How about implementing permanent no downstate?

[DemonSeed.3528]

Are people really this bad at managing downs?

[Specialka.7290]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:Are people really this bad at managing downs?

Are ppl that bad they need downstate to carry them?

[Zero.3871]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:WvW happens to be a team based experience

i dont disagree. you can fight as team, but if someone go down he is out. you can cast all your support in a Team fight to your mates. hold them alive, if you are not able to that you failed and you should loose. simple. what is the Problem in not going downstate when you already outnumber your enemy and it is useless to talk About balanced Scenarios, because wvw was never 1v 1 or 20 v 20, it was ever 1 v 3 or 20 v 60. thats all the time cause you cant perfect balance populations as Long as greater number= greater reward mechanics exist and people bandwagon. and the 60 already have the way greater Chance to win the fight because of their number. balancing dont have the task to bring the 20 People in a greater disadvantage with downstate mechanic.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Zero.3871 said:

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:WvW happens to be a team based experience

i dont disagree. you can fight as team, but if someone go down he is out. you can cast all your support in a Team fight to your mates. hold them alive, if you are not able to that you failed and you should loose. simple. what is the Problem in not going downstate when you already outnumber your enemy and it is useless to talk About balanced Scenarios, because wvw was never 1v 1 or 20 v 20, it was ever 1 v 3 or 20 v 60. thats all the time cause you cant perfect balance populations as Long as greater number= greater reward mechanics exist and people bandwagon. and the 60 already have the way greater Chance to win the fight because of their number. balancing dont have the task to bring the 20 People in a greater disadvantage with downstate mechanic.

The reason you try to balance for "balanced" scenarios is to control variables. If you're attempting balancing 20v60 you will probably hurt the 20 even more because the 60 will more than likely have access to it. It'd be waste of time and resources to attempt making 20 equal to 60 for "balance." Or on the flip-side. You detriment 60 people for the sake of 20...

That is why I am making it a HUGE point to not even try to give 20 v 60 (or 1 vs. Whatever) as a reason for anything. At best it's an example of population disparity that has little to do with downstate for this thread. How does no downstate resolve population issues? Short answer: it doesn't. Winning a 1v5 wouldn't be indicative to "good game balance" assuming all are equal skill (in reality skill levels vary); it does suggest something is over-tuned. Lastly. ANET has defined "support" for us already all we can do is complain or adapt given the mechanics present. Your view of what "support" is not necessarily ANET's.

[Israel.7056]

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@BlueMelody.6398 said:I just tanked up and played uber-cautiously and didn't die any more than usual. I saw a lot more gank squads doing their fish-in-a-barrel routine near spawn than usual by percentage. I saw more because there

were

more. Those squads were 100% reward/0% risk. That is not balance, and it is not healthy for the game.

So this is like guilt by association.

Bears are bad> Fish attracts bears > Fish are bad.

Who said bears were bad? When did this meeting take place and why wasn't I informed?

A fair point I also like bears.

[Xenash.1245]

I know I'm probably not the most well informed or most knowledgeable about this subject, but if anything I think you should be complaining about removing the rallying mechanic in WvW. Though in turn I personally don't think removing the downstate in general, is a good idea for wvw.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

What about only the ability to heal yourself while in downstate?Also Rally bot should not resurrect you but only heal you for a percentage just like the engi elixir Z toss.

[Victory.2879]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Victory.2879 said:No, it means you play cheese build that does enormous damage but can avoid most incoming damage unless you get unlucky and miss a dodge to a telegraphed skill.

No downed state pushes everyone to either play insta gib stealthed or cheese mirage (or a group of them) or bunker up, depending on whether you're roaming or zerging. It promotes the use of cheese (who then exclaim they are 'good' when beating players not built to roam or classes that are running support) and generally makes the game less fun for those that don't like cheese. For those that do like cheese, try spvp. there you will face players who are ready for you and are playing counters. Too tough for you? That's why you're in wvw, for the easy kills against builds that aren't set up against your cheese.

I main rev, how about you? I have a very hard time against mesmers and thieves same as you or anyone else, worse perhaps as mesmer and thief are probably the worst matchups for me personally. I still do fine though so don't project your ineptitude onto me just because you can't figure out how to deal with mesmers and thieves.

I know exactly how to deal with them on certain classes and very rarely will one drop me. I still consider them complete cheese.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

The ones that get carried by downstate will want it to stay because they rely on a carebear mechanic to stay alive instead of actually improving in the game. Roamers want it gone forever.

There are thousands upon thousands of more carebear players in gw2 compared to people that solo or roam in small groups, so if there's voting, carebear bunch will automatically win.

The sad truth.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@Schnuschnu.9857 said:

@"Gwaihir.1745" said:If your post is only 3 words you are part of the blob problem in wvw.

Try putting up a real reason other than repost rehtoric.

I'm also against it. I'm no zerg player. I roam solo and with guild mates. No downstate just

promotes cheesy one shot builds with high disengage potential

. And what about scrapper, bloodmagic necro and all the other good rezz builds? Rezz builds are not only played in blobs. We play them sometimes just because we can in a 3 man guild group and can sometimes get the upper hand on a 5 man roaming group just because of this. It enables tactics which are non meta (and these tactics sometimes work just beause they are non meta, opponent has to figure out what to do which costs them time they do not have). It would push oneshot build, require enormous reworks on some classes and might end up in another "DPS or get out"-meta... yay. Bunker meta isn't fun either, but now you can play both and it works.So... how about no?

So thieves since 2012 with or without downstate being active?

[Musty.3148]

@Roxanne.6140 said:I don't really get why people say downstate favours the larger blob. I mean, if your small man squad is really good, you would be able to rally your squadmates as well

From experience I will say, small groups 5ish, when fighting larger groups 10+ really have to pull and stretch the enemy out so they can't focus all of their damage and CC on the smaller team. This is counter intuitive to being able to run back and kneel down and spend several seconds ressing a downed member of that smaller team. On the other hand the larger team can spare 2-4 people's damage and CC in order to res their downed member while the rest attempt to chase down the smaller more mobile group. It's really a no brainer to be honest.

[anonymous.7812]

Please stop making these topics. It was discussed ad-nauseam during the event.

[Jski.6180]

@Farout.8207 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

The number of times you can rally needs to be nerf may be 1 to 2 times after that you go into full down.

Downstate shouldn't exist in my opinion but if it must the rallying mechanic should definitely be removed. How does an opponent dying magically bring you back into the fight? Downed players should at very least require some sort of physical interaction to revive.

Its too much in the game as is to remove it comply would pull the rug out from ppl. Better to ask for a lesser version and if it works out ask for an even lesser.

[Gwaihir.1745]

@anonymous.7812 said:Please stop making these topics. It was discussed ad-nauseam during the event.

Must still be relevant or something. People still talk about the past y'know?

[Roxanne.6140]

@Musty.3148 said:

@Roxanne.6140 said:I don't really get why people say downstate favours the larger blob. I mean, if your small man squad is really good, you would be able to rally your squadmates as well

From experience I will say, small groups 5ish, when fighting larger groups 10+ really have to pull and stretch the enemy out so they can't focus all of their damage and CC on the smaller team. This is counter intuitive to being able to run back and kneel down and spend several seconds ressing a downed member of that smaller team. On the other hand the larger team can spare 2-4 people's damage and CC in order to res their downed member while the rest attempt to chase down the smaller more mobile group. It's really a no brainer to be honest.

You can also say a larger group hits twice as hard as a smaller group and wipe off people instantly in a no downstate game mode. I mean, using a natural advantage a large group has over a smaller group is also a no brainer point which is remotely relevant.

Also, if 2-3 people went to ress that downed ally, doesn't it look like a window of vulnerability to you?

[inubasiri.8745]

No-down-state decreases the braindeadness in the zerg, because if you stray away you die. But the game wasn't meant for no down state imho.How about downies don't rally off dead people?

[Dawdler.8521]

@inubasiri.8745 said:No-down-state decreases the braindeadness in the zerg, because if you stray away you die.

Some would argue that running in a single ball is the very definition of braindead zerging. I think you mistook decreases for increases.

[Garrus.7403]

I dont know why some so called "roamers" here call ppl who like big scale fights carebears. I enjoy both roaming and big scale fights. You have some serious problems if you call ppl carebears just because they enjoy a different part of the game. Play another game and be done with gw2.

[Maven.1690]

@inubasiri.8745 said:No-down-state decreases the braindeadness in the zerg, because if you stray away you die. But the game wasn't meant for no down state imho.How about downies don't rally off dead people?

I like this idea for WvW only.Then adjust some skills so rezzing in combat can be a legit thing.Like make scourge transfusion teleport the bodys from where the shade is cast to where the necro is so he can rez.

Im also in favor of no down state over down state.

[The Game Slayer.7632]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Farout.8207" said:Just curious who all would be for making no downstate permanent. I was skeptical when Anet first mentioned it but now I really miss it. It was a blast and allowed me to

win some outnumbered fights

that I most likely would have lost otherwise. What exactly is the point of downstate anyway?

No. First, any

idea implemented into the game should be balanced around balance scenarios

. If anything the reason you gave is why we need a downstate. In general, no downstate favors burst, and

twitchy game play

. This is regardless if it is "blobbing" or "roaming."

Second, the point of downstate is just that,

an extra chance to survive/fight back

. If players are not accounting for a mechanic that has been around for 5 years into their strategy then you're going to be at a disadvantage. Personally, I'd remove the auto-rally aspect but that's irrelevant to this response.

Third, if it hasn't been obvious this is a casual game mode. It is persistent 24/7, and a threeway. Those two big things suggest it isn't going to cater to intense competitive additions to please players with more reflex (usually younger people), so any comments relating to "skill" can mostly be ignored given

twitchy game play

can be correlated to age or at the very least veterans that built up their muscle memory. If people are going to keep complaining that the game is dying then you need elements that are going to increase new players, not ones that give little feed back on failure or a chance to survive. If the new players always lose they stop playing, thus we have less people to fight/ppt. Sort of like the relationship of a small rat and big rat when play fighting. Despite be capable of winning 100%, the big rat will intentionally lose 25% of the time so the weaker rat will keep playing.

It was an interesting short term burst of activity for sure, but by no means should be long term. If your only reasoning is to win a 1v1+X fantasy this isn't sufficient for me.

Change my mind.

D:

I've heard about that rat study. It's extremely interesting. The problem is this though: Downstate saves my opponent from death about 80-90% of the time when I'm outnumbered. Not 25%. It's why a young veteran player like myself hasn't touched gw2 for a while before no downstate, and hasn't touched after either. Good luck without your veteran players. No one to make exceptional guides, streams, videos, or content for all you new players. No downstate was the most fun I've ever had in this game, hands down. But I'm not coming back unless something radical about downstate is changed. Too much powercreep. Too much power revives and insta rezzes and not enough impact strikes and gyro stomps.

My reasoning isn't so that I feel better about myself when I win 1vX, but rather, so that I can continue to play the game to help everyone else out. I'm just going to move on to dead by daylight, overwatch, minecraft and others. Here's my stream https://twitch.tv/mouseboii

I'd love to make more gw2 content but it's just not doable for me after this point onward.

Change my mind.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@"Gwaihir.1745" said:Also people arguing that skilled groups basically = running a transfuse necro, what? There's literally FA guilds dedicated the ressing that run nomads theives and transfuse necros. Their spellbreakers can miss every burst and be the worst possible players but they wont get killed they'll get stealth insta ressed until they actually so something right. There's no skill involved in the current downstate."There's no skill involved in this thing people build around strategically utilizing" I say with no sense of irony whatsoever.

[volpenvieh.3201]

I used to command a 3-5 man havoc group not too long ago and we often were able to fight much larger groups because we handled our downs much better than the enemy. I'm assuming that bigger groups often take less care of their downs because they think that they already have a huge advantage so downstates can actually become an advantage for (well organized) smaller groups.

Also as ele/warrior main, having no downstate forces me to play way less aggressive. Downstate has been a part of this game for such a long time, that it has actually become part of my subconcious decision making whether it's worth taking the risk of going down if I can give my team an advantage by doing so. Of course I'll only take the risk if I think that my team will be able to rezz me afterwards. Does keeping an existing mechanic as backup plan on my mind make me a bad player? I don't think so.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@The Game Slayer.7632 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Farout.8207" said:Just curious who all would be for making no downstate permanent. I was skeptical when Anet first mentioned it but now I really miss it. It was a blast and allowed me to

win some outnumbered fights

that I most likely would have lost otherwise. What exactly is the point of downstate anyway?

No. First, any

idea implemented into the game should be balanced around balance scenarios

. If anything the reason you gave is why we need a downstate. In general, no downstate favors burst, and

twitchy game play

. This is regardless if it is "blobbing" or "roaming."

Second, the point of downstate is just that,

an extra chance to survive/fight back

. If players are not accounting for a mechanic that has been around for 5 years into their strategy then you're going to be at a disadvantage. Personally, I'd remove the auto-rally aspect but that's irrelevant to this response.

Third, if it hasn't been obvious this is a casual game mode. It is persistent 24/7, and a threeway. Those two big things suggest it isn't going to cater to intense competitive additions to please players with more reflex (usually younger people), so any comments relating to "skill" can mostly be ignored given

twitchy game play

can be correlated to age or at the very least veterans that built up their muscle memory. If people are going to keep complaining that the game is dying then you need elements that are going to increase new players, not ones that give little feed back on failure or a chance to survive. If the new players always lose they stop playing, thus we have less people to fight/ppt. Sort of like the relationship of a small rat and big rat when play fighting. Despite be capable of winning 100%, the big rat will intentionally lose 25% of the time so the weaker rat will keep playing.

It was an interesting short term burst of activity for sure, but by no means should be long term. If your only reasoning is to win a 1v1+X fantasy this isn't sufficient for me.

Change my mind.

D:

I've heard about that rat study. It's extremely interesting. The problem is this though: Downstate saves my opponent from death about 80-90% of the time when I'm outnumbered. Not 25%.

Mmm I wasn't trying to be super accurate about the numbers, but rather the idea that people do give up eventually especially if given little feedback as to why they lost. Ignoring that our perceptions are anecdotally it is all we have to use here. Far better than the plethora of 1 vs. W.E. Is this perspective you draw from during roaming or blobbing? If they're getting auto-rallied 80% of the time in blob fights then I agree we should disable auto rally as that is better/easier than removing downstate.

It's why a young veteran player like myself hasn't touched gw2 for a while before no downstate, and hasn't touched after either.

"Young veteran" is an oxymoron to me. Confusing by what you mean. You're a veteran for not playing much? Luckily this part is probably just semantics so feel free to explain. Note: This account is my eu that I logged in back when new forums started...my NA account is much older. D:

Good luck without your veteran players. No one to make exceptional guides, streams, videos, or content for all you new players. No downstate was the most fun I've ever had in this game, hands down. But I'm not coming back unless something radical about downstate is changed. Too much powercreep. Too much power revives and insta rezzes and not enough impact strikes and gyro stomps.

I don't have the opinion that teaching (even basic things) is solely on players to do it. In fact ANET fails at this entirely. I am not refuting if people did or didn't have fun with that event. However, I am not convinced it would have kept people long after (keep in mind the reward boast did draw non-WvW's out too). We should run a week with the reward boast just to check...for cyance. Although I do recall tickets being a big initial draw that could be compared to.

Finally, you are onto the crux of the problem that I can actually agree with: powercreep. Since HoT, power creep has exacerbated in both directions of "sustain" and "damage." At one point the boon sharing bunkering GvGs were completely mind numbing to watch (or play). Even earlier than that I remember Rev being over-tuned for ranged damage. Both of which carried over into WvW itself. Sadly. Downstate or no downstate isn't the powercreep, but rather it's those examples you gave.

My reasoning isn't so that I feel better about myself when I win 1vX, but rather, so that I can continue to play the game to help everyone else out. I'm just going to move on to dead by daylight, overwatch, minecraft and others.

I'd love to make more gw2 content but it's just not doable for me after this point onward.

Change my mind.

I'm not going to change your mind. If your reason truly is to help everyone else out (teach players to play) then this isn't a good game for that. Even if you aren't a game dev it is easily observably that many game design decisions feel like

. In short, new and better things are introduced that invalidate or reduce the effectiveness of previous things.

Now. Try continually teaching things to players on youtube (or even Twitch as you linked) whereby your video can be outdated by some new expansion or living story update or balance shift. That's lost effort if you feel your videos get "outdated" by the whims of ANET. Maybe you're fine with potentially short term relevance with respect to what you're showing off. Such changes do mean more content creation (look at Woodenpotatoes old vids, they did still get some use). I just don't see Guild Wars 2 WvW being a good fit since it's only 1/3 of the game at best. Furthermore, the amount of spam and visual clutter hold it back from being appealing to observers... To that aim stick to those other games if teaching is your purpose. Those games benefit from having greater clarity, and maybe more stability when it comes to game design decisions.

[The Game Slayer.7632]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@The Game Slayer.7632 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"Farout.8207" said:Just curious who all would be for making no downstate permanent. I was skeptical when Anet first mentioned it but now I really miss it. It was a blast and allowed me to

win some outnumbered fights

that I most likely would have lost otherwise. What exactly is the point of downstate anyway?

No. First, any

idea implemented into the game should be balanced around balance scenarios

. If anything the reason you gave is why we need a downstate. In general, no downstate favors burst, and

twitchy game play

. This is regardless if it is "blobbing" or "roaming."

Second, the point of downstate is just that,

an extra chance to survive/fight back

. If players are not accounting for a mechanic that has been around for 5 years into their strategy then you're going to be at a disadvantage. Personally, I'd remove the auto-rally aspect but that's irrelevant to this response.

Third, if it hasn't been obvious this is a casual game mode. It is persistent 24/7, and a threeway. Those two big things suggest it isn't going to cater to intense competitive additions to please players with more reflex (usually younger people), so any comments relating to "skill" can mostly be ignored given

twitchy game play

can be correlated to age or at the very least veterans that built up their muscle memory. If people are going to keep complaining that the game is dying then you need elements that are going to increase new players, not ones that give little feed back on failure or a chance to survive. If the new players always lose they stop playing, thus we have less people to fight/ppt. Sort of like the relationship of a small rat and big rat when play fighting. Despite be capable of winning 100%, the big rat will intentionally lose 25% of the time so the weaker rat will keep playing.

It was an interesting short term burst of activity for sure, but by no means should be long term. If your only reasoning is to win a 1v1+X fantasy this isn't sufficient for me.

Change my mind.

D:

I've heard about that rat study. It's extremely interesting. The problem is this though: Downstate saves my opponent from death about 80-90% of the time when I'm outnumbered. Not 25%.

Mmm I wasn't trying to be super accurate about the numbers, but rather the idea that

people do give up eventually especially if given little feedback as to why they lost

. Ignoring that our perceptions are anecdotally it is all we have to use here. Far better than the plethora of 1 vs. W.E. Is this perspective you draw from during roaming or blobbing? If they're getting auto-rallied 80% of the time in blob fights then I agree we should disable auto rally as that is better/easier than removing downstate.

It's why a young veteran player like myself hasn't touched gw2 for a while before no downstate, and hasn't touched after either.

"Young veteran" is an oxymoron to me. Confusing by what you mean. You're a veteran for not playing much? Luckily this part is probably just semantics so feel free to explain. Note: This account is my eu that I logged in back when new forums started...my NA account is much older. D:

Good luck without your veteran players. No one to make exceptional guides, streams, videos, or content for all you new players. No downstate was the most fun I've ever had in this game, hands down. But I'm not coming back unless something radical about downstate is changed.

Too much powercreep

. Too much power revives and insta rezzes and not enough impact strikes and gyro stomps.

I don't have the opinion that teaching (even basic things) is solely on players to do it.

In fact ANET fails at this entirely

. I am not refuting if people did or didn't have fun with that event. However, I am not convinced it would have kept people long after (keep in mind the reward boast did draw non-WvW's out too). We should run a week with the reward boast just to check...for cyance. Although I do recall tickets being a big initial draw that could be compared to.

Finally, you are onto the crux of the problem that I can actually agree with:

powercreep.

Since HoT, power creep has exacerbated in both directions of "sustain" and "damage." At one point the boon sharing bunkering GvGs were completely mind numbing to watch (or play). Even earlier than that I remember Rev being over-tuned for ranged damage. Both of which carried over into WvW itself. Sadly. Downstate or no downstate isn't the powercreep, but rather it's those examples you gave.

My reasoning isn't so that I feel better about myself when I win 1vX, but rather, so that I can continue to play the game to help everyone else out. I'm just going to move on to dead by daylight, overwatch, minecraft and others.

I'd love to make more gw2 content but it's just not doable for me after this point onward.

Change my mind.

I'm not going to change your mind.

If your reason truly is to help everyone else out (teach players to play) then this isn't a good game for that. Even if you aren't a game dev it is easily observably that many game design decisions feel like

. In short, new and better things are introduced that invalidate or reduce the effectiveness of previous things.

Now. Try continually teaching things to players on youtube (or even Twitch as you linked) whereby your video can be outdated by some new expansion or living story update or balance shift. That's lost effort if you feel your videos get "outdated" by the whims of ANET. Maybe you're fine with potentially short term relevance with respect to what you're showing off. Such changes do mean more content creation (look at Woodenpotatoes old vids, they did still get some use). I just don't see Guild Wars 2 WvW being a good fit since it's only 1/3 of the game at best. Furthermore, the amount of spam and visual clutter hold it back from being appealing to observers... To that aim stick to those other games if teaching is your purpose. Those games benefit from having greater clarity, and maybe more stability when it comes to game design decisions.

1- Rats: When I'm in 1v4 situations, I'm easily able to get 1 or 2 downs. During the no downstate week, I was able to successfully get rewarded for my hard work put into being good at this game. With downstate, all of my hard work is constantly negated in outnumbered situations. (Which is the vast majority of situations.) I can get a down but if there are 3 people nearby when it happens, they can just walk over and press f. Coolbeans. Fun. Doesn't matter how good I am, in most situations I'm not rewarded. The weaker rats (newer players) get saved by downstate so incredibly often in these scenarios. If all you have for your veteran/skilled players is a constant game mechanic that prevents you from being rewarded most of the time, then there is no fun to be had.

2- Young veteran: I'm a competitive young person, but a veteran in gw2. Played since launch, but I'm about to turn 21 yrs old this summer.

3- Veterans in gw2: Look, one thing is clear. You need your veterans in a game in order to give newer players some direction. There is dire need of content creation for gw2 with regards to pvp/wvw. Every single successful game has this dialogue. Gw2 has lost that dialogue a long time ago. Here's my evidence (albeit not very strong) that veterans would stay and put effort into pvp again; I streamed for around 20 hours in a busy schedule during no downstate week. You could make the argument that I wouldn't stay for a couple months afterwards, but it's a very weak one. One thing is absolutely clear: people like to play games they find fun in. If, as a veteran, I found a lot of pleasure playing in this type of event, there's no reason to suggest that I wouldn't want to play it 'just because'.

4- competition: Look, the final point of my case really just comes down to this. I lean towards games that are more competitive. Gw2 has an opportunity to foster a more competitive pvp mode by radically changing one of the core mechanics. If they want to stay casual, that's fine. But I don't want to hear the argument that says that it's better for everyone if we keep downstate. (Not saying you're saying that.) It's better for veterans if you remove it, and if it's better for veterans and keeps them in the scene then that has a huge effect on the newer players who want to grow.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

So many casuls want this pathetic mechanic back. Its just sad seeing this...