Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Cyninja.2954]

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@"Malediktus.9250" said:It really does not matter if new players do not have the same options as veteran players. If I were a new player I would probably have different priorities than getting endgame skins. And if they really must have it right now they still have the option to trade 10 USD worth of gems to gold.

Of course it matters.. hardly a great advert for the game when newer players that reach max level are then thrown ridiculously slowarm collections that wont see them obtain what they want within a reasonable timeframe unless1 - they farm their free time away endlessly until they have enough wealth to afford the sigils, amalg gems and leather etc.2 - get hugely lucky with the Mystic forge in a reasonable timeframe... highly unlikely

3 - feel forced to play credit card wars.

Personally I wouldn't blame anyone for keeping their wallet firmly shut on this or feel frustrated enough by bait and hook creativity behind it all and simply leave the game.It's poor choice on ANETs part imo and only serves to hand more control of the TP to the few once again to manipulate supply and spoil what was actually some decent content.

I think a lot of players doing already the credit card wars when I look here :

https://www.gw2tp.com/gems

The gem price dropped to 25g for 100 gems (temporary ) why it is partially up gain ? Don't know perhaps some people saw this or the flippers trying to do a double flip.

Considering you need to first make up the 27-28% tax loss for double converting, a 29->25 gold drop is not sufficient to even cover the tax for flipping gold and gems. That drop is likely from a spike in gem to gold sales from people returning for the Living World Episode and the recovery is from increased gold to gem conversion due to cheap gems.

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

This indeed not funny and it will takes months to come to an acceptable price or even never like for the shoulders out of the winter fest where you need so far I remember 750 superior sigils of mischief (6000g atm). You could built them yourself but I calculated a minimum sum of 3000g.

http://dulfy.net/2015/12/15/gw2-winters-presence-guide/

It's 50 Sigils, not 750. Big difference and the collection has always cost around 600-700 gold to complete, even in the year it was added. The only change was in which items were expensive shifting to the Sigil of Mischief from the previous year. The overall cost remained the same. The only people who drew an advantage from this were those who had acquired the Sigils cheap one year without getting all the expensive items and then purchased the remaining items 1 year later (a very tiny fraction of the player base I might add).

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

The difference is those events there always some piece which is absurd expansive in those maps achievements we never saw that and the sigil seems to be chosen by Arena NET because it was so cheap so players didn't expect this price increase at all.

I don't know if Arean.NET just had a bad hand in this or 'marketing' because in some p2win MMO I often saw something similar with limited goods which are need for progress an already limited supply will be even more limited by market players and when possible in the game declaring war on another clan/gild on the server to disturb their farming/raiding. Then people buying gems to convert them into gold to buy those goods but the same players who generate the rare goods or flipping the goods buying then the gems up much cheaper . Market players then selling them again later(the others using them) and the publisher is happy because they are seeling their gems a lot.

Its not exactly what they are doing here but it smells a bit like it

Yes, there are OPTIONAL prestige items in this game which are very expensive. None of those are pay to win or required. If you want EVERYTHING then you have to either play a ton or spend money and convert those. Arenanet is not a non profit organization. They offer a close to free to play game with almost no significant cost to gear up and play, they do make expensive OPTIONAL cosmetic and prestige content though.

[Ana.2415]

The only thing that I don't like is that people who rushed everything the 1st day or people with some "info" could get the armor super cheap and now everybody have to pay 200g+. I mean, if Anet's intention was this armor to be expensive I wouldn't have cared but at least make it expensive for everybody in a fair way, like the griffon collection.

Now I have to wait months if I want that armor skin, while others are making profit of the situation. (Also don't choose a sigil again for an armor)

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story level up rewards and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Eros.6801 said:The cost for complete requiem collection are roughly ~100g plus elegy set it will end up somewhere at 120g but i think it totally worth it, both armor are well designed, i love it so much. You can also buy weapon that has the sigil in it and salvage, it risky but still work.

The final product is ascended, right?Anything below 150g or something is considered profitable as opposed to nornal ascended crafting

[anduriell.6280]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Eros.6801 said:The cost for complete requiem collection are roughly ~100g plus elegy set it will end up somewhere at 120g but i think it totally worth it, both armor are well designed, i love it so much. You can also buy weapon that has the sigil in it and salvage, it risky but still work.

The final product is ascended, right?Anything below 150g or something is considered profitable as opposed to nornal ascended craftingExotic. The result are exotics.Please now feel free to tell me about the 150 gold each piece.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Eros.6801 said:The cost for complete requiem collection are roughly ~100g plus elegy set it will end up somewhere at 120g but i think it totally worth it, both armor are well designed, i love it so much. You can also buy weapon that has the sigil in it and salvage, it risky but still work.

The final product is ascended, right?Anything below 150g or something is considered profitable as opposed to nornal ascended craftingExotic. The result are exotics.Please now feel free to tell me about the 150 gold each piece.

They said for a set, not a pieceBut agreed, that is a bit expensive for an exotic set.But hey, you’re paying for the flashy flashes, not the exotic function

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I disagree.. if the Armor set was priced at 300g.. like the way griffon was a fixed price.. there would be no issue.. everyone would pay the same and everyone had the opportunity to obtain it within a reasonable timeframe, even if some steps had gates.What you have is no fixed price for this and no reliable source of obtaining the sigils, therefore no reliable or evenly timely ability to complete the sets.. unless you bow to TP peer pressure and pay the gold monkey. It is an utterly grotesque way to push players towards gem sales and even then with a drip fed, TP baron controlled availability, those few thousand sigils available will not likely increase much while the demand massively outstrips that supply for many months to come... that is the crux of this post..It's how a few are able to totally control the massively inflated price of an item that has no possible way of out injecting the necessary volume to force price neutrality until the demand finally drops off as players either do complete it, don't bother completing it due to costs/timeframe, are pushed into other collections demanding the same level of farming intensity.. or leave the game entirely.Either way this way of injecting fun content then killing it with this malarkey will imo only hurt the game as it continues.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I disagree.. if the Armor set was priced at 300g.. like the way griffon was a fixed price.. there would be no issue.. everyone would pay the same and everyone had the opportunity to obtain it within a reasonable timeframe, even if some steps had gates.What you have is no fixed price for this and no reliable source of obtaining the sigils, therefore no reliable or evenly timely ability to complete the sets.. unless you bow to TP peer pressure and pay the gold monkey. It is an utterly grotesque way to push players towards gem sales and even then with a drip fed, TP baron controlled availability, those few thousand sigils available will not likely increase much while the demand massively outstrips that supply for many months to come... that is the crux of this post..It's how a few are able to totally control the massively inflated price of an item that has no possible way of out injecting the necessary volume to force price neutrality until the demand finally drops off as players either do complete it, don't bother completing it due to costs/timeframe, are pushed into other collections demanding the same level of farming intensity.. or leave the game entirely.Either way this way of injecting fun content then killing it with this malarkey will imo only hurt the game as it continues.

This thread would still not exist as player would not be complaining about the sigil.

As far as it being priced at 300G, wed still have complaints about that cost just like we did with the 250G for griffon.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I disagree.. if the Armor set was priced at 300g.. like the way griffon was a fixed price.. there would be no issue.. everyone would pay the same and everyone had the opportunity to obtain it within a reasonable timeframe, even if some steps had gates.What you have is no fixed price for this and no reliable source of obtaining the sigils, therefore no reliable or evenly timely ability to complete the sets.. unless you bow to TP peer pressure and pay the gold monkey. It is an utterly grotesque way to push players towards gem sales and even then with a drip fed, TP baron controlled availability, those few thousand sigils available will not likely increase much while the demand massively outstrips that supply for many months to come... that is the crux of this post..It's how a few are able to totally control the massively inflated price of an item that has no possible way of out injecting the necessary volume to force price neutrality until the demand finally drops off as players either do complete it, don't bother completing it due to costs/timeframe, are pushed into other collections demanding the same level of farming intensity.. or leave the game entirely.Either way this way of injecting fun content then killing it with this malarkey will imo only hurt the game as it continues.

This thread would still not exist as player would not be complaining about the sigil.

As far as it being priced at 300G, wed still have complaints about that cost just like we did with the 250G for griffon.

Sure, I agree there would.. but with one massive difference.. everyone pays the same, there is no reliance on supply and demand TP fat cats.

[gerrylix.5234]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"gerrylix.5234" said:It's not hard to understand that such a goldwall can be frustrating for many.

Exactly ... it's not hard to understand ... yet Anet did it anyways. Seems to me there is a reason Anet does things, even though it's really easy to understand why those things can be frustrating to players.

I didn't really see much consideration in these kinds of threads of what that reason might be. Everyone who's complaining just assumed the worst they could. That's just not being objective. Do people honestly think Anet went out of their way to make you frustrated for NO REASON? If people do honestly think that, then why would Anet care what they think in the first place? Is there any reason Anet could provide that would change those people's thinking?

You assumed you're feeding whales, so you already assumed the worst. Why should anyone take that seriously? It's part of the game; if you want stuff, you buy it ... or you farm it yourself. Frankly, if you are making excuses to exclude yourself from the market system based on some assumption you made; that's a choice you made. I see little reason to complain about that ... it's how the game has worked for 6+ years now.

You got a few fair points there but just look at this chart, between 4AM and 5AM 18k sigils vanished from the market, so the assumption that a whale bought up the market is backed by numbers. That whale could of course be a whole guild or just one guy but it looks coordinated.https://www.gw2tp.com/item/24572-superior-sigil-of-nullification

[Pifil.5193]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I disagree.. if the Armor set was priced at 300g.. like the way griffon was a fixed price.. there would be no issue.. everyone would pay the same and everyone had the opportunity to obtain it within a reasonable timeframe, even if some steps had gates.What you have is no fixed price for this and no reliable source of obtaining the sigils, therefore no reliable or evenly timely ability to complete the sets.. unless you bow to TP peer pressure and pay the gold monkey. It is an utterly grotesque way to push players towards gem sales and even then with a drip fed, TP baron controlled availability, those few thousand sigils available will not likely increase much while the demand massively outstrips that supply for many months to come... that is the crux of this post..It's how a few are able to totally control the massively inflated price of an item that has no possible way of out injecting the necessary volume to force price neutrality until the demand finally drops off as players either do complete it, don't bother completing it due to costs/timeframe, are pushed into other collections demanding the same level of farming intensity.. or leave the game entirely.Either way this way of injecting fun content then killing it with this malarkey will imo only hurt the game as it continues.

This thread would still not exist as player would not be complaining about the sigil.

As far as it being priced at 300G, wed still have complaints about that cost just like we did with the 250G for griffon.

Sure, I agree there would.. but with one massive difference.. everyone pays the same, there is no reliance on supply and demand TP fat cats.

Yeah, at least it would be fair then, as it is with an item like this - limited stock to begin with and unpredictable inputs - it's incredibly easy to corner the market and gouge on prices.

[gerrylix.5234]

@Malediktus.9250 said:It really does not matter if new players do not have the same options as veteran players. If I were a new player I would probably have different priorities than getting endgame skins. And if they really must have it right now they still have the option to trade 10 USD worth of gems to gold.

Both parties if veteran or new player can farm the goldmines over and over and over, it's not like you need any special skill or anything, anybody can run RIBA or Istan for hours.You don't have be so elitist, it has nothing to do with being able to farm gold.

[Cyninja.2954]

@gerrylix.5234 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@gerrylix.5234 said:It's not hard to understand that such a goldwall can be frustrating for many.

Exactly ... it's not hard to understand ... yet Anet did it anyways. Seems to me there is a reason Anet does things, even though it's really easy to understand why those things can be frustrating to players.

I didn't really see much consideration in these kinds of threads of what that reason might be. Everyone who's complaining just assumed the worst they could. That's just not being objective. Do people honestly think Anet went out of their way to make you frustrated for NO REASON? If people do honestly think that, then why would Anet care what they think in the first place? Is there any reason Anet could provide that would change those people's thinking?

You assumed you're feeding whales, so you already assumed the worst. Why should anyone take that seriously? It's part of the game; if you want stuff, you buy it ... or you farm it yourself. Frankly, if you are making excuses to exclude yourself from the market system based on some assumption you made; that's a choice you made. I see little reason to complain about that ... it's how the game has worked for 6+ years now.

You got a few fair points there but just look at this chart, between 4AM and 5AM 18k sigils vanished from the market, so the assumption that a whale bought up the market is backed by numbers. That whale could of course be a whole guild or just one guy but it looks coordinated.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/24572-superior-sigil-of-nullification

Yet we have people in this very thread admitting to buying the Sigil at 1g, 3.x gold and other values. Admitting that they bought only their required amount or some extra to later sell.

You are simply assuming a very tiny minority bought up all the Sigils and while that might well be compared to the entire player base, it is pure speculation that this minority was super wealthy TP barons. As Wanze and I have pointed out, this kind of market reaction and continued market reaction is not achievable by just some few players. It requires an entire shift in player base behavior versus a commodity.

Are some few making gold off of the initial 18k Sigils? Sure but how many and what type of players those are you can only speculate. Chances are high it is gold savvy players but that is not required. I can guarantee a vast majority of people in this thread would do the same given the opportunity, that is quite evident by the amount of envy and greed through the responses.

That does not affect in any way the Sigils which are now coming into the game yet are priced similar to previous Sigils which were bought up old stock. Turns out, any one owning Sigils for sale enjoys taking as much gold as they can for them. That too is no TP baron mumbo jumbo but simple normal player market interaction.

EDIT: the more this thread goes on it becomes evident that people are not actually opposed to the high price, but are rather envious of others having been faster or getting the same collection for less gold. Yes, that is unfortunate (and it affects me too since I don't have my Sigils yet but I don't mind getting beat by some savvy players. On the contrary, I applaud their dedication and speed to figure this stuff out). But that's life, you don't always get to win. What you can do is decide what the collection is worth to you and then buy or not buy the Sigil. There is no reason to cry over spilled milk.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I disagree.. if the Armor set was priced at 300g.. like the way griffon was a fixed price.. there would be no issue.. everyone would pay the same and everyone had the opportunity to obtain it within a reasonable timeframe, even if some steps had gates.What you have is no fixed price for this and no reliable source of obtaining the sigils, therefore no reliable or evenly timely ability to complete the sets.. unless you bow to TP peer pressure and pay the gold monkey. It is an utterly grotesque way to push players towards gem sales and even then with a drip fed, TP baron controlled availability, those few thousand sigils available will not likely increase much while the demand massively outstrips that supply for many months to come... that is the crux of this post..It's how a few are able to totally control the massively inflated price of an item that has no possible way of out injecting the necessary volume to force price neutrality until the demand finally drops off as players either do complete it, don't bother completing it due to costs/timeframe, are pushed into other collections demanding the same level of farming intensity.. or leave the game entirely.Either way this way of injecting fun content then killing it with this malarkey will imo only hurt the game as it continues.

This thread would still not exist as player would not be complaining about the sigil.

As far as it being priced at 300G, wed still have complaints about that cost just like we did with the 250G for griffon.

Sure, I agree there would.. but with one massive difference.. everyone pays the same, there is no reliance on supply and demand TP fat cats.

You’re the first person that I have seen bring up the “fairness” argument. That discussion may likely merit a new thread.

One thing that I have against it is that anything that requires materials which can be purchased off the TP will tend to lack “fairness” as prices change. For example, is it fair that some players paid more for legendary weapon and/or ascended armor years ago when they can be obtained cheaper today?

How about the players that farmed gold quickly and got their legendaries within the first month before prices increased? Is it fair that those players got their legendary weapons cheaper simply because they were among the first ones to go for it?

How’s it any different from sigil of nullification?

[gerrylix.5234]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gerrylix.5234 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@gerrylix.5234 said:It's not hard to understand that such a goldwall can be frustrating for many.

Exactly ... it's not hard to understand ... yet Anet did it anyways. Seems to me there is a reason Anet does things, even though it's really easy to understand why those things can be frustrating to players.

I didn't really see much consideration in these kinds of threads of what that reason might be. Everyone who's complaining just assumed the worst they could. That's just not being objective. Do people honestly think Anet went out of their way to make you frustrated for NO REASON? If people do honestly think that, then why would Anet care what they think in the first place? Is there any reason Anet could provide that would change those people's thinking?

You assumed you're feeding whales, so you already assumed the worst. Why should anyone take that seriously? It's part of the game; if you want stuff, you buy it ... or you farm it yourself. Frankly, if you are making excuses to exclude yourself from the market system based on some assumption you made; that's a choice you made. I see little reason to complain about that ... it's how the game has worked for 6+ years now.

You got a few fair points there but just look at this chart, between 4AM and 5AM 18k sigils vanished from the market, so the assumption that a whale bought up the market is backed by numbers. That whale could of course be a whole guild or just one guy but it looks coordinated.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/24572-superior-sigil-of-nullification

Yet we have people in this very thread admitting to buying the Sigil at 1g, 3.x gold and other values. Admitting that they bought only their required amount or some extra to later sell.

You are simply assuming a very tiny minority bought up all the Sigils and while that might well be compared to the entire player base, it is pure speculation that this minority was super wealthy TP barons. As Wanze and I have pointed out, this kind of market reaction and continued market reaction is not achievable by just some few players. It requires an entire shift in player base behavior versus a commodity.

Are some few making gold off of the initial 18k Sigils? Sure but how many and what type of players those are you can only speculate. Chances are high it is gold savvy players but that is not required. I can guarantee a vast majority of people in this thread would do the same given the opportunity, that is quite evident by the amount of envy and greed through the responses.

That does not affect in any way the Sigils which are now coming into the game yet are priced similar to previous Sigils which were bought up old stock. Turns out, any one owning Sigils for sale enjoys taking as much gold as they can for them. That too is no TP baron mumbo jumbo but simple normal player market interaction.

EDIT: the more this thread goes on it becomes evident that people are not actually opposed to the high price, but are rather envious of others having been faster or getting the same collection for less gold. Yes, that is unfortunate (and it affects me too since I don't have my Sigils yet but I don't mind getting beat by some savvy players. On the contrary, I applaud their dedication and speed to figure this stuff out). But that's life, you don't always get to win. What you can do is decide what the collection is worth to you and then buy or not buy the Sigil. There is no reason to cry over spilled milk.

The discussions in here leads nowhere, that's what i find evident.There are 3 types of players arguing over and over about the same thing.

A ) Makes a killing by selling the sigils and will always defend itB ) Has no reason but "Everyone deserves to farm 300g or more for a collection so shut up"C ) Materials for the collection are to expensive

First i wanted to point at the issue than i started arguing a bit, because i didn't understand how someone wants to pay voluntarily so much and now i don't care about the whole new content and armor anymore."Been there, done that, don't care anymore"

At least for me the arguing is over, because the effort to defend the stance of me and quite a few others is exhausting and not worth it.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Another thing that I didn’t directly bring up is that I don’t think Anet just randomly chose the sigil. I’m fairly sure that they put a little more thought into it and looked at how many are generated (at whatever interval), along with what their long term pricing goals for the item, and felt what they did was reasonable.

There are many items in this game that have little to no value. There have been threads asking for these items to have value such as with the HoT ones. If Anet were to add those items to something, we’d likely see a similar spike in the price.

For example, look at leaf fossils which sell for like 20 copper. This is ignoring that it’s a HoT item. There’s a supply of 6.5M excluding what players have in their material bank. If Anet had made a stack required in place of each sigil, that’s only enough for a little over 1K players. We’d be seeing the same situation as we are seeing right now. The thing is that over the long term, the prices would settle and they’d have a higher value than before.

The above example isn’t the greatest but I wanted to point out that any material that isn’t commonly acquired like mithril is going to see a spike in its TP price temporarily when their use is required for something desirable. Eventually the price will go down as demand is met and stabilize. The sigils will be no different.

[Gop.8713]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the

personal story

level up rewards and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I can only speak for myself . . .

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@gerrylix.5234 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@gerrylix.5234 said:It's not hard to understand that such a goldwall can be frustrating for many.

Exactly ... it's not hard to understand ... yet Anet did it anyways. Seems to me there is a reason Anet does things, even though it's really easy to understand why those things can be frustrating to players.

I didn't really see much consideration in these kinds of threads of what that reason might be. Everyone who's complaining just assumed the worst they could. That's just not being objective. Do people honestly think Anet went out of their way to make you frustrated for NO REASON? If people do honestly think that, then why would Anet care what they think in the first place? Is there any reason Anet could provide that would change those people's thinking?

You assumed you're feeding whales, so you already assumed the worst. Why should anyone take that seriously? It's part of the game; if you want stuff, you buy it ... or you farm it yourself. Frankly, if you are making excuses to exclude yourself from the market system based on some assumption you made; that's a choice you made. I see little reason to complain about that ... it's how the game has worked for 6+ years now.

You got a few fair points there but just look at this chart, between 4AM and 5AM 18k sigils vanished from the market, so the assumption that a whale bought up the market is backed by numbers. That whale could of course be a whole guild or just one guy but it looks coordinated.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/24572-superior-sigil-of-nullification

Yet we have people in this very thread admitting to buying the Sigil at 1g, 3.x gold and other values. Admitting that they bought only their required amount or some extra to later sell.

You are simply assuming a very tiny minority bought up all the Sigils and while that might well be compared to the entire player base, it is pure speculation that this minority was super wealthy TP barons. As Wanze and I have pointed out, this kind of market reaction and continued market reaction is not achievable by just some few players. It requires an entire shift in player base behavior versus a commodity.

Are some few making gold off of the initial 18k Sigils? Sure but how many and what type of players those are you can only speculate. Chances are high it is gold savvy players but that is not required. I can guarantee a vast majority of people in this thread would do the same given the opportunity, that is quite evident by the amount of envy and greed through the responses.

That does not affect in any way the Sigils which are now coming into the game yet are priced similar to previous Sigils which were bought up old stock. Turns out, any one owning Sigils for sale enjoys taking as much gold as they can for them. That too is no TP baron mumbo jumbo but simple normal player market interaction.

EDIT: the more this thread goes on it becomes evident that people are not actually opposed to the high price, but are rather envious of others having been faster or getting the same collection for less gold. Yes, that is unfortunate (and it affects me too since I don't have my Sigils yet but I don't mind getting beat by some savvy players. On the contrary, I applaud their dedication and speed to figure this stuff out). But that's life, you don't always get to win. What you can do is decide what the collection is worth to you and then buy or not buy the Sigil. There is no reason to cry over spilled milk.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Gop.8713 said:The issue isn't the cost of the item, it's the cause of the cost of the item.

It’s because of the cost. If the item had remained at 2 silver for every player with its acquisition stilled tied to the personal story and RNG drops, this thread wouldn’t exist. Players are only attacking the acquisition methods of the item because the price is now an issue for them.

I disagree.. if the Armor set was priced at 300g.. like the way griffon was a fixed price.. there would be no issue.. everyone would pay the same and everyone had the opportunity to obtain it within a reasonable timeframe, even if some steps had gates.What you have is no fixed price for this and no reliable source of obtaining the sigils, therefore no reliable or evenly timely ability to complete the sets.. unless you bow to TP peer pressure and pay the gold monkey. It is an utterly grotesque way to push players towards gem sales and even then with a drip fed, TP baron controlled availability, those few thousand sigils available will not likely increase much while the demand massively outstrips that supply for many months to come... that is the crux of this post..It's how a few are able to totally control the massively inflated price of an item that has no possible way of out injecting the necessary volume to force price neutrality until the demand finally drops off as players either do complete it, don't bother completing it due to costs/timeframe, are pushed into other collections demanding the same level of farming intensity.. or leave the game entirely.Either way this way of injecting fun content then killing it with this malarkey will imo only hurt the game as it continues.

This thread would still not exist as player would not be complaining about the sigil.

As far as it being priced at 300G, wed still have complaints about that cost just like we did with the 250G for griffon.

Sure, I agree there would.. but with one massive difference.. everyone pays the same, there is no reliance on supply and demand TP fat cats.

You’re the first person that I have seen bring up the “fairness” argument. That discussion may likely merit a new thread.

One thing that I have against it is that anything that requires materials which can be purchased off the TP will tend to lack “fairness” as prices change. For example, is it fair that some players paid more for legendary weapon and/or ascended armor years ago when they can be obtained cheaper today?

How about the players that farmed gold quickly and got their legendaries within the first month before prices increased? Is it fair that those players got their legendary weapons cheaper simply because they were among the first ones to go for it?

How’s it any different from sigil of nullification?

Because Legendries were based on a rare drop pre-cursor for everyone, which then saw the player/players enter into a long term commitment with a material supply that did not/does not rely on rerolling to lvl 64 silly amounts to get a guaranteed 1 sigil drop or play RNG chance in the forge while what little supply there is/was could be manipulated en mass by a few. T2 legendries have a similar issue in the Amalgamated gemstones, but at least these do have supply streams players can utilise while actually playing the game.Lets not forget these are legendary items, they are the top tier if you like, ANET's alternative to what other MMO's do with gear treadmilling, with the distinct advantage that the goal posts don't change as soon as you finally get there.These new sets are not a Legendary weapon, backpack or Armor set, not even ascended, they are exotic sets with no infusion slots, no stat swap ability.. just skins and by the time many players actually get enough resource or have farmed enough sigils and gems that set will be lost in amongst more of the same collections.. just like with back packs and such already.. sound more akin to those A N OTHER MMO gear treadmills to me.

You can defend it all you like, those milking the TP for all its worth will likely be doing the same, but this is a sure fire way to killing players interest in the game because the best, most fairest way to of done this would be to of set a one for all price point and then let the player make the decision on how best to complete the collection. It would still of allowed ANET to dangle the gems for cash carrot, but everyone gets the same choice and more importantly the same end price.

[InkTide.1908]

We already know what a situation with RNG only supply, no way to increase supply, and massively increased demand looks like: Silver Doubloons.

Silver Doubloons have been in the game since release, and have had their high demand in the form of The Juggernaut - a weapon that, prior to HoT, was only usable by 2 classes, and with HoT was only usable in 2 more. Not an armor set usable by all 9 classes. Over the last 6 years, the supply eventually reached a point where it exceeded the demand of the sink of The Juggernaut and the price sank down to a more reasonable-....

Oh wait. That didn't happen at all. Silver Doubloons are still triple the value of gold doubloons, the tier directly above them, and double the value of the platinum doubloons two tiers above them. The market doesn't balance around limited supply by decreasing value over time.

But there's another factor at work here, one that, I must admit, I lied to you about. Silver Doubloons aren't a limited resource at all. They aren't even bound to RNG. In fact, they can be farmed infinitely, for 7 out of the 8 weeks of map bonus rewards. The supply isn't even limited, the weapon skin that created the demand is 6 years old and not even used (for the most part) by meta builds of the only classes that can use it, and that single recipe for using them to eventually make The Juggernaut still keeps their value orders of magnitude higher than any of the other upgrade components of the same tier, and more expensive than multiple purchases of the tiers above it.

The graph on GW2Spidy is very telling, if you know how the game's economy works for the most part: https://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24572

That's a graph of what a complete collapse of supply looks like. It took barely a day to all but drain the entire supply of the sigils, most of the early purchases going to TP barons (who exist whether you believe in them or not - just look at the gw2efficiency leaderboard). Around Sep. 21 you can see a slight recovery as the first time buy orders exceeded sell orders, which was met with a spike in offloading the sigils. Without any change in supply between Sep. 19 and Sep. 21, this can safely be assumed to be hoarders offloading their sigils for profit.

That spike lasted approximately 48 hours before the offloading of hoarded sigils ran out and buy orders began to far exceed sell orders. currently, total supply on the TP is enough to unlock approximately 100 sets of Requiem armor. That is not nearly enough to satisfy an appreciable portion of the playerbase. Without any method to farm or create the sigils (aside from using roughly 60 tomes of knowledge, or an equivalent amount of time leveling), there is no reason other than stubborn adherence to the tenuous (at best) claim that the market will somehow fix itself to believe that the value of these sigils will do anything but ascend into unattainable levels, if they haven't already passed that point.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@"InkTide.1908" said:We already know what a situation with RNG only supply, no way to increase supply, and massively increased demand looks like: Silver Doubloons.

Silver Doubloons have been in the game since release, and have had their high demand in the form of The Juggernaut - a weapon that, prior to HoT, was only usable by 2 classes, and with HoT was only usable in 2 more. Not an armor set usable by all 9 classes. Over the last 6 years, the supply eventually reached a point where it exceeded the demand of the sink of The Juggernaut and the price sank down to a more reasonable-....

Oh wait. That didn't happen at all. Silver Doubloons are still triple the value of gold doubloons, the tier directly above them, and double the value of the platinum doubloons two tiers above them. The market doesn't balance around limited supply by decreasing value over time.

But there's another factor at work here, one that, I must admit, I lied to you about. Silver Doubloons aren't a limited resource at all. They aren't even bound to RNG. In fact, they can be farmed infinitely, for 7 out of the 8 weeks of map bonus rewards. The supply isn't even limited, the weapon skin that created the demand is 6 years old and not even used (for the most part) by meta builds of the only classes that can use it, and that single recipe for using them to eventually make The Juggernaut still keeps their value orders of magnitude higher than any of the other upgrade components of the same tier, and more expensive than multiple purchases of the tiers above it.

The graph on GW2Spidy is very telling, if you know how the game's economy works for the most part: https://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24572

That's a graph of what a complete collapse of supply looks like. It took barely a day to all but drain the entire supply of the sigils, most of the early purchases going to TP barons (who exist whether you believe in them or not - just look at the gw2efficiency leaderboard). Around Sep. 21 you can see a slight recovery as the first time buy orders exceeded sell orders, which was met with a spike in offloading the sigils. Without any change in supply between Sep. 19 and Sep. 21, this can safely be assumed to be hoarders offloading their sigils for profit.

That spike lasted approximately 48 hours before the offloading of hoarded sigils ran out and buy orders began to far exceed sell orders. currently, total supply on the TP is enough to unlock approximately 100 sets of Requiem armor. That is not nearly enough to satisfy an appreciable portion of the playerbase. Without any method to farm or create the sigils (aside from using roughly 60 tomes of knowledge, or an equivalent amount of time leveling), there is no reason other than stubborn adherence to the tenuous (at best) claim that the market will somehow fix itself to believe that the value of these sigils will do anything but ascend into unattainable levels, if they haven't already passed that point.

Yeah true Juggernaut was/is still a PITA.. but at least there is a more ways to obtain them through normal gameplay hence why supply and demand are a little more balanced and prices on the TP a little more stable. IIRC ANET added SB's to map event rotations similar to giant eyes and other mats to alleviate the same issues we are discussing in this thread, as well as rng chances to drop from boss chests, puzzle chests, dungeons, event rewards, bag drops and of course the trusty ole toilet. The sigils in question here of course only has 1 guaranteed method of acquisition - a single sigil per lvl 64. so again this isn't all that comparable..Gen2 Legendaries have a similar supply path with AmG's .. guaranteed meta reward plus RNG within certain chests, plus a forge recipe for min 1 max 5 gems and also a reward track offering additional gems.So question is.. why have ANET reverted back to this terrabad method at least back in the early days everyone was in the same boat with SB's.. there were no hidden stashes from which the barons could manipulate prices via drip fed supply. Added to that a player had zero need for items like SB's until they had their pre-cursor, which was the rare drop..so demand was never so grotesquely greater than the supply, and once more players obtained the pre or bought it, supply of SB's was already in the system and then further increased with the above changes.... not the case with these sets where large numbers of players at the same time are all wanting sigil, but with a very limited supply in the system, with no real tangible way of obtaining them unless they rolled up a new toon.. how many times, using how many tomes/tokens.... to get a single sigil each time or pay the inflated manipulated prices off the TPs via a collection.

[Cyninja.2954]

@InkTide.1908 said:We already know what a situation with RNG only supply, no way to increase supply, and massively increased demand looks like: Silver Doubloons.

Silver Doubloons have been in the game since release, and have had their high demand in the form of The Juggernaut - a weapon that, prior to HoT, was only usable by 2 classes, and with HoT was only usable in 2 more. Not an armor set usable by all 9 classes. Over the last 6 years, the supply eventually reached a point where it exceeded the demand of the sink of The Juggernaut and the price sank down to a more reasonable-....

Oh wait. That didn't happen at all. Silver Doubloons are still triple the value of gold doubloons, the tier directly above them, and double the value of the platinum doubloons two tiers above them. The market doesn't balance around limited supply by decreasing value over time.

But there's another factor at work here, one that, I must admit, I lied to you about. Silver Doubloons aren't a limited resource at all. They aren't even bound to RNG. In fact, they can be farmed infinitely, for 7 out of the 8 weeks of map bonus rewards. The supply isn't even limited, the weapon skin that created the demand is 6 years old and not even used (for the most part) by meta builds of the only classes that can use it, and that single recipe for using them to eventually make The Juggernaut still keeps their value orders of magnitude higher than any of the other upgrade components of the same tier, and more expensive than multiple purchases of the tiers above it.

The graph on GW2Spidy is very telling, if you know how the game's economy works for the most part: https://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24572

That's a graph of what a complete collapse of supply looks like. It took barely a day to all but drain the entire supply of the sigils, most of the early purchases going to TP barons (who exist whether you believe in them or not - just look at the gw2efficiency leaderboard). Around Sep. 21 you can see a slight recovery as the first time buy orders exceeded sell orders, which was met with a spike in offloading the sigils. Without any change in supply between Sep. 19 and Sep. 21, this can safely be assumed to be hoarders offloading their sigils for profit.

That spike lasted approximately 48 hours before the offloading of hoarded sigils ran out and buy orders began to far exceed sell orders. currently, total supply on the TP is enough to unlock approximately 100 sets of Requiem armor. That is not nearly enough to satisfy an appreciable portion of the playerbase. Without any method to farm or create the sigils (aside from using roughly 60 tomes of knowledge, or an equivalent amount of time leveling), there is no reason other than stubborn adherence to the tenuous (at best) claim that the market will somehow fix itself to believe that the value of these sigils will do anything but ascend into unattainable levels, if they haven't already passed that point.

All true, but you are omitting some things from your analysis:

1.) the Juggernaut can be crafted and traded (and this is being done constantly) and the Silver Doubloons used are thus in constant equal high demand simply because legendarys are a rare commodity (trading at 1-3 per day often) and used to convert account bound items into gold (Gifts of Exploration, Obsidian Shards, Mystic Clovers, etc.). Demand for SSoN is finite and can not be converted into gold.

2.) 250 versus 25 is an increase by a factor of 10. Yet Silver Doubloons are valued at close to 1 gold. There is enough room for SSoN to drop price wise. You said yourself, Silver Doubloons have been stable price wise.

3.) We do not know how much Silver Doubloons and SSoN enter the games economy and how many of those make it to the TP. Only Arenanet has those numbers. We also do not know how long demand for SSoN will remain high.

@InkTide.1908 said:That spike lasted approximately 48 hours before the offloading of hoarded sigils ran out and buy orders began to far exceed sell orders. currently, total supply on the TP is enough to unlock approximately 100 sets of Requiem armor. That is not nearly enough to satisfy an appreciable portion of the playerbase. Without any method to farm or create the sigils (aside from using roughly 60 tomes of knowledge, or an equivalent amount of time leveling), there is no reason other than stubborn adherence to the tenuous (at best) claim that the market will somehow fix itself to believe that the value of these sigils will do anything but ascend into unattainable levels, if they haven't already passed that point.

Says who? With each passing day the demand for Sigils decreases (unlike Silver Doubloons). We do not yet know if supply is down to only new Sigils which are directly put on the trading post or if there is still remaining supply stored away. If the amount of Sigils entering the market remains constant, the price will gradually fall.

If the amount of Sigils entering the market drops (due to stored supplies being used up) the price will increase. Yet the entire time demand will drop.

If the Sigil price does spike into unheard territories (say 30 gold plus per Sigil), then people can freak out and demand adjustments from Arenanet. Not before.

[Kalendraf.9521]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Says who? With each passing day the demand for Sigils decreases (unlike Silver Doubloons). We do not yet know if supply is down to only new Sigils which are directly put on the trading post or if there is still remaining supply stored away. If the amount of Sigils entering the market remains constant, the price will gradually fall.

If the amount of Sigils entering the market drops (due to stored supplies being used up) the price will increase. Yet the entire time demand will drop.

If the Sigil price does spike into unheard territories (say 30 gold plus per Sigil), then people can freak out and demand adjustments from Arenanet. Not before.In the near term, those statements may not be valid. There are many players that have yet to finish the initial collection to even realize they need the sigils, and many players don't follow the forums either where they might learn about it. As a result, the number of players who have even reached the point where they have the collection unlocked that needs this continues to grow, possibly at a much faster rate than players are finishing the collections that use the sigils. There are players like myself (and several of my guild mates) who are choosing to wait on the sidelines, hoping that the prices fall back to something more reasonable. I'm not sure how our demand is actually measured since I won't place buy orders yet, but I might eventually.

Regarding the source of sigils, I suspect we're still seeing player inventories being liquidated. I personally sold off the only 2 I had, and from discussing it with other players, they either had none, or have similarly sold theirs due the recent price increase. Over the next few weeks we'll probably reach a point where that source is depleted, and the only new listings are sigils being added from level 64 toons or RNG drops. However, I don't expect a hockey-stick uptick to occur as the TP inventory is wiped out because the high price is already driving away potential buyers. It probably can't sustain prices much higher than this, and many players interested in completing the armor collection will sit on the sidelines hoping for the prices to drop, or they'll just give up instead.

[InkTide.1908]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

All true, but you are omitting some things from your analysis:

1.) the Juggernaut can be crafted and traded (and this is being done constantly) and the Silver Doubloons used are thus in constant equal high demand simply because legendarys are a rare commodity (trading at 1-3 per day often) and used to convert account bound items into gold (Gifts of Exploration, Obsidian Shards, Mystic Clovers, etc.). Demand for SSoN is finite and can not be converted into gold.

The only way to actually use the Juggernaut skin is to account bind it. If material demand for legendaries was tied solely to the ability to trade account bound materials, then they would never see actual use as skins. Each unlocked Juggernaut skin removes 250 silver doubloons - as well as all its other ingredients - from the ingame economy entirely.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

2.) 250 versus 25 is an increase by a factor of 10. Yet Silver Doubloons are valued at close to 1 gold. There is enough room for SSoN to drop price wise. You said yourself, Silver Doubloons have been stable price wise.

Silver Doubloons have had 6 years and an infinite, reliable source to nevertheless stabilize at an absolutely stupid price when compared to other upgrade components of the same type or the same tier. You can reliably farm 250 Silver Doubloons, but not SSoNs. (EDIT: Missed that last word, whoops.)

@Cyninja.2954 said:3.) We do not know how much Silver Doubloons and SSoN enter the games economy and how many of those make it to the TP. Only Arenanet has those numbers. We also do not know how long demand for SSoN will remain high.

We don't know absolute numbers, but we do know what the sinks are and what the sources are. Assuming the demand will fall when the only sources of supply are unreliable and the sources of demand are every single account that has not yet completed the collection and participated in Episode 4 is at best shaky. There are no concrete reasons to believe that demand will fall, without a complete moratorium on new players gaining access to Episode 4 and by extension the collection, or without every player who wants to unlock the skin obtaining it.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@InkTide.1908 said:That spike lasted approximately 48 hours before the offloading of hoarded sigils ran out and buy orders began to far exceed sell orders. currently, total supply on the TP is enough to unlock approximately 100 sets of Requiem armor. That is not

nearly

enough to satisfy an appreciable portion of the playerbase. Without any method to farm or create the sigils (aside from using roughly 60 tomes of knowledge, or an equivalent amount of time leveling), there is no reason other than stubborn adherence to the tenuous (at best) claim that the market will somehow fix itself to believe that the value of these sigils will do anything but ascend into unattainable levels, if they haven't already passed that point.

Says who? With each passing day the demand for Sigils decreases (unlike Silver Doubloons). We do not yet know if supply is down to only new Sigils which are directly put on the trading post or if there is still remaining supply stored away. If the amount of Sigils entering the market remains constant, the price will gradually fall.

If the amount of Sigils entering the market drops (due to stored supplies being used up) the price will increase. Yet the entire time demand will drop.

Your conclusion here is still relying entirely on the assumption that demand will decrease, without explaining how demand is going to decrease. 100 skin unlocks? 1000? Still not an appreciable percentage of the playerbase. Prior to there being any demand for these sigils there were approximately 25k of them on the TP. There was no reason to hoard them and people who did were unusual, meaning that those 25k sigils likely represented the bulk of supply. That's 1000 accounts that can unlock the full collection. That's a whopping 2 full guilds of accounts - it's nothing, and certainly not enough to shrink demand. When that amount runs out, after 1000 players have unlocked the set, the entire supply is limited to people who get the sigils from exotic weapon drops or get lucky and forge it out of 4 major sigils (a process that has done nothing to control the price of sigils that you only need one of for meta builds). The entire playerbase minus ~1000 players limited to RNG. That is not a problem that is going to be solved by hoping that those 1000 players are going to somehow drastically reduce demand by unlocking the collection.

@Cyninja.2954 said:If the Sigil price does spike into unheard territories (say 30 gold plus per Sigil), then people can freak out and demand adjustments from Arenanet. Not before.

Why do you feel you are qualified to make that decision for the entire playerbase?

[mtpelion.4562]

@InkTide.1908 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

All true, but you are omitting some things from your analysis:

1.) the Juggernaut can be crafted and traded (and this is being done constantly) and the Silver Doubloons used are thus in constant equal high demand simply because legendarys are a rare commodity (trading at 1-3 per day often) and used to convert account bound items into gold (Gifts of Exploration, Obsidian Shards, Mystic Clovers, etc.). Demand for SSoN is finite and can not be converted into gold.

The only way to actually use the Juggernaut skin is to account bind it. If material demand for legendaries was tied solely to the ability to trade account bound materials, then they would never see actual use as skins. Each unlocked Juggernaut skin removes 250 silver doubloons - as well as all its other ingredients - from the ingame economy entirely.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

2.) 250 versus 25 is an increase by a factor of 10. Yet Silver Doubloons are valued at close to 1 gold. There is enough room for SSoN to drop price wise. You said yourself, Silver Doubloons have been stable price wise.

Silver Doubloons have had 6 years and an infinite, reliable source to nevertheless stabilize at an absolutely stupid price when compared to other upgrade components of the same type or the same tier. You can reliably farm 250 Silver Doubloons, but not

@Cyninja.2954 said:3.) We do not know how much Silver Doubloons and SSoN enter the games economy and how many of those make it to the TP. Only Arenanet has those numbers. We also do not know how long demand for SSoN will remain high.

We don't know absolute numbers, but we do know what the sinks are and what the sources are. Assuming the demand will fall when the only sources of supply are unreliable and the sources of demand are every single account that has not yet completed the collection and participated in Episode 4 is at best shaky. There are no concrete reasons to believe that demand will fall, without a complete moratorium on new players gaining access to Episode 4 and by extension the collection, or without every player who wants to unlock the skin obtaining it.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@InkTide.1908 said:That spike lasted approximately 48 hours before the offloading of hoarded sigils ran out and buy orders began to far exceed sell orders. currently, total supply on the TP is enough to unlock approximately 100 sets of Requiem armor. That is not

nearly

enough to satisfy an appreciable portion of the playerbase. Without any method to farm or create the sigils (aside from using roughly 60 tomes of knowledge, or an equivalent amount of time leveling), there is no reason other than stubborn adherence to the tenuous (at best) claim that the market will somehow fix itself to believe that the value of these sigils will do anything but ascend into unattainable levels, if they haven't already passed that point.

Says who? With each passing day the demand for Sigils decreases (unlike Silver Doubloons). We do not yet know if supply is down to only new Sigils which are directly put on the trading post or if there is still remaining supply stored away. If the amount of Sigils entering the market remains constant, the price will gradually fall.

If the amount of Sigils entering the market drops (due to stored supplies being used up) the price will increase. Yet the entire time demand will drop.

Your conclusion here is still relying entirely on the assumption that demand will decrease, without explaining

how

demand is going to decrease. 100 skin unlocks? 1000? Still not an appreciable percentage of the playerbase. Prior to there being any demand for these sigils there were approximately 25k of them on the TP. There was no reason to hoard them and people who did were unusual, meaning that those 25k sigils likely represented the bulk of supply. That's 1000 accounts that can unlock the full collection. That's a whopping 2 full guilds of accounts - it's nothing, and certainly not enough to shrink demand. When that amount runs out, after 1000 players have unlocked the set, the entire supply is limited to people who get the sigils from exotic weapon drops or get lucky and forge it out of 4 major sigils (a process that has done nothing to control the price of sigils that you only need one of for meta builds). The entire playerbase minus ~1000 players limited to RNG. That is not a problem that is going to be solved by hoping that those 1000 players are going to somehow drastically reduce demand by unlocking the collection.

@Cyninja.2954 said:If the Sigil price does spike into unheard territories (say 30 gold plus per Sigil), then people can freak out and demand adjustments from Arenanet. Not before.

Why do you feel you are qualified to make that decision for the entire playerbase?

I think the real takeaway here is that Silver Doubloons are the only reasonably priced upgrade component and the other kinds need appropriate uses added so that they too can command a 1g+ price point.

[Ashen.2907]

The source of demand is not every single account but rather an unknown fraction of player accounts.