Some of my thoughts and feelings.

[Nimon.7840]

@Sephylon.4938 said:I'd much prefer having traits that give bonuses while below the health threshold, encouraging risk taking to get payoffs. Just some ideas anet will ignore:Foot in the Grave – While below the health threshold, gain bonus to critical-hit chance.Spiteful Wishes – Deal increased damage to foes with no boons. Damage bonus is increased while you are below the health threshold.Strength of the Undead – Deal more damage while your health is lower than your life force.Last Grasp – Deal more damage based on your missing health.Close to Death – Deal bonus damage to foes below the health threshold. Damage bonus is doubled if you are below the health threshold.

No pls not. Thats awful and again that doesnt encourge teamplay with necromancers

[Lahmia.2193]

@Sephylon.4938 said:I'd much prefer having traits that give bonuses while below the health threshold, encouraging risk taking to get payoffs. Just some ideas anet will ignore:Foot in the Grave – While below the health threshold, gain bonus to critical-hit chance.Spiteful Wishes – Deal increased damage to foes with no boons. Damage bonus is increased while you are below the health threshold.Strength of the Undead – Deal more damage while your health is lower than your life force.Last Grasp – Deal more damage based on your missing health.Close to Death – Deal bonus damage to foes below the health threshold. Damage bonus is doubled if you are below the health threshold.

Good I hope Anet ignores them.

[Galmac.4680]

ANet will ignore all of this.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

Well, the debuffing aspect is a design problem as long as debuffing is meaningless in the biggest area of the game (PvE)

But it's not meaningless. Optimal dps still need 25 vuln stacks. Some professions still need to find a specific condition applyed on the boss/mob to do their job optimaly. It's just that you don't need (and it's a relief because you shouldn't specifically need) a necromancer to apply those conditions.

Congrats, you can put conditions on things to satisfy Requirement X of Class Y. Do those conditions actually mean anything? Nope, because the Defiance bar is a thing.

Literally the ONLY non-damaging condition in the game that works on bosses (the only things worth debuffing in the first place) is Vulnerability, which is capped by accident in group settings (because what people use to accomplish other goals also happens to put it out).

But the only enemies you can debuff in PvE are ones you really don't care about. Those you want to debuff, you can't.

Drarnor, as much as I don't like how conditions work in PvE:

• Vulnerability is not meaningles and even required. (1 condition).
• All damaging condition do their job and they do it pretty well. (5 conditions)
• Blind, chill, cripple, fear, taunt, immobilize, slow and maybe weakness deal damage to this very breakbar that you talk about. (8 conditions)

Yes, the effect feel "poor" but it does have a purpose when you play and that's enough to not be meaningless.

Additionnally, regardless of any break bar:

• The weaver gain crit chance on weakened foes
• Rangers deal increased damage against foes that are affected by movement impariring conditions
• The necromancer have an increased crit rate based on how many conditions are on it's foes
• The necromancer also receive less damage from poisoned foes.
• The reaper deal more damage to foes affected by chill
• The reaper apply bleed when he chill a foe.
• Guardians have increase crit chance against burning foes.
• Dragonhunter deal more damage on crippled foes.
• Thieves deal more damage if the foe have a condition. Some of the thieve weapon also deal more damage against crippled foes.
• Weakened enemies deal less damage on the dardevil
• Engineers have increased crit chance on bleeding foes and deal more damage for each different condition on it's foe.
• Chronomancer have increased critical chance against slowed foes.
• Taunted foes deal less damage to revenant.

And I probably miss some of the available effects. There are even some runes that take advantage of conditions on your foes. So no, Conditions are not meaningless. You can say that the necromancer is meaningless in it's debuffing niche due to other professions being able to easily fill in the conditions needed (and I'd gladly agree with you) but conditions are not meaningless, they all have a purpose and all have the potential to benefit your allies.

Eddit: and one last thing, You can fix coonditions so that they do their full effect on the PvE boss, this is not something that will make the necromancer welcome in raid. Fixing the condition issue would be meaningless for the necromancer.

[Dezember.1295]

@"Vanlong.1627" said:I think the devs don't boost the damage because necromancers are "the guys who never die". Which is why they "can't" give them more damage.

^^^^^^^ This. No profession in the entire game has the survivability that the necromancer does. In full zerker / yassith they still get loads of shield (if scourge) or a shroud (if reaper). They are well known to be one of the easiest (along with ranger) in regular open world PvE. It wouldnt be fair to give them the damage the ele has, because the ele dies if you look at them the wrong way and they struggle hardcore in fracts without defensive stats or a babysitting druid / crono. You either get survivability or damage, you can't have both. Unless you're a warrior xd Necromancer got the survivability. Am I hoping to see an alternative spec like the one Vanlong described? Absolutely. I am all for giving different professions different types of gameplay. Nobody wanna see an elite spec that is just like the previous one but better numbers. That's pointless. That is why I feel kinda sorry for elementalists. What did they get? Another glass cannon spec, yey. I sincerely hope that they find an elite specs that allows necromancer to sacrifice their tankiness for damage - if they wish.

[Axl.8924]

@Dezember.1295 said:

@"Vanlong.1627" said:I think the devs don't boost the damage because necromancers are "the guys who never die". Which is why they "can't" give them more damage.

^^^^^^^ This. No profession in the entire game has the survivability that the necromancer does. In full zerker / yassith they still get loads of shield (if scourge) or a shroud (if reaper). They are well known to be one of the easiest (along with ranger) in regular open world PvE. It wouldnt be fair to give them the damage the ele has, because the ele dies if you look at them the wrong way and they struggle hardcore in fracts without defensive stats or a babysitting druid / crono. You either get survivability or damage, you can't have both. Unless you're a warrior xd Necromancer got the survivability. Am I hoping to see an alternative spec like the one Vanlong described? Absolutely. I am all for giving different professions different types of gameplay. Nobody wanna see an elite spec that is just like the previous one but better numbers. That's pointless. That is why I feel kinda sorry for elementalists. What did they get? Another glass cannon spec, yey. I sincerely hope that they find an elite specs that allows necromancer to sacrifice their tankiness for damage - if they wish.

They did it was called scourge.Scourge sacrificed shroud for damage and some support, but then the dmg got nerfed so it was made full support, then the support was nerfed and now they got a shield of 6k health barrier and vampire drain thingy.

[Galmac.4680]

... A shield with some delay...

[Anchoku.8142]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:That was well written, Lily.

The problem with Necromancer is that it was designed to be a debuffer in a game where debuffing in PvE has little value. That, alone, makes the profession impossible to balance. The fact that any profession can perform the same function but instead focuses most effort in build on dps or other types of support is telling.

A complete redesign is required. Reaper and Scourge are evidence of limited effort toward that goal but still preserve core skills and traits. Core Necromancer and all of its skills, traits, and special mechanics require a vast rework to eliminate both the heavy debuffing focus and shroud mechanic.

To start, I would create a major split between game modes for all Necromancer builds and balance them separately until a full profession rework is complete.

I disagree that the debuffing aspect of necromancer is the problem with its design. I've mentioned for years that the problem is shroud. And shroud needs a complete redesign or to be replaced entirely while all the skills need the same. What's needed for the necromancer isn't a medium change like the mesmer just got, but a major one. More than 90% of the necromancers skills need to be looked at and changed.

Well, the debuffing aspect is a design problem as long as debuffing is meaningless in the biggest area of the game (PvE)

But it's not meaningless. Optimal dps still need 25 vuln stacks. Some professions still need to find a specific condition applyed on the boss/mob to do their job optimaly. It's just that you don't need (and it's a relief because you shouldn't specifically need) a necromancer to apply those conditions.

Congrats, you can put conditions on things to satisfy Requirement X of Class Y. Do those conditions actually mean anything? Nope, because the Defiance bar is a thing.

Literally the ONLY non-damaging condition in the game that works on bosses (the only things worth debuffing in the first place) is Vulnerability, which is capped by accident in group settings (because what people use to accomplish other goals also happens to put it out).

But the only enemies you can debuff in PvE are ones you really don't care about. Those you want to debuff, you can't.

I agree wholeheartedly and the design gets worse if you account for the following point.

Debuffing is intentionally weak in PvE but it is a core part of Necromancer's sustain in PvP and value in WvW. Necro and its elite specializations all count on debuffing for its survivability, shroud or not. Weakness, blind, chill, poison, cripple, fear, torment; all of these conditions, and corruption, are crucial for defense and part of the balance calculations.

[Kaiser.9873]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Galmac.4680" said:That's totally wrong, why sacrify health for things that other classes just have. Warriors won't die if played good, ranger won't die because they use longbow and their pet. But we have to "pay" for any damage?

Rangers don't die because they have a longbow and their pet,. but if they use their longbow and their pet their damage is considerably less than it would be if they were using different weapons from a closer range. I play both Necro and Ranger,. though I'm better at ranger. Rangers choose between survivability and doing damage quite frequently. If you want to do more damage, you have to be less survivable.

Seriously? Rangers pewpew hard with Longbow from 1500 range with nearly no risk. Like warriors? Warriors hit very hard with no tradeoff, or self-debuffs. What other class has to pay by debuffing itself to do more damage? What other class trades as much damage for survivability as necro? Necro has virtually no escapability once committed. So it's either kill or die, and all the time you have to aid you opponent by damaging yourself.

[Vayne.8563]

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Galmac.4680" said:That's totally wrong, why sacrify health for things that other classes just have. Warriors won't die if played good, ranger won't die because they use longbow and their pet. But we have to "pay" for any damage?

Rangers don't die because they have a longbow and their pet,. but if they use their longbow and their pet their damage is considerably less than it would be if they were using different weapons from a closer range. I play both Necro and Ranger,. though I'm better at ranger. Rangers choose between survivability and doing damage quite frequently. If you want to do more damage, you have to be less survivable.

Seriously? Rangers pewpew hard with Longbow from 1500 range with nearly no risk. Like warriors? Warriors hit very hard with no tradeoff, or self-debuffs. What other class has to pay by debuffing itself to do more damage? What other class trades as much damage for survivability as necro? Necro has virtually no escapability once committed. So it's either kill or die, and all the time you have to aid you opponent by damaging yourself.

Warriors have a longbow that works really really well, particularly if you're specced for condi. Source, my warrior is specced for condi and I hit really really well on it. Warrior doesn't have to equal melee. The problem with staying at range is any end game content (the only thing that matters for builds anyway) is that not everything works stays at range and it can be quite easy to die at range. Some bosses target the further person away. You try to get two far away in most of the Desolation and you've aggroed a bunch of stuff that you don't want aggroed. This is a very very simplistic analysis of what I said, but yeah I agree it works fine in core Tyria.

Edit: I should point out that we're we're talking specs and damage, most rangers today doing any kind of content where build matters would be condi rangers and wouldn't use a long bow at all.

[stone cold.8609]

OP, if it makes you feel any better all of the classes that I play have been significantly nerfed at one time or another in my 5 years of playing this game. It is frustrating and demoralizing, especially when you spent time, money, and effort to achieve a level of proficiency on the build. Since I am a PvE only player, the reason that typically is given is that the build is OP in either WvW or PvP or that the players were playing not as how the developers envisioned. IMO, neither of these are valid excuses. Truely split the balance between game modes - really, the players won't be confused by this. Congratulate the players on finding new creative ways to play (as long as the TOS isn't being violated) and blend your vision of the game with this real game feedback.

In most games of this genre that I've played, I have 1 or 2 main characters and a couple of alts for grins. However, in this game I have no main characters - I have 5 classes that I play. Not because I want to play 5 classes, but at any given time at least 2 of them are no longer fun for me to play due to "balancing" nerfs and I park them and wait for the next round of "balancing" to see what will be changed this time. I learned this the hard way when the game first came out and my main was nerfed into oblivion after a few months due to PvP/WvW complaints.

After all these years, I know to expect this from the game and just try to roll with it. There will be a point when I will no longer be willing to adapt and then I'll quit the game.

[Lily.1935]

@"stone cold.8609" said:OP, if it makes you feel any better all of the classes that I play have been significantly nerfed at one time or another in my 5 years of playing this game. It is frustrating and demoralizing, especially when you spent time, money, and effort to achieve a level of proficiency on the build. Since I am a PvE only player, the reason that typically is given is that the build is OP in either WvW or PvP or that the players were playing not as how the developers envisioned. IMO, neither of these are valid excuses. Truely split the balance between game modes - really, the players won't be confused by this. Congratulate the players on finding new creative ways to play (as long as the TOS isn't being violated) and blend your vision of the game with this real game feedback.

In most games of this genre that I've played, I have 1 or 2 main characters and a couple of alts for grins. However, in this game I have no main characters - I have 5 classes that I play. Not because I want to play 5 classes, but at any given time at least 2 of them are no longer fun for me to play due to "balancing" nerfs and I park them and wait for the next round of "balancing" to see what will be changed this time. I learned this the hard way when the game first came out and my main was nerfed into oblivion after a few months due to PvP/WvW complaints.

After all these years, I know to expect this from the game and just try to roll with it. There will be a point when I will no longer be willing to adapt and then I'll quit the game.

Except the necromancer has been the absolute worst profession in PvE since the game's release date. And has been a major problem profession in WvW for just as long. We get short blips of time to shine in PvE that last sometimes less than a month before being the absolute worst again. This isn't about the nerf. Its about neglect and how the profession feels bad to play. The scourge, which felt great to use before the patch now is a slog to use. it is not FUN to play. And because necromancer is still the worst profession in PvE we are in a situation were not only are we the worst, we aren't fun to use.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

In my opinion, Necro as a class in general has had their ups and downs.Depending on your preferred game mode, there were times when we were competitive and times when we were sidelined (more often the later).I think I've reached a stage where I stopped being competitive and am having a lot more fun now.My advise would be to enjoy the moment, enjoy the game, enjoy your favorite class and not mind whether it is 'meta' or 'accepted' by others.

[Swing.6439]

I wish I could give this post like 500 thumbs up so it would get more attention. Thank you so much for writing this, it feels really good to know I'm not alone.

[Neil.3825]

Well they juste have to create a trait name like hum..."Blood Sacrifice" : -33% vitality and shroud, +33%DPS (for exemple, you can modify values)Necro fixed.

I don't think necro need lot of changes, just a tool to sacrifice survival for more DPS.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

If it's Lily we can be sure we'll agree only on the vaguest of things. No difference this time.Necro is in a undesireble, last spot for raids, and suffers from a lot of balance issues.'

That being said, i'm in totally different camp from OP.

• core necro needs love - death shroud is 2012 design that doesn't have half the synergy, fun and power offered by reaper's or scourge's mechanics.
• gutting reaper's life force degen was a HUGE mistake. Reaper's very identity is based on long shroud uptimes (so he can heal back up in shroud while being nearly impervious to movement impairment condies, being the unstoppable movie monster he's supposed to be). The choice of "less sustain for more damage" should be player's to make (like a trait that offers more % damage for harsher degen), but not enforced on us without our say so.
• scourge nerfs (save nefarious favor) are understandable to me. With new barrier being actually viable, the cheapness of shades needed toning down and more counterplay.That said there's still a lot left to balance here.

TL;DR; Necro needs love, but scourge shades are last things to bitch about. There's abysmall core necro dps and shroud, movie monster turned squish reaper, and scourge being too oppressive on point while too vulnerable in open field and far too inferior to be true support spec vs other end - game supports such as druid, water ele or chrono.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:> * gutting reaper's life force degen was a HUGE mistake. Reaper's very identity is based on long shroud uptimes (so he can heal back up in shroud while being nearly impervious to movement impairment condies, being the unstoppable movie monster he's supposed to be). The choice of "less sustain for more damage" should be player's to make (like a trait that offers more % damage for harsher degen), but not enforced on us without our say so.

This, one million times this! Give Reaper the choice and allow players to finally "Play the way they want to Play"! How is it the player base can break things down this simply but developers cannot?

[Lily.1935]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:If it's Lily we can be sure we'll agree only on the vaguest of things. No difference this time.Necro is in a undesireble, last spot for raids, and suffers from a lot of balance issues.'

That being said, i'm in totally different camp from OP.

• core necro needs love - death shroud is 2012 design that doesn't have half the synergy, fun and power offered by reaper's or scourge's mechanics.
• gutting reaper's life force degen was a HUGE mistake. Reaper's very identity is based on long shroud uptimes (so he can heal back up in shroud while being nearly impervious to movement impairment condies, being the unstoppable movie monster he's supposed to be). The choice of "less sustain for more damage" should be player's to make (like a trait that offers more % damage for harsher degen), but not enforced on us without our say so.
• scourge nerfs (save nefarious favor) are understandable to me. With new barrier being actually viable, the cheapness of shades needed toning down and more counterplay.That said there's still a lot left to balance here.

TL;DR; Necro needs love, but scourge shades are last things to kitten about. There's abysmall core necro dps and shroud, movie monster turned squish reaper, and scourge being too oppressive on point while too vulnerable in open field and far too inferior to be true support spec vs other end - game supports such as druid, water ele or chrono.

We aren't in a different camp. The only part we disagree on is scourge. In which case I do think the nerf without compensating pve is wrong. I don't care about the pvp side it has devastated us in pve. And we still don't have anything to show for it. We don't have the damage or support even on what is still our best spec.

[stormwings.8329]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:> * gutting reaper's life force degen was a

HUGE

mistake. Reaper's very identity is based on long shroud uptimes (so he can heal back up in shroud while being nearly impervious to movement impairment condies, being the unstoppable movie monster he's supposed to be). The choice of "less sustain for more damage" should be player's to make (like a trait that offers more % damage for harsher degen), but not enforced on us without our say so.

This, one million times this! Give Reaper the choice and allow players to finally "Play the way they want to Play"! How is it the player base can break things down this simply but developers cannot?

Maybe cos they dont play the game like us...When theres a dev in wvw hes there with his anet tag and that you think the other zerg will do? just focus him like no tomorrow . Do you even think that the dev realy know if a shade bomb on wall is worse of a couple of ele meteor? They saw lot of shade on the wall (cos there are 15-20 times more necro than ele in wvw) so they think that they need to nerf the shade (without write anything on patch note). Same things on open field. There are so many shades that its obvious that you will die if you dont dodge outside very fast but 1 shade cant istant down a player. 2 scourge with a shade bomb will not ista kill a target while 2 CoR will easily down the same guy and the cd on CoR is 4s...They put that kitten pulsing aoe on shade but still bad player are standing in it while the good one were moving outside even before the patch. Actually the only things that the pulsing is doing is killing fps and ppl eyes.Btw if you think that they nerfed F2 to only 1 condi -> boon on a "heavy support" class (their word not ours) that alone will explain how much dev dont know what to do.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:If it's Lily we can be sure we'll agree only on the vaguest of things. No difference this time.Necro is in a undesireble, last spot for raids, and suffers from a lot of balance issues.'

That being said, i'm in totally different camp from OP.

• core necro needs love - death shroud is 2012 design that doesn't have half the synergy, fun and power offered by reaper's or scourge's mechanics.
• gutting reaper's life force degen was a
  HUGE
  mistake. Reaper's very identity is based on long shroud uptimes (so he can heal back up in shroud while being nearly impervious to movement impairment condies, being the unstoppable movie monster he's supposed to be). The choice of "less sustain for more damage" should be player's to make (like a trait that offers more % damage for harsher degen), but not enforced on us without our say so.
• scourge nerfs (save nefarious favor) are understandable to me. With new barrier being actually viable, the cheapness of shades needed toning down and more counterplay.That said there's still a lot left to balance here.

TL;DR; Necro needs love, but scourge shades are last things to kitten about. There's abysmall core necro dps and shroud, movie monster turned squish reaper, and scourge being too oppressive on point while too vulnerable in open field and far too inferior to be true support spec vs other end - game supports such as druid, water ele or chrono.

We aren't in a different camp. The only part we disagree on is scourge. In which case I do think the nerf without compensating pve is wrong. I don't care about the pvp side it has devastated us in pve. And we still don't have anything to show for it. We don't have the damage or support even on what is still our best spec.

I'd have to argue that the problem is more or less that encounter design in "high-end" PvE does not reflect that of the other game modes whatsoever or play into the scourges strengths, while its simplistic design always caters to maximizing DPS and optimizing from there.

Prior to these changes, the scourge was astronomically busted in the PvP formats. So much so that it was a meme where people were literally playing with their faces, blindfolded, and all sorts of weirdness pretty much just mashing their keyboards and winning fights. It had a few counters, but not many. And to be totally honest, it's still overpowered. There's a build out there which runs 100% shroud uptime with constant corrupts, CC, and DoT's for several thousand damage every second to everything in melee. Especially when you hit WvW with Dire/TB gear, it's really disgusting.

You say you don't care about PvP and WvW, but I don't care about PvE. I haven't touched a raid, done TD from HoT, or even done LS3 and have not started PoF's story because players like myself give absolutely zero regard to PvE whatsoever. When something that completely busted emerges, it kills any semblance of fun for every other player.

The thing about tons of skill splits is that it makes things so much more difficult to manage. PvE values end up in the Guild Arena which ends up having things like Blurred Frenzy hitting for 30k and not being addressed. Skill functionality changes confuse people and the bulk majority of players which split their time between formats end up getting way different results than they'd expect. The developers then need to spend time trying to fix balance issues with multiple environments. The rabbit hole gets really deep really fast, and in the end, this is all the result of the fact that the PvE scene is based solely on optimizing DPS, which is something the core necromancer and scourge especially are not supposed to do. While I know splits are tempting because it seems like the easy fix, it's really not a sustainable model to go by when trying to make things relatively even. Especially because PvE will always be just an optimization. As soon as something else that can do a role better comes along, or a class/spec is made redundant, it's gone. And it'll only ever change by forcibly excluding some other class/role. We saw this with the bounce of rev/thief in HoT's launch. The only way to get around it is to either make encounters simulate PvP better, or just make the encounters more diverse and require differing roles. That's literally it. Otherwise, someone will always be in this position. Currently, it's necro as a whole because all of its options are better-done by other things. It's truly impossible to achieve true PvE diversity without just removing all classes. There will always be an optimization. And even then, if it were theoretically possible to achieve perfect numbers balancing, people would just look to whatever was easiest to play to get those numbers, and demand that, instead of what may be more mechanically taxing or risky to pull off. The mentality is the issue and there is no cure when there's a one-size-fits-all approach to PvE.

If reaper provided competitive DPS, then this also wouldn't be an issue with scourge specifically, either; like every other profession, the class would just be told to spec a specific way. Reaper's about the closest thing to actual sustained DPS the class is probably supposed to have. This could have been somewhat achievable with a simple coefficient change on what was already a weak AA in its previous shroud, but the degen killed that and the removal of SoS hurt most PvP-shroud builds, too.

Scourge is meant to provide a group advantage via sustained fights with active group defenses via barrier and corrupting boons. It's the debuffer-style support role dialed up to 11, making it the "great equalizer," and it's an absolute monster in environments where it can do what it's meant to. PvE just doesn't reflect these encounters. While I think reaper in particular needs a revisit, what happened to scourge needs to have happened so long as the scourge by concept even exists. It doesn't matter if it's scourge or another profession. What was released was downright oppressive in the PvP formats, and it still would have been in PvE if some encounters were designed to allow the spec to do well.

Whether or not necro needs a rework (though reaper needs revising for sure)... I can go either way here. The entire vision of the class would need to change fully. The mesmer changes were big, but we're talking basically doing the same as just adding an entire new class that functions well and isn't flawed like revenant, that at the same time won't alienate people who have been playing and liking necro as it is for years. That's a massively tall order and is something that I don't think can actually be achieved.

Emphasizing change for encounter design to accommodate for the necromancer needs to be pushed harder if you really care about the class because in all honesty, it's about the only thing that can make it usable for more than one patch cycle. Because if it phases anyone else out, there will be buffs and nerfs. People will run numbers, and all of a sudden it's worthless again for three or four more months.

[Dadnir.5038]

What you say make sense DeceiverX and appart from your view about PvE/PvP, I totally agree with you and I'm pretty sure lily also agree with it.

The issue that led to the scourge is that the necromancer have constantly been, since launch, on the short end of the stick when it come to PvE. This had led the necromancer community to ask incessantly for tools and changes that would help them reduce the gap between them and other professions. Anet, like you suggest chose to bend PvE and global mechanics so that this gap somehow reduce and man the gap reduced a lot but it still not quite there.

• Boonsharing was mainly done throught cooperation and combo at launch, this have disappeared almost completly.
• Stealthsharing have been made trivial.
• Mobility is no longer essential.
• Damage done by bosses have been a lot soften, they even implemented %age of life based damage, making dodging a bit less relevant.
• Projectile destruction and reflection was deemed to strong and thus bosses mechanisms bypass those mechanisms.

All of those, the necromancer was at a disadvantage for it at it's launch. No, to be more accurate, at launch the necromancer was even an hinder to boonsharing.

And then come "damages". Quickly player found that power damage and high attack speed were advantageous in PvE until HoT. While the necromancer could hit "hard", it's attack speed was so awfull that it didn't even matter.

Alongside those, with HoT, the necromancer gained a lot. Be it projectile destruction (at the same time as it lost it's usefullness) or party support that assume that your teammate will be downed or even a party buff that increase neither your party suvivability nor does it increase by a sensible amount your party dps. Making all those a kind of a waste in PvE.

More than anything, HoT was the moment that devs focused on boon corruption like it would be the savior of the lord necromancer. Scepter, dagger, axe and signets gained their corrupt boon share. Did the necromancer really needed more of this? He had already it's niche in PvP/WvW thanks to that. So yes maybe it added a little bit of build diverty for the necromancer in PvP. PvE? Nope. Most of the time boon corruption is unneeded.

All of those make it so the necromancer's PvE community is frustrated thanks to 5 years of discrimination and the scourge pissed of most of the PvP community thank to a very badly designed e-spec.

First and for all, the necromancer need a rework of it's design philosophy. This philosophy only lead to anger in PvP and uselness in PvE.

Necromancer: From my point of view, the shroud need a rework. Boon corruptions shouldn't be everywhere, it should be something that you have to make choices to access to. The whole life siphon nonsense have to change.

Scourge: Shade mechanism need to be reworked. Shade skills need to be balanced properly based on their potential effect, traits and procs included. I just can't understand how they could release instants skills that proc burn, torment, cripple, power damage, vulnerability and give might on top of their own effects, specific traits effects and the possibility to add on crit effects like bleed on crit. And thus with super short cool down. It's just impossible to accept this as "balanced" even when you are someone who use it. Bandaids (read numbers tweeks) made these skills bad but didn't change the fact that they are imbalanced.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Kind of what I mean, though. Until encounter design changes, necro will always be useless unless you totally change what the necro is.

And if you need to do that, how do you do it? Because if it's allowed to soak tons of damage, it can't be allowed the highest DPS. Nor can it if it's meant to disable. Nor if it has crazy condition management, nor group sustain.

We can talk about how things don't work all day, but the only thing that matters is how it should be changed specifically. I don't think there's an answer if the theme of the necro is going to try to be upheld, and changing themes at this point is similarly damaging, especially if ANet decides their new theme for the profession would be something you may not like or may not be super-useful in PvE, like being an unparalleled sustain tank.

There are damned good reasons the profession is and has been constantly top-tier for most of the PvP side of the game's history. Last meta was literally "if you don't 4v1 the necro ASAP and shut down its LF regen, you lose the fight and likely the game." While slightly overtuned in the case of condi reaper (which did get gutted in excess), a good necro and a good support were an unstoppable duo.

The scourge itself is bad design because it's trying to do too much and honestly it does it all too well. So rather than trying to solve the problem of reworking everything and splitting the game's skills such that you end up with entirely different games between formats (and do you really think ANet would do a good job with double the skills/traits to balance? They can't even handle our existing set...), it'd be such an easier and more holistic approach to solve the PvE problem within PvE. It isn't a numerical problem but one just that the necro has no reason to be taken because its strengths aren't allowed to be used in existing PvE. Make enemies simulate the PvP environments where everyone runs around with permanent all boons maxed out and 50% immunity uptime. Have fights you're meant to sustain in. Have the enemies apply 20+ confusion/torment/bleeding after a few seconds like what can happen in WvW so transfers become significant. Have that corruption, support, and disablement be really useful.

If you remember pre-rework Orr, those encounters were brutal. You got swarmed by enemies which dealt substantial power damage, condition damage, corrupted boons, and CC'ed you. People complained it was too hard, but this is what makes the necro be useful, and simulates why it's so strong in the PvP formats.

Because you can't balance PvE numerically. You can't even really balance it conceptually, either. This is a community mentality problem paired with negligence of creating the types of encounters in PvE you'll see across formats. Necro no matter what happens will never be optimal unless it just outright replaces another spec. And then that spec has the same problem as us.

So we should demand problem-fixing at the encounter-level to allow us to be taken and get us made strong at what we're supposed to do while not being overtuned because of demands for more DPS or have weird splits that make cross-format play extremely difficult and bug-ridden.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dezember.1295 said:

@"Vanlong.1627" said:I think the devs don't boost the damage because necromancers are "the guys who never die". Which is why they "can't" give them more damage.

^^^^^^^ This. No profession in the entire game has the survivability that the necromancer does. In full zerker / yassith they still get loads of shield (if scourge) or a shroud (if reaper). They are well known to be one of the easiest (along with ranger) in regular open world PvE. It wouldnt be fair to give them the damage the ele has, because the ele dies if you look at them the wrong way and they struggle hardcore in fracts without defensive stats or a babysitting druid / crono. You either get survivability or damage, you can't have both. Unless you're a warrior xd Necromancer got the survivability. Am I hoping to see an alternative spec like the one Vanlong described? Absolutely. I am all for giving different professions different types of gameplay. Nobody wanna see an elite spec that is just like the previous one but better numbers. That's pointless. That is why I feel kinda sorry for elementalists. What did they get? Another glass cannon spec, yey. I sincerely hope that they find an elite specs that allows necromancer to sacrifice their tankiness for damage - if they wish.

Thats a direct lie (mostly in a pvp sense) in pve you may have some and i mean some truth to what you say... however....Dont sit here and say that no profession has the survivability that necro does in full zerker because thats not true. In fact almost any professions do. Yes they dont have the sheer amount of hp based on a value of points but they have better moblity speed and defensive tools while necro lacks drastically in both those categories ontop of having some of the slowest cast time in the game.Necormancers often die first in any competitive mode and require that the team keeps them alive for make their devastating impact Truth be told simply having more hp does nothing in this day and age of the game when it comes to how much a profession can take either you have the tools to avoid damage fully or you get melted instantly.

Ele might die if you look at them the wrong way but they often have a chance to just blink out just become invulnerable if they feel the need to do so and get away as were with necro its all or nothing.Ele's like many other professions have boons to drown themselves in consistently throughout their rotations. Necros have might..... maybe protection if you go for wells.When you start talking about survivability consider all the tools per profession and their mobility.

[SnowHawk.3615]

You forgot about rev.

[ZDragon.3046]

@SnowHawk.3615 said:You forgot about rev.

In all honestly rev is pretty solid with an elite spec. Before an elite spec thats questionable but we have only ourselves to blame in the case of that. The player base was the cause of many of revs core changes during the beta phases. Its nowhere near as bad as necro right now. Rev actually does socurges's job better than scourge. IT deals damaging conditions and can support in a much stronger way.