Mesmer and Boonbeast are problematic.

[ErazorZ.5209]

A mesmer basically is unkillable because of the magical 7 'defensive' (godmode) skills. It has a 3 second window (without counting dodges) to be hit every 30! seconds.Add to that the ability to 1 shot basically anything.Add that to there still existing high mobility teleports. (on low cd)Add that to various gimmicks mesmers have (attacking while dodging) (clones in lower leagues that basically do free dps+let newer players zerg on a single point because they cant figure out the reall one)Add that to easy bursts access.Add that to a medium health pool.

And you have a class only specialised builds can deal with, the best part is how the mobility can most of the time make sure the 'counter' builds cant even catch up with them.

Boonbeast is too tanky can easily 2v1/3v1 by traiting for mass boons.

What trully needs to be done? Give mesmer portal back. increase cooldowns on atleast half of the defensive godmode skills (i am looking at you staff 2) decrease active uptime of defensives. (stealth)

Boonbeast nerf boonprocs, boon uptime.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Here we go again...

[Zenix.6198]

its funny how mirage mains just seem to lurk on these forums. Always w8ing to jump to their broken specs defense, whenever there is any form of critique coming its direction.

[Curunen.8729]

lol, pass the popcorn. xD

I'll have a go:

Staff 2 - increase to 30 seconds. 1s cast time.Blink - increase to 90 seconds. 2s cast time.Prestige - increase to 60 seconds. 3s cast time.Distortion - increase to 180 seconds. Only an evade, not invuln (like that old bug that happened one time)GS2 - also damages the mesmer while giving the enemy might.F1 - reduce damage by 80%Signet of Midnight - blinds the player as wellSignet of Illusions - only refreshes F1

Clones - die after executing a single auto attackAll shatters have 1s cast time.Portal - now usable by enemies.

Mirage endurance - reduce to 50 (single bar)Axe 3 - increase cooldown to 60s, increase cast time to 2s. Reduce attack animation speed by 100%.Axe ambush - reduce torment duration to 0.5s (kind of like auto cleanse for opponents!)Illusionary Ambush - increase cooldown to 180 seconds. Also make it unable to use without 3 clones active (button does nothing)Mirage Thrust - remove daze, require target and doesn't spawn a clone, reduce range to 100 (one of these may not be /s).Infinite Horizon - clones only dodge while looking pretty, but deal no damage.Elusive Mind - break stuns of all enemies around you and refill their endurance in 1200 radius when you break a stun.

Of course that's not comprehensive - didn't even touch on Blinding Dissipation or Ineptitude (or Evasive Mirror "perma reflect"), so still a ton of necessary nerfs to this "godlike" class that can otherwise faceroll fights vs competent opponents while being perma invuln...

I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

[Jeknar.6184]

I know the above post is pure sarcasm but...

Mirage Thrust - remove daze, require target and doesn't spawn a clone, reduce range to 100 (one of these may not be /s).

I would love to see Mirage Thrust requiring target... Don't even need to change anything else on it.

[Curunen.8729]

@Jeknar.6184 said:I know the above post is pure sarcasm but...

Mirage Thrust - remove daze,

require target

and doesn't spawn a clone, reduce range to 100 (

one of these may not be /s

).

I would love to see Mirage Thrust requiring target... Don't even need to change anything else on it.

I left that vague so people can take their pick. ;) Though the range is an exaggeration.

But I do agree - believe it should function more like Spear ambush underwater which does require a target.

[Crinn.7864]

@Curunen.8729 said:I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

Have you finished with that strawman yet or do you want to take a few more swings?

[Curunen.8729]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

Have you finished with that strawman yet or do you want to take a few more swings?

There is truth in that no matter how many nerfs mesmer gets, there will always be whining - as seen by people not liking the colour, the visual effects, the theme or whatever.

I think it's fair to balance out the subjective and often excessive negative bias with some exaggerated sarcasm.

[RisenHowl.2419]

There will be still be whining because mirage has too many iframes for the damage it puts out. There is no window of opportunity to fight back, which is fucking awful to play against

[UfoCoffee.2084]

Mirage has made this season unplayable. It's my second most played profession and I've climbed high with it in previous seasons but it's cheap as fuck.

Every game last night had 2 mirage on each team. It's getting ridiculous.

You try defending a point with 2 X mirage spawning a millions clones, trying to find the real one when they're not stealthed amongst all the pink shit everywhere. When you finally find one of the real ones you're already condied up and then they evade or invuln over and over and then re-stealth and jaunt or blink out to recover and do it all over again.

They need a huge rework before next season.

[flog.3485]

-Too many clones being summoned on a spec that has high evade frames. Seriously nerf the clones on sword ambush.-Axe 3 provides way too much utility for a skill with too low of a cooldown. There should a cost of some sort behind it (how about some endurance cost ?)

Yours truthfully,A mesmer player who finds the spec way too much spammy in comparison to chronomancer.

[Crinn.7864]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

Have you finished with that strawman yet or do you want to take a few more swings?

There is truth in that no matter how many nerfs mesmer gets, there will always be whining - as seen by people not liking the colour, the visual effects, the theme or whatever.

Maybe because no matter how many nerfs Mesmer gets it still manages to be top-of-the-meta after every patch. You forget that every patch that has ever nerfed Mesmer has also come with heavy handed nerfs to other professions. We've been in a permanent Mesmer meta since HoT launched 3 years ago, we'd like a change to the status quo.

Moreover the mechanics that ArenaNet has graced Mirage with are just plain vexation to play against. It's a class that is intentionally designed to be impossible to lock down, which limits players to simply throwing attacks at it and hoping some of them stick because there isn't any realistic manner for outplaying or shutting down a mirage. Throw on the fact that mirage has a equal or winning matchup against literally everything and you've got a recipe for a agitated player base.

[DaShi.1368]

Mirage was practically unplayable when PoF came out. They had to make significant changes to it.

[Solori.6025]

@DaShi.1368 said:Mirage was practically unplayable when PoF came out. They had to make significant changes to it.

In beta* The first beta was pretty rough, and they added things we told them was a bad idea. Like EM.But Anet is Anet.

[apharma.3741]

Complaining about power mes?

Are you NA by any chance?

Condi build is a problem and I dunno why they made that passive trait in chaos even better and give more distortion but Anet is Anet.

[Solori.6025]

@"apharma.3741" said:Complaining about power mes?

Are you NA by any chance?

Condi build is a problem and I dunno why they made that passive trait in chaos even better and give more distortion but Anet is Anet.

I feel the start of a new meme brewing

"But Anet is Anet"XD

[Arheundel.6451]

@ErazorZ.5209 said:A mesmer basically is unkillable because of the magical 7 'defensive' (godmode) skills. It has a 3 second window (without counting dodges) to be hit every 30! seconds.Add to that the ability to 1 shot basically anything.Add that to there still existing high mobility teleports. (on low cd)Add that to various gimmicks mesmers have (attacking while dodging) (clones in lower leagues that basically do free dps+let newer players zerg on a single point because they cant figure out the reall one)Add that to easy bursts access.Add that to a medium health pool.

And you have a class only specialised builds can deal with, the best part is how the mobility can most of the time make sure the 'counter' builds cant even catch up with them.

Boonbeast is too tanky can easily 2v1/3v1 by traiting for mass boons.

What trully needs to be done? Give mesmer portal back. increase cooldowns on atleast half of the defensive godmode skills (i am looking at you staff 2) decrease active uptime of defensives. (stealth)

Boonbeast nerf boonprocs, boon uptime.

We need rangers and mesmer at this point....if not all you'd see in game would be necromancers and guardians facerolling the whole freaking game from mode A to mode Z

[tinyreborn.1938]

@apharma.3741 said:Complaining about power mes?

Are you NA by any chance?

Condi build is a problem and I dunno why they made that passive trait in chaos even better and give more distortion but Anet is Anet.

OP is on EU . I think he does nothing in this game but spam nonsense in a mapchat 24/7 ;D

[Curunen.8729]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

Have you finished with that strawman yet or do you want to take a few more swings?

There is truth in that no matter how many nerfs mesmer gets, there will always be whining - as seen by people not liking the colour, the visual effects, the theme or whatever.

Maybe because no matter how many nerfs Mesmer gets it still manages to be top-of-the-meta after every patch. You forget that every patch that has ever nerfed Mesmer has also come with heavy handed nerfs to other professions. We've been in a permanent Mesmer meta since HoT launched 3 years ago, we'd like a change to the status quo.

Since HoT sure - half the game's life. But top of the meta - by how much, if at all? Outside of one or two standout overpowered builds (ie initial chrono bunker), I'd say more or less on par with the general power creep since expansions.If certain builds are ahead of the curve then sure, reign them in - but in my opinion current condi and hybrid mirage while certainly very strong, is nowhere near as overpowered godlike as is complained about on here. A change to the status quo sounds more like vengeance than bringing everything in line.

Moreover the mechanics that ArenaNet has graced Mirage with are just plain vexation to play against. It's a class that is intentionally designed to be impossible to lock down, which limits players to simply throwing attacks at it and hoping some of them stick because there isn't any realistic manner for outplaying or shutting down a mirage. Throw on the fact that mirage has a equal or winning matchup against literally everything and you've got a recipe for a agitated player base.

Surely that means the class is performing its intended function as it should? Unpredictability doesn't mean lack of opportunity to counter - there are plenty of windows to hit a mirage, which in addition has paper thin sustain outside of its scalable evade frames. Mechanically, there really isn't much of an issue with mirage - yes potentially the dodging while cced, but that's about it. Apart from that nothing that a few shaves to condi application in suitable places to reduce the ease and frequency wouldn't fix.

Mirage being a duelist/mobility focused elite spec (mesmer/thief) of an already duelist profession, it makes sense for it to excel at 1v1 situations - on the flipside it trades this for being weak in larger fights (wvw perspective). Even so, there are weaknesses that can be exploited in 1v1 for a good number of classes and builds (ie condi can be shut down with sufficient cleanse, axe 3 is really easy to dodge to name a couple of things), though I appreciate necro has kind of the least favourable situation given how mirage can kite - but they are two polar opposite roles anyway.

[Crinn.7864]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

Have you finished with that strawman yet or do you want to take a few more swings?

There is truth in that no matter how many nerfs mesmer gets, there will always be whining - as seen by people not liking the colour, the visual effects, the theme or whatever.

Maybe because no matter how many nerfs Mesmer gets it still manages to be top-of-the-meta after every patch. You forget that every patch that has ever nerfed Mesmer has also come with heavy handed nerfs to other professions. We've been in a permanent Mesmer meta since HoT launched 3 years ago, we'd like a change to the status quo.

Since HoT sure - half the game's life. But top of the meta - by how much, if at all? Outside of one or two standout overpowered builds (ie initial chrono bunker), I'd say more or less on par with the general power creep since expansions.If certain builds are ahead of the curve then sure, reign them in - but in my opinion current condi and hybrid mirage while certainly very strong, is nowhere near as

overpowered

godlike as is complained about on here. A change to the status quo sounds more like vengeance than bringing everything in line.

"How much" is irrelevant, top of the food chain is still top of the food chain. It doesn't matter how much higher, only that you are higher at all.

Don't downplay Mesmer's history either. Shortly after Chronobunker was annihilated at the end of season 1 condi chrono emerged. Condi Chrono immediately took the meta spot owning to having really good matchups against the entire rest of the meta, and most importantly it flat hardcountered Power Herald which was otherwise the golden class in the post-chronobunker era. Condi Chrono maintained it's meta spot all the way until PoF launched. When PoF launched Condi Mirage immediately took Condi Chrono's place as the apex Mesmer build, however mirage was initially overlooked due to the extreme Scourge and Spellbreaker bandwagoning that was going on in the post-PoF half of season 8, because of this Mirage didn't get bandwagoned until season 9. After a couple patches ArenaNet went after it with a nerfbat, but a patch later put through the infamous Phantasm Patch which made Chrono and Mirage both gods outright. ArenaNet has spent every balance patch since the phantasm patch trying to get mesmers toned down

A change to the status quo sounds more like vengeance than bringing everything in line.A change to the status quo is necessary to keep this game alive. Meta changes are what freshen the game up and keep things interesting. Without change the game becomes repetitive and stagnant, with players rapidly losing any interest in continuing to log in. Why queue for pvp when you'll just get an identical match experience to the one you had 6 months ago?

Moreover the mechanics that ArenaNet has graced Mirage with are just plain vexation to play against. It's a class that is intentionally designed to be impossible to lock down, which limits players to simply throwing attacks at it and hoping some of them stick because there isn't any realistic manner for outplaying or shutting down a mirage. Throw on the fact that mirage has a equal or winning matchup against literally everything and you've got a recipe for a agitated player base.

Surely that means the class is performing its intended function as it should? Unpredictability doesn't mean lack of opportunity to counter - there are plenty of windows to hit a mirage, which in addition has paper thin sustain outside of its scalable evade frames. Mechanically, there really isn't much of an issue with mirage - yes potentially the dodging while cced, but that's about it. Apart from that nothing that a few shaves to condi application in suitable places to reduce the ease and frequency wouldn't fix.

Mirage being a duelist/mobility focused elite spec (mesmer/thief) of an already duelist profession, it makes sense for it to excel at 1v1 situations - on the flipside it trades this for being weak in larger fights (wvw perspective). Even so, there are weaknesses that can be exploited in 1v1 for a good number of classes and builds (ie condi can be shut down with sufficient cleanse, axe 3 is really easy to dodge to name a couple of things), though I appreciate necro has kind of the least favourable situation given how mirage can kite - but they are two polar opposite roles anyway.

You are confusing balance with gameplay. Have you ever heard someone say "I need to get that game, I hear it's super balanced." No you haven't because people don't play games for the balance, they play them for how engaging the gameplay is. Mirage isn't engaging to fight, which is the entire point that it's hated.

Unpredictability doesn't mean lack of opportunity to counter - there are plenty of windows to hit a mirage, which in addition has paper thin sustain outside of its scalable evade frames.

You'll notice that I never used the word "unpredictable" in my post, mostly because it's irrelevant because how predictable something is is purely dependent on the player playing it and nothing to do with the class itself. Moreover the existence of holes in mirage's evade chain isn't a practical vulnerability given that Mirage has other tools for closing up any defensive gaps, mainly via CC, blind spam, and Distortion. A opponent will typically die before a mirage actually becomes vulnerable. Lack of sustain is means nothing if the opposition cannot even touch you.

Mechanically, there really isn't much of an issue with mirageYes there is. Mirage cloak as a concept is a massive failure of design that should have never left the drawing board.

Mirage cloak allows for a mirage to cover any cast it wants with evades, effectively allowing it to make anything it wants uncounterable. Moreover Mirage cloak allows the Mesmer to dodge in situations that no other class can dodge in, namely while immobilized and CC'ed. EM is not required for this so don't even bring it up. Also worth pointing out that Mirage cloak unlike a regular dodge does not interrupt casting which gives the mirage the ability to cast a skill, wait to see if the opponent would try to interrupt, and then dodge the interrupt without losing the cast in the process.

[Curunen.8729]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I bet there would still be whining.

(/s, just in case any of these nerfs happen I'm not going to be held accountable. On a serious note - yes there are things to balance - some that actually need buffs, while others could do with nerfs. But nowhere near as extreme as the common perception).

Have you finished with that strawman yet or do you want to take a few more swings?

There is truth in that no matter how many nerfs mesmer gets, there will always be whining - as seen by people not liking the colour, the visual effects, the theme or whatever.

Maybe because no matter how many nerfs Mesmer gets it still manages to be top-of-the-meta after every patch. You forget that every patch that has ever nerfed Mesmer has also come with heavy handed nerfs to other professions. We've been in a permanent Mesmer meta since HoT launched 3 years ago, we'd like a change to the status quo.

Since HoT sure - half the game's life. But top of the meta - by how much, if at all? Outside of one or two standout overpowered builds (ie initial chrono bunker), I'd say more or less on par with the general power creep since expansions.If certain builds are ahead of the curve then sure, reign them in - but in my opinion current condi and hybrid mirage while certainly very strong, is nowhere near as

overpowered

godlike as is complained about on here. A change to the status quo sounds more like vengeance than bringing everything in line.

"How much" is irrelevant, top of the food chain is still top of the food chain. It doesn't matter how much higher, only that you are higher at all.It matters in that it determines how severe any nerfs need to be. Nothings ever going to be perfectly in line, but as long as the variance is small enough that player skill can overcome the difference in a good number of situations then it's all good.

Don't downplay Mesmer's history either. Shortly after Chronobunker was annihilated at the end of season 1 condi chrono emerged. Condi Chrono immediately took the meta spot owning to having really good matchups against the entire rest of the meta, and most importantly it flat hardcountered Power Herald which was otherwise the golden class in the post-chronobunker era. Condi Chrono maintained it's meta spot all the way until PoF launched. When PoF launched Condi Mirage immediately took Condi Chrono's place as the apex Mesmer build, however mirage was initially overlooked due to the extreme Scourge and Spellbreaker bandwagoning that was going on in the post-PoF half of season 8, because of this Mirage didn't get bandwagoned until season 9. After a couple patches ArenaNet went after it with a nerfbat, but a patch later put through the infamous Phantasm Patch which made Chrono and Mirage both gods outright. ArenaNet has spent every balance patch since the phantasm patch trying to get mesmers toned downI recall since they removed mercenary amulet and before pof that in general chrono was fine. Strong yes, meta yes, but not "godlike" or unkillable/impossible to fight.

Phantasm rework was a necessary change to the design that should have been done years before. Yes it had consequences, but better to make the change and then nerf.

The fine line between mirage being extremely weak and extremely strong can be seen in the difference between its balance in pof beta and on pof launch - ie things like making mirage cloak 1s which allowed the spec to function properly.

A change to the status quo sounds more like vengeance than bringing everything in line.A change to the status quo is necessary to keep this game alive. Meta changes are what freshen the game up and keep things interesting. Without change the game becomes repetitive and stagnant, with players rapidly losing any interest in continuing to log in. Why queue for pvp when you'll just get an identical match experience to the one you had 6 months ago?

The way you expressed it made it sound like you'd be happy to see mesmer not be viable at all, whereas I'd rather see all classes be in a position to have different but similarly viable compositions.Though I concede the point that one reason I can't be bothered to play gw2 much at the moment is because the combat is all too familiar - something only a huge balance patch or new elite specs will shake up.

Moreover the mechanics that ArenaNet has graced Mirage with are just plain vexation to play against. It's a class that is intentionally designed to be impossible to lock down, which limits players to simply throwing attacks at it and hoping some of them stick because there isn't any realistic manner for outplaying or shutting down a mirage. Throw on the fact that mirage has a equal or winning matchup against literally everything and you've got a recipe for a agitated player base.

Surely that means the class is performing its intended function as it should? Unpredictability doesn't mean lack of opportunity to counter - there are plenty of windows to hit a mirage, which in addition has paper thin sustain outside of its scalable evade frames. Mechanically, there really isn't much of an issue with mirage - yes potentially the dodging while cced, but that's about it. Apart from that nothing that a few shaves to condi application in suitable places to reduce the ease and frequency wouldn't fix.

Mirage being a duelist/mobility focused elite spec (mesmer/thief) of an already duelist profession, it makes sense for it to excel at 1v1 situations - on the flipside it trades this for being weak in larger fights (wvw perspective). Even so, there are weaknesses that can be exploited in 1v1 for a good number of classes and builds (ie condi can be shut down with sufficient cleanse, axe 3 is really easy to dodge to name a couple of things), though I appreciate necro has kind of the least favourable situation given how mirage can kite - but they are two polar opposite roles anyway.

You are confusing balance with gameplay. Have you ever heard someone say "I need to get that game, I hear it's super balanced." No you haven't because people don't play games for the balance, they play them for how engaging the gameplay is. Mirage isn't engaging to fight, which is the entire point that it's hated.

And that is an entirely subjective factor as was the initial point I was making - I find it engaging both to play and to fight against, visually, thematically and mechanically. But of course if the majority don't then I accept that must be catered to.

Unpredictability doesn't mean lack of opportunity to counter - there are plenty of windows to hit a mirage, which in addition has paper thin sustain outside of its scalable evade frames.

You'll notice that I never used the word "unpredictable" in my post, mostly because it's irrelevant because how predictable something is is purely dependent on the player playing it and nothing to do with the class itself. Moreover the existence of holes in mirage's evade chain isn't a practical vulnerability given that Mirage has other tools for closing up any defensive gaps, mainly via CC, blind spam, and Distortion. A opponent will typically die before a mirage actually becomes vulnerable. Lack of sustain is means nothing if the opposition cannot even touch you.Anecdotally I can say there are ways to disrupt any defensive sequence and catch them. Otherwise no mirage would ever die. I've been at the giving and receiving end of this in wvw - it's not impossible to overcome.

Mechanically, there really isn't much of an issue with mirageYes there is. Mirage cloak as a concept is a massive failure of design that should have never left the drawing board.

Mirage cloak allows for a mirage to cover any cast it wants with evades, effectively allowing it to make anything it wants uncounterable. Moreover Mirage cloak allows the Mesmer to dodge in situations that no other class can dodge in, namely while immobilized and CC'ed. EM is not required for this so don't even bring it up. Also worth pointing out that Mirage cloak unlike a regular dodge does not interrupt casting which gives the mirage the ability to cast a skill, wait to see if the opponent would try to interrupt, and then dodge the interrupt without losing the cast in the process.As said the only (I don't like to use that turn of phrase, but in this case I mean

only

) feature that potentially is an issue is baseline being able to dodge while cced. Aside from that I disagree and think the function of mirage cloak is fine.They may use it to cover cast a skill but then that's a dodge spent. Look at axe 2 - mirage is a sitting duck during the animation unless wasting a dodge over it. There is only so much endurance before they run out - which becomes a window to burst. This is where I was referring to unpredictability because mirage above pretty much all else has the greatest freedom of where to put it's evade frames. But they are still a limited resource.

Oh I won't bring up EM - not since they decided to shackle it with 6s exhaustion instead of redesigning it.

[Math.5123]

Quick question, why is scepter 3 allowed to hit for 12k+ on a hybrid amulet?

Also, I wouldn't mind mesmer being out of the meta for a season or two. But that's just me.

[otto.5684]

@Jeknar.6184 said:I know the above post is pure sarcasm but...

Mirage Thrust - remove daze,

require target

and doesn't spawn a clone, reduce range to 100 (one of these may not be /s).

I would love to see Mirage Thrust requiring target... Don't even need to change anything else on it.

That will hurt mobility. I would like they increase the damage by 100% in PvE and 35% in PvP and remove the daze.

[James.1065]

I expect Anets reponse to this will be to nerf core necro, Reaper and scourge because mesmer is definitely OP...

But seriously all that needs to happen to fix this is reduce all thier damage by 100% when invisible, invulnerable or dodging so they have to make a decision to either defend or attack like the rest of us and not have both at the same time.

[Yannir.4132]

What I would like to see changed is Blinding Dissipation. I'd cut the Blind application to Cry of Frustration only, and the trait would give the other Shatters other conditions like Cripple, Weakness and Slow. This would cut into their defenses and Confusion application both at the same time.