Instant Kill - Outnumber Buff Proposal - WvW

[Duca di Ebonhawke.1045]

Dear Anet , I would like to put at your attention a proposal of buff in wvw when outnumber in a borderland.The idea it is to give the instant kill buff at the border that's outnumber.This buff would balance the fights in group when attacked from larger enemies blob.Thanks for your attentionDuca di Ebonhawke

[knite.1542]

I don't think this is a good idea. This doesn't actually fix the problem, it just addresses a symptom of the problem. And it unnecessarily places a severe punishment on players that happen to have more forces.

I know that being outnumbered gets frustrating, especially with how the addition of mounts has affected being outnumbered, but at the end of the day, the force with much greater numbers probably should win.

[b k.1648]

And they will, because no-downstate doesn't help you if you don't down anyone. It just means the force with much greater numbers could lose more easily if they play really badly.

[Dawdler.8521]

The problem is - as has been noted every time this comes up - that outmanned is global to the border without taking into account whether you are actually fighting outmanned or not.

An example of this would be 70 people from server A joining a border with 10 people on server B and 10 on server C, plus there was already 10 people on A. B and C become outmanned.

Yet if those 10 people on B and C choose to ignore the zerg and instead still fight the roamers on A, we're looking at a totally unbalanced 10v10v10 scenario where some have downstate and others dont.

2 people from A ("not outmanned") could end up fighting 10 people on C ("outmanned") just because a zerg is on the other side of the map karmatraining an undefended T0 keep or something, until they leave again.

How would that be fair?

It is a bad idea until they change the way outnumbered work and at the very least reduce it to the influence zones... But that brings a whole slew of other issues by exploiting position. Its really a bad idea overall to link a critical gameplay function to outmanned.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

Are you talking instant, as in one hit kill, or no downedstate instant in that you don't have to finish?

Either case I don't see being good when only given to one side. Instant kill would be abusable like crazy, and no downedstate for only one side is not fair, as the fight you are in might be a 1vs1, or you might even outnumber one of their roamers (but you have outnumbered buff), but you get downedstate and they don't. And I am a VERY strong no downstate supporter, but it needs to be even for it to work in favor of skill.

I would like to see however some extra bonus given for those outnumbered, buff rewards even more, but mostly for kills. Also an achievement for getting a given number of kills under the outnumbered buff would be nice. Something like "Underdog Champion".

[Voltekka.2375]

Outmanned players should have ALL mounts available. With their full pve abilities, of course.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:The problem is - as has been noted every time this comes up - that outmanned is global to the border without taking into account whether you are actually fighting outmanned or not.

An example of this would be 70 people from server A joining a border with 10 people on server B and 10 on server C, plus there was already 10 people on A. B and C become outmanned.

Yet if those 10 people on B and C choose to ignore the zerg and instead still fight the roamers on A, we're looking at a totally unbalanced 10v10v10 scenario where some have downstate and others dont.

2 people from A ("not outmanned") could end up fighting 10 people on C ("outmanned") just because a zerg is on the other side of the map karmatraining an undefended T0 keep or something, until they leave again.

How would that be fair?

It is a bad idea until they change the way outnumbered work and at the very least reduce it to the influence zones... But that brings a whole slew of other issues by exploiting position. Its really a bad idea overall to link a critical gameplay function to outmanned.

Although you are right that such unbalanced scenarios would occur for even numbered small group skirmishes, these are side aspects of WvW.Ultimately balance should be focused on large scale fights and I feel that OP's idea is great.

[KrHome.1920]

Outnumbered = no downstate event

That sounds cool.^^

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Duca di Ebonhawke.1045 said:Dear Anet , I would like to put at your attention a proposal of buff in wvw when outnumber in a borderland.The idea it is to give the instant kill buff at the border that's outnumber.This buff would balance the fights in group when attacked from larger enemies blob.Thanks for your attentionDuca di Ebonhawke

I mean

People roamWouldnt this give huge disadvantage to a side with a defending/attacking force anywere on the map?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if outmanned was fixed, then yeah I could see this at least being tested out and implemented for a weekend event type deal.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

If anything, the Outmanned buff should make people resists 3s bursts during no downstate weeks.Being killed under 3s since entering combat while Outnumbered would keep the downstate effect.

We could also use some sort of "Cowardice" effect that penalizes large groups fighting smaller parties. Not for the whole map like Outmanned, but something that it's accumulated by attacking someone, comparing the number of allies surrounding you in a 2000 unit radius. If you have more than twice the number of allies around you than the target, you'd be considered a coward and get this effect.This effect could reduce the effects of objective auras and increase downed penalty.It could also stack, and after getting enough stacks it would disable objective auras and downed estate altogether.
For example, with 5 stacks of Cowardice you'd get instantly defeated when downed.

Stacks of the effect would be lost over time, instantly when defeated, and also when the tables turn and you are outnumbered instead, and someone gets Coward stacks when attacking you.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

No. Utterly impractical at this point (a very important factor of a 6+ year old game). You won't solve the issue of population by trying to buff "outnumbered" considering that global effect can easily fluctuate. Furthermore, I think ANET intended the outnumber effect to not have in-combat stats as it might incentivize players to scaring others off a map for the buff's sake.

D:

[SkyShroud.2865]

You can still be outmanned without outmanned buff.

Furthermore, your suggestion is not solving problem, you are trying to hide the problem. Just face it, the population balance is bad, the only real solution for such problem is for people to recognize the causes and accept the real solutions instead of QQing about how it destroy your advantages which many don't have.

[Kaiser.9873]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:If anything, the Outmanned buff should make people resists 3s bursts during no downstate weeks.Being killed under 3s since entering combat while Outnumbered would keep the downstate effect.

We could also use some sort of "Cowardice" effect that penalizes large groups fighting smaller parties. Not for the whole map like Outmanned, but something that it's accumulated by attacking someone, comparing the number of allies surrounding you in a 2000 unit radius. If you have more than twice the number of allies around you than the target, you'd be considered a coward and get this effect.This effect could reduce the effects of objective auras and increase downed penalty.It could also stack, and after getting enough stacks it would disable objective auras and downed estate altogether.

For example, with 5 stacks of Cowardice you'd get instantly defeated when downed.

Stacks of the effect would be lost over time, instantly when defeated, and also when the tables turn and you are outnumbered instead, and someone gets Coward stacks when attacking you.

so penalize a group for having people on map? "Here let's ignore the twelve people attacking Bay, because we heavily outnumber them."

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Kaiser.9873 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:If anything, the Outmanned buff should make people resists 3s bursts during no downstate weeks.Being killed under 3s since entering combat while Outnumbered would keep the downstate effect.

We could also use some sort of "Cowardice" effect that penalizes large groups fighting smaller parties. Not for the whole map like Outmanned, but something that it's accumulated by attacking someone, comparing the number of allies surrounding you in a 2000 unit radius. If you have more than twice the number of allies around you than the target, you'd be considered a coward and get this effect.This effect could reduce the effects of objective auras and increase downed penalty.It could also stack, and after getting enough stacks it would disable objective auras and downed estate altogether.

For example, with 5 stacks of Cowardice you'd get instantly defeated when downed.

Stacks of the effect would be lost over time, instantly when defeated, and also when the tables turn and you are outnumbered instead, and someone gets Coward stacks when attacking you.

so penalize a group for having people on map? "Here let's ignore the twelve people attacking Bay, because we heavily outnumber them."

Outmanned isn't there to penalize the other teams, but to encourage players to go out and fight even when outnumbered, by reducing the downsides. Basically to make people free to be more reckless.

With the additional effect I suggest, during a no downstate week and only during those weeks, that would means making 3s bursts less effective on them by making them just as effective as outside the bonus weekend. But only for outmanned players. And that matches properly the intended effect of encuraging players to be less afraid to go out there when outnumbered.

As for the Cowardice effect I mentioned, I clearly indicated it won't be affected by map population. It would not work like outmanned. It would work on on each individual fight, and it would start kicking in when your stacked group size doubles the enemy group size. And it's a fairly balanced debuff since it only removes Objective Aura effects and downed state, and only when there's double or more enemies, and only when they attack while outnumbering the enemy. Smart squads would split and flank enemy groups from multiple sides instead using coward stack&spam methods and getting Cowardice.

Cowardice would merely help skilled groups of smaller size take on larger groups.

[Duca di Ebonhawke.1045]

It is clear that my proposal is a suggestion to test before as event for a week and after evaluate its impact.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Duca di Ebonhawke.1045 said:It is clear that my proposal is a suggestion to test before as event for a week and after evaluate its impact.

Really?

So... where is this ‘clear’:

@Duca di Ebonhawke.1045 said:Dear Anet , I would like to put at your attention a proposal of buff in wvw when outnumber in a borderland.The idea it is to give the instant kill buff at the border that's outnumber.This buff would balance the fights in group when attacked from larger enemies blob.Thanks for your attentionDuca di Ebonhawke

Do you even mention that it was a proposal for a weeks test?

To quote ‘Inigo Montoya’ ’ from ‘The Princess Bride’ ‘I do not think that word means what you think it means’

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Duca di Ebonhawke.1045 said:It is clear that my proposal is a suggestion to test before as event for a week and after evaluate its impact.

On that matterIT Will be a better Idea then mounts

You knowIT had tresting

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Problem: population imbalance.Actual solution: merge servers so that WvW populations are somewhat normalized. This is done in MMOs when server pops become to imbalanced for healthy PvP.

Bandage solution: Make the Outmanned buff give increased defense, reduced condi damage recieved, reduced condi duration received, increase outgoing damage and condi damage. Remove the extra pips, add +5 pips to base pip gain.

The bandage solution dissuades zergs from overloading maps, and helps the underdog team on an overloaded map. Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Problem: population imbalance.Bandage solution:

Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

It wouldn’t remove the afk abuse. It would encourage it more.... you wouldn’t have to worry about being on an outnumbered map.....

Now, if someone wants to afk in an outnumbered map it hurts no one.....

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Problem

: population imbalance.

Bandage solution

:

Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

It wouldn’t remove the afk abuse. It would encourage it more.... you wouldn’t have to worry about being on an outnumbered map.....

Now, if someone wants to afk in an outnumbered map it hurts no one.....

They have timers going for inactivity. There is nothing stopping them from making that check more robust.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Problem

: population imbalance.

Bandage solution

:

Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

It wouldn’t remove the afk abuse. It would encourage it more.... you wouldn’t have to worry about being on an outnumbered map.....

Now, if someone wants to afk in an outnumbered map it hurts no one.....

They have timers going for inactivity. There is nothing stopping them from making that check more robust.

That... wasn’t part of your proposal. There are multiple ways to fix it. What you listed above, won’t.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Problem

: population imbalance.

Bandage solution

:

Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

It wouldn’t remove the afk abuse. It would encourage it more.... you wouldn’t have to worry about being on an outnumbered map.....

Now, if someone wants to afk in an outnumbered map it hurts no one.....

They have timers going for inactivity. There is nothing stopping them from making that check more robust.

That... wasn’t part of your proposal. There are multiple ways to fix it. What you listed above, won’t.

No, but afk pip heroes are a separate problem with a separate solution, kicking out of the map for inactivity sooner. The real solution is to simply merge servers to fix the population imbalances, which is what I said, but 2 for 2 of you seem to have glossed over that. As a bandage though, giving a buff to the underdog's on a map would encourage more active gameplay from them and possibly keep them from being steamrolled as easily by the k-train.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Problem

: population imbalance.

Bandage solution

:

Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

It wouldn’t remove the afk abuse. It would encourage it more.... you wouldn’t have to worry about being on an outnumbered map.....

Now, if someone wants to afk in an outnumbered map it hurts no one.....

They have timers going for inactivity. There is nothing stopping them from making that check more robust.

That... wasn’t part of your proposal. There are multiple ways to fix it. What you listed above, won’t.

No, but afk pip heroes are a separate problem with a separate solution, kicking out of the map for inactivity sooner. The real solution is to simply merge servers to fix the population imbalances, which is what I said, but 2 for 2 of you seem to have glossed over that. As a bandage though, giving a buff to the underdog's on a map would encourage more active gameplay from them and possibly keep them from being steamrolled as easily by the k-train.

I didn’t address the others as they were irrelevant to me. I am neither for or against them. So, rather than talk about them, I removed it.

What I noted was a completely false statement from you was that adding pips to the base and removing them from the outnumbered buff would decrease AFK farmers. It would have the opposite effect. You didn’t dispute that and then moved your own goalpost by adding an additional condition. Which, is fine. Flawed, but w/e.

But adding pups to the base and removing them from outnumbered accomplishes nothing beneficial as far as the afk aspects.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Problem

: population imbalance.

Bandage solution

:

Removing the extra pips from outmanned and adding them to the base pips removes some afk abuse.

It wouldn’t remove the afk abuse. It would encourage it more.... you wouldn’t have to worry about being on an outnumbered map.....

Now, if someone wants to afk in an outnumbered map it hurts no one.....

They have timers going for inactivity. There is nothing stopping them from making that check more robust.

That... wasn’t part of your proposal. There are multiple ways to fix it. What you listed above, won’t.

No, but afk pip heroes are a separate problem with a separate solution, kicking out of the map for inactivity sooner. The real solution is to simply merge servers to fix the population imbalances, which is what I said, but 2 for 2 of you seem to have glossed over that. As a bandage though, giving a buff to the underdog's on a map would encourage more active gameplay from them and possibly keep them from being steamrolled as easily by the k-train.

I didn’t address the others as they were irrelevant to me. I am neither for or against them. So, rather than talk about them, I removed it.

What I noted was a completely false statement from you was that adding pips to the base and removing them from the outnumbered buff would

decrease

AFK farmers. It would have the opposite effect. You didn’t dispute that and then moved your own goalpost by adding an additional condition. Which, is fine. Flawed, but w/e.

But adding pups to the base and removing them from outnumbered accomplishes nothing beneficial as far as the afk aspects.

AFK pip heroes are a separate issue from the function of the outnumbered buff. I did not move the goalpost. You brought a separate issue which I then addressed. Granted afk pip farming is an issue with an obvious solution, kick inactive players more quickly. If Anet doesn't want the QQ from that, then they can introduce pips back into EotM, put a permanent max pips buff there, and let people who don't even WvW go not-WvW there.

Happy?