The censoring

[Bast.7253]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Ok, so another thread about "excessive moderation." I invite everyone to read the comments and wonder why this is not a worthwhile topic for the forums.

But in the interests of disclosure, and because I'd like to try to answer some of the concerns (or refute the fallacies), I'll respond:

First let me start by saying that if anyone has questions about moderation, they need to write us at Forums@Arena.Net. Forum posts are pointless, as they very seldom tell the whole story, and they are (naturally) biased. If you have written to ask about any recent infractions, we will get back to you within at least a few days, if not the same day. We will respond with a personal (not form letter) reply. Every single appeal is read, reviewed, and either upheld or reversed.

Let's look at this more closely:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The censoring on these forums are absolutely ridiculous. Even if it isn’t something to another poster there’s a pretty high chance either nobody will comment and it will be a dead thread or you will get an infraction and the post removed.

The reddit threads see more dev posts than these forums and the moderation doesn’t seem to censor every non-praising thread or the slightest even remotely negative comment towards someone else.

Why should they remain? Why should anyone make a negative comment towards someone else? Explain to me what name-calling and insulting adds

to the point of the forum, which is talking about

the game.

I see far worse posts on these forums than the things I have been warned about so it must just be me which is a shame because I’m a very loyal customer that just happens to have a multitude of opinions.

Forum members come from all ages, genders, cultures, and language groups. They look to an official forum as a place to converse about the game, and not a place where they need to be cautious of stating their thoughts because they might be flamed, insulted, name-called, or attacked by another member.

In your case, you insulted a member, calling them condescending. You did not say their comments were condescending, you said

they

were condescending. That's insulting, contributes nothing of value, etc., etc.

It may take a little more sensitivity to post here than on a fansite or other forum. But we hope that the level of conversation here makes using common sense worthwhile.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

negative comment towards someone elseThen don’t make negative comments towards someone else. Restrict your comments towards the argument.

There are many non praising threads that don’t get censored. However threads about forum moderation will get censored, just like they will on any game’s forum.

This. Exactly this.

@"Zedek.8932" said:

EDIT: I rather get banned for saying the truth and post this, just to know that this wildcard rule hit me and that's just not right: I have been infracted for saying "Jesus Christ" or for sarcasm. And for

NOTHING:

Usually only who has to hide things are the ones that censor. Communist regimes still do it to this day.

Yes, it's part of setting a decent expectation. Using swearing terms isn't good -- it offends other people, as I explained in our correspondence in February. I get that you don't feel the term is offensive, but it's really not acceptable for a global community. Oh and essentially calling the mod team "commies" is even worse. :dizzy: But you've gone there before, and although I've explained in detail before how offensive it is -- and provided you with a lengthy e-mail to provide a full recounting of your forum history as of Feb 1, 2018 and to offer you my personal apology for an error I made in a former review -- you've trotted it out again. Note: Calling people communists is rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. Unless they are communists and don't mind being called that. Second Note: I am not, and I do.

There is nothing whatsoever in the queue from you now. Resend if you have something to discuss and I'll give you the same careful and respectful attention I gave you last time. You have to admit, that was a detailed and honest response! :)

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

Frick and Frack (4372, and 5907) seem to get a real surge of self-importance out of harrassing people with endless and meaningless infractions.

The moderator accounts are used by multiple members of the moderation team. There

is

no Frick nor Frack. They are people doing their jobs, and your comments are rude and insupportable. Got a problem with an infraction? Write Forums@Arena.Net. But don't expect that this is a "Get out of jail free" card, because if you breached the reasonable forum rules, the infraction will be upheld. But... you've never submitted a single appeal, from what I can see, so I don't expect you to understand the process. I

do

however, encourage you to use it. :)

@Strider Pj.2193 said:What I have observers: it appears as the comments do not get moderator attention unless reported.

Given this, I believe they err on the conservative side. In two cases (out of 5 for me) when I sent an email as a 'protest', the infractions were overturned. The other three weren't really something I cared to argue over.

Good, then the process is working!

If you feel it's overkill, appeal them. If you don't want to take the time to appeal, then it doesn't bother you enough.

Exactly!

Lastly, I do not believe the moderators are developers. That being said, in the two that were appealed, @McKenna Berdrow.2759 was involved in the review and overturned them.

You're mistaken there, for McKenna does not have moderator privileges, and neither reviews appeals or overturns them.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

[EDIT: other name] forums were a cesspool and even they didn’t have the kind of moderation seen on these forums. And got more responses too.

Maybe that other forum is a cesspool

because

they don't have the kind of moderation we have.

@"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:My impression of the mods here are they are little better than a call center person who reads from a script but has no deductive ability. Doesn't make them a bad person, but being a good person doesn't mean you're good at your job.

You've had two infractions: For being off-topic (specifically, talking about eating dog meat) and for insulting someone by calling them a "liar." You appealed neither, and that's ok because both were appropriate post removals. Now, what exactly is your concern, and what entitles you to insult moderators... or call center workers?

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

Posts that are rude towards or attack another member, single out another player for ridicule or that accuse someone of inappropriate behavior will be removed.

It’s clear enough there. All posts and comments should be directed towards the logic of the argument. Sarcastic remarks towards the other person, commenting about him, repeating his words in a way that shows you’re mocking him. None of these things are about the logic of his argument and the moderator will infract.

I’ve gotten plenty of infractions and each time I did it was for being sarcastic or rude (or for being off topic). If you post in irritation then you’re likely to say what you shouldn’t. Write it down, save the draft then go away for a while and reread your post. Is it sarcastic? Did you say something about the other person. If you did, then rewrite it. There’s no reason to post in haste when you know your emotions are engaged. You can wait a few minutes until you’ve had time to reconsider.

Even sarcasm is usually ok, unless it "steps on the toes" of another user by insulting them directly.

But thanks for posting your insights, and offering some sensible suggestions.

Sorry, I don't know how to pick apart the ones specifically responding to me. To my original post you mentioned specifically insulting someone. Technically, "I’m sure this sounds petty and you clearly know your lore, but sometimes it seems you’re more bent on proving others wrong in a pseudo-condescending way than actually adding to the discussion." were my exact words. So it wasn't directly calling them condescending. I don't find that unreasonable but I guess I should have phrased as something like, "but sometimes the tone of your response comes across as condescending." Or is that too far? I'll just refrain from expressing anything from now on in regards to someone's behavior and ignore the entire thread, even if every other response is some unnecessary devil's advocate argument about how the sky isn't blue, it's a combination of "this this this this this and this" because I just NEED with every bone in my body to be the absolute end-all be-all encyclopedia of life.

As to the posts about the other forums not having the same kind of moderation and being worse for it, I can agree that a higher level of moderation keeps the conversation far more intelligible than on those forums. It just strikes me from time to time putting effort into a post that seems to follow the guide lines and then getting a notification that I'm received an infraction and my post that (on some occasions) could have led to a reasonable discussion.

I'm glad this has led to a discussion, even if some people are being a bit harsh. I wasn't trying to belittle the moderators and working in retail I know how dealing with the public can be at times and having to watch everything I say, which might be fueling my disdain for particular behaviors and leading to being more liberal with what I say on a public forum.

In any case, I'll just know to avoid any threads with said individual so I won't have to refrain from potentially pointing out any behavior that may be perceived as less than favorable or off-putting. As I posted it I realized that if my assumption about their personality was correct, they would not have realized their tone to begin with or cared that they may have been turning people away from a discussion they otherwise would have been more passionate about and continued. Personally, I already usually try to avoid them because having a discussion with someone who has already decided that everything you say is ill-informed and spends response after response picking apart nearly every sentence starts to feel like you're on trial.

For future reference, anyone who reads this, if I'm being rude, condescending, or generally unpleasant, I don't try to be unless provoked and feel free to very subtly so-as-to-avoid-moderation reference said behavior to me and I will attempt to resolve it. Aside from the pvp crew and more elite pve game modes, which I'll admit I can get carried away in at times, we generally have a great community in this game and one far better than any other online game I've played. As to my posts regarding my opinions about certain parts of the game on these forums, although not always praise, I still wouldn't choose any other game over this one and have had great experiences with customer service. It's evident that a lot of work goes into this game and is appreciated.

Now if one of the moderators could just follow me to work every now and then and put a giant blur over any number of the customers threatening to slash my tires, throw cinder blocks through the windows, or intimidating me with their car in the parking lot, it would be a huge help! (I'll pay you in guild hall decorations and cheap minis that you probably already have!)

*Edited because this was and still is kind of a hot mess of a response.

[Rufo.3716]

I have sent an e-mail to Forums@Arena.net and never heard a reply. It has only been a couple days so I don't know if it just takes these appeals longer or what.

[usnedward.9023]

All I can say is I like to see when someone who thinks the system has worked them over and then see a CS agent come here and dispute the claim with additional information. Most forums do not allow name shaming and the like but I played an MMO that released the names of accounts that were banned and the reason. That would be a cool feature.

I've been warned and minor infraction once or twice with an explanation as to why and there is nothing for me to dispute. Learn and move forward. Too many times people come here and complain of how unfair they were treated and then @Gaile Gray.6029 comes to this post and in a sense calls people out to the facts (who I might add have called out CS). I see nothing wrong with that and would love to see more interactions like this TBH.

Not saying that ALL infractions are just but better to err on the side of caution as sometimes the context of a post can have varied meanings and though the poster's intent was not to target someone it can be read in a different manner.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

cptaylor: ...but I guess I should have phrased as something like, "but sometimes the tone of your response comes across as condescending."

Yes, that seems exactly right there. And sometimes, it's best to walk away, if you know you're oil to their water. I do acknowledge it's a pain to do that, especially when you can see holes in their position and know they'll never acknowledge the valid points you are making. So if you want to engage with them, just keep "above the fray" and address the opinion rather than the person.

You could use the report system to ask a question, too. Maybe "Am I reading this wrong -- is that offensive?" or "Please check and see if these comments are acceptable according to forum rules." Asking the question can highlight issues with another person's posting patterns. Or just share your opinion, "I believe this is offensive" and let the team take a look.

@Rufo.3716 said:I have sent an e-mail to Forums@Arena.net and never heard a reply. It has only been a couple days so I don't know if it just takes these appeals longer or what.

Found it. Reviewed it. Reversed it. You did not direct your comments at any individual, and while a tad harsh, the comments were fine.

[Cyrin.1035]

I'd be happy to refute some of the fallacies with this post.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

"First let me start by saying that if anyone has questions about moderation, they need to write us at Forums@Arena.Net. Forum posts are pointless, as they very seldom tell the whole story, and they are (naturally) biased"

This is incorrect, as they serve a very constructive purpose of bringing in alternate opinions of such issues beyond just those between the forum poster and the forum administrator. Discussion is what forums were built on and continue on. They should be allowed to take place under reasonable, nonmanipulative terms. Naturally, the true information can be found from the questions of responders to the OP and to the forum administrator that dealt with the OP's issue. Both can give their side of the story and explanation/reasoning. Most personal topics should be discussed in private. A broad topic about flawed forum moderation that effects all, is a topic for the forum and one the forum admins need to look over and participate in as you have.　

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said: "I invite everyone to read the comments and wonder why this is not a worthwhile topic for the forums."

This is most certainly a worthwhile, relevant, and necessary topic on the forums in which it is about. To degrade such a topic or even worse, locking or deleting threads that constructively discuss such a topic is exactly what a thread about censorship is all about. It also deserves the opinions and constructive comments from the forum's users, not a biased two-person conversation in private.　

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said: "Explain to me what name-calling and insulting adds to the point of the forum, which is talking about the game."

This depends greatly on what one considers to be an insult and to an even greater and more ridiculous degree, what is considered an insult on this particular forum by its admins. There is the obvious and blatant insult, the insinuating insult, the sarcastic insult, and then there is the unacceptable by GW 2 forum admins insult. One that is inconsistent and sometimes based on subjective opinion.

I could pick apart every response a forum admin or another forum member has posted to another forum member and find several examples of words, phrases, metaphors, ect that I personally or others might consider general insults, indirect insults, or personal insults. The line between subjective and objective is very inconsistent here.

I've been on forums of varying types and worked as a hired associate on gaming forums smaller and larger than GW 2. There is a need for strict policy and moderation. Partly for general forum control and the other part for the reputation and marketing integrity of the product in which the forum is based on. GW 2 forum admins do a great job maintaining both, yet they have gone partly beyond necessity to the point of exaggeration and assumption. That "bias" they like to point out often goes both ways. The only reason one matters over the other is because one of them belongs to the one who controls this domain. Therefore the one who ultimately controls the conversation.

I've seen other forums do this type of moderation as well and although it keeps a certain amount of dedicated posters and keeps away a lot of destructive posters, it also eliminates a vast majority of intelligent, constructive posters that avoid such forums due to their lack of authenticity and support for true discussion. They don't want to have to worry about offending the company or making the company look bad. They just want to give honest opinions and engage with other posters in a natural conversation where one may be losing focus and it becomes necessary for the other to point it out to them. On a GW 2 forum, if you point out a problem in another poster that is detrimental to the constructive conversation, this is sometimes considered "insulting" and therefore censored in some way. This prevents accurate and truly constructive discussion.

Therefore, the opinions you get on a forum like this will likely represent an even smaller portion of the entire community that would have liked to participate here. It also does not help that the forum wasn't created with a well-though-out and detailed forum policy that any proper forum is built upon.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:"They look to an official forum as a place to converse about the game, and not a place where they need to be cautious of stating their thoughts because they might be flamed, insulted, name-called, or attacked by another member."

Or censored, have their posts deleted, or account penalized for posting what most of the general public would consider to be non-insulting. I'm sure they didn't come for that either.　

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:"In your case, you insulted a member, calling them condescending. You did not say their comments were condescending, you said they were condescending. That's insulting,"

This is exaggerated and the epitome of what is wrong with the current forum administration. To claim that calling someone "condescending" is an insult is very ignorant, assumptive, subjective, and possibly inaccurate.

Telling someone that they are condescending or being condescending is an objective description of someone who may in-fact be insulting this person. A poster should be able to inform the one they are responding to of this so that they can continue their conversation in a constructive way. These types of assumptions are not something a forum administrator should or needs to be involved with. It's both redundant and a waste of their time.

If someone tells me I am incorrect in one of my statements, should I report them for insulting me? What about if someone calls the images that another forum user posted of their character, "ugly"? Should they be reported for insulting? What if they call their images beautiful? Maybe the user who posted those images feels uncomfortable and feels harassed by such a comment. Did this user intend it as an insult? What makes you qualified to discern and determine what the intention was behind a poster's words that are not blatantly insulting? Do you know the poster? Is it a lot easier just to label it and sweep it away because you do not know the intention? The only justification for such thought and actions is that this forum is in the mods control and they have final action on the post's future. But that does not make them accurate or justified in their choices and they should not be falsely telling posters that they were wrong when in some cases they were right.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said: "contributes nothing of value, etc., etc."

Deleting conversations that met forum policy, stayed on-topic, were constructive towards the game, and had virtually no insults, also contributes nothing of value, and alternatively, removes value that did exist on the forums.　

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said: "It may take a little more sensitivity to post here than on a fansite or other forum."

This is incorrect. It does not take "a little more sensitivity". It takes a very dedicated, assumptive, over-the-top, ridiculous, and artificial amount of sensitivity to post on this forum. Even so much that those who have never had a policy problem with their posts are finding themselves surprised to find their cheerful, supportive posts censored to some degree. So much that if you are not blowing sunshine up and around every poster and thing on this forum, you should be on grounds for punishment.

Perhaps we should all be offended by everything and anything if it bothers us just a little. Such as... the "jail" wording and reference with the account occurrences. I feel very offended by this and I think it's too harsh and insulting to the forum users. Why can't it be the "time-out corner" or the "break room". Should I consider reporting or writing a ticket or an e-mail about this? Will it be worth the time of the forum admins?

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said: "Even sarcasm is usually ok, unless it "steps on the toes" of another user by insulting them directly."

And how do you discern what steps on the toes of another user when it is not blatant, obvious, or called out by the user? I've seen plenty of posts where there was "stepping on toes" with sarcasm. How many complaints and reports should I send in before the mod team realizes how much of a waste of time dealing with that is?

Some might think all sarcasm is very condescending, deceptive, and extremely rude to use by anyone and to anyone. They may be deeply offended and insulted by such a thing. Should all sarcasm be considered insulting in this way or do you still label such a thing as "usually ok"?

Where is the line drawn? Who discerns these situations and what are they basing their discernment on? Bias? Unwritten policy? Exaggerated use of their policy? Where is that definitive line that should have been included and made clear in the beginning?

Remember that posters, just as the forum admins, also give their time and effort to creating posts. Deleting them based on inconsistent rules and expecting them to just accept that action, further weakens forum admin credibility and forum policy credibility. To the point where it's not about policy. It's about what is acceptable by the admins based on how they feel or think something is.　

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said: "Maybe that other forum is a cesspool because they don't have the kind of moderation we have."This is where ignorance and arrogance come together and is seen often in people that are in some form of control whether it be as a forum administrator or another position of "power".

Being the polar opposite to certain other forums doesn't make the forum a proper or well-run forum. Throwing complete dominance and control over a forum may fix many problems that posters can cause, but it also switches the cause of the problems to the forum administrators.

Deleting, adjusting, censoring and ultimately mixing up posts based on inconsistent policies is also very detrimental to a forum. You cannot have a proper forum when the discussions and forum members are constantly censored or removed for petty or silly reasons.

---

I do not support the OP's particular argument and based on what was pointed out about them, it sounds like they have intentionally and directly insulted the forum mods.

But there is without a doubt an issue with this forum's moderation in terms of their mods clearly knowing what their policy is and where it stands between objectivity and subjectivity. So far, their current way has negatively affected many users. Both those who are insulting and breaking policy and those who are clearly not and are subject to GW 2's "special" type of forum administration.

The posters here are actually writing paragraphs to ask what is and isn't considered an insult on these forums... That speaks to how well that policy was designed for this forum. Nowhere... on any mainstream forum should the users have to wonder and ask if simple and common words that are safe and acceptable on most other forums, are allowed. That's the kind of overbearing and unnecessary interference that forums do NOT need.

It's your forum. You can do as you please. Or as ANET expects. But do not justify certain actions as if they are right or virtuous when they are neither and blame or insult users because they didn't meet subjective/irrational standards. That is no way to properly run a forum.

[Neural.1824]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:"...but sometimes it seems you’re more bent on proving others wrong ..."

That's this forum in a nutshell. Someone posts an idea, opinion, feedback, etc., and the vast majority of the time, the comments are all focused on invalidating anything the OP said without providing any rational or meaningful response to the core idea/opinion/feedback stated.

As for the moderation on this forum, it's not so much about cultivating "positive criticism" as it is filtering. I think the fact that equating/describing an attitude (without naming individuals or group of individuals) as "cancerous", because of it's nature of eating away at healthy communities, resulting in an infraction is pretty absurd, especially when the comment was not written publicly, but whatever. The mod knows who they are, and I'm sure they are proud of themselves, just like the ones who target users they disagree with and flag every thing they write that might remotely be construed as negative in hopes that they'll get banned.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

I agree the mods can be overzealous. I posted on a thread where a guy listed things he didn’t like about something. In my post I said that your opinions (on that post) are negative and that there are positive ways to look at the same thing, then listed the positives. I got infracted for that because it was “rude” to tell someone that his negative opinions are negative.

I contested that infraction and pointed out that I didn’t say that the guy was negative, I said his opinions (on that post) were negative and that I didn’t see how that was attacking the poster as opinions can be positive, negative or neutral. I was assured again I was being rude so I guess I was. /shrug. But I still don’t see it. However its stuff like this that can make it hard to post without infractions as you never know what thing you think is perfectly reasonable, isn’t, according to the moderator.

[Arathor.5819]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The censoring on these forums are absolutely ridiculous. Even if it isn’t something to another poster there’s a pretty high chance either nobody will comment and it will be a dead thread or you will get an infraction and the post removed.

The reddit threads see more dev posts than these forums and the moderation doesn’t seem to censor every non-praising thread or the slightest even remotely negative comment towards someone else.

I see far worse posts on these forums than the things I have been warned about so it must just be me which is a shame because I’m a very loyal customer that just happens to have a multitude of opinions.

I completely agree about this. The way I like to put it is that it's okay to be a @&*# but it's not okay to call someone it. These forums have a massive, massive problem with just cancerous and toxic people that mods do literally nothing about BUT GOD HELP YOU IF YOU SAY A NO-NO WORD.

[Neural.1824]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I agree the mods can be overzealous. I posted on a thread where a guy listed things he didn’t like about something. In my post I said that your opinions (on that post) are negative and that there are positive ways to look at the same thing, then listed the positives. I got infracted for that because it was “rude” to tell someone that his negative opinions are negative.

I contested that infraction and pointed out that I didn’t say that the guy was negative, I said his opinions (on that post) were negative and that I didn’t see how that was attacking the poster as opinions can be positive, negative or neutral. I was assured again I was being rude so I guess I was. /shrug. But I still don’t see it. However its stuff like this that can make it hard to post without infractions as you never know what thing you think is perfectly reasonable, isn’t, according to the moderator.

You built that reputation yourself over the past 5 years. It's no different than any of the mods assuming my choice of words in a given situation are an attack on Arenanet or the companies policies. It may not be true in a given situation, but my history gives them cause to look closer. The primary reason I think the moderation situation here is somewhat akin to Bedlam is that 1) for inexperienced players joining the forum, they may feel like moderation is handed out randomly because it is based on other players reporting an issue, and 2) the moderation is not handled evenly. I have personally reported a personal attack from one person towards another 4 times in a row (back on the old forum system), only to see the report cleared and allowed to stand a mere 30 minutes later. Of course I can't pull it up and prove anything about it now since the forums have been deleted.*

It's an issue that is not easily resolved because the mods can't be everywhere and read every single thread and reply. I get it. Anet isn't exactly enthusiastic about my views on how they choose to run their business. If the moderators go over my posts more closely, it is what it is. But the last few times I recall seeing threads like this, they have been started by, or contained participation by, new players who were trying to figure out why exactly they just got run over by the infraction bus. That says there's potential room for communication improvement.

*Estimated data. it's been a couple years. I don't remember the thread, or whether it was 3 or 4 times the report was made/cleared.

[rapthorne.7345]

@"Gaile Gray.6029"This is why I love you. Please can this be a stickied topic? This level of honest and open transparency and banter regarding these things that do clearly bother a lot of people is fantastic.My only personal bugbear with the ANet moderation structure is that no one knows who the moderators are, and the vast majority of things seem to be done out of sight. Personally I'm much more used to having moderators in forums who are well known and highly respected community members, and this makes their decisions much easier to accept rather than having punishment handed out by a nameless shell account.I can see the positives for having no specific person tied to a moderation action, but I just much prefer seeing an actual player with a good old fashioned "Moderator" title on their forum account.

[Leo G.4501]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

Harshness has a place. It is ultimately good for someone to have their sins called out, and their person to be meaningfully criticized. People learn from negative reinforcement, or at the very least they learn from aversion.

I'd like to discuss those comments: What is your qualification as a teacher? Why is your right their wrong? And why do you feel a

game forum

is the proper place to have

anything

to say about someone's "person?"

I would not want to be involved in a community that believed that a

game forum

was intended, or could be part of, someone's "aversion training" or a process of "negative reinforcement."

Leave the moderation to the professionals who can and will objectively and fairly review content and then act with honest, positive intentions to respect all members and make decisions based on member expectations, the company's desires for our forum platform, and our community's greater good. To put it a different way, dn't poke yourself in the chest putting on some ill-thought badge of "Forum Policeman." Or if you want to do that, do it elsewhere. Because you couldn't be more wrong about what is "good for" our community or the people within it.

I feel this is exactly why it's important to face aversion, not as training but because it is to be expected. The reason people do not like the forum moderation a good deal of the time is because it's too common and its too common because people are so quick to report for the simplest of aversions and they are so quick to do so because they are not used to it.

Even now, I feel you're becoming defensive about your moderation tempo because you are not accustomed to discussing it. And the "professional" comment is rather chuckle worthy. I know you're paid to do it but are you prepared for this subject and all it entails to continue this conversation like this?

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@Neural.1824 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I agree the mods can be overzealous. I posted on a thread where a guy listed things he didn’t like about something. In my post I said that your opinions (on that post) are negative and that there are positive ways to look at the same thing, then listed the positives. I got infracted for that because it was “rude” to tell someone that his negative opinions are negative.

I contested that infraction and pointed out that I didn’t say that the guy was negative, I said his opinions (on that post) were negative and that I didn’t see how that was attacking the poster as opinions can be positive, negative or neutral. I was assured again I was being rude so I guess I was. /shrug. But I still don’t see it. However its stuff like this that can make it hard to post without infractions as you never know what thing you think is perfectly reasonable, isn’t, according to the moderator.

You built that reputation yourself over the past 5 years. It's no different than any of the mods assuming my choice of words in a given situation are an attack on Arenanet or the companies policies. It may not be true in a given situation, but my history gives them cause to look closer. The primary reason I think the moderation situation here is somewhat akin to Bedlam is that 1) for inexperienced players joining the forum, they may feel like moderation is handed out randomly because it is based on other players reporting an issue, and 2) the moderation is not handled evenly. I have personally reported a personal attack from one person towards another 4 times in a row (back on the old forum system), only to see the report cleared and allowed to stand a mere 30 minutes later. Of course I can't pull it up and prove anything about it now since the forums have been deleted.*

It's an issue that is not easily resolved because the mods can't be everywhere and read every single thread and reply. I get it. Anet isn't exactly enthusiastic about my views on how they choose to run their business. If the moderators go over my posts more closely, it is what it is. But the last few times I recall seeing threads like this, they have been started by, or contained participation by, new players who were trying to figure out why exactly they just got run over by the infraction bus. That says there's potential room for communication improvement.

*Estimated data. it's been a couple years. I don't remember the thread, or whether it was 3 or 4 times the report was made/cleared.

It has occurred to me to wonder if once you start getting infracted you are more likely to be infracted since the moderator remembers you and remembers infracting you. Of course I have no proof either way but I do wonder.

As to the old forums being deleted, they were archived. Here is a link to the old forum. It’s searchable now so if you remember the thread name or key words you should be able to find those posts.

[Leo G.4501]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:If you are criticizing a position, an idea, a suggestion, or a complaint -- fine and well. But if you suggest that because you want to "call out BS when you see it" or because you believe your comments have merit and will help people, that you can make your comments

personal

-- as in someone needs to grow a thick skin and take whatever comments you care to make -- then I have to disagree. I'm not sure which you're saying, but feel strongly that we should talk to the topic and not about the person.

Hi Gaile, I just want to get this straight because I'm a little bit confused about the thing I just linked you say. You say

it is

ok to criticise "a position, an idea, a suggestion, or a complaint." But it's not ok to say something if it could offend any person??? You said it's not ok in this case: when "someone needs to grow a thick skin and take whatever comments you care to make."

I actually think you're actually saying something very dangerous. Who in this planet can possibly determine when offense is taken and when it is not, and who in this planet can do so without bias? And who earnestly believes that offense is always a bad thing?

Let's step back and look Big Picture. It's one thing to say, "I disagree with your idea," It's quite another to say "I disagree with your idea, I think you're stupid to offer it, and hey, is that rumor I heard about you having stinky feet true?" :dizzy:

You do realize that the thumbs down feature was doing the exact thing you're saying while also protecting the user from possibly sinking to writing an insulting post while also saving moderation time?

[Ashen.2907]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:If you are criticizing a position, an idea, a suggestion, or a complaint -- fine and well. But if you suggest that because you want to "call out BS when you see it" or because you believe your comments have merit and will help people, that you can make your comments

personal

-- as in someone needs to grow a thick skin and take whatever comments you care to make -- then I have to disagree. I'm not sure which you're saying, but feel strongly that we should talk to the topic and not about the person.

Hi Gaile, I just want to get this straight because I'm a little bit confused about the thing I just linked you say. You say

it is

ok to criticise "a position, an idea, a suggestion, or a complaint." But it's not ok to say something if it could offend any person??? You said it's not ok in this case: when "someone needs to grow a thick skin and take whatever comments you care to make."

I actually think you're actually saying something very dangerous. Who in this planet can possibly determine when offense is taken and when it is not, and who in this planet can do so without bias? And who earnestly believes that offense is always a bad thing?

Let's step back and look Big Picture. It's one thing to say, "I disagree with your idea," It's quite another to say "I disagree with your idea, I think you're stupid to offer it, and hey, is that rumor I heard about you having stinky feet true?" :dizzy:

You do realize that the thumbs down feature was doing the exact thing you're saying while also protecting the user from possibly sinking to writing an insulting post while also saving moderation time?

This.

[Randulf.7614]

Moderation isn't remotely harsh here by any stretch of the imagination - people just aren't used to being told to refrain on the internet where they can type behind a keyboard protected by the anonymity it provides.

Whilst I have been guilty of pushing things too far, I usually edit/review what I post before I let it go (these days anyway - the benefit of age I guess!). General rule is to post what I would say to someone if they were in the same room as me. Most people if they abide by that rule would be very different online in their postings habits I suspect.

I don't see any issues with the moderation here - sometimes I'd prefer it to be stricter at times, but they can't be everywhere given the sheer volume of daily posts.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:If you are criticizing a position, an idea, a suggestion, or a complaint -- fine and well. But if you suggest that because you want to "call out BS when you see it" or because you believe your comments have merit and will help people, that you can make your comments

personal

-- as in someone needs to grow a thick skin and take whatever comments you care to make -- then I have to disagree. I'm not sure which you're saying, but feel strongly that we should talk to the topic and not about the person.

Hi Gaile, I just want to get this straight because I'm a little bit confused about the thing I just linked you say. You say

it is

ok to criticise "a position, an idea, a suggestion, or a complaint." But it's not ok to say something if it could offend any person??? You said it's not ok in this case: when "someone needs to grow a thick skin and take whatever comments you care to make."

I actually think you're actually saying something very dangerous. Who in this planet can possibly determine when offense is taken and when it is not, and who in this planet can do so without bias? And who earnestly believes that offense is always a bad thing?

Let's step back and look Big Picture. It's one thing to say, "I disagree with your idea," It's quite another to say "I disagree with your idea, I think you're stupid to offer it, and hey, is that rumor I heard about you having stinky feet true?" :dizzy:

You do realize that the thumbs down feature was doing the exact thing you're saying while also protecting the user from possibly sinking to writing an insulting post while also saving moderation time?

Now that you said this... I really want downvotes to come back. If not, remove all reaction buttons.

[Solaris.2489]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Solaris.2489 said:Im suprised this thread isnt censored and has a comment from anet. I got warned once for saying anet censors everything they dont agree with. and all this kitten rubbish, do you market the game mainly to males with high testosterone age 14-80 or fluffy unicorns from outer space?

I played with a unicorn from outer space last night. He chose Norn. You should have seen the awesome tattoos and the way he wielded his gyro -- it was inspirational!

lol I was really drunk when I wrote that, awesome though that it wasnt censored =)

[Fluffball.8307]

No one in their right mind would suggest the moderation isn't insanely overzealous here, but Anet can do whatever they want and aren't going to change how they do things just because people complain. It's their forum and your free speech rights start at your own personal website and end here. For that matter even reddit can delete your comments and ban you if they wanted to.

[Greener.6204]

@Fluffball.8307 said:No one in their right mind would suggest the moderation isn't insanely overzealous here, but Anet can do whatever they want and aren't going to change how they do things just because people complain. It's their forum and your free speech rights start at your own personal website and end here. For that matter even reddit can delete your comments and ban you if they wanted to.

Oh bother, I thought I was using the right mind this time. Grumble One second, it's around here somewhere. Rummage ;)

But yes, posting on these forums is a privilege; a great way to lose that privilege is by disrespecting the other people present.

[Zohane.7208]

@"Fluffball.8307" said:No one in their right mind would suggest the moderation isn't insanely overzealous here, but Anet can do whatever they want and aren't going to change how they do things just because people complain. It's their forum and your free speech rights start at your own personal website and end here. For that matter even reddit can delete your comments and ban you if they wanted to.

Hm, it seems to me you're saying anyone who agrees with the moderation are out of their minds? Was that really what you intended to say? Or was that a logic error in your sentence?

I for one do NOT think the moderation is "insanely overzealous" and I feel that I'm in my right mind. (In fact I don't think moderation is overzealous at all - in my book they do a balanced job...)

[Tsakhi.8124]

One day, I will ask Gaile to marry me. She will say no, I will nod and cry and walk away. XD To be quite honest, when I look back at the time I was warned I was sort of confused, at first, but as I sat and thought about it, I was like: "I would have done the same, were I moderating the forums."

I used to volunteer mod on another forum, from another game, and wowie, some people were so...crass. They liked to insult other people in a different language, unfortunately for them, it was an international game and several members spoke that language. So, it was normally: "Hey, Tsa, this is what that means."

"oh. Well then!"

I always try and see every side to the story, despite it being confusing.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

negative comment towards someone elseThen don’t make negative comments towards someone else. Restrict your comments towards the argument.

There are many non praising threads that don’t get censored. However threads about forum moderation will get censored, just like they will on any game’s forum.

I have been infracted multiple times when people would publicly call my guild exploiters and I would defend myself. My posts were removed for "talking about exploits" when it was merely a defense against the accusations.

I have played multiple MMOs and the one thing people know widely in the gaming community is the censorship on the forums. You can't call someone wrong, you can't defend yourself against something that isn't an exploit, you can't defend yourself against blatant condescension.

I really hope these policies change.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Forum posts are pointless, as they very seldom tell the whole story, and they are (naturally) biased.

OP doesn't complain about a specific incident, he started a discussion about moderation on these forums in general.

I got the impression that as soon as someone feels offended, he can report a post and be certain it is removed from the thread. The post can have 300 words and address several points, and if it has one presumably offending word in the last sentence, the whole post is removed, and other posts as well if they quoted this part. That sometimes heavily disturbs the conversation because it creates missing links. Sometimes a thread has heated discussions and the language is different than in more neutral threads, but the moderation makes no difference. I suggest to not remove a post completely but lock it and ask the person to clean it up to unlock it. That way we don't have to copy and paste the removed post and post it again (after guessing which part of it might have offended someone, because it's never really told and not clear).

We are only a handful of players who use these forums and if you have a group of people discussing things repeatedly, you will see harsh words sometimes. It's the same in real life groups, it doesn't mean we want to hurt each other or don't respect the other person. I never see threads derailing here, this is a rather civilised community. I'm not saying that it needs no moderation, I sometimes report posts that contain nothing but an insulting one liner.

If posts get removed because someone felt offended, but the person who wrote the post didn't even intend to offend anyone, it's a problem. This kind of moderation ignores the circumstances of the discussion, the background. It also provides no frame for what is considered ok. People come from different cultures and have different characters, and the only way to not offend anyone is keeping silent. People get offended all the time, but that seems to be your trigger for moderation: "if someone feels offended, we need to step in." I once told someone that his damage might be crappy, and my post had been removed for it. I reposted after removing that part and it was ok. So you cannot even point this kind of stuff out because someone could feel offended. Or maybe he wasn't offended at all but reported it to punish me, which worked because the moderator followed along.

Also, we do receive form letters when a post gets removed. I've never received a notification that was actually written by a moderator, pointing out which part of my post was inappropriate and why. I always receive one of the copied & pasted form letters and nothing more. To not create a misleading impression here for my fellow forum posters who might think "dude, if your posts get removed so often, maybe it's you!". I have created more than 700 posts since the new forums have been launched and 4 of them got removed by moderators. My experience is also based on what I see in threads where posts by other members are removed for no good reason.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

negative comment towards someone elseThen don’t make negative comments towards someone else. Restrict your comments towards the argument.

There are many non praising threads that don’t get censored. However threads about forum moderation will get censored, just like they will on any game’s forum.

I have been infracted multiple times when people would publicly call my guild exploiters and I would defend myself. My posts were removed for "talking about exploits" when it was merely a defense against the accusations.

I have played multiple MMOs and the one thing people know widely in the gaming community is the censorship on the forums. You can't call someone wrong, you can't defend yourself against something that isn't an exploit, you can't defend yourself against blatant condescension.

I really hope these policies change.

Did you appeal via email or just complain on forums?

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

negative comment towards someone elseThen don’t make negative comments towards someone else. Restrict your comments towards the argument.

There are many non praising threads that don’t get censored. However threads about forum moderation will get censored, just like they will on any game’s forum.

I have been infracted multiple times when people would publicly call my guild exploiters and I would defend myself. My posts were removed for "talking about exploits" when it was merely a defense against the accusations.

I have played multiple MMOs and the one thing people know widely in the gaming community is the censorship on the forums. You can't call someone wrong, you can't defend yourself against something that isn't an exploit, you can't defend yourself against blatant condescension.

I really hope these policies change.

As hard as it is, no you’re not supposed to post to defend yourself if someone is attacking you on the forum. Instead you’re supposed to report that post since that person is also breaking the forum rules (naming and shaming). You’re going to be the one to get infracted if you respond. You have to let the moderator handle it.

I had one guy single me out for “special attention”. I’d post and he would quote and post with an off topic remark, usually accusing me of doing things. I never responded to him but simply hit the report button each time he did that. He got infracted each time and I never did.