Can we also nerf Protection and Weakness?

[Lonecap.4105]

Make Protection give -20% incoming damage down from -33% (make it so it affects condition damage too). Make Weakness so it doesn't negate crit anymore, but simply applies a -33% damage reduction which always works (can keep the reduction on endurance regen).

Even in the current power level we have, some builds are absurdly tanky. There are going to be problems most assuredly if these effects aren't brought in line too.

[mortrialus.3062]

They already cut nearly every source of protection by 50% in duration and a ton of weakness sources by the same.

[Lonecap.4105]

@mortrialus.3062 said:They already cut nearly every source of protection by 50% in duration and a ton of weakness sources by the same.

Even so, the values themselves are inflated and aren't really in line with the upcoming balance patch, their effects need to be looked at in accordance with the changes to damage. I propose even restoring or partially restoring the original durations, and then nerfing the effectiveness in the way I suggested.

It will be a small change to help prevent the meta from getting too focused on bunker or conditions.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

nah, they're both too crucial. nerf durations but that's all.

both boon and condi conversion tables really need to get looked at tho.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:nah, they're both too crucial. nerf durations but that's all.

both boon and condi conversion tables really need to get looked at tho.

100% this

[Genesis.5169]

No, theres plenty of boon removal and condition cleanse in the game.Its no ones fault but your that they aren't on your bar. You have skills that are catered for pvp used them stop trying to take your pve build in to pvp expecting the same kinda performance.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

With the already proposed duration reductions their fine.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Nah. with the coming patch they'll already be super situational. There's no need for a blanket nerf to those.

[Buran.3796]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:With the already proposed duration reductions their fine.

Didn't check all the classes, but for Renegade under Kalla legend you will be able to have protection 100% of the swap. Bunker age is coming...

[Quadox.7834]

Weakness it definitely very strong, just like chill it is basically two condis in one.

[SeikeNz.3526]

if they nerf prot and weakness the powercreep will go back to what was before

[Axl.8924]

This would probably really hurt necro a lot. I would wait i were you.

[ArthurDent.9538]

They are both damage multipliers. By nerfing damage, they don't suddenly become more powerful because the amount of damage they reduce also becomes proportionately smaller.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:With the already proposed duration reductions their fine.

Didn't check all the classes, but for Renegade under Kalla legend you will be able to have protection 100% of the swap. Bunker age is coming...

It would be best to nerf kallas access to protection if that were true rather than making it unviable for other specs who don't have that issue just to reign in a outlier

[ZDragon.3046]

For weakness that would be a direct buff because right now weakness is based on rngthere is a 50% chance of it working super effectively and a 50% chance of it not reducing damage at all.Your idea would make it more stable which in my opinion would be a direct buff to it.

Im all for less rng in the game tbh

Cant say i agree much with protection nerfs though.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:With the already proposed duration reductions their fine.

Didn't check all the classes, but for Renegade under Kalla legend you will be able to have protection 100% of the swap. Bunker age is coming...

Except there's this thing called energy and profession mechanic. Renegade is greatly desired for two things - the 10 man alacrity when you slot Righteous Rebel trait and the the ult with amazing lifesteal. None of them are cheap energy wise. And with sole exception of healing (Breakrazor's Bastion) the rest of Kalla's merry bunch also is not spammable due to energy cost.

More over you if you stay on Kalla 24/7 you will really suffer in terms of energy and damage, as legend swap is what insta resets your energy to 50. Wanna get 50 energy without a legend swap as renegade? Prepare yourself for 10s of doing absolutely nothing save auto attack chain...

Not to mention that while Kalla's warband is a versatile bunch, it's not the top dps solution. Pretty sure Shiro for Power and Mallyx for condi are the damage top dogs, and if you refuse to swap to them...well you're just adding insult to injury in terms of personal dps and energy management.

[Buran.3796]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Not to mention that while Kalla's warband is a versatile bunch, it's not the top dps solution. Pretty sure Shiro for Power and Mallyx for condi are the damage top dogs, and if you refuse to swap to them...well you're just adding insult to injury in terms of personal dps and energy management.

Not worried about damage; I'm playing the 20th season with a Herald (Glint + Mallyx) condition bunker, but also saw sucessful players running core Jalis + Mallyx and also Renegade Jalis + Kalla and all of them can tank for a while. Damage varies from decent to low, but doesn't matter if you can dispute a control point enough to force the other team to focus two players on you. With the average nerfs in damage and cc while keeping the same base HP x class the next meta will be full of bunkers and tanky support builds...

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Except they're also nerfing healing, which shuts down that possibility. If damage reduction is accompanied by healing effectiveness reduction, then what you get is not a bunker meta, but something similar to boosting everyone's vitality. Enemies will face harder time bursting you down due to larger effective health pool, but your ability to restore said health will be proportionally nerfed along with damage ergo not creating a happy bunker meta.

[Zenix.6198]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:They are both damage multipliers. By nerfing damage, they don't suddenly become more powerful because the amount of damage they reduce also becomes proportionately smaller.

The first comment in the entire thread that actually makes sense.

[Buran.3796]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Except they're also nerfing healing, which shuts down that possibility. If damage reduction is accompanied by healing effectiveness reduction, then what you get is not a bunker meta, but something similar to boosting everyone's vitality. Enemies will face harder time bursting you down due to larger effective health pool, but your ability to restore said health will be proportionally nerfed along with damage ergo not creating a happy bunker meta.

Nerfs in healing are around 25% plus nerfs in healing coeficients (which has low impact if the sustain from your tank build wasn't based in healing power at all); meanwhile nerfs in damage are ~33% overall + nerfs in boon stacks and duration (migth, fury...), condition stacks and duration... and strong cc skills now deal 0 damage, which means you need more skills to deal less damage in a landscape of longer cooldowns.

One example: previously a Warrior could proc quickness (as with Frenzy) and do a Bull's Charge followed by Hundred Blades and Whirlwind Attack in 2.75 seconds to quick finsih a target (the BR knockdown was 3 seconds, so if the impacted target lacked a stunbreak or was lazy could be toasted in barely more than a couple of seconds). Now Bull's Charge does 0 damage, HB lost 35% of its damage and WA lost 50%. So the target will suffer less than half of the damage and Frenzy cooldown was increased from 40 to 45 seconds, which means les chances x minute to land that particular combo (to get less than half of the same reward). Works the same more or less with every class, and I don't see the changes in the patch having the same effect in sustain and healing. Another funny example: in order to make Revenant's staff #5 easier to see and make it a worse tool for disengage now Surge of the Mist has a 0.5 second warm up... but increases the total evade time to 1.5 seconds. So if you play a bursty Rev for +1 now you'll have harder times disengaging, but if you're running a bunker build you'll love the buff to the sustain that skill will provide...

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@Buran.3796 said:

Nerfs in healing are around 25% plus nerfs in healing coeficients (which has low impact if the sustain from your tank build wasn't based in healing power at all); meanwhile nerfs in damage are ~33% overall + nerfs in boon stacks and duration (migth, fury...), condition stacks and duration... and strong cc skills now deal 0 damage, which means you need more skills to deal less damage in a landscape of longer cooldowns.

One example: previously a Warrior could proc quickness (as with Frenzy) and do a Bull's Charge followed by Hundred Blades and Whirlwind Attack in 2.75 seconds to quick finsih a target (the BR knockdown was 3 seconds, so if the impacted target lacked a stunbreak or was lazy could be toasted in barely more than a couple of seconds). Now Bull's Charge does 0 damage, HB lost 35% of its damage and WA lost 50%. So the target will suffer less than half of the damage and Frenzy cooldown was increased from 40 to 45 seconds, which means les chances x minute to land that particular combo (to get less than half of the same reward). Works the same more or less with every class, and I don't see the changes in the patch having the same effect in sustain and healing. Another funny example: in order to make Revenant's staff #5 easier to see and make it a worse tool for disengage now Surge of the Mist has a 0.5 second warm up... but increases the total evade time to 1.5 seconds. So if you play a bursty Rev for +1 now you'll have harder times disengaging, but if you're running a bunker build you'll love the buff to the sustain that skill will provide...

Well maybe that warr burst example is one of prime reasons those changes are taking place in the first place. As a core necro spvp player I know all too well what's it like to play a class of attrition in this burst/damage happy meta..

That being said necros won' t be the biggest winners here. Our sustain is fair - we facetank and lifesteal, and new patch nerfs our stab access and removes two expertise amulets with some defense on them (Deadshot and Wanderer). Necro in spvp is mostly screwed by the fact he relies on defensive stats far more then any other profession and tank stats are being rather restricted in that mode.

The biggest winners will be professions with tons of no-damage taken skills that have only short windows of opportunity for taking damage and being shut down if played right. Thieves, spellbreakers, engies and likely eles are gonna have a field day when this hits.

[witcher.3197]

As long as the durations and accessibility is lowered, I think the high values should stay.

Protection should be something with a short duration you use right before a burst to mitigate a significant chunk of damage, as reward for having good timing. 20% would work better as a consistent long duration mitigation, which they are moving away from.