Never say something is too hard,

[Rauderi.8706]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:At a certain point, you have to make the content for the players.

Pivotal in software/game design. You can design around your intent all you want, but eventually, you need to design for your users and their behavior, or you're going to lose them for someone who does.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Arden.7480 said:Just adjust to the difficulty.Unless you count 'not doing the difficult content' as adjusting to it, some people simply can't adjust to every difficulty.Many people simply aren't good enough and don't have enough talent make up the missing expertise.

Usually you make up for the lack of talent with practice.But that turns what was supposed to be an entertainment into work. Not everyone finds hard work to be entertaining. Especially not after they've already had too much of it during the day.

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Noone says anything about catering towards the lower end players.It's the average skill level that should be cared for most.

The 'skill level' of the average gw2 player is abysmally low. Go look at the average skill of an FF, WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar (when it was alive), PSO2, BDO, ESO and other MMOs. Now compare them to gw2. The gap is so incredibly large it is almost a -shock- to most players that try and play this game. Our high-tier content would be average content in any other MMO.That's not a result of skill difference between the players of those games. That's a direct result of the GW2 combat/skill system which multiplies even small skill differences between players. Simply put, the same skill difference in FF XIV will have a much smaller impact on the effectiveness of the player than it would have in GW2. That's, in fact, one of the core issues that lie behind most of the problems tied to GW2 difficulty levels. Unfortunately, that's not an issue that would be easy to fix (or even possible to fix at this point in time).

Whats entertaining and fun is heavily subjective and that applies to every game. Ff14 also has a bunch of content one might consider a chore or work while someone else might enjoy that kind of stuff.

[Game of Bones.8975]

@Fueki.4753 said:

Unless you count 'not doing the difficult content' as adjusting to it, some people simply can't adjust to every difficulty.Many people simply aren't good enough and don't have enough talent make up the missing expertise.

I fit into that category of people not good at much of the content within GW2.

I struggle on many of the JPs which require timed-jumps or pixel-specific landing. I don't even try PvP; too many people have the optimal builds and skill rotation combos for me to compete against.

While I wish I were a better player, I'm good enough for me and still learning.

[Dante.1763]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

strikes are going to fail too, the average player isnt interested in that kind of contentI don't know about strikes failing, but I do know that the small group of casual with whom I play aren't interested in them at all.

Thats the failure. They are made to attract the casual player. Casual players arent doing them, cause casual players arent interested in the content.

[Fueki.4753]

@Dante.1763 said:They are made to attract the casual player.They weren't meant for all casuals.They were meant for the minority among the casuals that'd like to step up their game and learn how to do organized group content of higher difficulty (with the end goal of raiding).

[Dante.1763]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Dante.1763 said:They are made to attract the casual player.They weren't meant for all casuals.They were meant for the minority among the casuals that'd like to step up their game and learn how to do organized group content of higher difficulty (with the end goal of raiding).

Doesnt change my post, im one of those that would love to get into raids again(done them before) was hoping to find a group learning through SMs, but again, its not attracting that playerbase. I wont even do SMs now. They have no rewards worth trying for, and the punishment of taking longer to do them is annoying AF.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:All these quotes back up the assertion that this was about rewards and activities. Not about bringing whatever build you wanted in whatever armor and being effective.It's too bad that most of the dev communication from that time is gone, as it happened in multitude of posts split between several forums and webpages that no longer exist (and haven't existed for a very long time). I do remember, though one example that was given about how to prepare for difficult content.

They did mention that some of the "difficult" content (dungeon exploration paths) might require you to adjust your playing style within the prty to fit the group (and specific dungeon) better. They did also say, though, that it was just as easy as adjusting some skills and traits on the class you are already playing on, as every class is made to be equally versatile. The specific example given was of a party of

five thieves

.

No mention of gear changing for the role/content was ever made - the gear was supposed to fit your personal style, and for the actual adjustments, skills and traits should have been enough. With the class itself being mostly irrelevant for this, seeing as any class was supposed to be able to fit any required role.

Not that the actual game ever supported this, though.

So on one side we have dev quotes that back up a certain interpretation of the phrase and it's use within the "manifesto".On the other we have people who can't provide a single quote to back up a rather extraordinary claim and point to evidence that somehow no longer exists.Ok then...

The irony is that all the story and open world content in this game probably could be beaten by a warrior in Giver's armor or a Celestial thief. From Big Nosed Ted to Hearts and Minds, from map completing core to going 100% on Domain of Vabbi, I am relatively sure a core Ranger in yellow Cleric's gear could manage just fine.Wooden Potatoes proved last year that the core story can be beaten without pressing a single skill... and if that indeed is the meaning of the phrase within this context, the game has absolutely achieved it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Dante.1763 said:They are made to attract the casual player.They weren't meant for all casuals.They were meant for the minority among the casuals that'd like to step up their game and learn how to do organized group content of higher difficulty (with the end goal of raiding).That minority either did it long ago, or are not playing anymore.

Besides, designing a certain content for a small group of players for an express purpose of having them to move to a different content that, by that point, has been already abandoned seems to be an exercise in futility.

[joneirikb.7506]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Dante.1763 said:They are made to attract the casual player.They weren't meant for all casuals.They were meant for the minority among the casuals that'd like to step up their game and learn how to do organized group content of higher difficulty (with the end goal of raiding).That minority either did it long ago, or are not playing anymore.

Besides, designing a certain content for a small group of players for an express purpose of having them to move to a different content that, by that point, has been already abandoned seems to be an exercise in futility.

Personally think the playerbase is varied enough that there probably are some that enjoys SM, but at the same time we also have a vocal part of the fanbase that resistant to trying anything they don't feel comfortable with (be that core tyria only, only wvw, or world bosses that they already know inside out etc). I think the largest problem for ANet in this is that the player base is so extremely varied, and so easily fall into extremes, at least the vocal part. Which would make it very difficult to make something that all of them would agree about.

In that regard, I think ANet probably would be better of making content after what the quiet mass of players that just plays the game does, and ignore all the vocal minorities. But that would mean they where designing blindly to some degree.

[maddoctor.2738]

@joneirikb.7506 said:Personally think the playerbase is varied enough that there probably are some that enjoys SM, but at the same time we also have a vocal part of the fanbase that resistant to trying anything they don't feel comfortable with (be that core tyria only, only wvw, or world bosses that they already know inside out etc)

If someone actually knew world bosses inside out, they would easily try Strike Missions but the thing is, most players fighting world bosses do not know the mechanics of them. That's why you see so many getting killed at an easy encounter like Golem MKII, they can't even avoid the simple electrified floor. And don't get me started with even simpler things like destroying the portals at the Shadow Behemoth. No, the type of player that knows how to do the world bosses would easily move on to Strike Missions (Boneskinner excluded probably) but unfortunately they don't, they are comfortable with that type of content because they have zero personal responsibility, they let others take care of all important parts of the fight and they just earn the same rewards. Even while being dead and refusing to waypoint for 90% of the fight.

In instanced content, be it story, strike missions, dungeons, fractals and Raids, your personal responsibility is increased by a whole lot and you can longer reliably let others do everything while you semi-afk. It is possible of course, but not as easy as in the open world where it's an integral part of the game.

[battledrone.8315]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:All these quotes back up the assertion that this was about rewards and activities. Not about bringing whatever build you wanted in whatever armor and being effective.It's too bad that most of the dev communication from that time is gone, as it happened in multitude of posts split between several forums and webpages that no longer exist (and haven't existed for a very long time). I do remember, though one example that was given about how to prepare for difficult content.

They did mention that some of the "difficult" content (dungeon exploration paths) might require you to adjust your playing style within the prty to fit the group (and specific dungeon) better. They did also say, though, that it was just as easy as adjusting some skills and traits on the class you are already playing on, as every class is made to be equally versatile. The specific example given was of a party of

five thieves

.

No mention of gear changing for the role/content was ever made - the gear was supposed to fit your personal style, and for the actual adjustments, skills and traits should have been enough. With the class itself being mostly irrelevant for this, seeing as any class was supposed to be able to fit any required role.

Not that the actual game ever supported this, though.

So on one side we have dev quotes that back up a certain interpretation of the phrase and it's use within the "manifesto".On the other we have people who can't provide a single quote to back up a rather extraordinary claim and point to evidence that somehow no longer exists.Ok then...

The irony is that all the story and open world content in this game probably

could

be beaten by a warrior in Giver's armor or a Celestial thief. From Big Nosed Ted to Hearts and Minds, from map completing core to going 100% on Domain of Vabbi, I am relatively sure a core Ranger in yellow Cleric's gear could manage just fine.Wooden Potatoes proved last year that the core story can be beaten without pressing a single skill... and if that indeed is the meaning of the phrase within this context, the game has absolutely achieved it.

some guy was trying to walk over antarctica NUDE!!! even if he made it(not sure), that wouldnt mean, that you could set up a tourist industry on the samepremises. even if WP could do it, doesnt mean that i could do the same."doable" isnt good enough, it has to fun enough, that people will PAY for the pleasure

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:That was very close to the dungeon reveal the've had (and from what i remember, it was part of that dungeon reveal talks). It had to be quite close to that beta, because part of that talks included mentioning running the dungeon internally (with the beforementioned 5 thieves party, among other things). The stat system already existed then (even if it was going through small changes and adjustments, when they were moving stats and their effects around)

Notice also, that even after the things you mentioned, they never actually ever spoke anything different. Not until raids, anyway.

I did acknowledge, that the game never actually lived up to the ideas presented then, but it sheds some light on what they were originally thinking when they were talking about "this game's equivalent of raids" and "for the most dedicated of players".

The "5 thieves" quote is here:https://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-dungeons-preview/

Skill > gear. They wanted every profession to be able to finish all content.

Every day, according to Johanson, Guild Wars 2's QA team takes on a dungeon with a different group composition. “We'll play them with five thieves, and we'll play them with five engineers, and then we'll play them with three thieves and two rangers. We bounce the group composition around constantly. What we found, over and over again, is that it's the skill of the players, and the professions make almost no difference. It's how good you are playing that profession.”

This quote is very interesting considering this discussion and about player self-improvement.

“Some people will say 'this is just way too hard for me'”, Johanson says, “and we have 95% of the game available for them. What we're trying to do is create encounters in the sense that these are things where you can beat it, but when you lose you have a sense of 'I didn't play well enough to overcome this, I want to come back and play better.'”

So the OP is absolutely right.

Never say something is too hard, just adjust to the difficulty.

That's how the game was advertised and promoted since day one. Anyone who disagrees with that probably bought the wrong game.

edit: as for the gear stats, in all dungeon previews they were using low level characters meaning they had access to single attribute or dual attribute gear and many stats din't exist (ferocity, expertise, concentration) on single and dual stat gear. Berserker gear doesn't exist on one and two attribute sets and it was the best set on release due to how it combined 3 stats to increase damage output. Until players found that Berserker does too much damage compared to anything else dungeons were considered hard, and then we got to the zerker meta that lasted until Heart of Thorns.

[Vision.7265]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The problem with rising to the challenge is convincing everyone else to do the same. This is the same problem with serpent's ire: It is very doable, but everyone just complains and quits because it is too hard. At a certain point, you have to make the content for the players.

I would like to add: make the content toward the paying players. Hard or Easy. Or both. Thank you.

[Dante.1508]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Dante.1508 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Dante.1508 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:People still don't understand that was the whole point of the "play how you want" mantra, ArenaNet wanted people to be able to do any content with any character and any build and be successful at it, that was the philosophy, the execution in that was the failing.That wasn't the point of the "play how you want" thing at all.It comes from this

article

And it was a statement about not making players jump through hoops in game modes they dont enjoy to achieve best in slot rewards. It was about offering the player choice in how rewards are earned. That if there are 4 activities for a reward, for example you only have to do two and can choose the two you like.You've misinterpreted and misrepresented this message pretty heavily.Why?

I should probably clarify, that was the

original

intent behind the mantra, it somehow got changed between when they first thought of it and what it ended up being announced as...they should've never changed it and just left it as it was, which is the way I said it(I keep forgetting it was changed somewhere along the way),No developer quote backs up your interpretation. Not a single one.

Have you watched the release Videos and early direction GW2 started in, it very much tells that.

Watched them just today before responding to this thread. It does not say that at all.

Then they've either been changed or removed since then because at release it very much said the above.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.

Somewhere along the lines this got forgotten, and i believe it was when Fractals was added..

Here is a very good source and as you can see very much a lot has been removed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2okqd2/what_is_the_origin_of_play_how_i_want_in_gw2/

So yes their original direction has very much been deleted.. The game is a pale shadow of what it was at release.

All these quotes back up the assertion that this was about rewards and activities. Not about bringing whatever build you wanted in whatever armor and being effective.

Half of the links on that reddit have been conveniently removed by Anet...

[maddoctor.2738]

@Dante.1508 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:All these quotes back up the assertion that this was about rewards and activities. Not about bringing whatever build you wanted in whatever armor and being effective.

Half of the links on that reddit have been conveniently removed by Anet...

@"Zaklex.6308" interpretation of "play how you want" is completely false.

I posted a link with developer comments on the subject. You can find the link in this post (slightly above this one):https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1116922/#Comment_1116922

Many interpret things as they want to fit their agenda. But the developers never said you can play all content with whatever build you want, they said you'll be able to play all content with any profession you want (5 thieves or 5 engineers), there is a HUGE difference. Furthermore, they clearly stated that success or failure would depend on how well you played said profession as player skill is the dominant factor. Meaning, a player that isn't very good at playing an Elementalist would need a more optimized build to succeed than a player that is better at it and can use a sub-optimal one just fine.

If you are good enough you can finish all content using any build or gear combination, that's the main goal of the game, but what you and others are missing is the "good enough" part. And this goal is accomplished, we've seen solo naked runs in Arah, duo runs using green gear in Raids and so on, meaning skill > gear in this game, so what the developers intended for as the main goal of the game, is actually true. But players are missing the personal skill part of the equation and draw false conclusions. It's working as advertised