Why do poeple make such a big fuss about no downstate when it is the norm in 90% of other games?

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Lalary.3561 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

They can only able to one shot you if you are not able to read their burst skills and take counter actions.

LOL? You want to tell us that you are able to read the movements and to be aware of the skills used by every of the 50 enemy you fight in a zerg vs zerg battle? Is this something a normal human can do? And even if you can read these moves (like an I7 CPU) you have a limited number of counter actions. You can dodge twice. And against some unblockable skills, your blocks have no effect.

[Thei.6901]

@Anput.4620 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:cuz this game isn't other games

And? No argument on why downstate is good/bad given here. When i went in and died suddenly because i forgot about the event i was a bit shook, then i realised that i was being kind of silly because i was shook

about the fact that my character died when they were killed

.

Not that you provide any argument why there shouldn't be downstate..."it's the norm in other games" is not an argument.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Anput.4620 said:Like poeple die when they are killed is normal in other games so why is it a big deal here?

Where do you draw the line?In WoW using a mount has a cast time. Also mounts have no health bars, evade frames or abilities.In many MMOs you have to start and end quests by talking to the NPCIn many MMOs their TP is done via an NPC in a townIn many MMOs you have to be physically at the bank to deposit materialsIn many MMOs you have to go to a mailbox of some kind to receive in game mail.

At what point do you just accept that GW2 is different vs. debating why GW2 doesn't do what every other MMO does?

If a player prefers how a mechanic is instituted in another MMO, then maybe they should be playing that title instead of GW2?

[YTKafka.4681]

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:LOL? You want to tell us that you are able to read the movements and to be aware of the skills used by every of the 50 enemy you fight in a zerg vs zerg battle? Is this something a normal human can do? And even if you can read these moves (like an I7 CPU) you have a limited number of counter actions. You can dodge twice. And against some unblockable skills, your blocks have no effect.

Have you tried avoiding the damage or at least as much of it as you can? Between good support to heal up scratch damage, good positioning to stay out of the enemy's bomb, LoS abuse, and good fight reading by considering the enemy cooldowns vs. health to determine a good time to push and retreat you shouldn't have a hard time surviving unless you make a mistake. I know that's "easy enough to just say" right? But you really don't have to watch every person, and dodge every attack. You just need to trust in your support to provide Protection, Stability, and Healing, and make sure your dodges are on point so that you can move to an area that the enemy can't bomb (due to CDs or LoS). And honestly if the enemy just runs you over then maybe sometimes you really do just need more people to abuse target caps.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Anput.4620 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:cuz this game isn't other games

And? No argument on why downstate is good/bad given here. When i went in and died suddenly because i forgot about the event i was a bit shook, then i realised that i was being kind of silly because i was shook

about the fact that my character died when they were killed

.

this games combat was designed around downstate. it doesn't function properly without it, preference notwithstanding. I think there are ways to replace down state, but to remove it altogether with nothing to replace it would be bad for the game.

[Burnfall.9573]

@XECOR.2814 said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

+1 Truth

No competitive games would Dare allow +1 shot builds Period!!

+1 shotting is toxic

'Toxicity is a negative factor that ruins many people’s enjoyment. Competitions lead to losses, which lead to frustration, which leads to toxicity'

'Toxicity is not only a sociological phenomenon: it is also a behavior that emerges from game design. When mechanics create frustration, players express that frustration through toxicity'

----Competitive gaming companies implements anti-toxici measures in their designs----

(the goal of competitive gaming is limit and to deter toxicity. Not to embrace and tolerate toxicity)

[zinkz.7045]

The bigger question is why do these bads complain about downstate? The game aiming for you and requiring the mechanical ability of Stephen Hawking doesn't make damage application in this game faceroll enough already?

[Cristalyan.5728]

@YTKafka.4681 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:LOL? You want to tell us that you are able to read the movements and to be aware of the skills used by

every

of the 50 enemy you fight in a zerg vs zerg battle? Is this something a normal human can do? And even if you can read these moves (like an I7 CPU) you have a limited number of counter actions. You can dodge twice. And against some unblockable skills, your blocks have no effect.

Have you tried avoiding the damage or at least as much of it as you can? Between good support to heal up scratch damage, good positioning to stay out of the enemy's bomb, LoS abuse, and good fight reading by considering the enemy cooldowns vs. health to determine a good time to push and retreat you shouldn't have a hard time surviving unless you make a mistake. I know that's "easy enough to just say" right? But you really don't have to watch every person, and dodge every attack. You just need to trust in your support to provide Protection, Stability, and Healing, and make sure your dodges are on point so that you can move to an area that the enemy can't bomb (due to CDs or LoS). And honestly if the enemy just runs you over then maybe sometimes you really do just need more people to abuse target caps.

We were talking here about the "One Shot" builds. And how these builds can kill you for sure (without the hypothetical chance to be resurrected) in this No Downstate event.

As for positioning and all the other stuff - as you know, the LB Soulbeast has the longest range attack in the game. Also this is one of the One Shot builds. To make some damage you should inevitably approach the enemy and by this you enter into the attack range of these builds (and in the attack range of a Hammer Revenant also). And you are not down but dead.

So, can you track the movements of all the Revenants, Soulbeasts etc. and to avoid the damage when each of them attacks you? Again, in case of some builds you cannot even block/reflect the attacks.

Taking your advice into consideration, the best way to survive a fight is to keep distance and to watch the fight. From over 2 000 distance away preferably.

[Turk.5460]

@XECOR.2814 said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

What off-brand dollar store games are you playing?

[XECOR.2814]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"XECOR.2814" said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

What off-brand dollar store games are you playing?

Hmm people dont seem to understand the difference between just "one shot builds" and "one shot builds like thief,rev,sb". What a silly and pathetic reply. I wouldn't be surprised if you played one of these builds and trying to cut down other's opinion.

Turns out i was right teef player. :)

[Bezerker.2379]

@Anput.4620 said:Like poeple die when they are killed is normal in other games so why is it a big deal here?

Because we play this game. not those games. often for a reason. Downed mechanics are (unsurprisingly?) one of them.

[kash.9213]

Seems like most of the posts talking about no downed state are commenting on implied complaints about no downed state which I see far less of than the comments about those implied complaints.

Downed state is part of the game play, the only people who have a problem dealing with it are sloppy teams who lack attention to detail or limited builds who gas out after their gimmick fails.

[Turk.5460]

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

What off-brand dollar store games are you playing?

Hmm people dont seem to understand the difference between just "one shot builds" and "one shot builds like thief,rev,sb". What a silly and pathetic reply. I wouldn't be surprised if you played one of these builds and trying to cut down other's opinion.

Turns out i was right teef player. :)

What a fragile ego...I'm sorry I didn't know you would be offended so easily. One shot means one shot. DAoC and WoW had this as well. If you are trying (poorly) to imply that other games didn't have classes that could burst down a target in a few shots rapidly then you are also incorrect. DaoC, WoW, Shadowbane, WHO all had these. And those are only games that I have personally played, there's probably a myriad more.

[Lalary.3561]

@"Ansau.7326" said:Sorry, but the game is powercreeped so much even AA act like burst skills. There's nothing to do when Rev hammer AA hits for 5-6k from 1200 range.

Im rev so I know first hand how broken many builds are in this game that ruin wvw when this stupid no downstate event happens.

This event would make sense only if we got a debuff of - 50% damage and condi. But with current state of the balance it only becomes a nightmare for most people while few broken specs get all the glory.

And no, you are not a better player for winning 1vs8 this week, it only means you have the personality of a brick running an advantaged build ganking people not caring about how to win this event.

I'm suddenly being labeled ganker for "defending" high risk-high reward builds? So in your world this one guy is being a kitten ganker for testing his limit by going against other 8 players? If these people don't care about winning then they shouldn't complain about losing too.

Look don't get me wrong, I despise low skill floor one shot builds such as sic em pew pew axe 3 ranger, one shot perma stealth DE and few others but categorizing all of them in same basket just seems illogical.

I do agree with you about power creep in this game. But before nerfing damage and condi, ANet will have to take a hard look at sustains first.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:LOL? You want to tell us that you are able to read the movements and to be aware of the skills used by every of the 50 enemy you fight in a zerg vs zerg battle? Is this something a normal human can do? And even if you can read these moves (like an I7 CPU) you have a limited number of counter actions. You can dodge twice. And against some unblockable skills, your blocks have no effect.

Where did i ever mention anything about zerg fight? Why would anyone bring thieves or rangers to zerg battle?I was merely discussing about one shot roaming builds out there.

[Turk.5460]

@Mil.3562 said:

ANet want GW2 to be different from other MMO, another reason why we have no ' holy trinity classes '. But I think that idea failed badly because now players only want dps class for raids and fractals. The game has no holy trinity but only holy singularity lol

That was one of the selling points of the game for me. However they have since implemented dedicated healing builds such as FB, Druids, and Tempests, which have completely skewed the small scale battlefield in favor of whomever has more support. Whereas before it used to be skill and combo-teamwork that gave you the edge.

[Nox.6785]

@XECOR.2814 said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

Wtf other games are you playing? I can think of at least 4 top 10 MMOs that have one shot builds.

[Excursion.9752]

Keep downstate remove rallying. Make the downed individual either have to pick themselves up off the ground or have a teammates help them up. Nothing like running into a fight AOE tagging basically the whole zerg and bouncing off the ground a few times from the rally.

This way finishers would still be in play.

[Warkind.6745]

Why do people make such a big deal out of mounts? They are normal in other games.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

I'm going to leave something I've posted in similar threads here for those who argue to keep downed state. I legitimately have yet to see anyone attempt to bring up a counter point, a strong one, against it.

Personally I love No Downed state. It does make winning outnumbered fights much easier since people aren't carried by downed state and rally, which many, many people are.

Its why I've tried to advocate for discussion around completely reworking revives as a mechanic in GW2 in PvP modes like sPvP and WvW, especially considering how strong and abundant healing builds are now. They literally just buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players. Do I want them to remove reviving as a mechanic in the game? No. Not at all. I want them to improve it. I would much rather them remove downed state and add/change some skills that heal or revive Downed players so that it brings them back to life from full dead but put those skills, like Battle Standard, onto 5 minute cooldowns (also only making them revive 1 player) so they aren't available too frequently but still allow for clutch revives during fights. The longer cooldown and tying it to a skill with a cooldown would just allow for much better and healthier counterplay.

Would it make these skills required for zerg play or group play? Yes but I don't see a problem with that, at competitive levels in GW1 GvG and otherwise Res Signet was essentially required in builds for most players with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 people on your team. It would also create more diversity among zergs if you, for example, make sure a set couple of Spellbreakers use Winds of Disenchantment but also make sure several have Battle Standard available. It would mean coordinating for revives during a zerg vs zerg fight would be an important and tactical aspect of winning, surviving or prolonging the engagement.

Oh and in regards to the Scrapper Function Gyro mechanic also being made "obsolete" should something like this happen....Anet can turn it into an actual active use skill on or adjacent to the Toolbelt skills and have it function purely as a support skill. Basically a drone defibrillator that the Scrapper sends out to revive an ally.

Another thing to address in regards to an argument against it that I see sometimes, also one that people say is the reason why Anet would never do this; Finishers.

Anet makes money off of Finishers as a cosmetic item from the Gem Store. This is true and if they removed downed state and stomping from the game then they would essentially be nullifying and "deleting" an entire subset of cash shop items. Some people have suggested that they simply change it so that if you land the "killing blow" on an enemy that your finisher is the one that applies over their body when they die. People are right in that it could cause lag and such in an already laggy mode for many.

I have a different solution. Turn it into an emote or an effect similar to Novelties. Players already "taunt" with /laugh or /sleep and other things that even enemy players can see and they already throw siege onto your corpse if they want to "bm" you, and the premise of Finishers is already kind of a taunt, don't you think? Dropping an SAB pixel explosion onto that enemy you just downed? The Llama finisher? Choya? Hidden Minstrel? All rather...taunting but "fun" and "funny", right? So if the concern for Anet is that Finishers would just become obsolete then why not shift their use? Turn them into "Taunts" or "Boasts", I'm sure there could be another name. It would also make it something usable in PvE and probably give more incentive to PvE players to actually buy these cosmetic items as they wouldn't need to play in PvP to see something they spent money or gems on.

To add to this: No one is arguing that Anet shouldn't do something about problematic, actual one shot builds like what Soulbeast can be capable of, or problematic traits that make certain Elite Specs especially cheesy (I.E Deadeye and how Silent Scope still needs an ICD). In fact that is something they should do prior to or if they actually consider taking an action like this for the game, honestly they should just do it anyway its been a long time coming. However its very hard for them to pick out what is actually a problem that needs to be addressed because a large chunk of the PvP community just...does not understand how to counterplay a lot of what they deem "too OP". Rampage is a good example of this. Its not OP, most people just don't disengage or kite. Many players also double dodge or just simply waste dodges, they don't watch for animations, they don't time cooldowns appropriately, they don't utilize the terrain or environment around them, several factors contribute to why you probably got melted in about 5 seconds. Either build, individual skill, class knowledge, experience or mechanical skill; these are all factors you have to consider for that.

[sephiroth.4217]

@XECOR.2814 said:Because no game allows bs 1shot builds like sb, herald and teef.

Then a Veigar comes along and presses R or W...Then a FPS head shot comes along...Then an Equinox comes along...

I dont play a lot of games but I play those games a lot and all have 1 shot builds somewhere.

[kash.9213]

@Excursion.9752 said:Keep downstate remove rallying. Make the downed individual either have to pick themselves up off the ground or have a teammates help them up. Nothing like running into a fight AOE tagging basically the whole zerg and bouncing off the ground a few times from the rally.

This way finishers would still be in play.

That's a good point, rallying is kind of dumb especially with mount stomps.

[Bunny.9834]

This just sounds like a plot to keep the cancerous LB SB ‘relevant’. Which needs to be nerfed to the ground.

If they ‘remove’ the no downstate then they can replace it with res mechanic similar to GW1 and have other players be able to res during combat.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:This just sounds like a plot to keep the cancerous LB SB ‘relevant’. Which needs to be nerfed to the ground.

If they ‘remove’ the no downstate then they can replace it with res mechanic similar to GW1 and have other players be able to res during combat.

Thats exactly what I've been trying to suggest that they do. They need to rework revives in this game, downed state and rallying is just horrible now. Interest and clever mechanic initially, but with the direction game balance has gone especially with the introduction and further buffing of Healing for classes such as Tempest, Firebrand, Ventari Rev and Scrapper...downed state is just irrelevant in large scale and excessively one sided in smaller scale.

[SkyShroud.2865]

In other games, instead of "down", they give you healer to ress them. In this game, they remove ress to be replace with downs.

[Anput.4620]

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:In other games, instead of "down", they give you healer to ress them. In this game, they remove ress to be replace with downs.

No? Most video games don't have dedicated healers, and the ones that do they can only res you when you are dead and it takes a long time, you can't be saved by having numbers basically.> @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Anput.4620 said:Like poeple die when they are killed is normal in other games so why is it a big deal here?

Where do you draw the line?In WoW using a mount has a cast time. Also mounts have no health bars, evade frames or abilities.

I mean that is 100x better balance than what we have for a PvP mode than what we currently have lol.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:cuz this game isn't other games

And? No argument on why downstate is good/bad given here. When i went in and died suddenly because i forgot about the event i was a bit shook, then i realised that i was being kind of silly because i was shook

about the fact that my character died when they were killed

.

this games combat was designed around downstate. it doesn't function properly without it, preference notwithstanding. I think there are ways to replace down state, but to remove it altogether with nothing to replace it would be bad for the game.

WvW and class balance/mobility also wasn't designed around mounts.

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:This just sounds like a plot to keep the cancerous LB SB ‘relevant’. Which needs to be nerfed to the ground.

If they ‘remove’ the no downstate then they can replace it with res mechanic similar to GW1 and have other players be able to res during combat.

Why is one build cancerous but others that are way more impactful/stronger aren't like scourges/firebrands/scrappers lol. Meta build is meta build, no difference. So cancerous when the soulbeasts shoots arrows in their blob and everything reflects onto your own team.

Why does the only build that can deal with mounts have to be nerfed? Less counterplay is good?