GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Phosphorite.6192]

@"Rowan.7629" said:Beyond disappointed with how this situation was handled. JP was perhaps out of line in how she reacted to the situation, but it absolutely did not warrant such a severe response. This wasn't about what she said to Deroir- Deroir himselfdid not want this and was not a catalyst in this mess. This was a decision fueled by an external lynch mob (a lynch mob that, not unsurprisingly, was bolstered by folks from td and KiA whose interests in a game like GW2 absolutely do not go beyond "LUL triggered s j w snowflakes"). The way y'all has chosen to deal with this, coupled with the lack of any meaningful condemnation towards the behaviour being displayed by the so-called "community," is absolutely damning. Silence is not a neutral stance: it is a very direct and clear message.

I'd always taken pride in the GW2 community and ANet. The game's playerbase is diverse and folks are generally proud to display that. ANet itself in years past has always seemed to take a strong "take no kitten" attitude wrt bigotry trying to worm its way into their game, both in shutting down GG-style gamerbros and in how the narrative specifically uplifts minorities. Such a heavyhanded response, seemingly at the behest of a swarming mob more interested in teaching Dirty S J W s a lesson or what the heck ever, is completely disgusting and flies in the face of what made GW2 such a unique experience. It's not a decision you can take back (and even if y'all wanted to: I can't imagine either PF or JP would even humour the notion after how they've been treated), but maybe at least it's one that will be learned from. When the options are "PR issues an apology to Deroir & life goes on" or "humour the KiA folks swarming the subreddit & our forums with sockpuppets and arbitrarily fire 2 people"... the decision should be obvious.

Agreed.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@"TSS.4605" said:I really don't understand how people can believe that they 'won' with this outcome. Two peoples careers destroyed, devs will probably stop their social media committment and a big fuzz over nothing.How can anyone assume to measure a person based on their reaction when Reddit-Police is on a case?

Also, this is about sexism. Look at some of the comments here. I am not talking about the initial "Twitter-Affair". But do people really believe that this did not blow up solely because JP played the "I am a woman"-card? After that, the vultures started flying in.

If this is what the Guild Wars 2 community is, then I don't even want to play this game anymore. I know that no one here cares about that, but it's sad that this is punishment for the other devs as well.

So please explain what was in the converse from deroir that was in any was sexist for her to retaliate like an entitled ignoramus.There quite simply was no reason to bring that kind of S J W malarkey into it other than for her effect in an attempt to get others to bandy to her defence... which to a point worked as PF got tangled up in it as well.JP is clearly someone that gets insanely triggered by the smallest of critiques whilst working within a position that sees pretty much everything she does pushed out for public scrutiny.. cos ya know we like stuff we play in GW2 and we dislike stuff we play.. and sometimes the community asks questions, offers opinions and seeks clarity. She offered that platform and couldn't handle the critique, in fact she didn't even attempt any kind of reasoned discussion, which is what deroir was seeking..JP might like to consider herself a "professional storywriter" but it's a shame she cant act like one.What's that saying... if you can't stand the heat.... well ANET helped her out with that with some swift action, shame PF got himself caught in the gender web she tried to spin.

[Sanity Obscure.6054]

@Zaklex.6308 said:I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

Free speech and having your own time to express yourself are absolutely a necessity of life, but most jobs have clear guidelines about what you can post on social media, and for good reason. If you are the type to deride your customers, speak badly about your employers, or end up in the news for ill reasons, they will think twice before hiring you.

This is why just about any job that isn't minimum wage will background check or even have a private investigator research you (at least here in the states.) Again they will want to ensure that you are have integrity and are not quick to anger, because you can damage their brand/message/cause and drive off customers and clients.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@"Rowan.7629" said:Beyond disappointed with how this situation was handled. JP was perhaps out of line in how she reacted to the situation, but it absolutely did not warrant such a severe response. This wasn't about what she said to Deroir- Deroir himselfdid not want this and was not a catalyst in this mess. This was a decision fueled by an external lynch mob (a lynch mob that, not unsurprisingly, was bolstered by folks from td and KiA whose interests in a game like GW2 absolutely do not go beyond "LUL triggered s j w snowflakes"). The way y'all has chosen to deal with this, coupled with the lack of any meaningful condemnation towards the behaviour being displayed by the so-called "community," is absolutely damning. Silence is not a neutral stance: it is a very direct and clear message.

I'd always taken pride in the GW2 community and ANet. The game's playerbase is diverse and folks are generally proud to display that. ANet itself in years past has always seemed to take a strong "take no kitten" attitude wrt bigotry trying to worm its way into their game, both in shutting down GG-style gamerbros and in how the narrative specifically uplifts minorities. Such a heavyhanded response, seemingly at the behest of a swarming mob more interested in teaching Dirty S J W s a lesson or what the heck ever, is completely disgusting and flies in the face of what made GW2 such a unique experience. It's not a decision you can take back (and even if y'all wanted to: I can't imagine either PF or JP would even humour the notion after how they've been treated), but maybe at least it's one that will be learned from. When the options are "PR issues an apology to Deroir & life goes on" or "humour the KiA folks swarming the subreddit & our forums with sockpuppets and arbitrarily fire 2 people"... the decision should be obvious.

Maybe it was asked internally and she refused?You can't know that.

So what if she refuses, what would you do?You're aware she's not one bit sorry for the rudeness against the content creator, right?

Also what is kia/td? Not everyone knows about the troll brands.

@Sanity Obscure.6054 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

Free speech and having your own time to express yourself are absolutely a necessity of life, but most jobs have clear guidelines about what you can post on social media, and for good reason. If you are the type to deride your customers, speak badly about your employers, or end up in the news for ill reasons, they will think twice before hiring you.

This is why just about any job that isn't minimum wage will background check or even privately investigate you (at least here in the states.) Again they will want to ensure that you are have integrity and are not quick to anger, because you can damage their brand/message/cause and drive off customers and clients.

Yep. Common sense, Which again makes me wonder who here actually read their contract when they sign...

[Dante.1763]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@muffi.3964 said:

@thruine.8510 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

Do you have any examples? I don't believe in racism towards whites exist either. In theory, yes it could which seems to be what you're offering. But lots of theories can exist and you are right. If you have power over someone and exercise it against them based on race its racism regardless of color. In theory. Its not what white people are always the oppressors but that there are plenty examples of this being the case since the time of slavery. Its been a systematic problem since to the point in 2018 we are finally getting to a point where its not a prevalent as it once was. I'm sure it still exists but now its in bad taste which hasn't been the case not that long ago. But still, we need to see racism against whites. And even then its probably never going to measure up to the racism FROM whites we have way to many examples of.

Is it so hard for guys to stick to common openly agreed upon definitions? ur being racist here and I'm gonna report you for it btw.

Why didn't anyone tell me the definition of "racism" has been changed? When did this happen? God, I feel old.

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

It does not say one bit that it only applies to a certain skin color, and it cant be used against another one.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@muffi.3964 said:

@thruine.8510 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

Do you have any examples? I don't believe in racism towards whites exist either. In theory, yes it could which seems to be what you're offering. But lots of theories can exist and you are right. If you have power over someone and exercise it against them based on race its racism regardless of color. In theory. Its not what white people are always the oppressors but that there are plenty examples of this being the case since the time of slavery. Its been a systematic problem since to the point in 2018 we are finally getting to a point where its not a prevalent as it once was. I'm sure it still exists but now its in bad taste which hasn't been the case not that long ago. But still, we need to see racism against whites. And even then its probably never going to measure up to the racism FROM whites we have way to many examples of.

Is it so hard for guys to stick to common openly agreed upon definitions? ur being racist here and I'm gonna report you for it btw.

Why didn't anyone tell me the definition of "racism" has been changed? When did this happen? God, I feel old.

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

It does not say one bit that it only applies to a certain skin color, and it cant be used against another one.

Well that's what I thought but apparently not everyone agrees at this point in time.

[thruine.8510]

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

At-will employment is a term used in U.S. labor law for contractual relationships in which an employee can be dismissed by an employer for any reason (that is, without having to establish "just cause" for termination), and without warning, as long as the reason is not illegal.(e.g. firing because of the employee's race)

Obviously given the person in question any kind of legal action won't be about race but I don't think any of us would be surprised if its not gender based. Just think, some jury could be pouring over tweets and deleted tweets along online magazines. I suppose its up to however far she wants to take it. Honestly, I suspect if she really has talent she'll be fine without ArenaNet as it seemed they hired her knowing exactly what they were hiring.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

@thruine.8510 said:

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

At-will employment is a term used in U.S. labor law for contractual relationships in which an employee can be dismissed by an employer for any reason (that is, without having to establish "just cause" for termination), and without warning, as long as the reason is not illegal.(e.g. firing because of the employee's race)

Obviously given the person in question any kind of legal action won't be about race but I don't think any of us would be surprised if its not gender based. Just think, some jury could be pouring over tweets and deleted tweets along online magazines. I suppose its up to however far she wants to take it. Honestly, I suspect if she really has talent she'll be fine without ArenaNet as it seemed they hired her knowing exactly what they were hiring.

It's simple, she called a customer a rando kittenhat... you dont need to see much more to realize it was not because of gender.

[bwillb.2165]

Best decision ArenaNet has ever made.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@"Rowan.7629" said:Beyond disappointed with how this situation was handled. JP was perhaps out of line in how she reacted to the situation, but it absolutely did not warrant such a severe response. This wasn't about what she said to Deroir- Deroir himselfdid not want this and was not a catalyst in this mess. This was a decision fueled by an external lynch mob (a lynch mob that, not unsurprisingly, was bolstered by folks from td and KiA whose interests in a game like GW2 absolutely do not go beyond "LUL triggered s j w snowflakes"). The way y'all has chosen to deal with this, coupled with the lack of any meaningful condemnation towards the behaviour being displayed by the so-called "community," is absolutely damning. Silence is not a neutral stance: it is a very direct and clear message.

I'd always taken pride in the GW2 community and ANet. The game's playerbase is diverse and folks are generally proud to display that. ANet itself in years past has always seemed to take a strong "take no kitten" attitude wrt bigotry trying to worm its way into their game, both in shutting down GG-style gamerbros and in how the narrative specifically uplifts minorities. Such a heavyhanded response, seemingly at the behest of a swarming mob more interested in teaching Dirty S J W s a lesson or what the heck ever, is completely disgusting and flies in the face of what made GW2 such a unique experience. It's not a decision you can take back (and even if y'all wanted to: I can't imagine either PF or JP would even humour the notion after how they've been treated), but maybe at least it's one that will be learned from. When the options are "PR issues an apology to Deroir & life goes on" or "humour the KiA folks swarming the subreddit & our forums with sockpuppets and arbitrarily fire 2 people"... the decision should be obvious.

So .. again please show us all where in any of deroirs dialogue was he anything other than respectful and seeking to engage in meaningful conversation with a so call pro who put out work related content on her twitter account for public critique.. where in any of that was deroir being even remotely gender intolerant and inks for that matter.To add.. you seem so certain it was the so called lynch mob community activists that got them fired.. so were you parley to the internal discussions back at ANET, do you know with any certainty there were not already some undercurrents to this issue with JP.. .. I will save you the time and answer it for you - NO you don't.JP went out of her way to verbally abuse an ANET partner who is respected within the community and then have the nerve to try an play the gender card out of the blue completely unwarranted and continued her vitriol long after deroir had respectfully left JP to bathe in her own salt.

ANET will likely hand out a sincere apology to those JP acted so disgracefully unprofessional to, but it should be JP that actually offers up that same humble pie.

[Eevee.9107]

I really, really hate speaking up on heated topics, especially on forums. But this isn't something I can feel good about ignoring, or even keeping to private discussions, because it has potential far-reaching repercussions.

Was J Price's comment harsh? Perhaps. Did she come off as unapproachable? Certainly. But it's downright cruel to expect someone to be endlessly patient and approachable on their own, personal twitter. I don't care if you recognise her as an employee; her time, and her page, are her own. Are you going to demand the cashier and your local grocery store be fired because they didn't help you find that soup brand you were looking for when they weren't on the clock? I'd say you were embarrassing yourself if you did, and I fully believe you are embarrassing yourself if you were one of the people calling for Price's firing.

She may be one of many people working for anet, but she's just that - a person, who is allowed to have opinions and, yes, sometimes be annoyed with you if you tell her how to do her job.

I -also- fully believe that firing someone should be a last resort, and never the immediate action except in extreme cases. That's someone's livelihood, and no doubt being publicly fired for this is going to make it difficult for her to get back on track in this industry. Do none of you know how hard it is to be suddenly out of a job, with no time to find a new one?

[Ace Kenshader.1253]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@"Rowan.7629" said:Beyond disappointed with how this situation was handled. JP was perhaps out of line in how she reacted to the situation, but it

absolutely did not warrant such a severe response

. This wasn't about what she said to Deroir- Deroir himself

did not want this

and was not a catalyst in this mess. This was a decision fueled by an external lynch mob (a lynch mob that, not unsurprisingly, was bolstered by folks from td and KiA whose interests in a game like GW2 absolutely do not go beyond "LUL triggered s j w snowflakes"). The way y'all has chosen to deal with this, coupled with the lack of any meaningful condemnation towards the behaviour being displayed by the so-called "community," is absolutely

damning

. Silence is not a neutral stance: it is a very direct and clear message.

I'd always taken pride in the GW2 community and ANet. The game's playerbase is diverse and folks are generally proud to display that. ANet itself in years past has always seemed to take a strong "take no kitten" attitude wrt bigotry trying to worm its way into their game, both in shutting down GG-style gamerbros and in how the narrative specifically uplifts minorities. Such a heavyhanded response, seemingly at the behest of a swarming mob more interested in teaching Dirty S J W s a lesson or what the heck ever, is completely disgusting and flies in the face of what made GW2 such a unique experience. It's not a decision you can take back (and even if y'all wanted to: I can't imagine either PF or JP would even humour the notion after how they've been treated), but maybe at least it's one that will be learned from. When the options are "PR issues an apology to Deroir & life goes on" or "humour the KiA folks swarming the subreddit & our forums with sockpuppets and arbitrarily fire 2 people"... the decision should be obvious.

Maybe it was asked internally and she refused?You can't know that.

So what if she refuses, what would you do?You're aware she's not one bit sorry for the rudeness against the content creator, right?

Also what is

kia/td?

Not everyone knows about the troll brands.

Kia and td I believe are /r/KotakuInAction and /r/The_Donald , very popular alt-right subreddits on the site that are pretty much known to make actual gamers look like human trash.

[twobears.5713]

@"Rowan.7629" said:Beyond disappointed with how this situation was handled. JP was perhaps out of line in how she reacted to the situation, but it absolutely did not warrant such a severe response. This wasn't about what she said to Deroir- Deroir himselfdid not want this and was not a catalyst in this mess. This was a decision fueled by an external lynch mob (a lynch mob that, not unsurprisingly, was bolstered by folks from td and KiA whose interests in a game like GW2 absolutely do not go beyond "LUL triggered s j w snowflakes"). The way y'all has chosen to deal with this, coupled with the lack of any meaningful condemnation towards the behaviour being displayed by the so-called "community," is absolutely damning. Silence is not a neutral stance: it is a very direct and clear message.

I'd always taken pride in the GW2 community and ANet. The game's playerbase is diverse and folks are generally proud to display that. ANet itself in years past has always seemed to take a strong "take no kitten" attitude wrt bigotry trying to worm its way into their game, both in shutting down GG-style gamerbros and in how the narrative specifically uplifts minorities. Such a heavyhanded response, seemingly at the behest of a swarming mob more interested in teaching Dirty S J W s a lesson or what the heck ever, is completely disgusting and flies in the face of what made GW2 such a unique experience. It's not a decision you can take back (and even if y'all wanted to: I can't imagine either PF or JP would even humour the notion after how they've been treated), but maybe at least it's one that will be learned from. When the options are "PR issues an apology to Deroir & life goes on" or "humour the KiA folks swarming the subreddit & our forums with sockpuppets and arbitrarily fire 2 people"... the decision should be obvious.

I feel that JP's fate was unavoidable due to the manner in which she responded, but PF's termination was clearly a sign of bended knee to the far right. This has emboldened and vindicated them, and that has troubling implications for this community. The powers that be need to think long and hard about just who they are making these games for and just who they want driving the proverbial bus. If things continue as they have been over the past few days I can see the player base getting a lot smaller. I know that I have no desire to play the alt right's MMO of choice.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@"Eevee.9107" said:I really, really hate speaking up on heated topics, especially on forums. But this isn't something I can feel good about ignoring, or even keeping to private discussions, because it has potential far-reaching repercussions.

Was J Price's comment harsh? Perhaps. Did she come off as unapproachable? Certainly. But it's downright cruel to expect someone to be endlessly patient and approachable on their own, personal twitter. I don't care if you recognise her as an employee; her time, and her page, are her own. Are you going to demand the cashier and your local grocery store be fired because they didn't help you find that soup brand you were looking for when they weren't on the clock? I'd say you were embarrassing yourself if you did, and I fully believe you are embarrassing yourself if you were one of the people calling for Price's firing.

She may be one of many people working for anet, but she's just that - a person, who is allowed to have opinions and, yes, sometimes be annoyed with you if you tell her how to do her job.

I -also- fully believe that firing someone should be a last resort, and never the immediate action except in extreme cases. That's someone's livelihood, and no doubt being publicly fired for this is going to make it difficult for her to get back on track in this industry. Do none of you know how hard it is to be suddenly out of a job, with no time to find a new one?

She was in control of her twitter account not anyone else... she chose to push work related content out for public consumption. If she didn't like the tweet form deroir or inks for that matter, all she had to do was ignore/block.. which she seemingly does on a regular basis.. sorry but there was no cruelness or expectation of patience.. just some respectful dialogue in response to a respectful tweet by deroir… instead he was berated and thrown the gender card for simply offering views an opinions in challenge to her "pro" tips SA

[Walhalla.5473]

@"Eevee.9107" said:I -also- fully believe that firing someone should be a last resort, and never the immediate action except in extreme cases. That's someone's livelihood, and no doubt being publicly fired for this is going to make it difficult for her to get back on track in this industry. Do none of you know how hard it is to be suddenly out of a job, with no time to find a new one?

The thing is. We only know what happened in public not internally. Perhaps Anet offered her a second chance after apologizing etc and she declined or insulted her superior after this? I think there was a chance for JP to not loose her job after being called into MO's office, but seeing not how she feels about this whole disaster and tries to shift the blame onto the community and anet, I guess there was only this choice.

It is hard for people who suddenly loose their job, and instant termination is never a win but there are some things that can get you fired instantly, even in an environment that abolishes "hire&fire", and causing a big PR-Disaster by posting insults out of malicious intent and double down on it can result in an instant termination ( people have been fired for less in places where employees have much more rights than in the US ). And all I have to say is, that she is the only one to blame for. I'm glad that Anet took action made sure that there were consequences, and they were logical and neccesary but I'm not celebrating that due to that 2 Devs lost their job.

I hoped that she learned from this, thought about it, doing some self reflection and get a new job as a better person. But seeing now how she feels about it..... I think people will now really start to celebrate her termination. Which I don't look forward to it.

[thruine.8510]

@Dante.1763 said:

Well, technically racism against white people is a thing, just not in white majority and plurality countries like the US and Western nations. In Africa on the other hand, where white people are the minority, it is very much a thing. Just look at Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe.

I agree with the rest of your comment though, just felt the need to point that out.

just one. But in countries where white people are minorities it wouldnt surprise me at all if it was a very real thing.

Raizel (sp?) I saw your example too. I was only considering the USA and really the Western world itelf. While Africa can make clear cases it does tend to be overshadowed by South Africa's history and I wasn't even aware of Zimbabwe having this. However, I don't think us white people have to worry. And that's really the problem with keeping the idea of white racism or racism against whites (whatever you call it) is that it seems to be used as some type of warning. Its just so unlikely to happen here in the US in the next twenty years. After we become the minority, a true minority, we might have lots of cases of it. Given human nature is probably guaranteed, However, its still a non-isssue and made up fantasy to me. At least in this country. But rap music is a much better as its in this country and one of the few examples which I did agree could exist. I don't think its publicized (and I'm making the assumption its common which I don't really know) and it would be interesting to see how the white rapper struggles against such oppression and if the oppressors are feeling a little like having some payback against whites. I'd watch that doc at least. But thanks to both of you. I'm probably sticking with it ain't real though at least as something the whole country needs to work through as we did with the racism from whites. But the rap music thing is really interesting. I'll have to check into that more.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@thruine.8510 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

Do you have any examples? I don't believe in racism towards whites exist either. In theory, yes it could which seems to be what you're offering. But lots of theories can exist and you are right. If you have power over someone and exercise it against them based on race its racism regardless of color. In theory. Its not what white people are always the oppressors but that there are plenty examples of this being the case since the time of slavery. Its been a systematic problem since to the point in 2018 we are finally getting to a point where its not a prevalent as it once was. I'm sure it still exists but now its in bad taste which hasn't been the case not that long ago. But still, we need to see racism against whites. And even then its probably never going to measure up to the racism FROM whites we have way to many examples of.

Racism isn't restricted to slavery, nor the converse. Greek and Roman people kept slaves and servants of the same ethnicity, and many of which were just skilled tradesman, accountants, or other intellectuals. It's effectively the driving force and foundation of the caste system in India. Native tribes in Africa have and still do enslave neighboring tribes when raiding villages and fighting over territory. Albinos in African countries are frequently murdered publicly. The Irish and Italian people were seen as lesser citizens in the Free States in the US until the 20th century, and people of Jewish ancestry (or possessing characteristics of such, I.E. hair) were seen as untrustworthy and inferior beings, with antisemitism still running rampant today.

I think what a lot of people fail to differentiate is the difference between racism and institutionalized racism. The former can exist in any fashion and is largely based on declaring and/or acting on bigoted views - abusing any such privileges of power for any gain regardless of scale or purpose. The latter takes a much grander history of oppression and lack of opportunity for a given group of people to advance in society as a whole. I'm going to trust your ability to tell the difference by looking at some of the aforementioned examples, but simple racism is the precursor.

Judging anyone by physical characteristics or LGBTQ+ alignment or what have you is bigoted.

If we can treat everyone with the same respect and dignity, these problems resolve themselves. If we can operate under the assumption people do not mean harm when they talk to us, these problems only surface when they are blatantly obvious. "Be on the defensive but only defend yourself when you are struck." And when we get told we have offended someone or hurt them, we should honor their claim and apologize or be willing to legitimately ask "why?" and learn from one another.

The trend of unwillingness to talk and learn and respect all people is dangerous. The fear of undergoing the process of what it is to hurt and understand and forgive. How is learning possible if our understanding of the world can never be challenged or contemplated? If we can never garner feedback on our thoughts or question and reach conclusions rather than just be told what to think?

[Crab Fear.1624]

Welp...adios. Maybe they will kill off Taimi and Braham now.

[thruine.8510]

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

Why didn't anyone tell me the definition of "racism" has been changed? When did this happen? God, I feel old.

I don't engage with a reported individual but I'm generally curious what was I said concerning racism was wrong? I checked Google to see if I misspoke which didn't seem to be the case. As well as stated how I've always come to know the term. Now I can see how disagreeing with me can cause certain types of responses but I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear in this.

Hey, look. I get the last word ;) But I'm going offline for the night and thought I'd thank everyone for a heated yet interesting discussion. I know we had some posters who just wanted to play the Joker and watch everything burn but for the most part its been really interesting. And the second day I've stayed in the forum rather than the game. I think we've heard lots of viewpoints and I'd loved to have had the discussion in a chatroom rather than the forums given the time delays and such. But overall, I think both sides make valid points.

I understand each side can't see the other's point of view but I've tried to. I've tried to keep my emotion out of it which really wasn't that difficult (once I just ignored or reported the trolls who tried to get a rise out of me) as I'm truly unmoved with the outcome. I find it incredibly interesting how different one incident can look to different people. Even ArenaNet themselves are seen differently. Some as a savior and others as weak-minded. I think both are probably a little overboard but I love heated debate. I usually will get more into the fighting for pure fighting than making points. I personally have tried to offer my own insight and commentary without being totally on a side

I'd really like to support JP just based on the guys first response to her. I know others don't see it that way but I also think we have to accept she did allow this to overshadow how big of a response he had. But it also seems she was receiving more than what we got to see which I'm not totally onboard that warranted the later comments. I can't help but think surely she knew this was a battle she couldn't win so why keep firing. I'd have just left it at a certain point. But her choice I guess. However I did want folks to know I did appreciate everyone's comments even if we all don't feel the same.

Not sure the thread will be here tomorrow, I'm hoping it is, but just in case I wanted to say that. I think we might gain more insight if we take the other sides point of view and if you think she got what she deserved imagine yourself in her position at that time. And the Darior (sp?) guy, imagine you're in his place and look back at that first post to see if you see possible issue with it. As well as ArenaNet's. Did they have other ways of handling it? Why did it get so bad? And are female developers unduly put to task by players and fans? And how do you move forward with one side praising you and the other condemning. Good night and hope to see everyone again tomorrow. Well, most of everyone ;) Again, thanks.

[fivebrights.7359]

Regardless of whether JP's firing was warranted or not, given her clear contempt I can't help but question how appropriate or sensible it would be to have on someone producing content potentially tainted with spite for its players. Not a healthy situation and not an appealing thought.

[thequeenofbees.4250]

This whole situation is convoluted as heck, but I do think it's funny that Those Kinds of Gamers see this as a "victory against progressiveness" or whatever. Really, you think Arenanet is against progressiveness now because they fired two employees over a twitter fight? Have you played the game lately?

[BlueWolf.6327]

@Mike O Brien.4613 said:Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

Mo

This is disgusting. I was thinking about getting back into this game recently, but after seeing this response and what arena net values in a community, no thanks. Any company that refuses to defend its employees from a mob frenzy isn't worth supporting. You've just lost a customer for life.

[apharma.3741]

Considering how she's trying to twist the narrative by talking to some of the most biased journalists I've seen in a while and trying to rally fellow extreme left figures I would say this isn't over yet. I would urge people to stop hostility towards her and simply show Mo that you support his decision and that this person regardless of skill would not have fostered a pleasant community-developer interaction.

I stand with Mo.

[Zabi Zabi.3561]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Welp...adios. Maybe they will kill off Taimi and Braham now.

Please no she has grown (literally if you look at how small she was with the hair in the bow compared to now) as a character and I love how she doesn't let her disease keep her down!

Can't say much for Braham though...

[Chorazin.4107]

@"Rowan.7629" said:Beyond disappointed with how this situation was handled. JP was perhaps out of line in how she reacted to the situation, but it absolutely did not warrant such a severe response. This wasn't about what she said to Deroir- Deroir himselfdid not want this and was not a catalyst in this mess. This was a decision fueled by an external lynch mob (a lynch mob that, not unsurprisingly, was bolstered by folks from td and KiA whose interests in a game like GW2 absolutely do not go beyond "LUL triggered s j w snowflakes"). The way y'all has chosen to deal with this, coupled with the lack of any meaningful condemnation towards the behaviour being displayed by the so-called "community," is absolutely damning. Silence is not a neutral stance: it is a very direct and clear message.

I'd always taken pride in the GW2 community and ANet. The game's playerbase is diverse and folks are generally proud to display that. ANet itself in years past has always seemed to take a strong "take no kitten" attitude wrt bigotry trying to worm its way into their game, both in shutting down GG-style gamerbros and in how the narrative specifically uplifts minorities. Such a heavyhanded response, seemingly at the behest of a swarming mob more interested in teaching Dirty S J W s a lesson or what the heck ever, is completely disgusting and flies in the face of what made GW2 such a unique experience. It's not a decision you can take back (and even if y'all wanted to: I can't imagine either PF or JP would even humour the notion after how they've been treated), but maybe at least it's one that will be learned from. When the options are "PR issues an apology to Deroir & life goes on" or "humour the KiA folks swarming the subreddit & our forums with sockpuppets and arbitrarily fire 2 people"... the decision should be obvious.

Everyone on the internet is an ultracrepidarian, and especially so if you work in a creative sphere. Take the graphic designer who posted on the twitter thread, she worked in an all male office. But the line of questioning comes not because of gender, more that by nature everyone will have a difference of opinion when it comes to visual aesthetic. And by extension, any creative discipline from music to pottery making, to fashion, to, in this instance, creative writing.

Correct decision from MO, I begin to question whether some people here have actually held jobs with a modicum of responsibility in a corporate environment and the expectations of professional conduct that go with that. The response from a professional member of the creative team was appalling. This sort of interraction with a customer would not be acceptable even if the poster was irate and posting aggressively. But to have this sort of response to a line of reasonable inquiry looking to open dialogue in a public domain is baffling. As a representative of Anet you would be expected to conduct yourself in a professional manner at all times in public interractions with customers/clients.

As for the trolls that all jumped on the bandwagon, I agree that their behaviour was just as appalling, however they are representing themselves, not private enterprise, and this wagon was of JP's making, and certainly wouldnt have existed with a measured polite response. As I stated earlier, courtesy is freely given, it costs you nothing. A well constructed witty narrative response from JP to Deroir would have been a great way to have some discourse with a clear fan who is immersed in the story. Even some light banter with other posters, we see this kind of approach all the time on the GW2 forums by GG. We wouldnt be having this conversation if that was the path JP traversed, she opted for the dismissive, abusive approach and ignored the 'do not feed the trolls' signs posted seemingly at every bridge on the internet. She is free of course to act under her own agency, and rightfully so, but consequences are implicit in the way said agency is displayed.