ANET: Please rework Necromancer offhands.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Right now Necromancer is in a very weird place where all of our offhands... kinda suck.

Focus: #4 is an extremely low damage skill we use to gain 900 HP every 30 seconds? Also applies a total of 10 vuln and 22% life force, which is kinda cute I guess? Not sure where it's useful though. Meanwhile Focus #5 is useless unless foe has 3 or more boons. For PvE this is kinda useless, and for WvW it only affects one target. Again, the chill is cute, but is that the reason why people use this skill?

Warhorn: #4 is used for CC and is unblockable, which is cool. The problem is #5 was nerfed way too overkill. Since it no longer deals damage, it no longer synergizes with life steal traits like Vampirism, nor' curses traits to apply bleed. It also doesn't synergize with Soulcleave Summit or Soulbeast Stances. It also no longer cripples foes, and only lasts a fraction of its original duration. One of the coolest things about Warhorn used to be that we could cast it before going into Death Shroud and still continue to gain life force. Beyond swiftness, it's fairly useless now.

Not to mention the fact both offhands compete for niche of lifesteal and life force generation.

Only one decent offhand remains, Dagger: #4 transfers conditions and applies blind, which honestly makes this useful for Corruption builds. #5 is also useful in condi dmg rotations because it both applies bleed and weakness, while also converting boons to conditions. Cool. (Wonder why that's not mentioned in tooltip...)

Our OH weapons were already underperforming before patch, but now they just nerfed them. Could we get any love for our offhand weapons?

Personally I think the natural progression of all this is to make Warhorn our "CC" option, Focus our "Defensive" option, and Dagger our "Offensive" option. I would love to see Daggers OH changed in some way so that it constitutes a modest DPS increase in Dagger builds, while still fulfilling the role we love for condi builds. But I want to see our other OH weapons get love too.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Warhorn goes back to being good just by having Locust Swarm be reverted.

[Kulvar.1239]

Dagger OH has a good defensive/offensive balance and shouldn't be changed.

Warhorn needs a rework. The Swiftness could be moved from #5 to #4 and #5 improved.

Focus #4 doesn't applies 10 vuln and 22% LF because you can only cast it twice in row once per fight.It could be made into a 180 radius AoE so it scales with the number of foes.

I agree that Focus #5 issue is that it performs horribly against foes without boons. No boon removal + reduced damage.It should always deal the same damage than it deals for 1 boon currently..

[KrHome.1920]

@Kulvar.1239 said:Dagger OH has a good defensive/offensive balance and shouldn't be changed.It's the most unreliable and clunky offhand necro has.

Warhorn needs a rework. The Swiftness could be moved from #5 to #4 and #5 improved.It just needs to be reverted.

Focus #4 doesn't applies 10 vuln and 22% LF because you can only cast it twice in row once per fight.It could be made into a 180 radius AoE so it scales with the number of foes.Focus 4 just needs the ability to critical hit.

I agree that Focus #5 issue is that it performs horribly against foes without boons. No boon removal + reduced damage.It should always deal the same damage than it deals for 1 boon currently..Focus 5 is the best offhand skill necro has. You seem to forget that it chills for 6 seconds besides your mentioned functionality, adds a stack of 3 vulnerability when traited as a cover condition, is extremely hard to avoid from 1200 range as the animation is very subtile (for a skill that deals up to 12k damage) and it has a fairly low cooldown.

[Kulvar.1239]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Dagger OH has a good defensive/offensive balance and shouldn't be changed.It's the most unreliable and clunky offhand necro has.

Warhorn needs a rework. The Swiftness could be moved from #5 to #4 and #5 improved.It just needs to be reverted.

Focus #4 doesn't applies 10 vuln and 22% LF because you can only cast it twice in row once per fight.It could be made into a 180 radius AoE so it scales with the number of foes.Focus 4 just needs the ability to critical hit.

I agree that Focus #5 issue is that it performs horribly against foes without boons. No boon removal + reduced damage.It should always deal the same damage than it deals for 1 boon currently..Focus 5 is the best offhand skill necro has. You seem to forget that it chills for 6 seconds besides your mentioned functionality, adds a stack of 3 vulnerability when traited as a cover condition, is extremely hard to avoid from 1200 range as the animation is very subtile (for a skill that deals up to 12k damage) and it has a fairly low cooldown.

Which difficulties do you have with the AoE and/or the blind/condi transfer skill of dagger OH ?

I never questioned the efficiency of Focus #5 against a foe with 3 boons.I pointed that it's worthless against a foe without any boons.The damage coefficients could be smoothed (if not flaten).It would still be more effective to use it on foes with 3 boons (skill ceiling), but it wouldn't be useless against foes without boon (skill floor).0 boon : +140% damage (From 0.500 to 1.200)1 boon : +33% damage (From 1.125 to 1.500)2 boons : No change (1.875)3 boons : No change (2.625)In this exemple, the gap would go from 81% to 54%.

[LaGranse.8652]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Dagger OH has a good defensive/offensive balance and shouldn't be changed.It's the most unreliable and clunky offhand necro has.

Warhorn needs a rework. The Swiftness could be moved from #5 to #4 and #5 improved.It just needs to be reverted.

Focus #4 doesn't applies 10 vuln and 22% LF because you can only cast it twice in row once per fight.It could be made into a 180 radius AoE so it scales with the number of foes.Focus 4 just needs the ability to critical hit.

I agree that Focus #5 issue is that it performs horribly against foes without boons. No boon removal + reduced damage.It should always deal the same damage than it deals for 1 boon currently..Focus 5 is the best offhand skill necro has. You seem to forget that it chills for 6 seconds besides your mentioned functionality, adds a stack of 3 vulnerability when traited as a cover condition, is extremely hard to avoid from 1200 range as the animation is very subtile (for a skill that deals up to 12k damage) and it has a fairly low cooldown.

Which difficulties do you have with the AoE and/or the blind/condi transfer skill of dagger OH ?

I never questioned the efficiency of Focus #5 against a foe with 3 boons.I pointed that it's worthless against a foe without any boons.The damage coefficients could be smoothed (if not flaten).It would still be more effective to use it on foes with 3 boons (skill ceiling), but it wouldn't be useless against foes without boon (skill floor).0 boon : +140% damage (From 0.500 to 1.200)1 boon : +33% damage (From 1.125 to 1.500)2 boons : No change (1.875)3 boons : No change (2.625)In this exemple, the gap would go from 81% to 54%.

I personally prefer skills to be situational. If your target does not have any boons then don't use it until they do so, all classes (and many mobs) will have some boons at some point in a fight. Or use it for the chill component if the situation is right.

If the skill becomes such that it's more of an use when off cooldown skill then the damage it was allowed to have with situational use should be reduced.

[Lahmia.2193]

One thing I don't get about the change to Focus 4 is why it had to be life stealing. Necromancer already has skills that do damage (that can crit) and heals at the same time. There's no reason why the revamp couldn't have gone this route. Same with Warhorn 5.

[Kain Francois.4328]

I don't think anyone interested in game mechanics understands the change to focus #4.

Mightyteapot's podcast said ANET balances for roleplaying. Make of that what you will.

[Shroud.2307]

As long as they never change Spinal Shivers, I support changes to Necro offhands.

[Methuselah.4376]

I agree that Spinal Shivers should stay as is. Focus 4 should change to something similar to Guardian's focus 4, where the target is engulfed in a whirlwind of scythes that tick damage to target and enemies in a radius of 180 range, applies vulnerability and generates life force per tick. For warhorn, they should either allow lifesteal damage to crit (which won't affect who much you actually siphon) or revert the change. Also if they wanna keep the shorter duration on warhorn 5 they should give us a shorter cool down.

[Etterwyn.5263]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I don't think anyone interested in game mechanics understands the change to focus #4.

Mightyteapot's podcast said ANET balances for roleplaying. Make of that what you will.

I'd take the unreliable buggy version back, over the crap it got turned into. When it worked, it was amazing.

[Anchoku.8142]

Was there ever a good explanation for the change to war horn? I do not recall seeing one and just figured it was a flat nerf with a flowery explanation to make it sound like a quality-of-life improvement.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Agreed. I don't remember anyone asking for a change nor nerf. Warhorn's change was simply for the sake of change, ridiculous.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Theory: Next elite spec or major balance update will enhance or change how life life steal works. (but why didn't they just implement the change then?)

More likely theory: They balance for roleplay. ("NeCrO cAn StEaL lIfE z0mG!!!!!!")

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:Theory: Next elite spec or major balance update will enhance or change how life life steal works. (but why didn't they just implement the change then?)

My own theory lean more toward an elite spec that revolve around dark aura. It's higly unlikely that ANet will change how life steal work because they made it work like this purposedly.

More likely theory: They balance for roleplay. ("NeCrO cAn StEaL lIfE z0mG!!!!!!")

I wouldn't use the word "balance", it's more that they design things for roleplay and then try very hard to force those designed things onto the game. We just have to look at how hard they tried to force the boon corruption thing onto the game since HoT to realise that they are currently doing the same thing to life siphons. Maybe we can already be affraid of the next step which would be the generalisation of mechanisms like "taking on/copying conditions from allies" or "self harm effect".

NB.: It remind me of my young nephew trying to fit a round piece into a square hole.

[lare.5129]

please no.

[mindcircus.1506]

I was expecting to come into this thread and find a bunch of overpowered suggestions from people who want an already strong class to be further buffed.

I was not disappointed.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

@mindcircus.1506 said:I was expecting to come into this thread and find a bunch of overpowered suggestions from people who want an already strong class to be further buffed.

I was not disappointed.

Great. Now that we've quenched your thirst, do you have anything constructive to offer?

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Theory: Next elite spec or major balance update will enhance or change how life life steal works. (but why didn't they just implement the change then?)

My own theory lean more toward an elite spec that revolve around

dark aura

. It's higly unlikely that ANet will change how life steal work because they made it work like this purposedly.Cant say i would want that myself to be honest it jut paves the way for another condition focused elite spec considering dark aura inflicts torment on being hit and reduces incoming condi damage. Although adding a blast finisher to warhorn 4 or 5 or axe 3 to blast dark fields might not be so bad of an improvement change

Personally i think focus 4 should just be changed to strike damage instead of life steal damage this way it can crit again.Offhand dagger 5 could be a bit faster or turn it into a mark and i think it would be great

[Dadnir.5038]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:My own theory lean more toward an elite spec that revolve around

dark aura

. It's higly unlikely that ANet will change how life steal work because they made it work like this purposedly.Cant say i would want that myself to be honest it jut paves the way for another condition focused elite spec considering dark aura inflicts torment on being hit and reduces incoming condi damage.

Well, dark aura fit the necromancer but he got no way to get it. However I disagree with such an e-spec being necessarily a "condition elite spec", elementalist's tempest despite having a large access to fire aura isn't a "condition elite spec".

Just picture a spec that give the necromancer access to aura and a bunch of traits that proc on when you apply aura or when you are under the effect of an aura. Things like:

• grant barrier when you apply an aura.
• gain life force when you are struck while under the effect of an aura.
• gain 120 [stat] when under the effect of an aura.
• grant protection when you apply an aura.
• gain dark aura when you enter "shroud".
• a few weapon/utilities/special mechanic skills giving dark field or/and leap finisher
• a runeset related to auras with an effect like: tranfer a condition to foes in the radius when you apply an aura (which would be welcome for elementalists who are "aura kings").
• ... etc.

Little things like that can quickly add up and fill an e-spec traitline without having an e-spec specially reliant on condition damage.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:I was expecting to come into this thread and find a bunch of overpowered suggestions from people who want an already strong class to be further buffed.

I was not disappointed.

"Revert it plz" would make Warhorn overpowered?

Excuse me while I cast Blood is Power and cut my wrist.

[Blocki.4931]

Would be great enough if they made Locust Swarm actually count as a weapon kill again to allow me to get my Master achievement...

[Etterwyn.5263]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Was there ever a good explanation for the change to war horn? I do not recall seeing one and just figured it was a flat nerf with a flowery explanation to make it sound like a quality-of-life improvement.

I think you hit the nail. At first I thought it was a good thing (fast life force). Then I saw the cripple was gone. And the ability to crit was gone. And they made NO mention of that in the patch notes.

Here's your sugar-coated nerf guys. :s

[KrHome.1920]

@Etterwyn.5263 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Was there ever a good explanation for the change to war horn? I do not recall seeing one and just figured it was a flat nerf with a flowery explanation to make it sound like a quality-of-life improvement.

I think you hit the nail. At first I thought it was a good thing (fast life force). Then I saw the cripple was gone. And the ability to crit was gone. And they made NO mention of that in the patch notes.

Here's your sugar-coated nerf guys. :sYou forgot the dumb range reduction from 210 to 180. You can barely hit something with that skill and if you do the impact is a joke.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:My own theory lean more toward an elite spec that revolve around

dark aura

. It's higly unlikely that ANet will change how life steal work because they made it work like this purposedly.Cant say i would want that myself to be honest it jut paves the way for another condition focused elite spec considering dark aura inflicts torment on being hit and reduces incoming condi damage.

Well,

dark aura

fit the necromancer but he got no way to get it. However I disagree with such an e-spec being necessarily a "condition elite spec", elementalist's tempest despite having a large access to

fire aura

isn't a "condition elite spec".

Just picture a spec that give the necromancer access to aura and a bunch of traits that proc on when you apply aura or when you are under the effect of an aura. Things like:

• grant barrier when you apply an aura.
• gain life force when you are struck while under the effect of an aura.
• gain 120 [stat] when under the effect of an aura.
• grant protection when you apply an aura.
• gain
  dark aura
  when you enter "shroud".
• a few weapon/utilities/special mechanic skills giving dark field or/and leap finisher
• a runeset related to auras with an effect like: tranfer a condition to foes in the radius when you apply an aura (which would be welcome for elementalists who are "aura kings").
• ... etc.

Little things like that can quickly add up and fill an e-spec traitline without having an e-spec specially reliant on condition damage.

i mean this aint a bad idea but i dont think its enough to simply fill an a e-specs traitline with further more even more so if its mostly only focused on dark aura. I mean dark aura is nice but its gonna have to be some pretty op on proc traits to make it worth doing mostly around for a whole elite spec.

Dark aura came on kinda late and recently and i think they more so did it just because leaping through dark fields didnt do much or just because we have light aura so why not have a dark one. That said necro has some of the more generous dark fields in the game with the least access to trigger the aura themselves.Is not that your idea couldn't happen i just dont think the examples above even with a few more added are worthy of making it an elite spec focused only on such with necro particularly.