Never say something is too hard,

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The problem with rising to the challenge is convincing everyone else to do the same. This is the same problem with serpent's ire: It is very doable, but everyone just complains and quits because it is too hard. At a certain point, you have to make the content for the players.

[zealex.9410]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And ArenaNet should not change the target audience to adhere to the qualified minority.And therefore, Anet should not change the target audience to the minority that is raiders and elitists.

Barring raids and challenge mode 99/100 fractals, anyone without a physical or mental disability should be capable of completing any aspect of the game. So if you're having trouble, then the issue usually is that you need to get better - be it by changing your build setup, or by learning the mechanics of the encounter.Treating the game as a second job, rather than enjoying it, is never a good idea.Different difficulties open more of the game for more people, which is nothing but positive.

The game doesnt have enough stuff to do in to get to the second job status not now, not back when w5 released, adding harder content isnt making a second job, adding silly grinds is.

People like to treat the concept of telling others to improve as an insult in the gaming community, but it isn't.Telling other to "git gud" isn't telling others to improve. It's always been a term to

mock

other players.

Did i miss ppl saying "git gud"?

[zealex.9410]

@"Randulf.7614" said:I'm not 100% sure who this thread is aimed at. I suspect the vast majority of players who get frustrated with the difficulty of things like (and lets just say Boneskinner since that is why you made this post) wont see this thread are just going to abandon the content on 1-2 tries. The problem with that is, this strike mission will then become limited in appeal and suffer from longevity issues.

Either Anet are happy for that as it meets their design philosophy or they want it to be more accessible. Rather than banging on about "I saw a streamer do it so it's fine" or "get gud" or "stop moaning about something being hard" or also "nerf plox too hard", it is better for players just to give their own constructive feedback about how they feel the associated piece of content.

Anet can figure it out for themselves from quality level feedback and use metrics from those who don't visit feedback places to aid them.

Ultimately, Boneskinner is too hard for me, but I rather enjoyed the trying. I have no issue with that. But, should I get good enough to beat it with a team for any medal, it feels too much work to want to beat it over and over for rewards that just aren't really worth it. I'd be pretty certain in my guess that players are less forgiving in their attitude than I am towards such things. Strike missions are a bridge - an accessible taste of raiding and higher level instanced content that can be done on daily basis or regular enough for players to dip in/out of. They aren't meant to be replacement for raids and I certainly don't think raiders should have them as replacements either.

If they do keep such a difficulty and it is at the level they want it to be, then I think it should be better rewarded versus the other missions.

Then they should buff all the previous strikes as well of they gonna nerf this (if it needs nerfing) one because the rest fail their target. Strikes are supposed to be entry lvl content to get you into raids, rn the first 3 are entry lvl to get you into fractals.

[Randulf.7614]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:I'm not 100% sure who this thread is aimed at. I suspect the vast majority of players who get frustrated with the difficulty of things like (and lets just say Boneskinner since that is why you made this post) wont see this thread are just going to abandon the content on 1-2 tries. The problem with that is, this strike mission will then become limited in appeal and suffer from longevity issues.

Either Anet are happy for that as it meets their design philosophy or they want it to be more accessible. Rather than banging on about "I saw a streamer do it so it's fine" or "get gud" or "stop moaning about something being hard" or also "nerf plox too hard", it is better for players just to give their own constructive feedback about how they feel the associated piece of content.

Anet can figure it out for themselves from quality level feedback and use metrics from those who don't visit feedback places to aid them.

Ultimately, Boneskinner is too hard for me, but I rather enjoyed the trying. I have no issue with that. But, should I get good enough to beat it with a team for any medal, it feels too much work to want to beat it over and over for rewards that just aren't really worth it. I'd be pretty certain in my guess that players are less forgiving in their attitude than I am towards such things. Strike missions are a bridge - an accessible taste of raiding and higher level instanced content that can be done on daily basis or regular enough for players to dip in/out of. They aren't meant to be replacement for raids and I certainly don't think raiders should have them as replacements either.

If they do keep such a difficulty and it is at the level they want it to be, then I think it should be better rewarded versus the other missions.

Then they should buff all the previous strikes as well of they gonna nerf this (if it needs nerfing) one because the rest fail their target. Strikes are supposed to be entry lvl content to get you into raids, rn the first 3 are entry lvl to get you into fractals.

No I disagree with that. They are higher than T1 fractal without question. They sit at t2 maybe t3 at a push. They def aren’t entry level to fractals. I think they are fine difficulty wise either way. As a so far “non raider” I found them to be encouraging to want to try more.

Except Grothmar. That isn’t even entry level story difficulty for a boss. But I think that was intended.

[Fueki.4753]

@"zealex.9410" said:The game doesnt have enough stuff to do in to get to the second job status not now, not back when w5 released, adding harder content isnt making a second job, adding silly grinds is.For some people, having to learn META builds and rotations to play content of higher difficulty is tedious enough to deserve the term 'second job'.That term is not exclusive to tedious grinds, even if grinding is the most common thing people think of, when reading the term.

Did i miss ppl saying "git gud"?This apparently was my misinterpretation of a previous comment.

[Zexanima.7851]

Something is too hard

it had to be done

[Randulf.7614]

@Zexanima.7851 said:Something is too hard

it had to be done

I resisted the temptation all day ?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I finally managed to beat the darn thing. It took over two hours, but I finally managed to do it. I can relate to... basically all sentiments expressed in this thread.

On the one hand, this is far harder than any other strike mission I've been on. It's about equivalent to a tier 4 fractal boss... one of the harder ones like Twilight Oasis and Siren's Reef. It's hard enough that "Play How I Want" builds aren't going to cut it. There's a soft time-limit with how quickly Boneskinner summons the wisps, and a hard time limit with how quickly Boneskinner permanently destroys the torches. If you want to have any chance of winning, you'll need quickness + alacrity + healers, and everybody else in full glass cannon gear.

On the other hand, the biggest problem I had with this is the other players. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be. "I'm supposed to light the torch? I thought I was supposed to just die 15 times over with you explaining to me how to beat the boss every time I fail! I thought when you said 'everybody kill the wisps' it meant 'but not me'!" Seriously, I cannot fathom how somebody will join a squad, refuse to cooperate, fail 10 times in a row, and then quit instead of trying the damn strategy that everyone discusses before every attempt. It isn't just one person; it is nearly all of them. Only two or three guys in any squad are actually trying to win. Everyone else might as well be a Casio-controlled AI. If these guys saw what Artsariiv is like, their brains would melt.

[Dante.1763]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The problem with rising to the challenge is convincing everyone else to do the same. This is the same problem with serpent's ire: It is very doable, but everyone just complains and quits because it is too hard. At a certain point, you have to make the content for the players.

But hey, theyd rather push content for the minority on either side instead of making it for the middle ground. The SM for boneskinner as it is now, is definitely going to make players lose interest in SMs. If the point of SMs was to get players into raids im not sure if its working. The spike in difficulty is way to much.

[Dreams.3128]

@Fueki.4753 said:Noone says anything about catering towards the lower end players.It's the average skill level that should be cared for most.

The 'skill level' of the average gw2 player is abysmally low. Go look at the average skill of an FF, WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar (when it was alive), PSO2, BDO, ESO and other MMOs. Now compare them to gw2. The gap is so incredibly large it is almost a -shock- to most players that try and play this game. Our high-tier content would be average content in any other MMO.

You can cater to average skilled player all you want, but when there's those few that want to do more and find nothing, then that's not a sustainable model anymore. That's not long-term.

[Dante.1763]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Noone says anything about catering towards the lower end players.It's the average skill level that should be cared for most.

The 'skill level' of the average gw2 player is abysmally low. Go look at the average skill of an FF, WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar (when it was alive), PSO2, BDO, ESO and other MMOs. Now compare them to gw2. The gap is so incredibly large it is almost a -shock- to most players that try and play this game. Our high-tier content would be average content in any other MMO.

You can cater to average skilled player all you want, but when there's those few that want to do more and find nothing, then that's not a sustainable model anymore. That's not long-term.

Id say 7 years is pretty long term though. Sure its not WOW levels, but WOW was in a pretty unique spot. Regardless, You know why i play this game? its not as intensive in nearly any kind of situation as those games you listed, thankfully so. And despite that im probably one of the higher end average players this game has(Do raids sometimes usually on the lower end of DPS but at least i get by enough to be taken without issues, t4 fractals are fun but i wont do CM at all.)

If the players in this game are ever going to learn to be better, there needs to be a slow, almost painfully slow increase in difficulty.

[MaLong.2079]

"Just adjust to the difficulty."

Or even better; adjust the difficulty.

Difficulty should be adjustable to preference. Games should be played for fun. Different people have different ideas about what is fun and what is not.

Live and let live I say.

[Dreams.3128]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Noone says anything about catering towards the lower end players.It's the average skill level that should be cared for most.

The 'skill level' of the average gw2 player is abysmally low. Go look at the average skill of an FF, WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar (when it was alive), PSO2, BDO, ESO and other MMOs. Now compare them to gw2. The gap is so incredibly large it is almost a -shock- to most players that try and play this game. Our high-tier content would be average content in any other MMO.

You can cater to average skilled player all you want, but when there's those few that want to do more and find nothing, then that's not a sustainable model anymore. That's not long-term.

Id say 7 years is pretty long term though. Sure its not WOW levels, but WOW was in a pretty unique spot. Regardless, You know why i play this game? its not as intensive in nearly any kind of situation as those games you listed, thankfully so. And despite that im probably one of the higher end average players this game has(Do raids sometimes usually on the lower end of DPS but at least i get by enough to be taken without issues, t4 fractals are fun but i wont do CM at all.)

If the players in this game are ever going to learn to be better, there needs to be a slow, almost painfully slow increase in difficulty.

Then at that point the game would already be kissing its main base goodbye. The game shot itself in the foot twice with the whole 'play how you want' agenda and again when they gutted the trifecta of heal, dps, tank. Yes, seven years is long, but WoW has not been the only one that has lasted longer than gw2. Both PSO2 and SWTOR started around the same time, and have lasted just as long with both rising difficulty and keeping the usual formula without issues.

Its not just WoW, many MMOs have proven this formula, this demand on player skill works. It reflects from their community, the social skills they have, the activity, and plethora of other support that gw2 doesntt have in its system anymore. Again, it kinda -works- but it's not sustainable anymore. Not with how the community demands, bite, and overall acts bitter to the silence and irrational decisions that were made just to be a people pleaser.

[Fueki.4753]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:Its not just WoW, many MMOs have proven this formula, this demand on player skill works. It reflects from their community, the social skills they have, the activity, and plethora of other support that gw2 doesntt have in its system anymore. Again, it kinda -works- but it's not sustainable anymore. Not with how the community demands, bite, and overall acts bitter to the silence and irrational decisions that were made just to be a people pleaser.

Did you ever play recent LFR in WoW?Those people, despite WoW technically being the easier game, has the same player average skill in LFR as GW2 does.At least that's the case for Europeans. I doubt U.S.A. players have a higher average though.

[zealex.9410]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:Its not just WoW, many MMOs have proven this formula, this demand on player skill works. It reflects from their community, the social skills they have, the activity, and plethora of other support that gw2 doesntt have in its system anymore. Again, it kinda -works- but it's not sustainable anymore. Not with how the community demands, bite, and overall acts bitter to the silence and irrational decisions that were made just to be a people pleaser.

despite WoW technically being the easier game

We're talking about lfr wow here or wow in general because that statement is far from true.

[Fueki.4753]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:Its not just WoW, many MMOs have proven this formula, this demand on player skill works. It reflects from their community, the social skills they have, the activity, and plethora of other support that gw2 doesntt have in its system anymore. Again, it kinda -works- but it's not sustainable anymore. Not with how the community demands, bite, and overall acts bitter to the silence and irrational decisions that were made just to be a people pleaser.

despite WoW technically being the easier game

We're talking about lfr wow here or wow in general because that statement is far from true.Mechanically-wise, WoW is easier.For example, WoW has no active dodge function and not much variety how you can build your character.You choose your main spec and it has only one given role.Having the Holy Trinity also makes the game easier in my opinion.

[zealex.9410]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:Its not just WoW, many MMOs have proven this formula, this demand on player skill works. It reflects from their community, the social skills they have, the activity, and plethora of other support that gw2 doesntt have in its system anymore. Again, it kinda -works- but it's not sustainable anymore. Not with how the community demands, bite, and overall acts bitter to the silence and irrational decisions that were made just to be a people pleaser.

despite WoW technically being the easier game

We're talking about lfr wow here or wow in general because that statement is far from true.Mechanically-wise, WoW is easier.For example, WoW has no active dodge function and not much variety how you can build your character.You choose your main spec and it has only one given role.Having the Holy Trinity also makes the game easier in my opinion.

The game has a mutitude of mechanics and utikities in place of dodge tho, where i simple dodge makes all your problems go away in gw2 in wow you gotta countwr stuff by learning your class and the enemies or lerning the mechanics of a fight and right positioning.

Also tanking and healing are much more deep and nuanced in wow.

[Jimbru.6014]

Never say something is too easy either. Anet has a history of "fixing" that. People complained back in the day that the original game was too easy. After enough complaining, Anet said, "OK, you asked for it," and kicked our butts with HoT. People complained some of the early LS episodes were too short, so we got the abominations of LS4 and Grothmar requiring achievements to be repeated a hundred effin' times for credit. Be careful what you wish for, because Anet will give it to you.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@"Jimbru.6014" said:Never say something is too easy either. Anet has a history of "fixing" that. People complained back in the day that the original game was too easy. After enough complaining, Anet said, "OK, you asked for it," and kicked our butts with HoT. People complained some of the early LS episodes were too short, so we got the abominations of LS4 and Grothmar requiring achievements to be repeated a hundred effin' times for credit. Be careful what you wish for, because Anet will give it to you.

I loved the original hot tho ?

[Xelqypla.6817]

GW2 doesn't have the popularity to demand their players "adjust." They're more likely to just play a different game.

WoW is not more difficult than GW2. If WoW content is too hard for you, just wait - they'll nerf it while making better gear easier to get in the next patch.

[DaFishBob.6518]

I have anecdotal evidence that people playing this game just don't want deal with any setbacks. Went in to do a dungeon path for daily last night, as soon as a person died, they left. No patience with learning and giving it another try, must have went through about 10 people and got it done in spite of all the quitters. It wasn't even that hard, they just left without a word or complaint.

[Hashberry.4510]

The game has trained many players to always focus on the damn gold per hour metric. So if anything takes too long, players bail and move on to the next thing on the list. I enjoy HoT level difficulty, but small groups can be frustrating as folks won't spend a lot of time at it.

The visual mess has also made it hard for players to pick up on what is happening around them.

[Fueki.4753]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I have anecdotal evidence that people playing this game just don't want deal with any setbacks. Went in to do a dungeon path for daily last night, as soon as a person died, they left. No patience with learning and giving it another try, must have went through about 10 people and got it done in spite of all the quitters. It wasn't even that hard, they just left without a word or complaint.

Were the leaving people left behind by the rest of the group, rushing to quickly get it done?If so, I'd blame the rushing people, not the dying ones.

[Darkwolf.6837]

@"Arden.7480" said:Just adjust to the difficulty.

For the MMORPG GW2 has the best combat system and that should be shown with the creature fight design.

GW2 began to storm with flashy effects that make more harm than the bosses themselves, and now Boneskinner is pretty all about mechanics whicb reminds me of old, good times in which you had to use your mind to get the mechanics.

Instanced content should be all about different tactics, different approach, abundance of mechanics.

If you look at the WoW's Raid/Dungeon tabs which show all the bosses, you can also see so many mechanics to learn, so many things to know, and it's simply fun, especially on the higher level of difficulty.

It's cool, because there is fun in tactics as well, I mean that what makes instanced content unforgettable.

I could see that, after such a long time yesterday, when the Boneskinner was actually challenging, because it has tactics that you have to learn to notice, and all you must do is to adjust to them.

You really would have saved yourself and everyone reading your post time by just straight out saying "git gud"...

You can wrap that mentality is as many wishy-washy phrases like "use your mind to get the mechanics," "tactics that you have to learn to notice," and " all you must do is to adjust to them," but it all boils down to the same thing.

[Rasimir.6239]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:I have anecdotal evidence that people playing this game just don't want deal with any setbacks. Went in to do a dungeon path for daily last night, as soon as a person died, they left. No patience with learning and giving it another try, must have went through about 10 people and got it done in spite of all the quitters. It wasn't even that hard, they just left without a word or complaint.

Were the leaving people left behind by the rest of the group, rushing to quickly get it done?If so, I'd blame the rushing people, not the dying ones.Communication is key here. If I jump into a dungeon lfg and see everybody take off without a word, I assume they know what they're doing and take off, too. If I see somebody lagging behind or otherwise giving a clue of not knowing what's up, I ask if anybody's inexperienced and/or would like explanations. If somebody comes in and says they'd like to take it slow, I take it slow.

If they just come in, don't say a word, then drop the party on the first sign of things not going smooth, it is their own problem, no matter if they're the one lagging behind/getting downed or the one running off without a care for the rest of the party. People in this game don't usually bite, at least most. If you don't communicate, you have nobody to blame but yourself.