Strike Missions are going to end up like raids — mostly closed for new players.

[Obtena.7952]

@Aridon.8362 said:Okay to sum up the reality of the title of this thread, let's say the title should be renamed to: Strike missions are going to end up just like raids--mostly closed to players who are afraid of failure.

Maybe ... but considering who this game caters to, that would still be a valid concern.

Let's be clear: It is NOT in Anet's best interest to put ANY barriers in front of people that they are presenting this content to in an OW format. People might want it 'easy' that's true ... but don't think for a second those people are fooled by the attempt for Anet to inject raid content (that at best they are neutral to) into their playground. That 'transplant' is going to die hard like the original version if that's the ONLY change to raids that Anet is offering to those same people.

The only difference is that now they are part of OW maps and seemingly sneaking their way into map metas, it's going to be clear that this direction means it's content we will have to eat just because it's what Anet put on our plate. I loathe the fact that content is being delivered like this and I have no doubt others feel the same. It's a direction where my choice goes from doing content or not to playing the game or not. That's not a healthy choice that Anet should be giving to players.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Antycypator.9874" said:Just look at the LFG sometimes. 100LI, 250LI, 100 Dhuum KP(!), for SIMPLE and EASY content.That's because it's anything but easy and simple for a majority of players. Seriously, a lot of players do wipe at grothmar strike (or would wipe if they still were doing it), much less the actually hard ones.Yes, strike missions are going to end up like raids, and for exactly the same reasons as raids. It's just that those reasons are quite a lot different than the ones you bring up.

How beating W5 is supposed to help me complete a strike mission which can be easily finished by bunch of random players without support and heal?Because it will filter out the really random players. Like the ones that wipe at Grothmar, for example.

I'm doing strikes everyday, only with random people. Of course, sometimes it's difficult to do Whisper Of Jormag or Boneskinner, but honestly LI and KP doesn't mean anything. I saw a lot of people pinging 250LI and messing raids like beginers. I can ping my 600LI and do 10k dps because today I want to play my engi and I never learnt it's rotation. I just have fun playing holo. But, hey, I have what you asked for.So, if you can get someone with 600 LI doing only 10k, think how big the dps would be from players that can't even ping fake chat codes for LI. Hint: the majority of the open world squad players deal somewhere around 3-4k dps. And i did see players with that kind of dps in the "all welcome" raid attempts as well, by the way (some of which included very competent healers and support, so all boons were covered). Your 10k, which you consider to be low, is already a godly damage to many players.

Does my LI matter now?Well, it got the group someone with 10k dps instead of a third of that. And that's only dps, without going into things like reacting to boss mechanics, for example (which i bet you also do far better than an average player). So i'm sure it did matter.I can be a first timer in strikes and screw everything, but still I know how to do raids.You will likely screw far less than someone that is first time in strike,, but doesn't know how to do raids.It's not OK if you have to participate in different content to gain access to strikes; it's like "show me you dungeoneer title to play Fractals with us". Strike Missions are easy, just need to remember 1 or 2 simple things.And yet a lot of people wipe on even the easiest one, the one that you could probably solo.

[Asum.4960]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Aeon.4583" said:Yeah it is very very ironic how you need to be good in raids to porticipate in strikes. Should be the other way around, isn't it?

You don't. There are some experienced Raiders looking for like minded players of a similar skill level in hopes for a quick and smooth run, I don't see anything wrong with that. Especially since their favoured content, like Raids, hasn't seen any updates for almost a year, or like Fractal CM's for almost 3 years. That community has to go somewhere and is likely intend on maintaining their expectations to their groups.

If you are not (yet) part of that community or don't want to be, you don't have to join those groups.

Everybody who actually wants to can play and beat this content (and to a lesser extend the same goes for Raids, it's just more effort to find or get beginner groups going, mainly due to lack of new content to serve as more even jump in point).It's just easier to complain most of the time than to actually do something about it.

Or you can stay on Wing 5/6 and let the more casual envoroment alone without the KP /LI requiments .What kind of logic is that ?.. I did wing 5 and i then i move to a more casual and impose there humogous amount of requiments too ?

Have you checked yourself in the mirror , and aks yourself why you are saying to the casuals 4 YEARS NOW ''you dont try hard enought'' . And when some1 else asked you why Raids are discontinued/failed you give them this answer :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1166940#Comment_1166940

(short answer > the company released Wing 5 ... 9 months after the Wing4 .... the majority got a heart attack and quit ... its the company that screw it up)

! > @Asum.4960 said:! > > @thepenmonster.3621 said:! > > One last try...! >! > Indeed.! >! > > @thepenmonster.3621 said:! > > There's a wider trending downwards that is beyond anyone's ability to change. People play games on their phones in 2020. Also GW2 is an "old" game. A loss of players and revenue was inevitable, will continue for a while, and it will

never

be 2014 for them ever again. Adding more to game modes

that were never popular to begin with

won't change that.! > >! > > Anet are trying to draw more players into the raids and the like so they can justify putting more manpower into it, so it's obvious they are more on your side of things than mine (their efforts are better spent elsewhere IMO). They

want

that side of the game played more. You will need at least one more year to see how that plan shakes out so the doom-screamers need to slow their roll and wait.! > >! > > I don't think it'll work solely because.... Pink Tap-Dancing Elephant in the Room time... it's not the difficulty that keeps people away from those modes, it's the people playing them. Only time will tell if strikes will make hardcore modes appealing, because hardcore players sure ain't.! >! > While there is an unfortunate wider trend, it's both one GW2 has been defying for years now, as well as the drop for 2019 going far beyond that overall trend.! >! > Raids at it's peak according to efficiency with VG was cleared by 30% of the player base, which only started to drastically dip after release schedules for the content slowed down significantly, in addition to coinciding with a disappointingly easy Wing 4 release, after that increased wait time - driving away a lot of disappointed hardcore players.! > Not only was that not a niche audience, it was also a highly engaged one. Both in and out of game.! >! > And ofc they want that side of the game to be played more, because it's an area of the game where communities (static raid groups) and guilds are formed, and which can be repeated for years on end, which is what combined keeps players engaged (and interacting with the gemstore) longterm, over the log in every 3-4 months and play for a week, or even just 2h, free single player content that LW provides, after which players check out again without getting much or consistent Gemstore engagement, let alone creating buzz around the game from outside engagement.! >! > The best way to enjoy content like Raiding is and has always been forming/joining a static of like minded people.! > Pugging is a last resort for coordinated group content, and especially unsuited for beginners due to clashing expectations and mentalities.! > Hardcore players aren't keeping anyone away from hardcore content as much as casuals are barring themselves from it. It's just a lot of casual players are used to being able to do whatever and still get free instant gratification across most of the rest of the game, which clashes quite hard when they then try to join a organised team environment tackling semi-difficult content with certain baseline expectations, making it needlessly hard on themselves, as well as the people they are joining unprepared.! > There is a reason training groups exist, and everybody is able to from their own group according to their own skill level and expectations, socially and in terms of what amount of content progression they expect.! >! > Lastly, I'm pretty confident that if Anet had released another HoT like feature rich expansion with a more endgame focus in late 2019, the buzz leading up to that as well as the sales number from that would have most likely lead to revenue of the levels of 2014 again.! > It's not like 2016, 17 and 18 weren't on that level.! > It's just that they really dropped the ball in 2019, regardless of any trends working against them, which is reflected in a 23% drop in revenue from the previously lowest year for GW2 in 2016, which was suffering from the content draught after HoT.!

First of all, I mostly quit the game for a while after the "Template" fiasco and due to the lack of new engaging content and just recently came back playing a bit now and then, and quite casually so.In doing so I've never asked anyone for LI or KP for strikes, and considering their difficulty (or lack thereof) find it quite ridiculous to do so personally.I myself mostly pug Strikes through LFG, the majority of those groups I joined have no requirements whatsoever, or at most ask for some experience with the mechanics.

That said, I don't see what the issue is with people wanting to play with like minded people of a similar skill level? How does that harm anyone, and why do casual players keep complaining about it to this extend? Everybody has the ability to form their own groups with their own rules and requirements.

I've never seen hardcore players being toxic about casuals making groups with no requirements and how they now don't even want to play the content anymore.Why is the other way around constantly the case? Why are casuals in this community so toxic and hostile towards hardcore players and content, wanting everybody to play by their rules, rather than just doing their own thing?Don't like LI/KP groups? Don't make/join them and make/join one without.

And why are Raiders moving to Strikes? Well, maybe they got tired of playing the same 3h of content, with seemingly no future, daily/weekly for years, so now they are moving to something at least somewhat comparable and new.Clearly there is an audience for hardcore content, they are just not getting it, so it's not surprising to now see those players in semi-casual strikes, but still wanting to play with other competent players for the smooth experience they are used to and with a efficiency which is fun to them.Nothing wrong with that.

Also the highest/most common serious LI requirement for Strikes that I've seen so far was 100LI, which is 4 full clears, aka 12 hours of raiding over 4 weeks. And while it would take a beginner surely more time than that to acquire, it's hardly humongous.

Also, as said before, these requirements are usually just to provide some sort of barrier of entry to get at least baseline competent players and is hardly ever enforced, especially if players joining are upfront and honest about lacking the requirements and about their skill and experience level. Sure, some will just kick players lacking the requirements, but that's entirely their prerogative, just as more casual groups can kick elitists from their casual group if they are not a fit.

You have played with simply minded player and you had the orppotunity to put them in your friendlist , for 5 straight years now (including your guild) .What you cannot find 10 ppl , from the 30% of the population that did the first boss from Wing 1 ?Is it the Templates ... that broke those friends bonds ? Where they , simpy '' discarded tools'' for each day to be used ?

The majority of the population dont have Raid LI/KP , because they havent done Raids .So you comming here and telling them that they should go in Training Raids > put some efford > dont expect everything to be handed to them > AND THEN TRIED STRIKE MISSIONS AFTER THEY GET 100 LI , it doesnt sound too welcoming from here .Why shouldnt in return , be hostile to you too ?

At this point I honestly don't even know what you are on about or what your beef with me is.

I also didn't tell anyone they have to go do Raids and get LI to get into Strikes, quite the contrary.

Your kind , breeds the same mentality that resulted into the failure of Raids .It was not the company fault for releasing raids 9 months later ... but comments like this ...

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Aeon.4583" said:Yeah it is very very ironic how you need to be good in raids to porticipate in strikes. Should be the other way around, isn't it?

You don't. There are some experienced Raiders looking for like minded players of a similar skill level in hopes for a quick and smooth run, I don't see anything wrong with that. Especially since their favoured content, like Raids, hasn't seen any updates for almost a year, or like Fractal CM's for almost 3 years. That community has to go somewhere and is likely intend on maintaining their expectations to their groups.

So you are saying players choosing to play with like minded other players of a similar skill level, having fun together to the detriment of no one else is what is killing hardcore content, rather than people only getting 30 minutes of new hardcore content every year (or 15 minutes of content in 3 years for Fractals), burning out on playing the same extremely limited selection of content over and over, all while feeling like the content they are investing time and effort in has no future?

And seriously, what is so outrageous to you about me suggesting to people to make their own groups with their own set of requirements (or lack thereof) and to have fun playing the way they want to play, regardless of what others are doing?Why are you, and a large part of the more casually playing community so hostile and toxic about how other more hardcore oriented players choose to play the game, rather than just playing the way you want to play yourself?

How are you harmed in any way by someone else asking for 100LI or what have you for a Strike, when you can just join another group not asking for that, or make one yourself?

Why does everybody have to play by your rules and cater to your needs, or be a horrible elitist?

I'm not saying people who play Strikes or Raids or any other content with groups without any requirement are doing it wrong or don't belong, quite the opposite, I think it's great (and I'm infact one of those more casual players currently). Just like I also think it's perfectly fine for people with different expectations to set requirements for playing together with strangers, making it more likely that the expectations and skill levels in those groups are more aligned, making it in turn more likely that everybody has a good time in those groups as well.

You are the one propagating a hostile mindset that is keeping yourself and other players away from more engaging content such as Strikes and Raids, when really you could just be making your own groups with your own set of rules and expectations, not other players asking for LI.

When casuals would come here to whine aout the increasing demand of KP/LI/gizmos from last bosses , that was increasing by the min ....When the casual would whine that all players forced them to like their Berseker gear ....When casuals would come here to whine about needed to 20k dps otherwise they would get kicked ....

You would come here and try to shut them down

There main reason there are more groups asking for specific requirements in LFG, at least for Strikes, than those without is because those without fill much faster, often near instantly, while the ones with requirements stick around a while until they fill up, increasing their perceived visibility.If the people who Raid are such a small minority, how could the majority of LFG's be people asking for LI and who is joining all those groups?And why does no one else make their own groups without requirements?

Like a broken record I'm going to say it again, just make your own group if you take issues with existing groups in LFG asking for specific things.Nobody is keeping you from playing that content, no one is forcing you to provide LI, no one is forcing you to play with specific gear, no one is forcing you to have a certain amount of DPS - unless you purposefully chose to join a group with any of those requirements over one without or to make your own group.

I'm not shutting anyone down, rather than just pointing out the entitlement and victim mentality of some vocal casuals, who rather spend their energy complaining about other's not catering to them than to just make their own way.

Again, how hard is it to put up your own LFG asking for "X content, everyone welcome", and how does another player asking for LI for their own group prevent you from doing so or harm your experience in any way?

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:Have you thought for a sec , from where those players demanding such ludicrus demands copy from ?It was from the company ? From other casuals ?When we see ppl hating Raids .... they hate the company ? The other casuals ?Do they whine about the 30 min Raids every 9 months ?

You failed with raids ... dont do the same in StrikesUse the 5 year friendlist/guild

Surprisingly the players who hate Raids aren't the ones complaining about lack of Raids, but the ones who enjoy and play Raids, yes.

And again you are trying to tell me how to play the game and how I'm allowed to look for groups, even though I'm not even one of those players keen on LI checks for especially Strikes myself.I just recognize that it doesn't effect me in any way if other's do.

If I want to do a casual Strike run with a wacky/niche build I just don't join a group looking for specific things I'm not willing or able to provide, expecting them to just cater to my demands. I join a casual group or, if currently not available, make my own, so I don't come in conflict with other players with different expectations.

If I want to play casually and/or am playing on a build I know can't perform at high levels/fill certain asked for roles, it is my fault if I get kicked should I join a group asking for those things and it would be imo quite rude of me to waste other people's time like that.

Raids or Fractal CM's didn't fail, they just lacked support. Strikes won't fail either, but yes, if Anet scales them back and only releases a single Strike every 1-3 years and never updates the rewards in half a decade, Strikes will slowly die out too.That has very little to nothing to do with how people make their own LFG's/groups, as that is not an ability hardcore players or elitists have a monopoly over.

Don't tell other people how they have to play and enjoy the game, just play it how you enjoy it.

The basic logic that I’m getting from those who are arguing their point against you Asum, is that I think that people are considering Raids to be somewhat of a failure, due to the gate of entry as well as requirements.

My basic understanding is that they don’t want Strikes to fail like Raids because of those reasons probably because they are enjoying the content and are beginning to guard it out of fear.

100% get what your saying in your post though, but I think this generally what the problem is.

I understand the point, I just disagree with the idea at the core though as that perceived gate of entry is almost entirely self-imposed.

People can't just sit in LFG, waiting for that perfect 7-9/10 player squad of elite and friendly PuG players with all essential roles and mechanics covered, looking for the one or few open spots as everybody welcome for a free ride. That's usually just not going to happen, and that's not how it happened for any of us who did get into Raids by putting in the effort to do so.

It's not like every single existing Raider in the game didn't have to overcome that or some other hurdle.The very first people to Raid had to put in tremendous amounts of effort and work to figure out all the boss mechanics, worthwhile builds and squad compositions, and everyone coming in after that had to either prove they were worth bringing along or at least not be a detriment to the hopefully successful future clear, or put in the work to search for/join a static training group to start out and learn with together (which is imo by far the best way to get into that content).

Then there are some players who want to come into Raids and just look at LFG, don't see the perfect group to just carry them through or they just join a random squad without having had put in the effort of practicing at the golem until they achieved neccessary numbers and reading guides to prepare for the fights, didn't carry their weight and got kicked, and then their conclusion is that everybody else in that content is the boogeyman, toxic elitists, instead for even just a second considering that maybe the fault was with them, and that they should put in some effort to be a part of high effort content. That they were the ones rudely wasting the time of 9 other players by coming unprepared.

Now I'm not sure if I agree with the conclusion that Raids have "failed", as I think it's by far the best content ArenaNet ever made, along with Fractal CM's, and I had the best time and formed the best and friendliest communities in that content.But, were we to say they failed, then I would argue it's not because a majority of experienced players want to play with other experienced players and just have a good and efficient time, that's just natural.

It's because a larger part of the community did just sit around waiting to get carried rather than showing initiative by putting in their own work like everybody else did who already plays that content, making sure they are up to speed and getting their own groups together.That in a fatal combination with way too little new hardcore content to draw in more players and to serve as jump in point for new groups to form with new interest, as well as a dwindling veteran playerbase as they rightfully felt like the hardcore content they were putting effort in had no future, burning out.

If casual players don't step up to form their own groups to get going together instead of just expecting perfect veteran groups to pick them up without requirements to carry them, and if Anet slows down content production with Strikes to the point of Raids and Fractal's, the same death will come to Strikes as well, as it will to anything else for that matter.

That is not on existing hardcore players, who have been more than generous over the years with selflessly offering Raid trainings, making and posting builds and benchmarks, producing Boss guides and on and on, providing every possible resource for new players that they could.All of which is an incredible amount of work for which they got nothing back, other than maybe the spite of a toxic and hostile casual community which got conditioned by the rest of the game to expect to get rewards without effort, breeding a sense of entitlement.

Are there toxic hardcore players who unreasonably kick players and/or ask for astronomical requirements which got out of hand? Yes, absolutely!But who really cares? No one is forced to play with them. We all have the ability to make our own groups and form our own communities to have fun together and to enjoy this great content. All it takes is some effort to facilitate or to look for that.

If someone is unwilling to put anything in, they imo have no right to complain when they don't get anything out.As nice as that would be, that's usually just not how things work. And honestly, part of the appeal of Raids is exactly that you have to put some effort in to get those then rewarding moments of beating that content and getting the rewards, feeling like you actually earned them.A feeling which is pretty rare in GW2 otherwise.

Raids, Fractals and Strikes* are not solo content and you have to be able to work together with others to beat them, how anyone does that (and if that is something they want to do) is up to them. But no one is entitled to just get a group that caters to them, and everybody has the ability to form their own.

* excluding Shiverpeaks Pass

[Digit.1823]

@Obtena.7952 said:-snip-

Pretty sure the argument is between players who feel excluded by li/kp groups and people telling them to (and rightfully so) make their own groups.

What has Anet to do with any of this and any barriers Anet's putting up? This is a player/playerbase issue.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Digit.1823 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:-snip-

Pretty sure the argument is between players who feel excluded by li/kp groups and people telling them to (and rightfully so) make their own groups.

Actually, it's more between first group mistakenly believing LI/KPs have any relation to their problems with finding a group, and second group suggesting a solution they fully know is not going to work for a majority of players (because, let's be honest, a group consisting of only inexperienced players is simply going to wipe).

The first group's suggestions are either (removing LI/KPS) not going to help, or (experienced players not asking for those) are not reasonable (and, also not going to work, because groups not filtering experienced players are not likely to get filled with players capable of finishing the content). The second group's suggestions (just make your own group) aren't exactly helpful either, for a reason already mentioned before. Although, to be honest, the second group is simply not really capable of making a working solution anyway (as it's really about something beyond players' reach).

What has Anet to do with any of this and any barriers Anet's putting up? This is a player/playerbase issue.Actually, the problem comes from something only Anet can solve (specifically, from massive gaps between different player "tiers"). With the caveat, that the problem is not noticeable by everyone, and some players that do notice it do not even consider it to be a problem. They think it's a feature - one worth preserving. Even when they end up indirectly suffering from its existence.

[Asum.4960]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Digit.1823 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:-snip-

Pretty sure the argument is between players who feel excluded by li/kp groups and people telling them to (and rightfully so) make their own groups.

Actually, it's more between first group mistakenly believing LI/KPs have any relation to their problems with finding a group, and second group suggesting a solution they fully know is not going to work for a majority of players (because, let's be honest, a group consisting of only inexperienced players is simply going to wipe).

The first group's suggestions are either (removing LI/KPS) not going to help, or (experienced players not asking for those) are not reasonable (and, also not going to work, because groups not filtering experienced players are not likely to get filled with players capable of finishing the content). The second group's suggestions (just make your own group) aren't exactly helpful either, for a reason already mentioned before. Although, to be honest, the second group is simply not really capable of making a working solution anyway (as it's really about something beyond players' reach).

The point I would disagree with here is the notion that making their own groups is "not going to work" because those groups will wipe. Wiping is a fundamental part of the learning process for hard group content and imo part of the experience. Sure I remember it being frustrating at times when I think back of my group starting out together years ago, not being able to clear a single wing for Weeks until we slowly got better and better as individuals and group week by week.But that process of improvement and growth is what makes this content in GW2 so unique and fun.Having seen players go from struggling at VG, Gorse and on, slowly grinding through boss after boss, week after week, wiping for hours at a time, to eventually beating Dhuum together and full clearing was incredibly rewarding for me. That's how you instill real pride and accomplishment in players.That's what Raids are about. Not just joining some veteran group and getting blasted through the content with them out of the kindness of their hearts, while never having to grow as player and person.

The problem is not that beginner groups are going to wipe, it's that everybody expects to be able to clear everything first try without effort in this game, because that's the difficulty 95%+ of the rest of the game is set up for.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

What has Anet to do with any of this and any barriers Anet's putting up? This is a player/playerbase issue.Actually, the problem comes from something only Anet can solve (specifically, from massive gaps between different player "tiers"). With the caveat, that the problem is not noticeable by everyone, and some players that do notice it do not even consider it to

be

a problem. They think it's a

feature

- one worth preserving. Even when they end up indirectly suffering from its existence.

Absolutely agree with this second point in here though, although I think the problem is on both ends instead.As for what Anet can do and where they failed, there just isn't enough consistently challenging content in the game, especially for casual players to brush up with now and then to steadily improve.Either you play in godmode in 95% of the game (open world, story) and never drastically improve as player (or even realising how massive the gap to good players is), or you join that segmented away few and far inbetween instanced hard content (Raids, Fractals) which will probably squash you at first, seeming almost impossible to beat to a frustrating degree, unless you really give the content a chance, bear the frustration and wipes until you let yourself grow and improve as a player - both in terms of growing in gameplay skill, as well as personally and getting used to and being okay with failure, using it as motivator to get better rather than just giving up and complaining immediately, which then leads to some of the most rewarding (at least mentally) and fun to play content in the game.

There I think Strikes are actually a great opportunity which Anet took trying to address that, as groups of complete beginners can easily band together and beat at least the first few fairly easily without getting too frustrated by hours of wiping if they really apply themselves, while then having other great but not too great challenges in sight to overcome with the other Strikes.Problem is, it's still content relegated away to a few instances players need to consciously join, building up some barrier in their own head of that content not being for them, or one bad experience or wipe (which is a natural part of the process of learning, not a failure, you only fail when you give up after), instead of being something they are gradually being exposed to as players while progressing through the game and it's expansions.

Anet needs to stop being so afraid to let players experience minor failures, as they are essentially a parent smothering their children, dooming them to exactly that long term as they rob them of experiences to grow on.Going back and nerfing even the most disappointingly easy story bosses because some peoples reflex is to instantly complain and cry if they don't get their way immediately is not helpful.They are not going to just quit if you don't do anything, no matter how loud they cry at first. The vast majority is going to get that out of their system, and then sit down and for the first time try to understand why they are failing, asking themselves what they can do differently, finally growing as players.But every time before that second part can happen, Anet goes back and crushes any possibility of that with content nerfs.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Asum.4960":Like i said, some do not consider it to be a problem at all. You're obviously in that group.

As for what Anet can do and where they failed, there just isn't enough consistently challenging content in the game, especially for casual players to brush up with now and then to steadily improve.And that's where the core of this problem lies. No, it's not the lack of intermediate difficulty content (although that one is indeed lacking). The issue is that intermediate content, while useful and needed, can't really cause casual players to "brush up and improve".

The combat/class/skill system is so complicated, that the only way for players to improve is for players to do it completely on their own, using out-of-game resources. The game does not help with that - moreover, it can't really help with that. The main improvements are about things the game is incapable of teaching - the game has no idea what the current good builds are, or how the rotation should look like. And since it has no idea, it cannot teach those things.

That's completely on devs, not on players. Yes, any individual player can improve on their own, but expecting a large number of players to do so is naive. That basically never happens - not unless the game restricts itself to a very small and niche audience, which GW2 definitely does not do.

Most other games go around this problem by minimizing skill gap effect by pushing major part of effectiveness (and improvement) on gear. Gw2 not only does not do that (as it has no gear grind), but the freeform build system, action combat, and the whole "spam correct rotations as fast as possible" approach only inflate those differences even more.

Basically, gw2 has been designed from the ground up to heavily reward skill. In itself, it's probably commendable, and hard to argue against. Unfortunately, in any content where skill matters, the baseline is set so high, that in effect it comes with harsh penalties applied to any skill inadequacies players might have, to the point that a huge majority of players end up in the "heavily penalized" zone. And the system is built in such a way, that it's impossible for it not to work like that, because the differences between different skill tiers are absolutely massive. There's, after all, no point in making a content where skill matters, if you happen to set baseline so the players that do care about skill will find it laughably easy.

That, again, is not playerbase issue, but a design one.

[yann.1946]

@Astralporing.1957 said:@"Asum.4960":Like i said, some do not consider it to be a problem at all. You're obviously in that group.

As for what Anet can do and where they failed, there just isn't enough consistently challenging content in the game, especially for casual players to brush up with now and then to steadily improve.And that's where the core of this problem lies. No, it's not the lack of intermediate difficulty content (although that one

is

indeed lacking). The issue is that intermediate content, while useful and needed,

can't

really cause casual players to "brush up and improve".

The combat/class/skill system is so complicated, that the only way for players to improve is for players to do it completely on their own, using out-of-game resources. The game does not help with that - moreover, it can't really help with that. The main improvements are about things the game is incapable of teaching - the game has no idea what the current good builds are, or how the rotation should look like. And since it has no idea, it cannot teach those things.

That's completely on devs, not on players. Yes, any

individual

player can improve on their own, but expecting a large number of players to do so is naive. That basically never happens - not unless the game restricts itself to a very small and niche audience, which GW2 definitely does not do.

Most other games go around this problem by minimizing skill gap effect by pushing major part of effectiveness (and improvement) on gear. Gw2 not only does not do that (as it has no gear grind), but the freeform build system, action combat, and the whole "spam correct rotations as fast as possible" approach only inflate those differences even more.

Basically, gw2 has been designed from the ground up to heavily reward skill. In itself, it's probably commendable, and hard to argue against. Unfortunately, in any content where skill matters, the baseline is set so high, that in effect it comes with harsh penalties applied to any skill inadequacies players might have, to the point that a huge majority of players end up in the "heavily penalized" zone. And the system is built in such a way, that it's impossible for it not to work like that, because the differences between different skill tiers are absolutely massive. There's, after all, no point in making a content where skill matters, if you happen to set baseline so the players that do care about skill will find it laughably easy.

That, again, is not playerbase issue, but a

design

one.

The only thing i disagree with is that content can't make people improve. Some skills are hard to teach (buildcraft for example). But pure mechanical skill can be thought by the game.As an example most people are better at playing the game at the end of the personal story vs when they just start out.

And while buildcraft is harder to teach, i don't see the difference to a player checking a guide to find all jahai coins vs looking up buildinformation online.

[Asum.4960]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Like i said, some do not consider it to be a problem at all. You're obviously in that group.

I think it's a huge issue, maybe even the biggest problem facing PvE, but as I said I just think the problem is on both ends. It's both a design and player base mentality issue.Now if your argument, and it seems to be, is that the game design formed the player base issue, or at least didn't facilitate a solution to it, I absolutely agree and that's something I've been saying for years now.

Neither a tutorial, nor a Raid easy mode, intermediate content like Strikes or whatever else sectioned off effort to introduce people to more challenging content, although it is great to have and does help some, will work at large.What a, especially skill based, game needs is subtle and consistent challenges to make people reconsider, think and learn repeatedly to grow as players, without it feeling like a brick wall or chore.When it comes to design, two things are crucial to keep in mind about humans, a) people learn by repetition and b) motivation comes after action, not before.

You can't just put in hard content without having people challenged repeatedly on the way to get there, nor can you expect people at large to just get up and want to challenge themselves on their own accord. It's going to be too tall of a wall to get over and a lot of people are going to think the content is not for them and don't even attempt to climb it.

Not everything needs to be super hard, not at all, there is plenty room for easy content. But consistent semi-optional challenges in the day to day gameplay (story, open world etc.) fix both of these issues. That way players learn the mechanics by doing, grow as players and get a taste for overcoming challenges and further improving themselves, resulting in much more success of more challenging content and uplifting both the average skill level and player quality as well as the quality of content design devs can produce, as not everything has to be dumped down to the absolute lowest denominator, while being a bore to everybody above that.

Still, where the player base fault comes in is in the fact that despite the fact that the game doesn't provide these crucial steps for players to get into content like Raids both in terms of skill level and mentality adjustment, obviously some people managed to do it anyway, and if they can do it, pretty much anyone else can as well. They just don't really want to, and yea, that's where the design failure to incentivise that comes in.

@Astralporing.1957 said:The combat/class/skill system is so complicated, that the only way for players to improve is for players to do it completely on their own, using out-of-game resources. The game does not help with that - moreover, it can't really help with that. The main improvements are about things the game is incapable of teaching - the game has no idea what the current good builds are, or how the rotation should look like. And since it has no idea, it cannot teach those things.

The game can teach players what good builds are currently, for the content at hand, by making them fail if they don't have one. It's really that easy to make people experiment and research, but that takes guts to stick with as dev because you want everybody to have a good time.One thing to realise though is that the discomfort of that failure is temporary, while the lessons that are gained from it can blossom into much greater joy and investment of and from the player as it opens to doors to more intricate and engaging content.

[Yasai.3549]

It already is.Just like Fractals are the "new" Dungeons, Strikes are the "new" Raids.

Fractals are bite sized dungeons that can be completed within 20 - 30minutes.Strikes are bite sized Raids that can be completed within 5 - 10 minutes.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute shit damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.

Asking for LI for Whispers etc. is still ridiculous imo, but I understand that people don't want to fail all the time. So much for me: I watched one video of Whispers and we did it. I am an experienced player though but seeing how SHITE most players are (wiping at EVERY FUCKING yellow dots at Boneskinner) is just beyond me. I don't even know how they would play a super mario game.

[Aaralyna.3104]

I only see that strike with needing li (or buy) in lfg as well on eu for boneskinner and whisper of jormag.

And now I am doing "Ryland Steelcatcher's Footsteps" achievement from Visions of the Past, and what does it have as requirement " Confrontation - Found after defeating the Whisper of Jormag Strike Mission."

I am suprised players aren't raging yet (or they didn't see it yet).

Anet really should have allowed players to also make the story version count for this one as its simply similar but easier. Pugging whisper of jormag for 30 minutes to an hour can still have you fail/not complete it as its incredibly dependant on others and not everyone can get a static (or be failproof themselves).

[Ashantara.8731]

@Linken.6345 said:Then just start all welcome strike teams and let the people who want to play with raiders be?

I already said it in another thread: No, that's not an acceptable solution, because you thereby support an elitist mentality. I have raided in the past and done well, I consider myself in general a good enough player for strike missions, because I quickly learn mechanics, watch out for AoE fields, dodge on time, etc. Yet, on one occasion I was kicked before we even got started simply because I couldn't provide 250 LI (in that case the Commander had forgotten to put their raid requirements in LFG, but still, it's ridiculous).

Usually, I am the one complaining about other players' if they perform extremely badly, even after a lengthy explanation, in terms of mechanics... but that's after I saw them perform, not beforehand.

This kind of mentality needs to stop now, or it'll scare a lot of non-raiders away from strikes.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Linken.6345" said:Then just start all welcome strike teams and let the people who want to play with raiders be?

I already said it in another thread: No, that's

not

an acceptable solution, because you thereby support an elitist mentality.

It is the best acceptable solution you are going to get until you start paying other people to play how YOU want them to.

Live with it or not, this is not going to change.

FYI, my most toxic experiences in relation to strikes has been in no requirements LFGs, which is also the reason I don't join all welcome groups any longer (but rather make my own or join groups with minimum requirements, no matter if LI/KP/ESS). The last one was with a "Full Clear all welcome, please know mechanics" which resulted in 7! people total leaving after different strike boss kills with 0 fails in-between (with 4 players leaving after the first boss). Do I now get to complain about LFGs without requirements and the type of players they attract?

[Obtena.7952]

@Asum.4960 said:As for what Anet can do and where they failed, there just isn't enough consistently challenging content in the game, especially for casual players to brush up with now and then to steadily improve.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:And that's where the core of this problem lies. No, it's not the lack of intermediate difficulty content (although that one is indeed lacking). The issue is that intermediate content, while useful and needed, can't really cause casual players to "brush up and improve".

Furthermore, there is a fallacy that a casual player should NEED to do this. This is the barrier I'm referring to. IF Anet isn't going to appeal to what the casual player wants from a game (and I'm betting that what they want has little or nothing to do with 'brushing up and improving'), at best, they feel disregarded, at worst, they stop playing it. This will lead to reduced revenues from those players. I shouldn't need to remind anyone what kind of players this game was founded on do I?

Here is the kicker ... maybe Anet thinks the demographic has shifted and more players want a more 'traditional' MMO content offering ... or that they think they can shift the demographic by offering a more 'traditional MMO' content offering. We can only see if that's true ... but it's a highly risky experiment for Anet to take a chance with.

[Asum.4960]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Linken.6345 said:Then just start all welcome strike teams and let the people who want to play with raiders be?

I already said it in another thread: No, that's

not

an acceptable solution, because you thereby support an elitist mentality.This kind of mentality needs to stop now, or it'll scare a lot of non-raiders away from strikes.

Can you elaborate on how starting your own zero requirement LFG's is supporting elitist mentalities? Because I don't quite follow.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Asum.4960 said:As for what Anet can do and where they failed, there just isn't enough consistently challenging content in the game, especially for casual players to brush up with now and then to steadily improve.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:And that's where the core of this problem lies. No, it's not the lack of intermediate difficulty content (although that one

is

indeed lacking). The issue is that intermediate content, while useful and needed,

can't

really cause casual players to "brush up and improve".

Furthermore, there is a fallacy that a casual player should NEED to do this. This is the barrier I'm referring to. IF Anet isn't going to appeal to what the casual player wants from a game (and I'm betting that what they want has little to nothing to do with 'brushing up and improving'), they aren't going to play it. PERIOD.

I think the argument at hand is more about players who would enjoy more hardcore content if given a taste of it, not that everybody needs to like it or follow up on it.Considering GW2 has thousands of hours of casual content with open world, story, the large majority of achievements and such on one hand and maybe 30 (although much more highly repeatable) hours of hardcore content on the other, I don't think catering to casuals is in jeopardy.The question is how can the game better facilitate getting people who want, or if given a taste would want to, to participate in hardcore content.The reason I say if given a taste would want to is because more often than not players have no idea what they want. As I stated before in other discussions, I never thought Raids would be for me or that I would ever play that content until I gave it a chance and discovered it to be by far the best content in the game with the best communities, coming as a complete surprise as a previously 99% solo player who wasn't into group content and those perceived pressures coming with it which I had build up in my mind at all.

Getting people to brush up to that content just opens doors. If they are still unwanted then there's no harm done, the 95% of the game that's ultra casual content is still there to enjoy instead. But not providing players a better opportunity to even discover those parts of the game and allowing them to organically grow in skill to be ready for it should they want to is just a shame imo.

Just as you are concerned about the casual experience, I'm fairly certain there are casual players who would have loved Raids and be engaged by them for months if not years to come quitting every day because they burned out on what the casual content could offer them. kind of having done it all, thinking erroneously that content like Raids just isn't for them or that they just aren't good enough for it.

@Obtena.7952 said:Here is the kicker ... maybe Anet thinks the demographic has shifted and more players want a more 'traditional' MMO content offering ... or that they think they can shift the demographic by offering a more 'traditional MMO' content offering. We can only see if that's true ... but it's a highly risky experiment for Anet to take a chance with.

Focusing entirely on high cost low return/replayability casual content over the last year was a highly risky experiment, and considering the earning reports among other things it's one that didn't work out at all. Them wanting to shift back seems pretty reasonable, the question is just whether it's too little too late or not.

[Katary.7096]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Linken.6345 said:Then just start all welcome strike teams and let the people who want to play with raiders be?

I already said it in another thread: No, that's

not

an acceptable solution, because you thereby support an elitist mentality.

I am quite curious to learn what you would consider an acceptable solution.

[Obtena.7952]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Here is the kicker ... maybe Anet thinks the demographic has shifted and more players want a more 'traditional' MMO content offering ... or that they think they can shift the demographic by offering a more 'traditional MMO' content offering. We can only see if that's true ... but it's a highly risky experiment for Anet to take a chance with.

Focusing entirely on high cost low return/replayability casual content over the last year was a highly risky experiment, and considering the earning reports among other things it's one that didn't work out at all. Them wanting to shift back seems pretty reasonable, the question is just whether it's too little too late or not.

You can't conclude that from earnings reports alone and you can't conclude that even if that's true, the new direction, whatever it is, will fix that. You have no correlation between earnings and players doing content ... only Anet does.

Again, Anet aren't going to 'get' anyone to 'brush up and improve' if it's not what players are looking for in a game. Put it this way ... the players that this content doesn't appeal to are not so desperate to play GW2 that they are willing to subject themselves to things they don't want to do in order to play it. That's a FLAWED way of thinking.

[Klypto.1703]

The content they are making seems like optimistic that this game may continue but also that the game is closer than ever to becoming complete maintenance mode. So it is like preparation for good and bad where all of the design from these comes into play. The rewards are just so the whole ascended gear thing still remains intact in a maintenance mode where players are still able to obtain them despite low population.

[Henry.5713]

The issue of convoluted kill and or experience proofs will continue to arise until we finally see something like a kill counter. People have always been forced to use what was avaible to them at the time. Just be happy they aren't asking for AP like in the old days. Demonizing KPs and removing any method we are currently using will simply lead to the introduction of something new and even more convoluted.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Asum.4960" said:The game can teach players what good builds are currently, for the content at hand, by making them fail if they don't have one. It's really that easy to make people experiment and research, but that takes guts to stick with as dev because you want everybody to have a good time.Except it doesn't really work. Most of the players simply won't be experimenting and researching, They will not know why they have failed, nor will they care. They will keep bashing their heads against the wall up until a certain point, and if the wall won't give up fast enough, will simply decide that content is not for them.

Honestly, even a lot of raiders aren't so keen on experimenting, and their researching stops at looking at the few sites that tell them what to do. There are also raiders that do not check anything unless they are specifically told to do so by someone they depend on information. If you can see this kind of approach even among the seemingly more hardcore crowd, what makes you think that it will be any better for more casual players?

One thing to realise though is that the comfort of that failure is temporary, while the lessons that are gained from it can blossom into much greater joy and investment of and from the player as it opens to doors to more intricate and engaging content.That's a very nice theory, but the years of MMORPGs have shown, that the reality just doesn't work like that, for a huge majority of players anyway. What can "blossom into much greater joy and investment" and "open the doors to more intricate and engaging content" for some, will only blossom into unhappiness and disappointment, and close the door to more engaging content for most.

Like i said, other MMORPGs get around it by allowing players to overgear the content. If you're not good enough to do the raid, you can simply wait a bit, get a better gear and try again - and this time you will find it easier (until at some point it will become easy enough for you to pass). GW2, obviously, cannot do that.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear, based on rotation alone. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

[Katary.7096]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear,

based on rotation alone

. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

How big is the difference between two people with the same traits, skills and rotation, but one of them has an optimized mix of berserker and assassin gear and the other is running full nomad?

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@fra.5241 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Stop relying on others to make the squads and make your own. Problem solved.

TL;DR

:There is a simple solution to every LFG issue people have: it's called show personal initiative (aka make your own groups). You don't get to complain about others not playing the way YOU want, while expecting them to do all the work. That's not how the world works.Oh sure, problem solved! It's not about initializing something or not, because this is mental discrimination, and it's a topic that also goes beyond videogames.I'm agree that people have to get a bit of experience to certain contents. Maybe giving player a chance to join, it'd be possible to have an idea of him. But to read certain post as "250LI required", it's litterally crazy!Humanity is the key to all, my friend. But people think only of themselves. This is the real reason!

Your thought process is mindblowing.Lets use your ideas on diferent enviroment.

1) studio coding a game should let anyone without experiance participate because that is discrimination2) profesional football team should let kids from local highschool attend their training3) space agency building a rocket should let local doctor design the engines4) kid which is celebrating his/her birthday should let the neighbour open the gifts because that kids wants to.

You are saying that everyone should put others first. Thats nice. But doesnt that work for the player that wants to join too???Not to mention that there are 9 players that want to play certain way. And one last player joins and now they must follow him? What is this?

Are there experianced players that let new blood into their squads (both for raids and strikes)? Yes.Is that a must? No.

Hell when I am raiding and someone joins without the requirements but is polite and upfront about it I let him in. If someones fake the KP, doesnt comunicate or say that I need to let him in, he is flying away from my squad either back to aerodrome/thenewhubthingy or into my blocklist.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Katary.7096 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear,

based on rotation alone

. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

How big is the difference between two people with the same traits, skills and rotation, but one of them has an optimized mix of berserker and assassin gear and the other is running full nomad?

20k? Probably more on the golem.Edit: will try that and post the results :D

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Katary.7096

So I tested dps under diferent circumstances. The class I picked was old double shortbow soulbeast. It isnt the most powerful dps option and it is the old version but it is the only dps that I sometimes play and also it is easy to play so player skill will not be that huge of a factor.

First test was with all raid buffs and boons + all conditions (standard raid setup) and 4 milion golemI got 27751 dps. That is far away from the top but as I have said, this isnt optimized build (top is around 38-40k now)

Then I took down my trinkets and armor (to simulate totaly wrong gear) but kept all boons, buffs and conditionsI got 10747 dps

After that I droped all the buffs, boons and conditions (and changed the golem to 1 milion golem so I dont die of old age.I got 4152 dps

And last I tried correct build but no buffs, boons and condition on 1 mil golemI got 13640 dps

From that I can rougly estimate that build with 40000 dps benchmark will do15490 without trinkets and armor,5984 without trinkets, armor, buffs, boons and condition on a golem19660 with correct build but no buffs, boons and condition on golrm