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PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

Gaile Gray.6029

By Gaile Gray.6029
in Player vs. Player

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Ya Ya Yeah.7381

Ya Ya Yeah.7381

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25% CD increase to Garish Pillar33% CD increase to Desert Shroud21% CD increase to Ghastly Breach40% CD increase to Plague SignetAnd this is going to Reduce influence of passive traits, Increase build diversity, Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits.???? CDs are NOT cast times and they are not passives either. These changes do nothing for build diversity unless you count killing off a build as diversity. These are just blanket nerfs to some of the most used Scourge abilities. Please try again.

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Master Ketsu.4569

Master Ketsu.4569

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@"Daemonium.8269" said:Since there will be an increased CD on scourge skills,please,consider an equal adjustment on Life Force consumption.....and please,pvp and wvw those warning are making me bleed my eyes.

Scourge lifeforce is the easiest "energy system" to maintain by a laughably massive margin. Once the fight gets going you don't even have to pay attention to it half the time. I don't think changes to lifeforce in response to CD changes will make much of a difference.

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Menzo.2185

Menzo.2185

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Suggestions for elite skills:

Weave Self : Weave Self (20s) to Weave Self (25s); Perfect Weave (10s) to Perfect Weave (20s)Elite Mortar Kit: Change ALL; more damage to all these skills. no need of HealingConjure Fiery Greatsword recharge 180s to 120sTornado recharge 150s to 120sGlyph of Elementals recharge 90s equal to Summon Flesh Golem: 48sMass Invisibility recharge 90s to 60sSignet of Humility recharge 180 to 120sTime Warp recharge 180s to 120sGravity Well recharge 90s to 120sLich Form recharge 180s to 120sPlaguelands recharge 120s to 90sGhastly Breach recharge 75s to 90s"Chilled to the Bone!" recharge 90s to 60sSummon Flesh Golem - Charge recharge 40s to 25sBasilisk Venom recharge 40s to 60sImpact Strike recharge 40s to 60sThieves Guild recharge 180s to 120sShadow Meld recharge 5s to 10sEntangle recharge 60s to 75s"Strength of the Pack!" recharge 75s to 60s

Let the engineers change weapons IMPORTANT

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Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"Daemonium.8269" said:Since there will be an increased CD on scourge skills,please,consider an equal adjustment on Life Force consumption.....and please,pvp and wvw those warning are making me bleed my eyes.

Scourge lifeforce is the easiest "energy system" to maintain by a laughably massive margin. Once the fight gets going you don't even have to pay attention to it half the time. I don't think changes to lifeforce in response to CD changes will make much of a difference.

In WvW, yes. In PvP, no. Deaths are the primary source of life force for Scourge, and they don't happen super often in PvP.

"Easiest energy system to maintain" definitely goes to Thief Initiative. Warrior Adrenaline takes second place.

That said, you probably aren't wrong about reducing life force costs having little impact. With the increased cooldowns, it probably won't be difficult to refill enough life force to use then between casts because you have so much more time to do so.

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Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:Hey folks,

The Competitive team and the Skills & Balance team are working together on an upcoming skill split release. We've posted a list of our first draft of proposed changes. We'd love your feedback. Please try to keep the feedback to the original post so that we can view the feedback in one place!

I appreciate that the team is looking to make some changes between pve and wvw/spvp.

Some feedback from a player who use to be a competitive support role player before esports and twitch were a thing...

Ranger-The changes to ranger Celestial Avatar are killing the team healing aspect of this build. With HoT the team decided to add more playable roles, yet, changes keep being made to Druid that discourage playing said role. The team built Druid to be a healer for fast paced and hard hitting combat, yet you gate our ability to heal for A WHOPPING 20 seconds... Druid form is already easy to shut down through hard control skills (knock backs, interrupts, daze, immob) and poison debuffs all heals by 33%... If you are attempting to cater to those duelers, who mostly run around with zerker builds that have zero toughness, then you are making a realy bad mistake. It's awful for the team to put any support player in a position where they have to appoligize to their team because they were locked out of their main heals due to timers (like I have had to do). This 20s is not a good design when there are tons of counters to the build. Staff is not a quality healing weapon to rely on either.

Druid staff auto is already horrible damage and low heals, yet it needs to be reduced why? When I'm running around in wvw and getting blasted for thousands of damage, the staff auto doesn't even compare... Staff 2 is useless in wvw. Staff 3 is great utility. Staff 4 misses all those moving targets. Staff 5 is pretty ineffective compared to a ton of skills I can bring up... Overall it's a low quality weapon design and that's all the team can come up with? Meanwhile I'm destroying things on my staff Daredevil and able to spamming skill 5 for 10k bursts multiple times... but Ranger staff auto is problematic? I got wrecked on my necro in full trailblazer in like 3 seconds by a Mesmer burst out of stealth for 24k, but druid staff auto?

Here are some real suggestions for Druid...

Ranger pet problems that have been an issue since alpha...

Both daggers need a competitive redo...

Zero changes to make playing support roles smooth and fun are ever made, so maybe take a gander...

Necro-

Suffers from the least amount of build diversity for wvw and spvp. Poorest mobility. Slowest overall skill casting speeds. Poor utility and defensive skills comparatively. Worst performing power builds and worst melee weapons. It's basically go condi or go home. I appreciate some cooldown reductions, but you are missing the big issues that were mentioned above.

Meanwhile condis keep getting nerfed because the system is not redone...

How many effective GS reapers do we encounter in wvw and spvp? not many, because the GS needs a competitive redo.

Please don't take anything I've said as rude, but the team has remained in the spread sheet trap of "change a few numbers" balancing, while not addressing the real balance issues and problems.

Think of the druid staff nerf and remember stuff like this...

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Allarius.5670

Allarius.5670

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@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:One additional note: The changes we're targeting here are nearly all focused on areas we could split between game modes. Please try to keep feedback focused in that area.

Things outside of basic numbers changes (changing the way a skill works) are not splittable.

This is unfortunate as my first reactionary suggestion would be to take all passive traits that are now set at 90 sec and do something else with them, especially now that they have been recognized as problematic for enjoyment.

I would have suggested using those traits to reduce their associated skills (or another defensive skill in the case that no skill is attached) by 10 seconds. This would require (1) the player slot the skill and (2) utilize it effectively, albeit more frequently. Ideally these traits would be removed and replaced altogether regardless of game mode, though this could be an adequate approach.

Alternatively, when time is available and should originally functionality remain desired in PvE, this secondary function could be added and the values simply adjusted based on game mode. For example, Self Regulating Defenses would have normal functionality set at 75 seconds and cooldown reduction on Elixir S set at 0 seconds for PvE, while for PvP and WvW normal functionality would be set at 0 seconds and cooldown reduction on Elixir S set at 10 seconds.

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LazySummer.2568

LazySummer.2568

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High Level Goals

Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

So you nerfed all the relevant passives on every classes by increasing their passive cds but only managed to nerf Mirror of Anguish on Mesmers that nobody uses and left Desperate Decoy untouched?

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

I don't really see anything done within this department from the notes except more unneeded nerfs to scourges, which already has a 0.5s delay. Mirages still get to spam Jaunt -> Shatter for high damage, Sword Thieves still retain their broken double steal (+ Infiltrator's Strike) that they can cast from miles away behind cover, and nothing was mentioned about FA Weaver, which can repeatedly burst you with 0 animation attacks.

Honestly I think the game will be better if all instant cast skills are only reserved for things like teleports and stunbreaks and have their damage portion removed (or have them do negligible damage like most cc skills) so they can be used to set up combos but not burst some poor guy down after you've memorized how to press your buttons.

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ImperialWL.7138

ImperialWL.7138

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@Crazy.6029 said:25% CD increase to Garish Pillar33% CD increase to Desert Shroud21% CD increase to Ghastly Breach40% CD increase to Plague SignetAnd this is going to Reduce influence of passive traits, Increase build diversity, Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits.???? CDs are NOT cast times and they are not passives either. These changes do nothing for build diversity unless you count killing off a build as diversity. These are just blanket nerfs to some of the most used Scourge abilities. Please try again.

So true.

Increasing build diversity is not completely destroying one viable build and allowing another build to take its place.

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Hiraldo.7954

Hiraldo.7954

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@"Threather.9354" said:I am not sure if I agree with reverting the resistance corrupting to immob for WvW like lot of people here suggest.

If there would just be enough players on commander with AoE clenase, there would be no conditions at all with the new specs like scourge, holo, firebrand.

Real guilds have no problem with it. Why do these people do?

"Real guilds"? Every "real guild" I know has been complaining about that change since it was announced.

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Kyvia.5961

Kyvia.5961

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Sort of a side note, but I assume this means you plan to buff/nerf PvE based solely off PvE numbers in the future, correct? If so, is there going to be a post on changes for that as well? I mainly ask, even though this is in the PvP forum, because since launch PvE players have gotten massive nerfs to skills because they made people cry in PvP (a good example is the incredibly annoying change in delay for Scourge Shades in PvE where there was literally no need for it outside PvP/WvW).

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needbeer.1687

needbeer.1687

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as usual anet giveth and anet taketh away once again making necros crappy just like they keep doing over and over and over and over and over and over. why does anyone bother playing this anymore? think its time to go back to adventure quest worlds. at leastthey try to balance things right. anet should REALLY get their staff from guild wars 1 back at least they knew what they were doing. the curent team outright sucks.

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Derm.4932

Derm.4932

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Pretty good changes overall except Mesmer will still be too strong and you nerfed an already underperforming DH(understandable since you want to nerf passives overall) but didn't compensate by giving DH buffs elsewhere. Guardians will still be forced into support or core. Damage changes to long bow would at least make it more competitive.

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Allarius.5670

Allarius.5670

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Suggestions, Mesmer:1) Consider Desperate Decoy cooldown increase for the sake of consistency in approach across all professions and their passive traits.2) Confounding Suggestions: I'd suggest limiting the stun triggered from the trait to Mesmer applied Diversion only, but since functionality changes are not on the table I'd suggest dramatically reducing the stun duration. Though it may or may not be over-performing, this change does fall under "Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits" of which Mantra Mesmer is a notorious culprit regardless of multi-skill followup.

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anduriell.6280

anduriell.6280

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@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:

Hi folks! The Competitive team and the Skills & Balance team have been working together closely on a future balance release that focuses almost entirely on PvP and WvW skill splits. As part of this, we wanted to switch things up and approach this release similar to how we approached the PvP sigil changes we did a while back, when we released our first draft of the proposed changes.

With this set of proposed changes, we'd like to get your thoughts and ideas on both our high level goals and how we're going about accomplishing them. You guys may bring up concerns or thoughts we didn't consider. While reviewing these changes, please consider them as a whole rather than focusing on individual classes.

We're looking forward to a productive discussion!

Increase build diversity

Ranger

Skills

  • Seed of Life: Increased the cooldown from 1 second to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Rejuvenating Tides: Reduced the base healing per pulse from 650 to 550 (-15%) in PvP and WvW
  • Solar Beam: Reduced the power coefficient per strike from 0.3 to 0.25 (-17%) in PvP and WvW
  • Signet of Stone: Reduced the duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced the cooldown from 80 seconds to 40 in PvP and WvW
  • Celestial Avatar: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Ricochet: Increased the power coefficient from 0.7 to 0.8 (+14%) in PvP and WvW. Increased Might duration from 5 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Winter's Bite: Increased the power coefficient from 1.25 to 1.5 (+20%) in PvP and WvW. Increased the Bleeding duration from 8 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Splitblade: Increased the power coefficient per axe from 0.3 to 0.4 (+33%) in PvP and WvW
  • Instinctive Engage: Increased the power coefficient from 0.6 to 1 (+67%) in PvP and WvW
  • Healing Spring: Increased the number of conditions cleansed per pulse from 1 to 2 in PvP and WvW

Traits

  • Stoneform: Increased the cooldown from 70 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
  • Shared Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
  • Protective Ward: Increased the cooldown from 18 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only
  • Refined Toxins: Increased the cooldown from 5 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Rugged Growth: Reduced the healing power coefficient from 0.245 to 0.1225 (-50%) in PvP and WvW
  • Grace of the Land: Reduced the number of Might stacks applied from 3 to 2 in PvP and WvW
  • Fortifying Bond: Reduced duration of shared Might stacks from 10 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • "We Heal as One!:" Reduced duration of copied Might stacks from 10 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Fresh Reinforcement: Reduced shared Might duration 10 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
  • Ambidexterity: Increased the Condition Damage granted from 150 to 240 in PvP and WvW
  • Two-Handed Training: Increased the bonus damage from 5% to 10% in PvP and WvW

Gaile please transmit my conngratulations to the balance team. Although i couldn't test yet i see nerfs in the worst offenders in wvw which is good. Anyhow I'd like their help t actually make the ranger fun, changeling and rewarding to play with a great build diversity. This changes make druid more balanced, but ranger is even more hammered down while nerfing skills which are already chosen because those are the lesser evil instead being the desired option. Please send them this wall text.

Now please let them know this points about other classes with the actual balance choices:Changes to warrior traits in pvp should be applied also in wvw. Is really disheartening when you fight somebody which have 16 seconds immunity to direct hits every 20 seconds. (between endure pains and shield) which does massive damage during 16 seconds every 20.Thief in general needs a nerf in general damage in one hit. Fight against a deadeye wich can do 27k damage with one shot,while standing stealthed all the time it is not fun. The balance stealth dilemma must be solved as it is not fair to be instakilled by a permament stealthed player. The longer they stay in stealth the less damage they should do and the less initiative they have left the less damage they can do. And the damage nerf by initiative lost should be significant so they can't play teleports freely.

Having classes which can instadown any player from stealth and without warning is not a fun game to play.

SUPPORT BUILDSAbout build diversity: other than the nerfs ranger needs the mobile spirits back. That is a must have for ranger to be welcomed in any squads,just make the buffs in wvw to apply to 5 (instead 10 like in pve) and have a unique simple effect in long interval to reduce server load. Anyhow ranger needs much more than it is done as it has been abandoned for too long. Passives should be reworked so they are simpler (25% chance on hit to apply 25% damage(Storm), apply freeze 3 secs(ice), apply burning 3 secs(sun), apply heal(water), apply inmob 3 sec(earth), corrupt\remove a boon (nature)) triggered once every 6 seconds interval 6 seconds. An actives to be ground target skills (second click) with the actual effects. Increase spirits CD if the trait is taken up to 40 secs (you get advantages (mobility) to give something in return)

CONDITION BUILDS,Traps need the range back by baseline, With this originally the trait was designed to allow the ranger to compete against the other classes with strong ranged AoEs or a lot of immunities to keep the melee combat. That's not the case of the ranger and now there is not an effective condition damage.

  • Traps should become like it was before the trait change: they can be redesigned like mines, either way ranger needs back the ranged condition AoE. Range can be reduced from 900(original trait) to 600 or 400 (depends on CD) so there a difference with light armor classes.

  • Traps effects and trait to be reviewed so they are fun and a player can build around those. All traps should be condition based (ice trap is like a inconsistent choice for condition build). Mostly they are on the spot just need some buff \ change effect to be fun. Traps instead causing burs could be based in a wear enemy off philosophy.Traits may apply more than one effect, one on trigger (like muddy terrain or spike trap) focused in CC\burst followed by wear off conditions. Example: spike trap is a good design (initial knock down + bleeds) although in an excessive high CD. Keep in mind ranger as it miss a lot of passive\active deffensses other classes have needs a higher lower CD in skills to be useful.

  • Shortbow get back the 1200 range and quick shot to become a 600 leap. Light on your feet to apply flaking effects to front.

Skirmish trait-line to have more access to conditions:

  • in master add a trait "Punishing wounds" which have 25% chance to apply torment when the ranger or pet apply a damaging condition instead the sword trait. Strider defense to be scrapped, its not an adequate design for ranger. Sword also have an almost spammy low Cd , so no need to even reduced CD in skills.
  • Sharpened edges to become 30% on hot instead on crit. simpler as such less server load.
  • Trapper expertise changed to apply reduced CD and superspeed when trap is launched.

Wildnerness survival

  • refined toxins: changed to 25% change to apply 2 secs poison on hit. Here we have an issue with condi ranger not to be viable in WvW\PvP. Increasing the Cd in this trait will not improve the changes but make less desirable build diversity forcing every single ranger into power.
  • Ruged grouth: The sweet spot of this trait is to apply the heal every second while in combat.

UNREWARDING WEAPON SKILLS - OUTDATED DESIGN

  • axe 5 the wirling thing needs to have mobility. In no real situation the ranger can stand immobile for +2 secs in wvw.Axe 4 (path of scars) needs a wider path. Right now is trying to thread a mobile needle. in other words extremely disheartening
  • dagger 5 needs to be a teleport the same as Judge's Intervention with the actual dagger effect on the target.Just needs the teleport so a melee ranger can keep up with all those high mobile targets.
  • dagger 4 needs to be an interrupt\stun also.
  • Sword 2 to remove precast and have an arrow to choose direction of the monarch leap.
  • Sword 3 to increase range to 400 and become a reliable skill, to be used a gap closer. If it hits to apply 1 sec immob so it can be used also to keep the enemy in melee.
  • signet of renewal: This signet to cleanse only the ranger. This signet to transfer conditions to the pet from only the ranger, apply long(10secs) lasting resistance to the pet. Increase passive healing base. While in beastmode to apply the resistance to the soulbeast

Soulbeast needs more access to quickness and better sustain based in conditions.

  • predators cunning need to be applied with every damaging condition the ranger applies Once every second like now.
  • Essence of speed to be changed to apply 3 secs quickness every 15 secs on hit an enemy. So while the soulbeast is hunting may have access to quickness .
  • Fresh reinforcement simply to apply an extra 2 secs to every boon applied by the ranger (no pet).Simple and freed the soulbeast from concentration which is a must for the core ranger.
  • Eternal bond to apply also 3 secs of resistance and total evade while can't attack (similar effect to engineers elixir S). 90 Secs Cd but the pet can attack normaly.
  • it becomes baseline or being removed completely as for soulbeast is not ggod to have a trait of something which shoudl be baseline. Otherwise we reproduce the nature magic trait line inconsistency which forces ranger into the bunker traitline limiting greatly the build variety,
  • Unstoppable union to have the effects not only when merged but also when emerged (also when eternal bond is triggered) no ICD as it's controlled by the souldbeast CD. This is to allow the soulbeast to have a reliable access to unblockable and break stun to it can stand up in melee against better designed and stronger classes. Otherwise is too niche to be of an any actual use and soulbeast needs to be able to stand against high stun time classes like some warriors, thief, scourge, engi or mesmer builds
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Fenrir Bartea.5917

Fenrir Bartea.5917

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The damage reductions across the board look great for WvW (can't speak for pvp as I don't often set foot in there). Please also consider the state of reaper in wvw. It has definitely been pushed out of the meta. This is mainly due to the PoF power creep; but also the reaper shroud degen nerf. It decays too quickly to compete with most other melee builds and their blocks/invulns/evades. In my opinion, that change was a little too heavy handed.

Either revert the degen nerf, return the shroud cooldown reduction to Speed of Shadows, or give us more ways to gain life force. Please and thank you.

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arnitheking.8427

arnitheking.8427

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I'm really hoping for an actual renegade rework at some point in the future (as opposed to constantly slapping number buffs here and there), the fact that one of the Kalla summon is useless in power builds and that all Kalla summons can be destroyed (sucks in wvw)as well as all the LoS issues of sb, the fact that it is suprisingly slow, the reverse shotgun principle of sb skill 3 which will realistically never hit moving targets in pvp, the somewhat boring traits etc. etc. remain massive issues that kind of hold renegade back

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ImperialWL.7138

ImperialWL.7138

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@Derm.4932 said:Pretty good changes overall except Mesmer will still be too strong and you nerfed an already underperforming DH(understandable since you want to nerf passives overall) but didn't compensate by giving DH buffs elsewhere. Guardians will still be forced into support or core. Damage changes to long bow would at least make it more competitive.

Support will be destroyed by removal of magi amulet, which was already the most supportish you could go and even then it was getting deleted by power chrono/mirage. Unless there is a new OP amulet like how cleric was or with vitality healing power boon duration that's 1 more viable build gone from the game. So going from 2 viable builds to 1 is hardly the definition of 'increasing build diversity' is it Anet? Or do you believe that we will see spirit weapon guards in the top teams now...?

At this point everybody just needs to reroll to S/D thief and power mesmer and we can all have fun getting one shotted by the very definition of instant cast abilities and passive gameplay.

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dargon.7253

dargon.7253

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Right now, warriors have a serious level of invulnerability in WvW which is not being addressed by these changes. Personally if I had to choose, I'd rather those got a nerf and the damage level remained the same in WvW than reduce their damage but keep their ability to ignore things for what seems like 30 seconds at a time

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