How best to change Retaliation

[Ovark.2514]

A boon that is both defensive, offensive, can only be removed with boon removal (unlike stab), can be applied at maximum effectiveness permanently (or nearly), and is incredibly punishing against builds with multi-hit attacks.

[Sigmoid.7082]

I reckon I will die before I see a poll on this forum that is unbiased.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:I reckon I will die before I see a poll on this forum that is unbiased.

I made a poll about polls. got a 3 day ban for some reason tho.

[Jobber.6348]

I don't even see the point of this.

On one hand we will have people who are so called "multi-hit attackers" going YEAAA NERF RETALIATION, WE KEEP GETTING KILLED BY CORRECTLY TIMED RETALIATION STACKING OMGGGG"

On the other hand, if we change it in any way listed, these so called "multi-hit attackers" stand only to benefit with their glassy face rolly "multi-hit attacks"

Solution? Stop building glass and eating 20 procs of Retaliation because yu wanted to be cool and do big damage but totally disrespect people who knows when to stack Retaliation at the right time to beat yur butt.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 Retal should not work on clones, pets and minions.2 Retal should not be GIVEN to other players by any means3 Retal should be hard to get4 Retal should have internal cooldown. 0.5s would be fine OR retal could reflect part of the damage taken.5 Retals damage could go up.

[Bazsi.2734]

mAke iT sCaLe wItH cOnDiTiOn dAmAgE!

Man, someone is salty that his/her 1000 pockets of damage in 5 seconds build is getting hardcountered.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

It might be interesting if retal got a damage buff, duration nerf, and stacked like stability. Each hit would consume 1 stack, and abilities would grant multiple stacks. You would still have the skillful play of using a retal skill before receiving a multi hit attack, but it would eventually be consumed or decay, preventing it from being a long term passive damage source.

[Sasquatch.5436]

what build even is there with multiple fast hits and retal actually hurts a bit? The only thing I can think of is casting barrage into an entire team stacked with retal. either way your issue is to l2p. retal is fine

[Ovark.2514]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:I reckon I will die before I see a poll on this forum that is unbiased.

Yeah, after I posted I realized I should have divided response #6 into two or left it and #7 out entirely.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:I reckon I will die before I see a poll on this forum that is unbiased.

It would have to be something that people have zero passion about like...

POLL:Should player instruments be allowed before a match starts

YesNo

If you mean people should not include their own personal bias in their poll options then yeah, I can see that here and being like

Yes - I am encouraged to play and I get hyped by hearing people play Ariana Grande before a match startsNo - I have zero musical taste and I am against fun.

Should not try to guilt people into voting for what you want if you decide to make it a vote.

[Quadox.7834]

To the people who think retal is fine, did you think retal was completely underpowered and advocated for buffing it when we were prepatch? Because why else would we nerf pretty much all damage in the game but absolutely not touch retal (because if you ask for that you obv must be some sort of bronze scrub)? It doesn't make sense.

[Ovark.2514]

@"Yasai.3549" said:I don't even see the point of this.

CORRECTLY TIMED RETALIATION STACKINGI wouldn't nearly have as much issue with Retaliation if this were why I was dying to it. Unfortunately, a boon that stacks in duration and can be applied with uninteruptable skills and stacked such that it is effectively infinite is not what could be considered "Correctly Timed".On the other hand, if we change it in any way listed, these so called "multi-hit attackers" stand only to benefit with their glassy face rolly "multi-hit attacks"Correct, except for the "Face rolly" part.Solution? Stop building glass and eating 20 procs of Retaliation because yu wanted to be cool and do big damage but totally disrespect people who knows when to stack Retaliation at the right time to beat yur butt.Are you saying that certain builds should just NOT be played? If so, you must be championing for a redesign of such skills.

[Sasquatch.5436]

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:I don't even see the point of this.

CORRECTLY TIMED RETALIATION STACKINGI wouldn't nearly have as much issue with Retaliation if this were why I was dying to it. Unfortunately, a boon that stacks in duration and can be applied with uninteruptable skills and stacked such that it is effectively infinite is not what could be considered "Correctly Timed".On the other hand, if we change it in any way listed, these so called "multi-hit attackers" stand only to benefit with their glassy face rolly "multi-hit attacks"Correct, except for the "Face rolly" part.Solution? Stop building glass and eating 20 procs of Retaliation because yu wanted to be cool and do big damage but totally disrespect people who knows when to stack Retaliation at the right time to beat yur butt.Are you saying that certain builds should just NOT be played? If so, you must be championing for a redesign of such skills.

or you could just play those builds and not unload into a stack of retaliation

[Ovark.2514]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:1 Retal should not work on clones, pets and minions.2 Retal should not be GIVEN to other players by any means3 Retal should be hard to get4 Retal should have internal cooldown. 0.5s would be fine OR retal could reflect part of the damage taken.5 Retals damage could go up.

Nice suggestions. I'm not a fan of ICDs but the rest is good. Thanks for giving actual productive feedback! :D

[Ovark.2514]

@scarydogie.3024 said:what build even is there with multiple fast hits and retal actually hurts a bit? The only thing I can think of is casting barrage into an entire team stacked with retal. either way your issue is to l2p. retal is fine

The answer is Tempest, rangers running warhorn and longbow, and probably a lot of stuff I haven't played in a while. Also, as mentioned in description and in responses, retal can be permanent in some builds so it's not a l2p (rude btw) issue at all. I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

[Jobber.6348]

@scarydogie.3024 said:

or you could just play those builds and not unload into a stack of retaliation

It doesn't take half a brain to acknowledge exactly what Professions are able to pulse Retaliation.Very few Professions and even lesser builds have the ability to pulse Retaliation to their party in PvP.

And a majority of Retaliation sharing is done by only 1 Profession : Guardian.Any other Profession which gets Retaliation probably does it as a side effect of something else and doesn't really build for it.

Light Auras are also provided mostly by Guardian's Light Fields and very rarely from other sources like an Engi's Elixir Field for example.

TL:DR : see a Support Guardian/FB? Well maybe don't think yu can just drop all yur multihits on node and expect to not get suddenly destroyed by Retaliation.

[otto.5684]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@scarydogie.3024 said:

or you could just play those builds and not unload into a stack of retaliation

It doesn't take half a brain to acknowledge exactly what Professions are able to pulse Retaliation.Very few Professions and even lesser builds have the ability to pulse Retaliation to their party in PvP.

And a majority of Retaliation sharing is done by only 1 Profession : Guardian.Any other Profession which gets Retaliation probably does it as a side effect of something else and doesn't really build for it.

Light Auras are also provided mostly by Guardian's Light Fields and very rarely from other sources like an Engi's Elixir Field for example.

TL:DR : see a Support Guardian/FB? Well maybe don't think yu can just drop all yur multihits on node and expect to not get suddenly destroyed by Retaliation.

FB without virtues has one source of retaliation on over 60 sec CD. Even with virtues, it is very limited. Only core power guardian has access to retaliation. Which is not a viable build, not even remotely.

Rev probably has the second best access to retaliation, after core guardian.

In any case, they can nerf it is damage, which is what I suggested a long time ago. It is a pointless design on avoidable damage.

[Downstate.4697]

The only profession complaining about retal is probably mesmer. The boon is fine as it is imo. Revs usually have to trait for lots of retal and most dont. Guardian probably has too much access to it

[Exedore.6320]

Retaliation is supposed to punish rapid attacks. It provides another element of counter-play (using slow attacks) besides waiting for it run out.

That being said, capping the damage return is a bad idea. If a cap was instituted, the damage return would need to be increased, which just makes the whole idea frustrating.

Intensity stacking is interesting, but probably also a bad idea, as it could make many abilities suicidal against guardians. Because most sources are instant - as it's a reactive ability - it's very easy to get to a high stack count before the opponent realizes it.

The best solution is to just cut down on sources. Make the boon a deliberate action as opposed to shall bits from everywhere leading to high uptime. And if it wasn't adjusted in the patch, the power coefficient could be reduced in sync with ability damage.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Retal is a good counter to builds that have alot of damage packets right?I feel some builds/playstyles should have a hard counter like this. Honestly if you are having a problem against a particular build, then you need to change to counter. If it's a problem in 2v2 u can change what u need. If it's in 5v5 then u need to not engage that player with retal and learn ur builds capabilities.

[Faux Play.6104]

@scarydogie.3024 said:what build even is there with multiple fast hits and retal actually hurts a bit? The only thing I can think of is casting barrage into an entire team stacked with retal. either way your issue is to l2p. retal is fine

Pew ranger with onewolf pack. Mesmer builds that have you skillfully hit every attack button at once to oneshot someone. Pistol thief.

[Jobber.6348]

@"otto.5684" said:

FB without virtues has one source of retaliation on over 60 sec CD. Even with virtues, it is very limited. Only core power guardian has access to retaliation. Which is not a viable build, not even remotely.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Liberationhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22

[otto.5684]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"otto.5684" said:

FB without virtues has one source of retaliation on over 60 sec CD. Even with virtues, it is very limited. Only core power guardian has access to retaliation. Which is not a viable build, not even remotely.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Liberation

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Stand_Your_Ground!%22

Neither of these skills are now used in sPvP, by any guardian build. Surely not by FB, sage or zeal.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Now, I play core power mesmer, which is a profession that on paper should be most vulnerable to retaliation (sword 2 hurts more the mesmer than the target if ret is on, each greatsword AA are actually three hits, greatsword2 bounces 3 times; on top of that, power mesmers have very low HP, armor and healing). Not even once I felt any retaliation pressure. May I suggest running some boon removal, IDK? They are there for a reason.

[Leonidrex.5649]

IF retal was scarce it would be fineor this shit happens https://imgur.com/TFSfP9Zwhere scrapper and FB or 2 FBs moist eachother with perma retal and anything you do deals more damage to yourself then to them.add druid/scourge into the mix and behold perma retal must deal 100k+ dmg to kil anything