Never say something is too hard,

[zealex.9410]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Are you saying not having a disability makes you talented.Not having a disability gives you higher chances to succeed in using practice to overcome the lack of talent.For better or for worse ppl with disabilities are a minority and therefor should be the main focus of a game which never revolved around them to begin with.Top percentage players and METAelitists are a minority, too.Therefore, the game or balance should not revolve around them either.

The majority of players dont have disabilities holding them back therefore you can balance some stuff around something that for most is achieveable.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

Proplem is this old gw2 phrase "play how you want."

Players think that it means that they can do any content how they want and success. Even tho that phrase has nothing to do with skill lvl of instanced content.

this is a poor excuse sir/ma'amThe play how you want phrase was a marketing ploy directed towards the discussion regarding the RPG Group Trinity roles. It was very hyped up, but very poorly executed, since a Trinityless system pretty much is just a DPS fest. And all the instanced Dungeons had to be designed around small scale 5 man DPS fest. This limited many of the play styles and functions in the game, since DPS became the be all, end all of instanced content in Vanilla. This is why certain classes were shunned in PvE in Vanilla GW2.Utility/Support/Control, all those other non DPS roles that Anet were hyping up prior to the release of GW2 were exposed to be meaningless compared to another dps.

So people that liked those play styles, couldnt "Play how you want".

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

Proplem is this old gw2 phrase "play how you want."

Players think that it means that they can do any content how they want and success. Even tho that phrase has nothing to do with skill lvl of instanced content.

this is a poor excuse sir/ma'amThe play how you want phrase was a marketing ploy directed towards the discussion regarding the RPG Group Trinity roles. It was very hyped up, but very poorly executed, since a Trinityless system pretty much is just a DPS fest. And all the instanced Dungeons had to be designed around small scale 5 man DPS fest. This limited many of the play styles and functions in the game, since DPS became the be all, end all of instanced content in Vanilla. This is why certain classes were shunned in PvE in Vanilla GW2.Utility/Support/Control, all those other non DPS roles that Anet were hyping up prior to the release of GW2 were exposed to be meaningless compared to another dps.

So people that liked those play styles, couldnt "Play how you want".

Wrong. Ppl like that could play with whatever build/playstyle and still finish the content. However players who wanted to play with pure dps could also play how they want.You had always the option to play with your friends and be the support or control class.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.And ppl like that are not the majority of this game. Should we set difficulty of every game in a lvl that my friend can play every part of every game? He is missing one hand btw.That comment was more about how practice is not guaranteed to make up for lack of talent.I never meant to imply a game should be balanced around handicapped people.But I equally disagree about a game being designed around the top 5% of players, nor should most instanced content cater to these outliers.People should know their limits and, based on that, choose the content they try.

The ideal solution would be different difficulties for instanced content, but Anet apparently isn't fond of that idea.We already have different difficulties for instanced content. We have first strike mission, dhuum CM and everything between that. Or is this another make easy mode for boss X request?

Different difficulties for

all

instanced content, as a blanket change, not tied to only specific bosses,

should

not be too much to ask.But difficulties can't be sold on the gem shop.

Thus has been discussed many times already. Its almost impossible to make easy mode for raids unless its a faceroll without rewards.

I disagree. This has never been proven. Instanced Raids can be difficulty scaled down like dungeons can be difficulty scaled up to be as hard as a raid. Problem is, most MMO developers are very conservative when it comes to "RAIDS ARE HARDCORE OR NOT AT ALL" mentality from EQ, and just refuse to see raids outside the box of what they are, which is just a large group dungeon. Nothing it stopping developers from making a larger scale dungeon, other than the developers themselves.

Prime example of this is Vanilla WoW- WoTLK. They also had the same conservative mentality when it came to Raids and the Difficulty. But early on endgame party dungeons could be scaled to 10 players instead of 5 players. Did that make them suddenly turn Molten Core level difficulty because 10 players are in the instance now instead of 5 players max? Of course it didnt. Thats the point. Raids can be scaled down just like that to be useful content for casuals as well as hard core.

Same applies to Dungeons and 5 man instances. WoW in WoTLK added Hardcore Dungeons with pretty much Raid tier difficulty. Not sure if they still do that now, but I remember some of them even requiring raid gear on my Paladin tank back then.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.And ppl like that are not the majority of this game. Should we set difficulty of every game in a lvl that my friend can play every part of every game? He is missing one hand btw.That comment was more about how practice is not guaranteed to make up for lack of talent.I never meant to imply a game should be balanced around handicapped people.But I equally disagree about a game being designed around the top 5% of players, nor should most instanced content cater to these outliers.People should know their limits and, based on that, choose the content they try.

The ideal solution would be different difficulties for instanced content, but Anet apparently isn't fond of that idea.We already have different difficulties for instanced content. We have first strike mission, dhuum CM and everything between that. Or is this another make easy mode for boss X request?

Different difficulties for

all

instanced content, as a blanket change, not tied to only specific bosses,

should

not be too much to ask.But difficulties can't be sold on the gem shop.

Thus has been discussed many times already. Its almost impossible to make easy mode for raids unless its a faceroll without rewards.

I disagree. This has never been proven. Instanced Raids can be difficulty scaled down like dungeons can be difficulty scaled up to be as hard as a raid. Problem is, most MMO developers are very conservative when it comes to "RAIDS ARE HARDCORE OR NOT AT ALL" mentality from EQ, and just refuse to see raids outside the box of what they are, which is just a large group dungeon. Nothing it stopping developers from making a larger scale dungeon, other than the developers themselves.

Prime example of this is Vanilla WoW- WoTLK. They also had the same conservative mentality when it came to Raids and the Difficulty. But early on endgame party dungeons could be scaled to 10 players instead of 5 players. Did that make them suddenly turn Molten Core level difficulty because 10 players are in the instance now instead of 5 players max? Of course it didnt. Thats the point. Raids can be scaled down just like that to be useful content for casuals as well as hard core.

Same applies to Dungeons and 5 man instances. WoW in WoTLK added Hardcore Dungeons with pretty much Raid tier difficulty. Not sure if they still do that now, but I remember some of them even requiring raid gear on my Paladin tank back then.

Yes but with what cost? First of all most raid encounters can be nerfed easily, thats not the proplem. However what rewards these easier raids should offer as even current raid rewards are kinda bad.Second how would you make them easier without making them too easy?And last, Is it worth it? Like really, do we have enough players intrested killing high HP golems without rewards?

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

Proplem is this old gw2 phrase "play how you want."

Players think that it means that they can do any content how they want and success. Even tho that phrase has nothing to do with skill lvl of instanced content.

this is a poor excuse sir/ma'amThe play how you want phrase was a marketing ploy directed towards the discussion regarding the RPG Group Trinity roles. It was very hyped up, but very poorly executed, since a Trinityless system pretty much is just a DPS fest. And all the instanced Dungeons had to be designed around small scale 5 man DPS fest. This limited many of the play styles and functions in the game, since DPS became the be all, end all of instanced content in Vanilla. This is why certain classes were shunned in PvE in Vanilla GW2.Utility/Support/Control, all those other non DPS roles that Anet were hyping up prior to the release of GW2 were exposed to be meaningless compared to another dps.

So people that liked those play styles, couldnt "Play how you want".

Wrong. Ppl like that could play with whatever build/playstyle and still finish the content. However players who wanted to play with pure dps could also play how they want.You had always the option to play with your friends and be the support or control class.

no you couldnt. early Vanilla GW2 didnt even have break bars back then. And nobody wanted players for Non DPS roles. Classes with worst DPS overall were shunned. I remember this inclusively for Necromancers.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

Proplem is this old gw2 phrase "play how you want."

Players think that it means that they can do any content how they want and success. Even tho that phrase has nothing to do with skill lvl of instanced content.

this is a poor excuse sir/ma'amThe play how you want phrase was a marketing ploy directed towards the discussion regarding the RPG Group Trinity roles. It was very hyped up, but very poorly executed, since a Trinityless system pretty much is just a DPS fest. And all the instanced Dungeons had to be designed around small scale 5 man DPS fest. This limited many of the play styles and functions in the game, since DPS became the be all, end all of instanced content in Vanilla. This is why certain classes were shunned in PvE in Vanilla GW2.Utility/Support/Control, all those other non DPS roles that Anet were hyping up prior to the release of GW2 were exposed to be meaningless compared to another dps.

So people that liked those play styles, couldnt "Play how you want".

Wrong. Ppl like that could play with whatever build/playstyle and still finish the content. However players who wanted to play with pure dps could also play how they want.You had always the option to play with your friends and be the support or control class.

no you couldnt. early Vanilla GW2 didnt even have break bars back then. And nobody wanted players for Non DPS roles. Classes with worst DPS overall were shunned. I remember this inclusively for Necromancers.

No breakbars but you could still stun/pull etc bosses.And yes you could still play heal or control. Maybe pug groups wont let you do that but it def was possible to clear content like that. I know many players who played heal in dungeons with friends.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.And ppl like that are not the majority of this game. Should we set difficulty of every game in a lvl that my friend can play every part of every game? He is missing one hand btw.That comment was more about how practice is not guaranteed to make up for lack of talent.I never meant to imply a game should be balanced around handicapped people.But I equally disagree about a game being designed around the top 5% of players, nor should most instanced content cater to these outliers.People should know their limits and, based on that, choose the content they try.

The ideal solution would be different difficulties for instanced content, but Anet apparently isn't fond of that idea.We already have different difficulties for instanced content. We have first strike mission, dhuum CM and everything between that. Or is this another make easy mode for boss X request?

Different difficulties for

all

instanced content, as a blanket change, not tied to only specific bosses,

should

not be too much to ask.But difficulties can't be sold on the gem shop.

Thus has been discussed many times already. Its almost impossible to make easy mode for raids unless its a faceroll without rewards.

I disagree. This has never been proven. Instanced Raids can be difficulty scaled down like dungeons can be difficulty scaled up to be as hard as a raid. Problem is, most MMO developers are very conservative when it comes to "RAIDS ARE HARDCORE OR NOT AT ALL" mentality from EQ, and just refuse to see raids outside the box of what they are, which is just a large group dungeon. Nothing it stopping developers from making a larger scale dungeon, other than the developers themselves.

Prime example of this is Vanilla WoW- WoTLK. They also had the same conservative mentality when it came to Raids and the Difficulty. But early on endgame party dungeons could be scaled to 10 players instead of 5 players. Did that make them suddenly turn Molten Core level difficulty because 10 players are in the instance now instead of 5 players max? Of course it didnt. Thats the point. Raids can be scaled down just like that to be useful content for casuals as well as hard core.

Same applies to Dungeons and 5 man instances. WoW in WoTLK added Hardcore Dungeons with pretty much Raid tier difficulty. Not sure if they still do that now, but I remember some of them even requiring raid gear on my Paladin tank back then.

Yes but with what cost? First of all most raid encounters can be nerfed easily, thats not the proplem. However what rewards these easier raids should offer as even current raid rewards are kinda bad.Second how would you make them easier without making them too easy?And last, Is it worth it? Like really, do we have enough players intrested killing high HP golems without rewards?

Reward should be the same reward system they came up with for Dungeons back in Vanilla. Unique skins, unique runes/sigs, unique currency, etc, just like Dungeons were done. And if Housing ever gets added, unique decoration drops. wahlah

[Fueki.4753]

I never saw any problems with my Vanilla Necromancer.But then again, I avoided entitled Elitists pretty hard back then.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.And ppl like that are not the majority of this game. Should we set difficulty of every game in a lvl that my friend can play every part of every game? He is missing one hand btw.That comment was more about how practice is not guaranteed to make up for lack of talent.I never meant to imply a game should be balanced around handicapped people.But I equally disagree about a game being designed around the top 5% of players, nor should most instanced content cater to these outliers.People should know their limits and, based on that, choose the content they try.

The ideal solution would be different difficulties for instanced content, but Anet apparently isn't fond of that idea.We already have different difficulties for instanced content. We have first strike mission, dhuum CM and everything between that. Or is this another make easy mode for boss X request?

Different difficulties for

all

instanced content, as a blanket change, not tied to only specific bosses,

should

not be too much to ask.But difficulties can't be sold on the gem shop.

Thus has been discussed many times already. Its almost impossible to make easy mode for raids unless its a faceroll without rewards.

I disagree. This has never been proven. Instanced Raids can be difficulty scaled down like dungeons can be difficulty scaled up to be as hard as a raid. Problem is, most MMO developers are very conservative when it comes to "RAIDS ARE HARDCORE OR NOT AT ALL" mentality from EQ, and just refuse to see raids outside the box of what they are, which is just a large group dungeon. Nothing it stopping developers from making a larger scale dungeon, other than the developers themselves.

Prime example of this is Vanilla WoW- WoTLK. They also had the same conservative mentality when it came to Raids and the Difficulty. But early on endgame party dungeons could be scaled to 10 players instead of 5 players. Did that make them suddenly turn Molten Core level difficulty because 10 players are in the instance now instead of 5 players max? Of course it didnt. Thats the point. Raids can be scaled down just like that to be useful content for casuals as well as hard core.

Same applies to Dungeons and 5 man instances. WoW in WoTLK added Hardcore Dungeons with pretty much Raid tier difficulty. Not sure if they still do that now, but I remember some of them even requiring raid gear on my Paladin tank back then.

Yes but with what cost? First of all most raid encounters can be nerfed easily, thats not the proplem. However what rewards these easier raids should offer as even current raid rewards are kinda bad.Second how would you make them easier without making them too easy?And last, Is it worth it? Like really, do we have enough players intrested killing high HP golems without rewards?

Reward should be the same reward system they came up with for Dungeons back in Vanilla. Unique skins, unique runes/sigs, unique currency, etc, just like Dungeons were done. And if Housing ever gets added, unique decoration drops. wahlah

So easy mode raids would have less rewards than normal raids, no option to get magnetic shards or LIs or gold? Or if there is a gold reward how much is it and is it also only once/week?

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

Proplem is this old gw2 phrase "play how you want."

Players think that it means that they can do any content how they want and success. Even tho that phrase has nothing to do with skill lvl of instanced content.

this is a poor excuse sir/ma'amThe play how you want phrase was a marketing ploy directed towards the discussion regarding the RPG Group Trinity roles. It was very hyped up, but very poorly executed, since a Trinityless system pretty much is just a DPS fest. And all the instanced Dungeons had to be designed around small scale 5 man DPS fest. This limited many of the play styles and functions in the game, since DPS became the be all, end all of instanced content in Vanilla. This is why certain classes were shunned in PvE in Vanilla GW2.Utility/Support/Control, all those other non DPS roles that Anet were hyping up prior to the release of GW2 were exposed to be meaningless compared to another dps.

So people that liked those play styles, couldnt "Play how you want".

Wrong. Ppl like that could play with whatever build/playstyle and still finish the content. However players who wanted to play with pure dps could also play how they want.You had always the option to play with your friends and be the support or control class.

no you couldnt. early Vanilla GW2 didnt even have break bars back then. And nobody wanted players for Non DPS roles. Classes with worst DPS overall were shunned. I remember this inclusively for Necromancers.

No breakbars but you could still stun/pull etc bosses.And yes you could still play heal or control. Maybe pug groups wont let you do that but it def was possible to clear content like that. I know many players who played heal in dungeons with friends.

exceptions to the rules dont make the rules. You and others you know that didnt play heavy dps roles may have been able to play exclusively with friends. But the vast majority of us played with pugs and with that came Min/Maxing which generally most people do in a MMO game period. And most of the time people wanted max DPS. Since non DPS roles were meaningless to the advancement in grouped content.

Control effects were hit or miss pre break bar, hence the reason break bar was added. Control was practically useless back then unless it happens to be a skill in your DPS rotation that didnt hamper your dps to just spam it. But besides that, it was useless. Heals were useless beyond your own self heal. Even blasting a Water field provided better heals than a support healer build could dish out. And anybody pretty much could do that in full DPS gear, hence Dungeon Stacking. The Anti Trinity hype was a joke as we see many years later.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.And ppl like that are not the majority of this game. Should we set difficulty of every game in a lvl that my friend can play every part of every game? He is missing one hand btw.That comment was more about how practice is not guaranteed to make up for lack of talent.I never meant to imply a game should be balanced around handicapped people.But I equally disagree about a game being designed around the top 5% of players, nor should most instanced content cater to these outliers.People should know their limits and, based on that, choose the content they try.

The ideal solution would be different difficulties for instanced content, but Anet apparently isn't fond of that idea.We already have different difficulties for instanced content. We have first strike mission, dhuum CM and everything between that. Or is this another make easy mode for boss X request?

Different difficulties for

all

instanced content, as a blanket change, not tied to only specific bosses,

should

not be too much to ask.But difficulties can't be sold on the gem shop.

Thus has been discussed many times already. Its almost impossible to make easy mode for raids unless its a faceroll without rewards.

I disagree. This has never been proven. Instanced Raids can be difficulty scaled down like dungeons can be difficulty scaled up to be as hard as a raid. Problem is, most MMO developers are very conservative when it comes to "RAIDS ARE HARDCORE OR NOT AT ALL" mentality from EQ, and just refuse to see raids outside the box of what they are, which is just a large group dungeon. Nothing it stopping developers from making a larger scale dungeon, other than the developers themselves.

Prime example of this is Vanilla WoW- WoTLK. They also had the same conservative mentality when it came to Raids and the Difficulty. But early on endgame party dungeons could be scaled to 10 players instead of 5 players. Did that make them suddenly turn Molten Core level difficulty because 10 players are in the instance now instead of 5 players max? Of course it didnt. Thats the point. Raids can be scaled down just like that to be useful content for casuals as well as hard core.

Same applies to Dungeons and 5 man instances. WoW in WoTLK added Hardcore Dungeons with pretty much Raid tier difficulty. Not sure if they still do that now, but I remember some of them even requiring raid gear on my Paladin tank back then.

Yes but with what cost? First of all most raid encounters can be nerfed easily, thats not the proplem. However what rewards these easier raids should offer as even current raid rewards are kinda bad.Second how would you make them easier without making them too easy?And last, Is it worth it? Like really, do we have enough players intrested killing high HP golems without rewards?

Reward should be the same reward system they came up with for Dungeons back in Vanilla. Unique skins, unique runes/sigs, unique currency, etc, just like Dungeons were done. And if Housing ever gets added, unique decoration drops. wahlah

So easy mode raids would have less rewards than normal raids, no option to get magnetic shards or LIs or gold? Or if there is a gold reward how much is it and is it also only once/week?

Harder stuff gives better rewards. Does Fire Ele Meta give 100% the same reward as Teq? No. So whats different about that here? the Casual version of Raids would just be a Dungeon, and have its own Dungeon like rewards. Higher hardcore difficulty would still get its legendary components and its own skins and drops just like now. Same content space, but totally different modes of gameplay,

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

Proplem is this old gw2 phrase "play how you want."

Players think that it means that they can do any content how they want and success. Even tho that phrase has nothing to do with skill lvl of instanced content.

this is a poor excuse sir/ma'amThe play how you want phrase was a marketing ploy directed towards the discussion regarding the RPG Group Trinity roles. It was very hyped up, but very poorly executed, since a Trinityless system pretty much is just a DPS fest. And all the instanced Dungeons had to be designed around small scale 5 man DPS fest. This limited many of the play styles and functions in the game, since DPS became the be all, end all of instanced content in Vanilla. This is why certain classes were shunned in PvE in Vanilla GW2.Utility/Support/Control, all those other non DPS roles that Anet were hyping up prior to the release of GW2 were exposed to be meaningless compared to another dps.

So people that liked those play styles, couldnt "Play how you want".

Wrong. Ppl like that could play with whatever build/playstyle and still finish the content. However players who wanted to play with pure dps could also play how they want.You had always the option to play with your friends and be the support or control class.

no you couldnt. early Vanilla GW2 didnt even have break bars back then. And nobody wanted players for Non DPS roles. Classes with worst DPS overall were shunned. I remember this inclusively for Necromancers.

No breakbars but you could still stun/pull etc bosses.And yes you could still play heal or control. Maybe pug groups wont let you do that but it def was possible to clear content like that. I know many players who played heal in dungeons with friends.

exceptions to the rules dont make the rules. You and others you know that didnt play heavy dps roles may have been able to play exclusively with friends. But the vast majority of us played with pugs and with that came Min/Maxing which generally most people do in a MMO game period. And most of the time people wanted max DPS. Since non DPS roles were meaningless to the advancement in grouped content.

Control effects were hit or miss pre break bar, hence the reason break bar was added. Control was practically useless back then unless it happens to be a skill in your DPS rotation that didnt hamper your dps to just spam it. But besides that, it was useless. Heals were useless beyond your own self heal. Even blasting a Water field provided better heals than a support healer build could dish out. And anybody pretty much could do that in full DPS gear, hence Dungeon Stacking. The Anti Trinity hype was a joke as we see many years later.

Im a min maxer by hear, but i know that it was possible to clear dungeons with weird party compositions. It was always an option ingame even if most players wanted a pure dps groups.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.And ppl like that are not the majority of this game. Should we set difficulty of every game in a lvl that my friend can play every part of every game? He is missing one hand btw.That comment was more about how practice is not guaranteed to make up for lack of talent.I never meant to imply a game should be balanced around handicapped people.But I equally disagree about a game being designed around the top 5% of players, nor should most instanced content cater to these outliers.People should know their limits and, based on that, choose the content they try.

The ideal solution would be different difficulties for instanced content, but Anet apparently isn't fond of that idea.We already have different difficulties for instanced content. We have first strike mission, dhuum CM and everything between that. Or is this another make easy mode for boss X request?

Different difficulties for

all

instanced content, as a blanket change, not tied to only specific bosses,

should

not be too much to ask.But difficulties can't be sold on the gem shop.

Thus has been discussed many times already. Its almost impossible to make easy mode for raids unless its a faceroll without rewards.

I disagree. This has never been proven. Instanced Raids can be difficulty scaled down like dungeons can be difficulty scaled up to be as hard as a raid. Problem is, most MMO developers are very conservative when it comes to "RAIDS ARE HARDCORE OR NOT AT ALL" mentality from EQ, and just refuse to see raids outside the box of what they are, which is just a large group dungeon. Nothing it stopping developers from making a larger scale dungeon, other than the developers themselves.

Prime example of this is Vanilla WoW- WoTLK. They also had the same conservative mentality when it came to Raids and the Difficulty. But early on endgame party dungeons could be scaled to 10 players instead of 5 players. Did that make them suddenly turn Molten Core level difficulty because 10 players are in the instance now instead of 5 players max? Of course it didnt. Thats the point. Raids can be scaled down just like that to be useful content for casuals as well as hard core.

Same applies to Dungeons and 5 man instances. WoW in WoTLK added Hardcore Dungeons with pretty much Raid tier difficulty. Not sure if they still do that now, but I remember some of them even requiring raid gear on my Paladin tank back then.

Yes but with what cost? First of all most raid encounters can be nerfed easily, thats not the proplem. However what rewards these easier raids should offer as even current raid rewards are kinda bad.Second how would you make them easier without making them too easy?And last, Is it worth it? Like really, do we have enough players intrested killing high HP golems without rewards?

Reward should be the same reward system they came up with for Dungeons back in Vanilla. Unique skins, unique runes/sigs, unique currency, etc, just like Dungeons were done. And if Housing ever gets added, unique decoration drops. wahlah

So easy mode raids would have less rewards than normal raids, no option to get magnetic shards or LIs or gold? Or if there is a gold reward how much is it and is it also only once/week?

Harder stuff gives better rewards. Does Fire Ele Meta give 100% the same reward as Teq? No. So whats different about that here? the Casual version of Raids would just be a Dungeon, and have its own Dungeon like rewards. Higher hardcore difficulty would still get its legendary components and its own skins and drops just like now. Same content space, but totally different modes of gameplay,

So boring gameplay with bad rewards. Im not against that as long as it wont overlap with raid rewards. Not sure would that be popular or not but not my proplem.

[Fueki.4753]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:You and others you know that didnt play heavy dps roles may have been able to play exclusively with friends.I rarely played with 'friends' and I successfully played Arah paths with a full soldier Warrior.

most of the time people wanted max DPS. Since non DPS roles were meaningless to the advancement in grouped content.People were happy that I face tanked Lupi.

Control effects were hit or miss pre break bar, hence the reason break bar was added.Before break bars came to be, bosses had stacks Defiance buffs. Any one CC (except maybe Daze, I didn't play much Mesmer back then) would remove one stack. break bars came later, when Anet decided to give different CC values to different CC.

The Anti Trinity hype was a joke as we see many years later.And it killed Monks. I still consider that the worst mistake of the game.

[kratan.4619]

Odd how when it is in instanced content it is a "mechanic" to learn, and it is a good thing, but if it is in open world people call it a "gimmick" and that is a bad thing.

[AgentMoore.9453]

This thread is a pretty long-winded way of saying 'git gud'.

It might be more helpful to post something encouraging for players, perhaps present links to content guides or an explanation of methods that might help someone gain an edge on challenging content. Instead, you're essentially saying that people who find content difficult just need to get over it because difficulty is good for them, and that's not any kind of explanation for why you believe difficulty is good.

Challenges in games can be fun, but there's no fun in being told that if you're having trouble, you just need to get better. Help people get better. Tell them what has worked for you.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.And then you have people with natural physiological and neural disadvantages, like slower reaction times, in which cases practices won't help at all.Practise never is a 100% solution to anything.

Let's be honest, people with these issues are never the target audience for a game like GW2. Why? GW2's mechanics revolve around reaction and mobility. It's designed for people who have normal to fast reaction times, like many PvP first person shooter games.

And ArenaNet should not change the target audience to adhere to the qualified minority.

@"AgentMoore.9453" said:This thread is a pretty long-winded way of saying 'git gud'.And there comes a point where that is the answer. "Get better and if you can't, then this simply isn't for you."

But the thing is, GW2's skill threshold is abysmally low. Barring raids and challenge mode 99/100 fractals, anyone without a physical or mental disability should be capable of completing any aspect of the game. So if you're having trouble, then the issue usually is that you need to get better - be it by changing your build setup, or by learning the mechanics of the encounter.

People like to treat the concept of telling others to improve as an insult in the gaming community, but it isn't. It can be used as an insult, but like all things in reality, words are merely a tool that can be used for good or ill, and the phrase has no inherent negative association unless you give it such. And those who give it negative associations regardless of the context of the discussion - like it seems you are - are simply unwilling to improve themselves in any fashion.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And ArenaNet should not change the target audience to adhere to the qualified minority.And therefore, Anet should not change the target audience to the minority that is raiders and elitists.

Barring raids and challenge mode 99/100 fractals, anyone without a physical or mental disability should be capable of completing any aspect of the game. So if you're having trouble, then the issue usually is that you need to get better - be it by changing your build setup, or by learning the mechanics of the encounter.Treating the game as a second job, rather than enjoying it, is never a good idea.Different difficulties open more of the game for more people, which is nothing but positive.

People like to treat the concept of telling others to improve as an insult in the gaming community, but it isn't.Telling other to "git gud" isn't telling others to improve. It's always been a term to mock other players.

[LucianDK.8615]

If you begin to cater to the lowest skilled, then all challenge will eventually be washed out.

[Fueki.4753]

Noone says anything about catering towards the lower end players.It's the average skill level that should be cared for most.

[ReActif.9251]

More importantly, don't come and ask the community any questions by playing through other players, you'll avoid various worries later on.

[Randulf.7614]

I'm not 100% sure who this thread is aimed at. I suspect the vast majority of players who get frustrated with the difficulty of things like (and lets just say Boneskinner since that is why you made this post) wont see this thread are just going to abandon the content on 1-2 tries. The problem with that is, this strike mission will then become limited in appeal and suffer from longevity issues.

Either Anet are happy for that as it meets their design philosophy or they want it to be more accessible. Rather than banging on about "I saw a streamer do it so it's fine" or "get gud" or "stop moaning about something being hard" or also "nerf plox too hard", it is better for players just to give their own constructive feedback about how they feel the associated piece of content.

Anet can figure it out for themselves from quality level feedback and use metrics from those who don't visit feedback places to aid them.

Ultimately, Boneskinner is too hard for me, but I rather enjoyed the trying. I have no issue with that. But, should I get good enough to beat it with a team for any medal, it feels too much work to want to beat it over and over for rewards that just aren't really worth it. I'd be pretty certain in my guess that players are less forgiving in their attitude than I am towards such things. Strike missions are a bridge - an accessible taste of raiding and higher level instanced content that can be done on daily basis or regular enough for players to dip in/out of. They aren't meant to be replacement for raids and I certainly don't think raiders should have them as replacements either.

If they do keep such a difficulty and it is at the level they want it to be, then I think it should be better rewarded versus the other missions.

[kharmin.7683]

No one deserves to be mocked. That doesn't help anyone other than the one doing the mocking (it makes them feel superior). It would be better to try to educate rather than mock and, if one cannot do that, then simply don't say anything at all and move on.

[kharmin.7683]

Part of the issue might be where the requests for help are being posted. Posting difficulty with parts of the game in the General Discussion forum is more likely to garner those git gud posts whereas posting in the Players Helping Players forum might offer a better experience.

/me shrugs