When are we going to have the thief class actually fixed? (with fun videos)

[Zoser.7245]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:+1NCsoft's Earnings Report, 'I was about ready to start playing again until I saw this'

I'm sorry. I understand your frustration. I've experimented/suffered it too. Is specially frustrating when you have to leave the respawn to join your guild/squad or zerg. It doesn't matter if you are a Mesmer, SB, Scraper you are hunted anyways. The only thing you can do is wait to your guild/squad, zerg or get together enough players to go together and survive until reach the structures unless you have upgrades ones with tps or a emergengy tp is used. If you are skilled enough, you sometimes can leave the area, i often can do that, but is more because they simply notice it and immediately turn against to a more easy target instead of worry about you. Of course, if they really want to focus you, you'll be hunted anyways unless you are another thief, obviously, and leave the area in perma-stealth easily. Friendly players can also combo themeselves to hide you in stealth and let you leave the area. Well, if you are not listened running near them and they are able to reveal you and force you to fight.

I've to recognize here that i've done it too. If you can't beat the devils join them and have fun doing the same with the enemy server. We have farmed, like those in the video, the respawn points and other places for hours not letting people even leave and have fun playing. Up to the point of sit there without even the use of stealth and people only watching us unable to do nothing with a defeated feeling until their zerg/squad rescue them and then killing any one in the tail or around the zerg that was a bit relegated/separated. In my server there is even a dedicated guild of thiefs with those and other purposes so i know well all that matter. We obviosly, like seems in the video, were coordinated with audio, we used teamspeak and today discord. And it still happen even today. Of course, it has its purpose from a tactic point of view, not let players joing their squads or zergs so they become smaller and more easy to defeat and also to farm "bags". But a lot of times is done only for fun purposes and F**K the enemy, they also do it us too so, why not? Literally. We, in fact, call them "bags". Watch that, more bags are upcoming!!!! Woohoo!!!

That is. For that reason it has been explained here and i did it before in another thread why Wards should be added to the game if you want to maintain the thief mechanic untouched. Well, we will see if, at some point , the developers decide to do something on the matter.

[LetoII.3782]

Was that supposed to be good ranger play?You're representing THAT as the best that can be done vs. a deadeye?

Did you just attack empty space two times in three falls and submit it as proof of anything but your own lack?

[DeceiverX.8361]

@LetoII.3782 said:Was that supposed to be good ranger play?You're representing THAT as the best that can be done vs. a deadeye?

Did you just attack empty space two times in three falls and submit it as proof of anything but your own lack?

What's even more astounding is he's on multiple occasions been upvoted heavily on the ranger subsection, notably when soulbeast was OP while defending it. Notably when I've commented about skilled play or the lack thereof. Not only is it pretty obvious he has almost no basis of argument, but that a LOT of people seem to as well.

[LetoII.3782]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

What's even more astounding is he's on multiple occasions been upvoted heavily on the ranger subsection,

Yes, hence my rather heated response.

All that on the forums.... And then this?

[Shroud.2307]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Was that supposed to be good ranger play?You're representing THAT as the best that can be done vs. a deadeye?

Did you just attack empty space two times in three falls and submit it as proof of anything but your own lack?

What's even more astounding is he's on multiple occasions been upvoted heavily on the ranger subsection, notably when soulbeast was OP while defending it. Notably when I've commented about skilled play or the lack thereof. Not only is it pretty obvious he has almost no basis of argument, but that a LOT of people seem to as well.

The Ranger sub is the worst victim echo chamber on this forum. I doubt if anyone that posts there regularly has ever suggested something might be over performing or in need of adjustment. I used to main Ranger some time ago and I learned to avoid that sub because it never seems to have anything constructive to discuss outside of occasional build threads.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Isn't every profession subforum like that? I remember I stopped reading the guardian one because of the numerous complaints that it gets ignored by Anet (btw, that's a good thing). There was nonstop incessant whining about how guardian should be a real healer and be better than tempest and druids and crap. And now we have the nonsense that is minstrel FB....

Well ok, I think the warrior one has some actual information.

[Shroud.2307]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Isn't every profession subforum like that? I remember I stopped reading the guardian one because of the numerous complaints that it gets ignored by Anet (btw, that's a good thing). There was nonstop incessant whining about how guardian should be a real healer and be better than tempest and druids and kitten. And now we have the nonsense that is minstrel FB....

Well ok, I think the warrior one has some actual information.

To be fair, I only ever visit the Necromancer, Engineer, Ranger, Revenant and Warrior subs on a regular/semi-regular basis ( because those are the classes I play ). But yeah in general every sub is pretty whiny and self centered. I find the Necro sub to be the most well behaved, but it's also the one that likes to suggest it's underpowered rather than saying it outright. Like a passive aggressive form of whining, lol.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"LetoII.3782" said:Was that supposed to be good ranger play?You're representing THAT as the best that can be done vs. a deadeye?

Did you just attack empty space two times in three falls and submit it as proof of anything but your own lack?

What's even more astounding is he's on multiple occasions been upvoted heavily on the ranger subsection, notably when soulbeast was OP while defending it. Notably when I've commented about skilled play or the lack thereof. Not only is it pretty obvious he has almost no basis of argument, but that a LOT of people seem to as well.

The Ranger sub is the worst victim echo chamber on this forum. I doubt if anyone that posts there regularly has ever suggested something might be over performing or in need of adjustment. I used to main Ranger some time ago and I learned to avoid that sub because it never seems to have anything constructive to discuss outside of occasional build threads.

Multiclass player here with 3.2k hrs on ranger.

Yes the ranger subforum is still exactly as you describe and I am one of the few who ever dared to challenge their vision of "balance" and specifically with two threads : one was about druid being OP at the times and another one later about Boonbeast, in both I was advocating for nerfs in sustain ( which eventually came as I predicted ) with that said...you're not less biased than ranger players by suggesting to nerf troll unguent from 8s to 6s, not only we're talking about a heal for second heal ( which can so be easily neutered by burst dmg ) but also it had its CD increased just days ago.

Other than main heal, a ranger hasn't got any source of heal burst like say a guardian or warrior or even revs , the class relies on a synergy of evades and couple sources of low regen, without those...ranger would be basically a free kill , I mean on core guard or some DH variant I can already give a run for their money to above average rangers, while massacring bad/below average ones.

I have always advocated for a closure of the official forum, the devs should rely more on in house testing and beta access to selected and trusted individuals

[Arheundel.6451]

@"anduriell.6280" said:It is very terrible game experience when you fight all the cheesy builds that class have.This short video is recorded yesterday, well after the famous balance patch. All done while totally invisible. Ah yes i forgot to dodge.. Right.

That thief was invisible the all time as i didn't see it although i spend almost a minute walking around that campament. That class has idiotic mobility as well as damage meme worthy (i wanted a video to prove the mobility of the deadeye):

But when it's not this there is the instant gank-i fail-teleport away.. Safest class to play in gw2, if your ganking fail just keep resetting the fight with the teleports.

When are we going to have a real balance for that class? Is it so the streamers don't complain publicly ? What is it?

Stop embarrassing yourself with these thread about soulbeast already and learn to adapt...the class is plenty strong and you have no room for complain when you have the tools to avoid the fight and run away, swallow your pride and lower your ego, do realize that not everything walking in wvw is there for you to prey on.

Happy ranger player here, just try to look outside your pewpew and run gimmick...and you'll see the tools to survive the encounter are there

[ilMasa.2546]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"ilMasa.2546" said:The problem here is kinda simple: there is no actual counterplay.Im not talking about the DMG i dont care if thieves can 5k or 10k you.Stealth is the problem.

Im sorry but when i see people talking about "

free pot shots to hit you from behind

" or "T

here were a bunch of spots to los

" i

call BS

.

In the first clip we couldnt even see the thief getting inside the camp and even if you were able to react

AT A GODLIKE SPEED

,u burned your CD/evade and guess what?! the thief will be still invisible.And if its not he will be right before u could target him.How much initiative x seconds?!My defensive cd are around 15 to 30 secs each.

Please post the full videos then, otherwise there is little to no context except skewing the viewpoint from what is shown - we need to see how the fights were from the beginning of the encounter. Since you say you were there, you are also outnumbering the thief, how many people were at camp? Again, would need to see video of full engagement to see how you guys were handling the thief to really get an idea, otherwise I can also just say this is also a situation that experience in fighting thieves is what was needed.

What?No no no no, i was not there m8.I dont know why you got that idea.you mean this "In the first clip we couldnt even see ".?

[DemonSeed.3528]

Ah my bad, I read it wrongly. I thought in that context you meant you were there lol.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Isn't every profession subforum like that? I remember I stopped reading the guardian one because of the numerous complaints that it gets ignored by Anet (btw, that's a good thing). There was nonstop incessant whining about how guardian should be a real healer and be better than tempest and druids and kitten. And now we have the nonsense that is minstrel FB....

Well ok, I think the warrior one has some actual information.

To be fair, I only ever visit the Necromancer, Engineer, Ranger, Revenant and Warrior subs on a regular/semi-regular basis ( because those are the classes I play ). But yeah in general every sub is pretty whiny and self centered. I find the Necro sub to be the most well behaved, but it's also the one that likes to

suggest

it's underpowered rather than saying it outright. Like a passive aggressive form of whining, lol.

Well, necros are unwanted in pve (good, but never good enough), are BIS in wvw zergs but struggle outside of them. I dunno about pvp, but I can see understand the complaints.

With only 450 hours on ranger I can't say much to criticize OP. My personal solution was just to get 20k+ health/dura runes and it stopped happening but that can't be the only way. First video the fight lasts from 0:03 to 0:04 which may be enough time to react but this is in hindsight, and I'd say the same for video 3. 2nd video I really didn't get the mauls and should have really used the block while retreating. Rest is slow reaction and needs work on tab. I mean not exactly the best play there but doesn't seem to be the base health stand still kind that most sbs I see are, lol. It'd be nice to show some footages of effective deadeye fighting. They rarely bother me anymore, but I play classes that generally counter it so I dunno. I know you can probably deal with DJ by just mapping look behind but then they hop all over the place and it is w/e

I'm generally pretty quick to bash like the times people post videos of trying to chase mounts using a double melee set but this is somewhat more murky.

With all that being said, certainly #notallthieves Losing to a DD or core (maybe except s/p) is 100% their fault.

[cobbah.3102]

Not going to happen , maybe they will put traps in Gem store you can buy , sounds like an Anet thing. pffft

[geist.4126]

I'd say first that it's not a problem that can be dumbed down to "stealth" because stealth is way weaker on engineer or ranger. The issue is the whole design of the thief class. Even after the nerf you have all three basic thief builds (core, dd, de) as viable options for playing wvw. And all of three of them work with power and condition builds (more or less).So the issue isn't stealth only, but primarily. What has to be changed is the access to stealth so you can't restealth in any situation and the easy access to dodges, evades and teleports. You have to gut thieves at all these points to bring it in line. You have to make thieves choose if their defense should be dodge/evade, teleport or stealth. It should be similar to necromancers that have to decide if they use their shroud for offensive pressure or defensive gameplay.You can't have a class that hits hard and has almost unlimited access to a toolkit like that.This means that thief needs a serious rework and most of the passive effects on skills have to go or have to use up way more initiative (or make initiative generation slower).

But we all know that will never happen and all we can do is run over dueling thieves with a zerg is the way to go.

[Svarty.8019]

@bluberblasen.9684 said:you had more than 10 chances to run away. ( video 2 )

Thief gets a bonus if you try running away. What are you SUPPOSED to do, Arenanet? Where's the tutorial for fighting against thief?

@Yasai.3549 said:Stealth right now has too much control over the entire gamestate.It strangles the players who are not using Stealth and forces them to play near Sentry or Towers.And since Sentry and Towers do not move, the Thief basically owns all parts of the maps except these small pockets.

^This.Next thing you know, we'll have small guilds saying they can't get action and that people just sit in towers all the time. It's an ecosystem.

[aspirine.6852]

I kinda agree with the OP, invis is the dumbest thing to add to a pvp oriented game anyway. And then they made deadeye on top of that :DGive either the stealth a cooldown, or that you cannot attack from stealth and you reveal yourself first and then attack.

Things I never see in mapchat.. "Well that was fun fighting that deadeye".....

[briggah.7910]

out played

[Qaju.2058]

Rifle DE main here,

You can try this:1) Lb#42) plink couple #1 while he recovers or wastes a stunbreak (mercy or RFI) or eats it like a big boy3) tap Sic Em so when he tries to dodge rolls you deny him gaining stealth from Silent Scope to fire off DJ4) LB#2 Rapid fire pew pew him away as he's revealed and helpless

Remember rifle#4 death's retreat doesn't have evade frames, just shadowsteps positions and the way it does still allows arrows to track and hit. Oh and it got nerfed on initiative cost. Can't spam 3 anymore at max ini, only 2 now. So he can't out range escape your longbow.

As a dual rifle SA/Tr DE aka perma stealth, I always carry more than dozen Target Painters (uses 10sups) on me at all times. Use and abuse them. DE Shadow Meld elite can't remove that mark. Learn how to stay calm and toss them on the fly. It take me 2s flat to open my bag, click on it then toss to where I want. Train yourself.Can use LB#4, soulbeasted smoke assault channeling or pet taunt to give you stress-free time to access bag and toss it.

Far too many soulbeasts have grown complacent and rely on soulbeast buff sic em RF burst combo opener. I don't blame them l, most often it's enough and it works.

But here's how that goes when it's vs me: durability rune proc kicks in giving me protection to allow me precious time to Mark interrupt Lb#2 RF or if he used LB#4 before #2, Mercy stun break to reset my Mark and interrupt again, immediately followed by my own burst until I see Signet of Stone trigger to which I then go Shadow meld or dodge to wait it out then do 2nd burst till he's downed. Now good soulbeasts don't rely on their bow alone but will swap to gs after stone signet to block, mail, smoke assault. All these giving them respite till swap is available again for another Lb4+2. Great/smart soulbeasts don't waste their sic em early on but surgically use it to deny tempo control to the DE.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

even if he did better against the de, a competent de can counter basically anything thrown at them. maybe that's just inherently hard to understand for some people.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@"aspirine.6852" said:I kinda agree with the OP, invis is the dumbest thing to add to a pvp oriented game anyway. And then they made deadeye on top of that :DGive either the stealth a cooldown, or that you cannot attack from stealth and you reveal yourself first and then attack.

Things I never see in mapchat.. "Well that was fun fighting that deadeye".....

I Actually said that last night in map chat. DE tapping bay over and over. Finally got him into a fight and beat him. (Permastealth DPS DE) hahahaha

[LetoII.3782]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:even if he did better against the de, a competent de can counter basically anything thrown at them. maybe that's just inherently hard to understand for some people.

They die just as easy as they kill.Learning how to obtain the initiative is hard for some people.

[UNOwen.7132]

I mean, coming from a Soulbeast, which in WvW currently has a ridiculously broken build that can facetank 3 players at once without even fighting back and usually requires 5 to even possibly be killed, thats kind of hilarious. Whats also hilarious is that if you just Longbow 4 + Rapid Fire, you just kill the thief. Still, permastealth is dumb, no disagreement there. In-combat stealth is fine though, if not underpowered. Soulbeast, if played properly, can effectively nullify in-combat stealth.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:even if he did better against the de, a competent de can counter basically anything thrown at them. maybe that's just inherently hard to understand for some people.

They die just as easy as they kill.Learning how to obtain the initiative is hard for some people.

lol. if you're a melee class good luck.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:even if he did better against the de, a competent de can counter basically anything thrown at them. maybe that's just inherently hard to understand for some people.

They die just as easy as they kill.Learning how to obtain the initiative is hard for some people.

lol. if you're a melee class good luck.

If youre a melee class, you fit into 2 categories. Either youre the tanky fighter who circumvents the weakness of having to be up close and personal by being extremely hard to kill, in which case DE is not a threat as their damage post-burst falls off hard, and their burst wont kill you. In that case you either use whatever dash you have to reach them and then cleave them through stealth, or just disengage in case you think its not worth it (the main example of this category is Warrior, and on flat ground a thief cannot catch up to a Warrior).

Or youre a bursty build yourself utilising rapid mobility to get ontop of the target and delete them. In which case DE is trivial to beat, theyre squishy and die in2 or 3 shots, and you have no problem closing the gap.