The current state of Stealth hurts the game.

[Aenaos.8160]

Even after the almighty balance patch it is still possible for a class to exit stealth and delete a high sustain heavy class in under 2 seconds. Literally, I was on a Guardian FB, a PP Thief came out of stealth without any hint of it being there before, and within the time it took me to dodge and try to counter with a reflect while it was unloading I was in downed state. I wasn't more than 2 secs. I'll speak only for my case, but in a game where there is no carrot to persue and the quality of the game play is what attracts and keeps a player playing, this kind of bs ends up hurting the game. Of course I'm sure the other guy had fun.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Glass cannon unload hurts. What elite or heal did you have up? Might be worth running Renewed Focus for such instances. Or keep a twitchy finger on one of the many guardian block skills.

[Dzheen.5291]

So you was standing still for 2 secs and watching how thief channelled Sneak Attack + Unload? Sneak Attack 1 sec + Unload 1.5 secs= 2.5 secs. How could you not press dodge during this time?In WvW Sneak Attack ~3-4k and Unload ~4-5k = ~7-9k for 2.5 secs. It's laughable damage. And it's projectiles and channeled skills.Was it 1v1 and you was full hp before fight or thief +1 while you fight with someone else?

[lare.5129]

Sorry, translator can't mostly understand about that written, but I absolutely agree that current state of Stealth hurts me.I want have one button, press it, and be 100% time in stealth.

[Junkpile.7439]

Weird thing that my full mesmer burst doesn't even hurt condi bunkers anymore. I can only kill thiefs.

[Dzheen.5291]

I found this video

P/P thief vs Guardian FB. Guardian has around 10k hp. Sneak Attack deals 1.7-3.3k damage. Unload 2.8-3.5k damage.How it's possible to die in 2 secs?

[Clownmug.8357]

@Dzheen.5291 said:So you was standing still for 2 secs and watching how thief channelled Sneak Attack + Unload? Sneak Attack 1 sec + Unload 1.5 secs= 2.5 secs. How could you not press dodge during this time?In WvW Sneak Attack ~3-4k and Unload ~4-5k = ~7-9k for 2.5 secs. It's laughable damage. And it's projectiles and channeled skills.Was it 1v1 and you was full hp before fight or thief +1 while you fight with someone else?

Pretty accurate estimates, seems weird that the thief forgot to pick any traits or use any utility skills though.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I think what we have here is that the thief found a perfect target. We really don't know the context of your scenario - were you out in the open? What was your location? Were you alone and exposed? We cannot assume anything other than that the thief chose its appropriate target type and managed to pull off a kill on someone they most likely knew was unaware. I would like to see full videos of peoples encounter with thieves (not just a 5-10s video, at least something just before their encounter so we know what led up to it), so we can break it down and analyze what happened.

[Ayodhya.6051]

@"Dzheen.5291" said:I found this video

P/P thief vs Guardian FB. Guardian has around 10k hp. Sneak Attack deals 1.7-3.3k damage. Unload 2.8-3.5k damage.

Wow. That is an amazing video. I had no idea a thief could stay stealth that long. That was one thief against five or six experienced players and they did not come close to killing him. Very skilled thief, obviously, but still.

[apharma.3741]

OP doesn't state what they were running either stats or skills. If 1 Unload killed him in 2s then it was probably not minstrels, think zerk or at least marauder.

The current state of marked in WvW means no-one should ever really complain about stealth as it basically shuts down anything that relies on stealth defensively. Seriously before you hit that reply button and furiously type on the keyboard try fighting as DP thief or shatter mesmer while marked, it's like fighting with 1 hand tied behind your back.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Ran into a messmer the other day who would go stealth every-time I engaged, And when he finally turned to fight me he basically one shot me. Now im not running glass cannon at all but he dumped some serious damage on me while also going back into stealth to spike me. I then also ran into a thief who came out of stealth, and hit me so hard I felt like I had been hit by some form of god-mode.

Stealth and the classes who have it have some serious power issues, its not power-creep. Its just stealth is such a strong tool and they get it paired with dodges, teleports and other such gimmicks that it makes it unfun to play against them. If the stealth was limited to a E-spec then sure, whatever but their entire class has had it since the beginning and I honestly hold no respect for people who require such gimmicks to fight.. How is it fair that you can reset an encounter and leave me still trying to recover, you can cheese cooldowns and basically hide while Im trying to figure out what to do. (Most of the time ill just turtle up and wait for you to come out and move on, Ill make my way to a tower or some such thing and keep my guard up. There are tells for it but it depends on how close and what they intend on hitting you with.)

This whole playstyle needs to be worked on, because it feels like these classes have not been brought down to an appropriate level like some of the others. And their power is even more apparent given the state of specific classes. (Currently leveling both classes, to understand them better and maybe use em. If its broken abuse it until they are forced to change it... they will change it if the population of these classes goes up and shows what its capable of.)

[Dzheen.5291]

@Ayodhya.6051 said:Wow. That is an amazing video. I had no idea a thief could stay stealth that long. That was one thief against five or six experienced players and they did not come close to killing him. Very skilled thief, obviously, but still.

That's just not true. First he fight 1vs2 and 1vs1 vs different players but not at same time. And from 2:10 were was 2 thiefs. His friend came. After that he start to kite to res his friend. At the middle of video they fight 2vs3. At the end of video were was 4-5 vs 3 thief (another thief came) but they killed him quickly. So telling that thief fights 1vs5 skilled players this is a huge exaggeration.

[Luranni.9470]

I'd go for adjusting so it can -only- be used for short 1-2 second line-ups, no perma cheese. That or perhaps make revealed last as long as you were stealthed and no backsies.

[LetoII.3782]

@"Dzheen.5291" said:I found this video

P/P thief vs Guardian FB. Guardian has around 10k hp. Sneak Attack deals 1.7-3.3k damage. Unload 2.8-3.5k damage.How it's possible to die in 2 secs?

Yeah, and "the time it took me to dodge"... Quit clicking

[kash.9213]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Ran into a messmer the other day who would go stealth every-time I engaged, And when he finally turned to fight me he basically one shot me. Now im not running glass cannon at all but he dumped some serious damage on me while also going back into stealth to spike me. I then also ran into a thief who came out of stealth, and hit me so hard I felt like I had been hit by some form of god-mode.

Stealth and the classes who have it have some serious power issues, its not power-creep. Its just stealth is such a strong tool and they get it paired with dodges, teleports and other such gimmicks that it makes it unfun to play against them. If the stealth was limited to a E-spec then sure, whatever but their entire class has had it since the beginning and I honestly hold no respect for people who require such gimmicks to fight.. How is it fair that you can reset an encounter and leave me still trying to recover, you can cheese cooldowns and basically hide while Im trying to figure out what to do. (Most of the time ill just turtle up and wait for you to come out and move on, Ill make my way to a tower or some such thing and keep my guard up. There are tells for it but it depends on how close and what they intend on hitting you with.)

This whole playstyle needs to be worked on, because it feels like these classes have not been brought down to an appropriate level like some of the others. And their power is even more apparent given the state of specific classes. (Currently leveling both classes, to understand them better and maybe use em. If its broken abuse it until they are forced to change it... they will change it if the population of these classes goes up and shows what its capable of.)

They could change stealth so that you see a sort of Predator like blur or half opacity or something and the outcome would still be the same for the most part except where and how long they wait for the runner to fall into a spot with a better angle for approach. I go into stealth for the modifiers from Shadow Arts but actually being unseen isn't a big deal, go ahead and take the stealth out give us blinks or something instead and I'd be all for it. Something like that would be a lot safer then trying to pack in a somewhat passable opener or counter on anything apart from gimmicky glass players before you either get nuked or have to spend everything to maybe get to a reset distance.

[ArchonWing.9480]

You can't just nerf stealth because for the most part that's all thief has left. The class needs an overhaul. A lot of people liked daredevil because it didn't require as much stealth but that was hated on too much as well.

A lot of the PoF elites were mistakes. It does not help that they kept nerfing core and hot specs to drive us to use new ones. True story.

[Lalary.3561]

Nah, get gud.

[elemainomegalul.4261]

....................................

[Dzheen.5291]

@mtnjkbm.7452 said:

@"Dzheen.5291" said:I found this video

P/P thief vs Guardian FB. Guardian has around 10k hp. Sneak Attack deals 1.7-3.3k damage. Unload 2.8-3.5k damage.How it's possible to die in 2 secs?

you forgot to add the massive condi spike plus fear which the unload/+traits deal....

Massive condi spike from unload? Unload can apply only 2-3 stack of poison if you take DA trait Deadly Ambition, Panic Strike and Potent Poison. And for fear you need to take SA and be in stealth. I doubt that anyone would use unload from stealth. You must mean something else. "P/P unload" is mostly power builds. And i dont know any thief condi builds that can kill in 2 secs.Can you show that build you mean and maybe some video?And as you see in video there is no massive condi spike. I really want to see how this is possible.

[Substance E.4852]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:A lot of people liked daredevil because it didn't require as much stealth but that was hated on too much as well.

I'm sure evasion spam on a massive damage kit had nothing to do with it

[Tourist McGee.2931]

I tried playing stealth once. I felt so dirty. Took a lot of therapy to work through the shame of using invisibility in pvp.

[Sobx.1758]

@Wormfodder.2051 said:I tried playing stealth once. I felt so dirty. Took a lot of therapy to work through the shame of using invisibility in pvp.

Lets see the vid from that \o/

Oh wait, your post from today:

@Wormfodder.2051 said:Haven't played this game since shortly after launch. Came back yesterday and this lag and disconnect is really starting to make me regret that choice...

[kash.9213]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:A lot of people liked daredevil because it didn't require as much stealth but that was hated on too much as well.

I'm sure evasion spam on a massive damage kit had nothing to do with it

You can see a daredevil and either blow up the ground they're messing around on or let them gas themselves out, I doubt anyone builds for a feed back loop with Achro and Drd anymore unless I'm missing out on something. Would it help you any if other players weren't allowed to unholster their weapons until you get a few shots in first?

[DeceiverX.8361]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:You can't just nerf stealth because for the most part that's all thief has left. The class needs an overhaul. A lot of people liked daredevil because it didn't require as much stealth but that was hated on too much as well.

A lot of the PoF elites were mistakes. It does not help that they kept nerfing core and hot specs to drive us to use new ones. True story.

Ehhh a lot of people liked Daredevil because it had even more stealth than core with BDodge and OH pistol. It was particularly good because of UC before its nerfs, staff having way too much damage and special interactions with various other mechanics like stow/about face, and steal still at 1200.

Thief more or less can't be balanced because its power budget across kits is all messed up. If they made 2/3/4 all dual skills, they could fix a lot of problems and make each kit viable and equally-strong which is usually the crux of most of the balancing problems thief has had over the years. Can't rework unhealthy stuff (like perma stealth) or certain traits when those same traits and some of the same mechanics are the sole reason some kits are even remotely playable. I've expressed the same mantra since like 2013.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@kash.9213 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Ran into a messmer the other day who would go stealth every-time I engaged, And when he finally turned to fight me he basically one shot me. Now im not running glass cannon at all but he dumped some serious damage on me while also going back into stealth to spike me. I then also ran into a thief who came out of stealth, and hit me so hard I felt like I had been hit by some form of god-mode.

Stealth and the classes who have it have some serious power issues, its not power-creep. Its just stealth is such a strong tool and they get it paired with dodges, teleports and other such gimmicks that it makes it unfun to play against them. If the stealth was limited to a E-spec then sure, whatever but their entire class has had it since the beginning and I honestly hold no respect for people who require such gimmicks to fight.. How is it fair that you can reset an encounter and leave me still trying to recover, you can cheese cooldowns and basically hide while Im trying to figure out what to do. (Most of the time ill just turtle up and wait for you to come out and move on, Ill make my way to a tower or some such thing and keep my guard up. There are tells for it but it depends on how close and what they intend on hitting you with.)

This whole playstyle needs to be worked on, because it feels like these classes have not been brought down to an appropriate level like some of the others. And their power is even more apparent given the state of specific classes. (Currently leveling both classes, to understand them better and maybe use em. If its broken abuse it until they are forced to change it... they will change it if the population of these classes goes up and shows what its capable of.)

They could change stealth so that you see a sort of Predator like blur or half opacity or something and the outcome would still be the same for the most part except where and how long they wait for the runner to fall into a spot with a better angle for approach. I go into stealth for the modifiers from Shadow Arts but actually being unseen isn't a big deal, go ahead and take the stealth out give us blinks or something instead and I'd be all for it. Something like that would be a lot safer then trying to pack in a somewhat passable opener or counter on anything apart from gimmicky glass players before you either get nuked or have to spend everything to maybe get to a reset distance.

Down for anything, I don't mind dying. I mind dying before I see or can even acknowledge my opponent and then get jumped on because the little stink is running a one shot build that because you can't see them you can't prepare for.

Still feel they didn't get hit hard enough on either end during the damage nerf.