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Chaining invuls/evades/blocks/dodges together


Shiyo.3578

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Currently, a lot of players play builds that feel like they're "perma evading" or "perma invul" as they slot and spec into as many evades, invuls, blocks and dodges as possible making killing people a really unfun experience.

Can something be done to tone down the amount of ways people can completely avoid damage? Please?

Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?

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The only way this could be possible is if we all go back to core specs.Since HoT and PoF we got:Perma evades:

  • Thief
  • Mesmer
  • Elementalist
  • Revenant

Perma invul:

  • Mesmer
  • Elementalist (focus)

Perma blocks:

  • Guard

Perma damage mitigation:

  • Warrior

Perma health

  • necro (barrier)

Perma critical hits damage mitigation:

  • Elementalist

And the list goes on and on...

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I would take timing evades/invuls properly over having bunker builds any day because evades/invulns have counter play. Sure, a warrior can have a pretty long invuln up time but it's not forever. When you see a hit do 0 damage then just kite till its down and then counter pressure because they probably blew all their defensive cooldowns by that point. You can also catch them at the end of it too. I can't tell you how many thieves I've surprised but CCing them the instant dagger storm ended or landing my burst on a warrior the instant endure pain was down.

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Perma evades are fine i they dont come with excessive amount of healing/damage. Perma invulns are fine if they are transformations.

Having access to evades that one shot enemy or blocks/invulns/cc or crit immunity (and whatever warr and ranger have) that you can get instantly without interrupting your combos/changing your skill bar is a bit too much. Having access to (some of) these AND decent sustain in zerk/mara gear is way too much.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?

Because that would make the entire class unviable in group fights.

Well, not really. But it would become even worse and I don't see it surviving much more of that. Roaming would still be fine, but the mode isn't balanced around that for a reason.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?Because they balance skills and traits for each game mode to specific purposes. Warrior is meant to be played as front line zerg class. You won't get far with 2s of endure pain there.

There was even an official statement regarding warrior in a balance patch thread, that they are aware of the sustain but they don't want to kill the class for the game mode.

Of course this breaks warrior for duells and smallscale where it's overperforming and just dumb in terms of sustain and "I don't care what my target does, I just mash buttons and succeed" (proved by the fact that they did nerf the sustain for PvP for exact that reason).

For advanced users: It's not actually a nerf. It's a rotation change. In a zerg fight you typically have one rush and then it's over. Longer durations on longer cooldowns are preferable here. In PvP you have more frequent fights with less constant pressure, so it's better to have a shorter duration on a lower cooldown for more flexibility.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?Because they balance skills and traits for each game mode to specific purposes. Warrior is meant to be played as front line zerg class. You won't get far with 2s of endure pain there.

There was even an official statement regarding warrior in a balance patch thread, that they are aware of the sustain but they don't want to kill the class for the game mode.

Of course this breaks warrior for duells and smallscale where it's overperforming and just dumb in terms of sustain and "I don't care what my target does, I just mash buttons and succeed" (proved by the fact that they did nerf the sustain for PvP for exact that reason).

For advanced users:
It's not actually a nerf. It's a rotation change. In a zerg fight you typically have one rush and then it's over. Longer durations on longer cooldowns are preferable here. In PvP you have more frequent fights with less constant pressure, so it's better to have a shorter duration on a lower cooldown for more flexibility.

They dont need to nerf it, just increase healing power scaling, but reduce base values. Warr can be a shout frontliner as well.

How can daredevil and reaper afford having no sustain, but warr is suddenly a dead class without it? It's not like warr's only purpose in squad is doing damage so it has to be in marauder gear (like mentioned 2 classes).

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Won't be balanced til all we have is a basic attack, and can only equip white weapons and armor.Balance is not something that CAN be achieved. Plenty of the perma- this and perma- that can and are often killed in 1v1, havoc, roaming, and zerg instances.

So what's the issue? Player A cannot be killed fast enough to suit Player B?

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Honestly the only balance a game like this can have is classes just being good at what they should be and if a player gets killed by a class cuz its weak against it man up and learn ways to best it and except that it's a class weak against some and strong against others. Doing what their doing now u have mobile squishy classes doing less or the same dps burst compared to heavy sustainy classes. Uve got bunkery classes doing bursts like the medium and squishys are doing and ontop given great mobility too,except for necro.Anet listen to nerf cries far too much and not only lessened build deversity through pointless nerfs but also killed classes by nerfing them into not being good at what the archetype of the class should be or buff them in ways that are useless in the end due to the buffs being in areas class isn't mechanically fitting with.heavys should be slow medium hitting with few hard hitting skills but with good sustain,squishy classes that only have active sustain that takes timing etc to survive should hit the hardest and be the fastest but only servive a few hits but they gotta kill fast enough to have a chance to realistically survive a fight and so on. Right now some classes are just great at everything and OP in in a few thing on top,its crazy.

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I can understand the frustration with damaging evades. Little did we know HoT was only the start of that... (daredevil vault/dodge, revenant sword 3 etc). And now look we have an entire elite spec with damaging evades out the roof on top of their already invul/reflect heavy playstyle.... coughmiragecough....

Warrior EP is fine in WvW; different game mode involving way more players compared to 5v5 node conquest that is PvP. Grateful for any dmg invul when going in with winds for example into the enemy... gonna need all the help you can with the power creep spam fiesta.

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I said this along time ago when HoT came out that the worst balancing issue was in GW1, when shadowform was meta in PVE...it was literally a god mode button because you were immune to all damage and you can also deal damage. The idea that you could do damage while being invulnerable was inherently broken.

Then what did they do? They made an entire elite spec based on this broken mechanic and what happened? Years of unbalanced torture.

I mean... I just don’t understand because it was so obvious that mechanics like vault, endure pain, signet of stone and distortion were broken...and of course they all got eventually nerfed but the underlying broken mechanics are still there... and that’s why it’s STILL a problem.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Currently, a lot of players play builds that feel like they're "perma evading" or "perma invul" as they slot and spec into as many evades, invuls, blocks and dodges as possible making killing people a really unfun experience.

Can something be done to tone down the amount of ways people can completely avoid damage? Please?

Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?

Tone down dmg and oneshot potential and then we can talk again

As for endure pain not on 2 sec?Because ppl like you still dont understand that wvw is supposed to be balanced around big zerg fights, not smallscale.And in a push as warrior 2sec would do almost nothing, while 4sec can actually help surviving a push.

After all those years ppl still dont get that... Rly grinds my gears.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?

As a spellbreaker main I can assure you, that the skill as it is now, isn't nearly enough to actually keep you safe. Nerfing it further would probably make it irrelevant, though I guess I'd be willing to experiment with reducing the duration when also reducing the cooldown. That said, I am coming from a zerg-perspective. Not that I actually have any say in what is to come ;)

I can understand the frustration with damaging evades.

I don't really. I think it's fine, but if we're gonna question design principles in general, we should start at a way more basic level. Why do I need to three stats to support power damage, but (especially in WvW, where condi duration is not really that relevant) one stat for condi damage? Why can I stat against power damage (with toughness), but not against condi damage (instead I need to use skills)? What is the design idea behind this asymmetry?

If we have damaging evades designed as it is for the Mirage, where you actually want to use your dodges to attack, why are you limited to two dodges, so that you can't really use the potential of this feature? Why are there so few other ways to trigger ambush attacks? it feels as if this design was not followed through to the end; you have one part of the design (let's have the ability to attack while dodging), without another part it connects to (example: better / more endurance regeneration, 3 dodges or something similiar) - just look around in WvW how many Mirages you still see and then tell me the current design line is a good idea.

Personally I find the inclusion of stealth mechanics combined with high movement abilities a lot more problematic than damaging evades.

But generally: It is what is is, and I think it works quite okay for most professions. The game isn't nearly as broken as some players on the forum make it sound. Just look around and show me one MMO that performs better overall.

Our opinions also vary greatly - for example I still think, that in a game, that calls itself an MMO, every class and every specialization should be designed in a way that it works in a large group context - of course not with the choice of every traitline, but at least one way of building a class should make it viable for large-scale group content. I personally do not think there should be room for a whole specialization being designed for a specific game mode, I personally do not think that a whole specialization no matter how you decide to trait it should be designed for roaming only.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:I said this along time ago when HoT came out that the worst balancing issue was in GW1, when shadowform was meta in PVE...it was literally a god mode button because you were immune to all damage and you can also deal damage. The idea that you could do damage while being invulnerable was inherently broken.It would be nice if someone lost most of their health after using an invulnerability skill.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Edit: Also, why is endure pain in WvW not using the 50% reduced duration PvP uses?

Because those DUMMIES dont get it that this mode is open world PvP not kitten open world PvE. Same goes for alot of other nerfs that exist in PvP but not in WvW (like revenant 50% staff 5 nerf or recent sword nerfs). Im literally laughing every time i see some cool stuff class balance things (which occur very rarely, but still) and then in the end there's written "in PvP". Who cares about forgotten WvW place, right? Also as far as I know Armstice Bastion has WvW balance instead of PvP one which is hillarious.

Btw another great Hitman post, perma hp - scourge xD, perma invul ele with focus - xD, perma hit crits damage mitigation ele - xD.I think you should wiki zhe "permanent" meaning.

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@"Loosmaster.8263" said:WvW has great build diversity. If you don't like it, go play sPvP where there is a known set of rules. I don't like being stun locked spammed and can't use any of my skills and die in 2-3 seconds. Nerf everything except my class please...

Said no one.

There dose need to be more down time to effect that stop you from taking dmg at the same time every class needs to have some fall back as being blowup from a one shot is not fun.

There needs to be a "cant be invuls debuff" right after an invuls skill is used. The thing is every class needs an invul skill that is not tide to an trate line or wepon.

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