Worst T4 FRACTAL day ever!

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Malediktus.9250 said:What is the point of instabilities if they do not make the fractal harder, are not annoying and detrimental to common strategies? If you barely notice the instability it is a waste to even have them

Exactly, instabilities are bad by design. Because instability A can be unnoticable in one fractal but gamebreaking or frustrating in other. Such mechanics should be designed individually for every map instead of making a bunch of random effects and expect them to work for every fractal.

[Randulf.7614]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:What is the point of instabilities if they do not make the fractal harder, are not annoying and detrimental to common strategies? If you barely notice the instability it is a waste to even have them

Exactly, instabilities are bad by design. Because instability A can be unnoticable in one fractal but gamebreaking or frustrating in other. Such mechanics should be designed individually for every map instead of making a bunch of random effects and expect them to work for every fractal.

I do agree with this, although I understand why they exist - to keep encounters fresh. I guess it depends on which is more important, the freshness or the potential frustration. For me, I'd rather understand what I'm up against from the word go and not have the extra random element. Some of the latest fractals have lost a lot of what made fractals fun for me, without adding all the random stuff in on top which only seems to make them worse (all my own view ofc)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:What is the point of instabilities if they do not make the fractal harder, are not annoying and detrimental to common strategies? If you barely notice the instability it is a waste to even have them

Exactly, instabilities are bad by design. Because instability A can be unnoticable in one fractal but gamebreaking or frustrating in other. Such mechanics should be designed individually for every map instead of making a bunch of random effects and expect them to work for every fractal.

I do agree with this, although I understand why they exist - to keep encounters fresh. I guess it depends on which is more important, the freshness or the potential frustration. For me, I'd rather understand what I'm up against from the word go and not have the extra random element. Some of the latest fractals have lost a lot of what made fractals fun for me, without adding all the random stuff in on top which only seems to make them worse (all my own view ofc)

I understand what you saying but it would be much healthier to proceed with map revamps and new fractals instead of wasting time on these cheap gimmicks. They are not really adding anything to my experience. On the contrary, I play less fractals than before the changes.

[Talindra.4958]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:What is the point of instabilities if they do not make the fractal harder, are not annoying and detrimental to common strategies? If you barely notice the instability it is a waste to even have them

Exactly, instabilities are bad by design. Because instability A can be unnoticable in one fractal but gamebreaking or frustrating in other. Such mechanics should be designed individually for every map instead of making a bunch of random effects and expect them to work for every fractal.

I think malediktus means.. what is the point of hving mistlock if they don't feel challenging at all.... He didn't say it's a bad design :p.I think if dev feel easier to leave it as.. then by all means.. just give us a new map every two months (with new ap) xD we will be happyOr fractal armour collection (to grind)

[Talindra.4958]

Fractal 100 is amazing beautifully designed. The new one after is cool too.. the old fractals some how feel simpler..But they are nice and fun too. If.. it is taking less time to make a simpler fractal then why not do that to keep players occupy? While having bigger fractal project running behind. I don't mind if we get one new 100 once a year and normal simple new fractal maps every 2-3 months .. am I even being realistic? lol.. I believe Ben is trying to delivery quality fractal to impress our elite players. but I'm sure they can be catered for under raids. :) id prefer fractal to be easier so majority of players with different skill based can play without stress. :PJust my thoughts as a player :p

[Subli.8217]

@Lahmia.2193 said:I'd be happy if they kept the damage aspect to last laugh, just the CC is a pain. Especially on multiple kills.Social Awkwardness though. Skritt that to the realm of torment and back.

if they make Realm of Torment raid and SA is there, it's your fault!

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:What is the point of instabilities if they do not make the fractal harder, are not annoying and detrimental to common strategies? If you barely notice the instability it is a waste to even have them

Exactly, instabilities are bad by design. Because instability A can be unnoticable in one fractal but gamebreaking or frustrating in other. Such mechanics should be designed individually for every map instead of making a bunch of random effects and expect them to work for every fractal.

I do agree with this, although I understand why they exist - to keep encounters fresh. I guess it depends on which is more important, the freshness or the potential frustration. For me, I'd rather understand what I'm up against from the word go and not have the extra random element. Some of the latest fractals have lost a lot of what made fractals fun for me, without adding all the random stuff in on top which only seems to make them worse (all my own view ofc)

I understand what you saying but it would be much healthier to proceed with map revamps and new fractals instead of wasting time on these cheap gimmicks. They are not really adding anything to my experience. On the contrary, I play less fractals than before the changes.

Agree, before I would do cm's+t4 everyday. Last week I just skip cm+t4 most of the days, i think I did fractals twice or so.But I don't know what anet knows, they can see how many ppl complete t4 everyday and all the statistics, so they can see if these changes make the majority of the players play more or play less.If they think making things annoying is healthy for the game so be it.

[Eramonster.2718]

If the instabilities need to be nerfed to the ground or to have no effect in fractals, imo just remove it. No point having an extra piece of mechanic that have no function aside slowing things down.

Just a personal oppinion but I don't think there's a problem with skipping T4. Players can still pick T3 dailies and get the daily rewards, minus the T4 daily bonus box.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Eramonster.2718 said:If the instabilities need to be nerfed to the ground or to have no effect in fractals, imo just remove it. No point having an extra piece of mechanic that have no function aside slowing things down.

Just a personal oppinion but I don't think there's a problem with skipping T4. Players can still pick T3 dailies and get the daily rewards, minus the T4 daily bonus box.

It doesn't make them harder though. My group was faster than usually with the change because not having no pain no gain in cms results in higher party dps.Social awkwardness is just really annoying to deal with. Last Laugh is ok for most of the fractals but it was super annoying on effigy in molten boss fractal. Constant knockback circles everywhere.Having to kill waves of trash wasn't enough to annoy the players. They also need to explode apparently. But worst has to be 99cm endboss when you fail the weaver check at last phase. That turns the fight into a pinball game where exploding circles are usually hidden by other graphic effects.

But there could be more instabilities though. There are just a few you notice anyways.

[MoonCrash.6713]

So last laugh gets nerfed because people are too lazy to play around it and they can't play differently than the usual full zerk speedrun. If it was me i'd buff it, if you can't even stay away from minions (or use blocks, evade, and so on) when you know they're gonna explode, then you deserve to wipe. Killing trash is annoying, Social awkwardness is annoying, knockbacks are annoying, why are you even playing a mmorpg if you just want to clear a dungeon in 5 min hitting punching bag bosses?

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Last laugh is painful but in terms of destabilizing players (lol) it might be a contender for #1 place. I'd say it should get changed to something that still requires intense movement and would still heavily punish players who try to cleave. As I see it, the best instabilities to actually require you to rethink your playstyle are the anti-things such as anti-stacking (social awkwardness) and anti-cleaving-without-thinking (last laugh).

You're kidding, right? Social awkwardness just makes people hate each other. Especially in pugs where you meet "druids" that want to heal you by running into your hitbox with CA#4 all the time, killing your scholar bonus. It's not just forcing to rethink playstyle. The good instabilities are non-invasive into your social interactions with other players. Flux bomb - makes me want to kill people sometimes. Same with social awkwardness.

Whats fun and enjoyable? Random rabbit/tentacle popping up. Random skyhammer, random Mai Trin bombardment. Mobs getting strong at low hp. Vindicators (though this also has people-hating potential but mainly because they go down, mobs are easy to kill). Basically the instabilities that increase difficulty but provide healthy environment for the fact that 5 sentient humans are inside an instance.

I somewhat agree that providing a healthy environment is one thing but would like to insist that this is precisely what makes some instabilities "useless" insofar as they do not increase difficulty at all. The random stuff appearing has never, never even come close to putting a dent on any pug I ever played with. Things like Flux bomb and social awkwardness are indeed relevant because players still have trouble to git gud and deal with it years after it was released. Vindicators are still responsible for making people fight over it, but I'll concede that enrage is one of the best instabilities there are around.

This is actually best seen (and probably derived from) in a raid like Matthias where the responsibility of each individual to achieve mechanics make the fight insanely harder, because one player can effectively destroy the match for everyone else. This is obviously not the only way of challenging players (as things like Vindicators, Enrage and Harmstrung demonstrate), but it is a good one, and if it causes people to destabilize and get angry at each other so easily, maybe that team had a problem coming together to begin with. I have to insist that it is a very good thing to enforce a change of playing style at the level of the team, not merely of each player. For example, if you have a druid running up to you with social awkwardness on and this is causing wipes, the instability is doing its job marvelously, of denying the team the strategy of stacking for this fight. I find it unsurprising that players often complain the most about the team-wide handicaps that instabilities introduce, because with these they actually have to realize there are 4 other sentient humans inside their instance, and actually be held accountable for what happens to others. What social problems emerge from this can and (oh my god, emphasis on should) should be dealt socially, by talking, just like hopefully it would be done in real life.

[zealex.9410]

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sublimatio.6981" said:yesterday was also one of my worst days for fractals mainly because it took me over 1 hour of being instakicked upon joining groups (that i met lfg requirements for) for playing reaper. its only reinforces me in complaining here and on reddit about the class. i don't want to play other classes so you might say it's my problem, but personally i feel like anet is disrespecting my time by their continuous negligence. if they can rework power warrior/chrono to get at 33k+ dps then what are they waiting for with the class that actually needs it the most? the other classes already were in demand. it's so unfair.

Yea I mean your on of the best reapers out there mate, alot of others me included make the class look bad sorry for that.Scourge was on par with other classes but apparently that was a bug and not intended =)

Top dps= "on par"

[CptAurellian.9537]

Today's T4 Underground was hilarious due to LL. My pug had a chrono, two warriors, a guardian (all classes who can literally fart stability and other counters to the explosion) and my elite spirit. And yet, when a mob came to the people on switches, they were certain to become bouncing balls. Not that mobs went there often, but still. It really feels as if one of the main issues with the new random instabilities is simply people's stupidity.

[Sereath.1428]

Great, back to boring faceroll T4s everyday.

[Ceriph.3518]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

Also if you don't know something or you are confused then simply ask, not attack.

Or you could make a post that’s clear. Not a post with a cryptic title (T4 what? Mats? Prices have crashed? Fractals? Something else?) and then the body of the post is not helpful. (Last laugh? Did you mean someone got the last word?).

I read the thread and wondered if T4 mat prices has crashed and you thought someone (hoarders maybe) had had the last laugh.

Did the title get changed? It specified t4 fractals when I first saw it, but I didnt see it until well after it was posted.

It was just The worst T4 day ever. The word fractals was added later.

I mean, T4 is pretty synonymous for fractals...so it's quite clear what OP was referring too

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@Ceriph.3518 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

Also if you don't know something or you are confused then simply ask, not attack.

Or you could make a post that’s clear. Not a post with a cryptic title (T4 what? Mats? Prices have crashed? Fractals? Something else?) and then the body of the post is not helpful. (Last laugh? Did you mean someone got the last word?).

I read the thread and wondered if T4 mat prices has crashed and you thought someone (hoarders maybe) had had the last laugh.

Did the title get changed? It specified t4 fractals when I first saw it, but I didnt see it until well after it was posted.

It was just The worst T4 day ever. The word fractals was added later.

I mean, T4 is pretty synonymous for fractals...so it's quite clear what OP was referring too

This thread was originally posted in General Discussion then moved later to the fractal/dungeon forum. T4 is also synonymous for T4 mats. It’s been a meaning of T4 since launch, unlike the fractal meaning. So the OP posting a thread named ‘Worst T4 day ever’ in General Discussion without a clarification was unclear.

[Ashen.2907]

@Ceriph.3518 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

Also if you don't know something or you are confused then simply ask, not attack.

Or you could make a post that’s clear. Not a post with a cryptic title (T4 what? Mats? Prices have crashed? Fractals? Something else?) and then the body of the post is not helpful. (Last laugh? Did you mean someone got the last word?).

I read the thread and wondered if T4 mat prices has crashed and you thought someone (hoarders maybe) had had the last laugh.

Did the title get changed? It specified t4 fractals when I first saw it, but I didnt see it until well after it was posted.

It was just The worst T4 day ever. The word fractals was added later.

I mean, T4 is pretty synonymous for fractals...so it's quite clear what OP was referring too

t4 was a reference to materials before the existence of fractals.

[Eramonster.2718]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Today's T4 Underground was hilarious due to LL. My pug had a chrono, two warriors, a guardian (all classes who can literally fart stability and other counters to the explosion) and my elite spirit. And yet, when a mob came to the people on switches, they were certain to become bouncing balls. Not that mobs went there often, but still. It really feels as if one of the main issues with the new random instabilities is simply people's stupidity.

Or simply don't kill the dredges if they're close to the panels. There are many ways to do the panels for Underground Facility. Like how aegis can prevent the knockback when the door closes if the panel is lifted and the player will still be channeling to open the gate. ? Not sure if it's intended to be freed from panels to help defend. Woops ? Ben might read this~?

I play fractals during non-peak hours, and I find the players are more adaptive and creative in handling situations. Always fun to learn new ways to do stuff. This could be because of it takes time to find a party, the players have a different mentality and tolerance.

[anduriell.6280]

Hey being knocked down like a ball in a pinball game is everyday food for the ranger.

You get used to don’t worry. I use those 4 seconds (more is there is any fear involved) bouncing around to relaxxxxxx

[Talindra.4958]

Lol anduriell .. and if your character die as a result.. just sit back, watch the others and enjoy :p

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

@Eramonster.2718 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Today's T4 Underground was hilarious due to LL. My pug had a chrono, two warriors, a guardian (all classes who can literally fart stability and other counters to the explosion) and my elite spirit. And yet, when a mob came to the people on switches, they were certain to become bouncing balls. Not that mobs went there often, but still. It really feels as if one of the main issues with the new random instabilities is simply people's stupidity.

Or simply don't kill the dredges if they're close to the panels. There are many ways to do the panels for Underground Facility. Like how aegis can prevent the knockback when the door closes if the panel is lifted and the player will still be channeling to open the gate. ?

Not sure if it's intended

to be freed from panels to help defend. Woops ? Ben might read this~?

I play fractals during non-peak hours, and I find the players are more adaptive and creative in handling situations. Always fun to learn new ways to do stuff. This could be because of it takes time to find a party, the players have a different mentality and tolerance.

I personally have no plans to change that (without reworking the whole thing) It's a cool use of stability.

[LONGA.1652]

I just gave up doing Molten boss fractals with last laugh since some pugs desn't know when to switch to ranged weapon last minute. That place just ask for trouble with amount of adds during bosses.

[Talindra.4958]

@LONGA.1652 said:I just gave up doing Molten boss fractals with last laugh since some pugs desn't know when to switch to ranged weapon last minute. That place just ask for trouble with amount of adds during bosses.

Do it with cm group xD 99.99999% no problem even with old last laugh. I will try later if I hv time

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

New worst day ever: Vindicators in 99CM. Specifically the orb phase on Ensolyss. It was particularly cruel to give them countercapping status. I have dramatically increased my /gg speed, and will be skipping this CM for the rest of the week. Had I not had a friend with me I would have ditched out of guilt (or been kicked, and I wouldn't have blamed them), and was too humiliated to even enjoy our eventual victory.

I really dislike mechanics that discourage players from trying their best to improve. Normally orb phase is tough, but everyone tries their hardest to last as long as they can, and that benefits the survivors, and with practice people get better over time. Vindicators destroy that dynamic. There is no practicing, no trying, no doing your best. Now, unless you are perfect with your dodges, you need to be perfect with /gg'ing before you go down. Otherwise, your failure destroys the survivors' ability to compensate (unless they are so superlatively skilled that they can kill vinds while dodging). It discourages teamwork and the synergy of individual strengths and weaknesses by making one very specific weakness on one person's part into an absolute fail for the entire group.

[Eiffel.8937]

not much into fractals but from what I read you only need to use single target weapon and focus targets one by one for LL ? that should not really be that hard to do