdler.8521]

22 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

They already do it in d/p

Pistol 5, targeted HS. Pistol 5 wait until stealth runs out, targeted HS, rinse and repeat. With good timing thief is visible for less than half  second at time, the entire fight.

And yet it’s a 50/50 ”confused” split on the post I made way above.

I mean we know why thieves are ”confused”. They all know exactly why it’s stupid and why it’s broken just as all the rest of us, they just can’t stand the thought that they could loose it. 

And apparently Anet accepts that.

Edited 15 hours ago by Dawdler.8521

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Anekto.8391 said:

I like the idea that stealth(you cant see me!) could be reworked to the fact that blind is actually making someone not see anything! It somehow makes sense or is close meaningfully.

Ouuh and an AoE blind means everyones screen goes out for 3 seconds 😄

yes pls.

 

 

PS: extrapoint if the thief blinds himself too

Edited 14 hours ago by CafPow.1542

[Anekto.8391]

18 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

PS: extrapoint if the thief blinds himself too

So its like group pinata play! The real pinata meta shifting to wvw 🙂

 

But seems when thief goes stealth we are already blindly hitting the air and throwing fists around in hopes of hitting them. Not so far from reality already!

Edited 14 hours ago by Anekto.8391

[ilMasa.2546]

I think Gw2 is THE mmorpg with the worst stealth system applied to a class in the history of mmorpgs.
Someone already mentioned it, rogue stealth in WoW is implemented honestly: it gives you the initial tactical advantage of positioning, but once you're in combat you have to use a major cooldown to get back into it.
But not only that: a rogue, a feral druid or a nightelf in shadowmelt had that 3 second window in which they appeared transparent and allowed you to react if you were fast enough.
You literally heard the sound of stealth on and off and so even if you couldn't see it you knew there was someone stealthed around you.
This is why i say it was an honest mechanic.

One game that implemented a very good stealth mechanic, IMO, was Archeage.
It was a stealth that worked by proximity and direction so If you were invisible and you approached another player:

- from the front, you were seen from kinda far away
- from the sides you were seen mid range
- from behind you were seen at melee range.

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by ilMasa.2546

[Anekto.8391]

34 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

One game that implemented a very good stealth mechanic, IMO, was Archeage.
It was a stealth that worked by proximity and direction so If you were invisible and you approached another player:

I think some difference is that stealth as a mechanic is already a complete world on its own but with the thief spec it also makes skills different and hit harder so its like a minigame the class relies on to proc as much in play as possibile.

 

But needing to enter the stealth buff so much adds to the fact that as you point out stealth on its own is recognized in many games as leaning on game breaking and needs extra adjust and careful consideration. And in gw2 the devs seems to have thought "Stealth? ofc! And all the time!"

If stealth was an ingredient it would be salt and i would be the dish and i would be too salty.

And wvw would probably reach ocean lvls.