Guardian as a whole compared to the rest.

[pninak.1069]

holo's burn chain I use in Pve is big'ol'bomb lava pond followed by firey ammunition. then holoforge skill 4 wait for 100%+ primelightbeam. meanwhile in between pistol skill 4 bomb kit 2+3 and flamethrower 2+4. use rabid gear with balthazar runes some trailblazers to get 100%. For burnguard fb I use settler's with some trailblazer's. mantra of fire signet for condi dmg. traits are obvious.

Now I think this discussion is mostly about wvw, where more and more classes seem to be absent. people switch to harder targets, because they don't wanna get oneshot propably. I think this is directly related to player favouring classes over another and being dishonest. I don't play wvw as much, but mostly use condimirage.

[otto.5684]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

Is not this specifically the issue of this thread is about? It is a question of how many S-B tier builds that guardian has in sPvP. And It is only 1. That was not the case before the patch. Symbol FB was S tier (A tier now). Sage FB was A tier (C tier now). DH media trapper was B+ tier (C tier now). Does guardian have it the worst? No. Mesmer has no A tier builds. Neither does ranger. But as a guardian player, there is only 1 thing I was looking for: more viable and/or competitive guardian builds in sPvP. And clearly, that did not happen, cuz the new CMC guys is clueless, and royally kitten sPvP. Cuz instead of fixing the issues with sPvP he decided to do a hard reset, setting the game back to beta. And he clearly lacks the competence and the vision to get it even back to 1 competitive build per class.

That's your opinion which is, according to the same CMC guy you are dissing, not reflected in the games stats. DH sees a very high win rate in sub P2.

As a guardian player, the fact you have 2-3 builds in S-A tier, while other classes have none at all, should already tell you where your classes is currently situated balance wise.

@otto.5684 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Drennon.7190 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

As you said, it is meme tier. Win rates is a very poor measure, as CMC even hinted at. From another MMO, the devs right out said there is an inverse relationship between overall win rates and effectiveness of a build. Who do you think plays DH now? Flavor of the month rollers, or dedicated veterans who love DH? If you do a scatter shot approach of performance, best indicator typically is volume of people who play a specific build. Not very accurate either, but much better than looking purely at win rate.

You are assuming that all the devs look at is win rate. That is a very poor assumption to make.

Also while win rate is a poor measure, it's better than subjective opinion.

@otto.5684 said:Other approaches need data we players have no access to, so it is only conjecture. Primarily, you need to look at winning compositions in above 1,500 games and in AT, then look the frequency of occurrence of a specific build. Theoretically, if you see mirage popping in many winning compositions (it surely is not), then you know it is the problem. You combine that with its presentation in top 250, top 50 and all across sPvP, that probably is the strongest indicator of performance.

Yes, and guardian is represented there since a very long time now. Unlike at least 4 other classes. You can obviously complain about not having MULTIPLE builds available at that level, but that is a luxury most other classes don't even come close to.

Also again, let's remember that this is AFTER recent balance patches aimed at reducing guardian, and specifically Firebrand, effectiveness. There is absolutely no reason to believe ANY buffs are in line for guardian at the moment.

First, I said it there is only 1 S-B tier build after the patch versus 3 before The patch, you cannot read? It is in the fucking post you quoted.

Second, again you did not read. I said there is an inverse relationship between how good a build and its win rate. Cuz average Joe ain’t playing DH right now. Only the most experienced players who played it for years, and don’t want to give up on it. It is not a measure of good or bad in any form. It does not work. Also, I did not assume the devs use winrate. I dunno what matrixes the devs use. But clearly throwing out means one of two things: either it means something balance wise, and if it does it will be flat out wrong matrix. Or it was thrown there as a shield against criticism. In any case, it means nothing for anything. And that is the point.

Third, “class x has been good for a long time,” is not an argument. This is bull shit talk at its basic form. Even if it is true, it does not prove or disprove, add or delete anything. We are talking about ”now.”

Fourth, this is guardian forum. It is a fucking discussion about guardian. Do I want Mesmer (or any class) to have multiple competitive builds? Sure, but I am not here to discuss Mesmer. This a thread, again, about guardian. the fact the we have less viability than before, being regulated to only 1 competitive build Is an issue. For me, as primarily guardian player that is a big issue. If another class have it worse, that is another issue the devs need to fix. It does not give them a freebie on this.

Lastly, I will continue to criticize CMC cuz he and his team have no clue what the fuck they are doing.they might have some grandiose idea of where they want sPvP to be, but clearly they lack the Competence and the vision to get there.

And... please L2 read. It helps... trust me on this.

[Arken.3725]

I appreciate @otto.5684 in his attempt to stay the course of this discussion which I'm going to also suggest, this is a discussion about Guardian in its current form and a comparison among the rest. I'm still waiting for someone to point out what they believe to be strong about FB outside of symbol's. That is the one(terrible) mechanic I think that's left. Hopefully one day it'll be gone for good and something more enjoyable takes its place.

[Cyninja.2954]

@otto.5684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

Is not this specifically the issue of this thread is about? It is a question of how many S-B tier builds that guardian has in sPvP. And It is only 1. That was not the case before the patch. Symbol FB was S tier (A tier now). Sage FB was A tier (C tier now). DH media trapper was B+ tier (C tier now). Does guardian have it the worst? No. Mesmer has no A tier builds. Neither does ranger. But as a guardian player, there is only 1 thing I was looking for: more viable and/or competitive guardian builds in sPvP. And clearly, that did not happen, cuz the new CMC guys is clueless, and royally kitten sPvP. Cuz instead of fixing the issues with sPvP he decided to do a hard reset, setting the game back to beta. And he clearly lacks the competence and the vision to get it even back to 1 competitive build per class.

That's your opinion which is, according to the same CMC guy you are dissing, not reflected in the games stats. DH sees a very high win rate in sub P2.

As a guardian player, the fact you have 2-3 builds in S-A tier, while other classes have none at all, should already tell you where your classes is currently situated balance wise.

@otto.5684 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Drennon.7190 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

As you said, it is meme tier. Win rates is a very poor measure, as CMC even hinted at. From another MMO, the devs right out said there is an inverse relationship between overall win rates and effectiveness of a build. Who do you think plays DH now? Flavor of the month rollers, or dedicated veterans who love DH? If you do a scatter shot approach of performance, best indicator typically is volume of people who play a specific build. Not very accurate either, but much better than looking purely at win rate.

You are assuming that all the devs look at is win rate. That is a very poor assumption to make.

Also while win rate is a poor measure, it's better than subjective opinion.

@otto.5684 said:Other approaches need data we players have no access to, so it is only conjecture. Primarily, you need to look at winning compositions in above 1,500 games and in AT, then look the frequency of occurrence of a specific build. Theoretically, if you see mirage popping in many winning compositions (it surely is not), then you know it is the problem. You combine that with its presentation in top 250, top 50 and all across sPvP, that probably is the strongest indicator of performance.

Yes, and guardian is represented there since a very long time now. Unlike at least 4 other classes. You can obviously complain about not having MULTIPLE builds available at that level, but that is a luxury most other classes don't even come close to.

Also again, let's remember that this is AFTER recent balance patches aimed at reducing guardian, and specifically Firebrand, effectiveness. There is absolutely no reason to believe ANY buffs are in line for guardian at the moment.

First, I said it there is only 1 S-B tier build after the patch versus 3 before The patch, you cannot read? It is in the kitten post you quoted.

I read that. I disagree that having a build represented in monthly MATs, which is rather easy to play as well, makes it A tier. So I simply bumped every one of your assumed rating by 1 letter up. Leaving symbol Firebrand in S tier etc.

@otto.5684 said:Second, again you did not read. I said there is an inverse relationship between how good a build and its win rate. Cuz average Joe ain’t playing DH right now. Only the most experienced players who played it for years, and don’t want to give up on it. It is not a measure of good or bad in any form. It does not work. Also, I did not assume the devs use winrate. I dunno what matrixes the devs use. But clearly throwing out means one of two things: either it means something balance wise, and if it does it will be flat out wrong matrix. Or it was thrown there as a shield against criticism. In any case, it means nothing for anything. And that is the point.

I read that, again, that is your OPINION which you have no metrics for or have provided none. We do have the fact that DH has a very high win rate from an official source with access to data.

You can assume anything you want to make an argument though.

@otto.5684 said:Third, “class x has been good for a long time,” is not an argument. This is bull kitten talk at its basic form. Even if it is true, it does not prove or disprove, add or delete anything. We are talking about ”now.”

True, it does call into question certain future events. For example, if a class just received balance changes which were aimed at making it weaker or different, unless these changes failed at reaching that goal, there is no reason to assume they will get reverted or reworked.

@otto.5684 said:Fourth, this is guardian forum. It is a kitten discussion about guardian. Do I want Mesmer (or any class) to have multiple competitive builds? Sure, but I am not here to discuss Mesmer. This a thread, again, about guardian. the fact the we have less viability than before, being regulated to only 1 competitive build Is an issue. For me, as primarily guardian player that is a big issue. If another class have it worse, that is another issue the devs need to fix. It does not give them a freebie on this.

Sure, but then there are realistic expectations, and those which are rather far fetched. The pyramid nature of build viability in competitive environments will almost always lead to a very small amount of viable builds at the top end.

@otto.5684 said:Lastly, I will continue to criticize CMC cuz he and his team have no clue what the kitten they are doing.they might have some grandiose idea of where they want sPvP to be, but clearly they lack the Competence and the vision to get there.

Sure, if that floats your boat. I'd say you are heavily biased and would make for a terrible person in charge of balance, but then again, every one on the forums is an expert, aren't we?

@otto.5684 said:And... please L2 read. It helps... trust me on this.

Will do. Thanks. You might want to play something besides guardian to get a feel for how balance in this game actually feels though. It helps... trust me on this.

@Arken.3725 said:I appreciate @otto.5684 in his attempt to stay the course of this discussion which I'm going to also suggest, this is a discussion about Guardian in its current form and a comparison among the rest. I'm still waiting for someone to point out what they believe to be strong about FB outside of symbol's. That is the one(terrible) mechanic I think that's left. Hopefully one day it'll be gone for good and something more enjoyable takes its place.

The easiest answer here is:Firebrand with access to his 3 tomes has a very strong baseline availability of almost all effects:

• condition removal
• stability
• aegis
• taunt
• reflects
• resistance
• pull
• etc.

He has constant access to these effect without ANY cost of build choice. No other class in the game has this availability of utility at hand without sacrificing utility or elite skill slots.

This also leads to Firebrand being build-able in different directions, while retaining baseline utility in all areas. This also leads to balance to the guardian class overall to suffer, since now every change has to be done with Firebrand in mind, which as stated, has access to nearly EVERYTHING.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I've already started to see engines running around with flame throwers literally just spamming it lol.

It's not a burning thing. It's a stability thing.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Arken.3725 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-

Sustain:

When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play.

Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-

Damage-output:

When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful.

One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-

Mobility:

This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

Healing, Aegis spam, Burning damage to some degree, CC, every boon in the game apart from Alacrity let's not forget Guardian is the only class that can reliably give out Stability which in a meta full of CC, Stability is even more important

I'm not complaining about guardian, I think anet should look at how guardian has been balanced and bring the other classes in line with that

[Arken.3725]

You're stating affects but what you're not listing are the duration or how often these are applied @Mini Crinny.6190. This is an important distinction. What kind of healing are you suggesting? Aegis spam? You realize that if we're to talk about Guardian as a whole, DH and Core only have access to f3 and shield 4....how is this spam? List the forms of CC and how easy/difficult it is to pull off, this is something you need to outline to further your argument.

What you've done @Mini Crinny.6190 for this discussion is what nearly every other poster does that can't provide specifics to back-up their own argument. You've listed NOTHING to back it up. All you've done is list items but no sources to which they're attached to.

Once again, I'm waiting.

[otto.5684]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-

Sustain:

When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play.

Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-

Damage-output:

When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful.

One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-

Mobility:

This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

Healing, Aegis spam, Burning damage to some degree, CC, every boon in the game apart from Alacrity let's not forget Guardian is the only class that can reliably give out Stability which in a meta full of CC, Stability is even more important

I'm not complaining about guardian, I think anet should look at how guardian has been balanced and bring the other classes in line with that

Can I play this mythical guardian? Seems so good it runs all 7 trait lines and all utilities AT THE SAME TIME. Btw since they nerfed the elite mantra FB has no access to stability outside of ToC which already has a pretty long CD. Also, none of the guardian builds run any quickness at all, outside of getting it when activating a tome. And might access is super limited. See symbol FB is fairly strong, probably even a bit over performing. But listing every possible thing that can be done, on any class, will surely make them OP.

[Cyninja.2954]

@otto.5684 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-

Sustain:

When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play.

Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-

Damage-output:

When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful.

One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-

Mobility:

This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

Healing, Aegis spam, Burning damage to some degree, CC, every boon in the game apart from Alacrity let's not forget Guardian is the only class that can reliably give out Stability which in a meta full of CC, Stability is even more important

I'm not complaining about guardian, I think anet should look at how guardian has been balanced and bring the other classes in line with that

Can I play this mythical guardian? Seems so good it runs all 7 trait lines and all utilities AT THE SAME TIME. Btw since they nerfed the elite mantra FB has no access to stability outside of ToC which already has a pretty long CD. Also, none of the guardian builds run any quickness at all, outside of getting it when activating a tome. And might access is super limited. See symbol FB is fairly strong, probably even a bit over performing. But listing every possible thing that can be done, on any class, will surely make them OP.

It's funny how every single one of your arguments ends with: except XYZ.

Firebrand has no access to stability from tomes, except ToC skill 5. Firebrand has no access to quickness, except when activating a tome. Symbol Firebrand gives no quickness, except that is due to using a different trait preferably (Unreleting Criticism over Liberator's Vow).

No one said guardian or specifically Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities. That's what traits, utility skills, weapon and elite skills are for. Firebrand has access to EVERYTHING baseline, some of it more, some less, most of it less after the last nerfs. No other class mirrors that utility.

[Arken.3725]

Alright, I think I'm personally done with this thread. Once again, @Cyninja.2954 keeps touting the same rhetoric without anything of substance behind it. This isn't a personal attack just it feels like the same show and dance. Thanks to everyone else for contributing.

[otto.5684]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-

Sustain:

When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play.

Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-

Damage-output:

When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful.

One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-

Mobility:

This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

Healing, Aegis spam, Burning damage to some degree, CC, every boon in the game apart from Alacrity let's not forget Guardian is the only class that can reliably give out Stability which in a meta full of CC, Stability is even more important

I'm not complaining about guardian, I think anet should look at how guardian has been balanced and bring the other classes in line with that

Can I play this mythical guardian? Seems so good it runs all 7 trait lines and all utilities AT THE SAME TIME. Btw since they nerfed the elite mantra FB has no access to stability outside of ToC which already has a pretty long CD. Also, none of the guardian builds run any quickness at all, outside of getting it when activating a tome. And might access is super limited. See symbol FB is fairly strong, probably even a bit over performing. But listing every possible thing that can be done, on any class, will surely make them OP.

It's funny how every single one of your arguments ends with: except XYZ.

Firebrand has no access to stability from tomes, except ToC skill 5. Firebrand has no access to quickness, except when activating a tome. Symbol Firebrand gives no quickness, except that is due to using a different trait preferably (Unreleting Criticism over Liberator's Vow).

No one said guardian or specifically Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities. That's what traits, utility skills, weapon and elite skills are for. Firebrand has access to EVERYTHING baseline, some of it more, some less, most of it less after the last nerfs. No other class mirrors that utility.

Beside the fact that "Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities" is incorrect. NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT FB IS UNDER PERFORMING. The whole fucking point of this thread, is none FB builds in sPvP... Again, you do have a serious comprehension issues...

[Axl.8924]

Question do all the stuff on GS and scepter warhorn need healing power or do you have some separate trait that increases healing power on weapons? you guys sure have a lot of stuff with healing power on it, but really really low healing. Still trying to get used to playing it in the open-world, because I keep running in and face tanking everything, unsure of how to get around.

[Cyninja.2954]

@otto.5684 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-

Sustain:

When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play.

Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-

Damage-output:

When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful.

One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-

Mobility:

This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

Healing, Aegis spam, Burning damage to some degree, CC, every boon in the game apart from Alacrity let's not forget Guardian is the only class that can reliably give out Stability which in a meta full of CC, Stability is even more important

I'm not complaining about guardian, I think anet should look at how guardian has been balanced and bring the other classes in line with that

Can I play this mythical guardian? Seems so good it runs all 7 trait lines and all utilities AT THE SAME TIME. Btw since they nerfed the elite mantra FB has no access to stability outside of ToC which already has a pretty long CD. Also, none of the guardian builds run any quickness at all, outside of getting it when activating a tome. And might access is super limited. See symbol FB is fairly strong, probably even a bit over performing. But listing every possible thing that can be done, on any class, will surely make them OP.

It's funny how every single one of your arguments ends with: except XYZ.

Firebrand has no access to stability from tomes, except ToC skill 5. Firebrand has no access to quickness, except when activating a tome. Symbol Firebrand gives no quickness, except that is due to using a different trait preferably (Unreleting Criticism over Liberator's Vow).

No one said guardian or specifically Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities. That's what traits, utility skills, weapon and elite skills are for. Firebrand has access to EVERYTHING baseline, some of it more, some less, most of it less after the last nerfs. No other class mirrors that utility.

Beside the fact that "Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities" is incorrect.

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT FB IS UNDER PERFORMING

. The whole kitten point of this thread, is none FB builds in sPvP... Again, you do have a serious comprehension issues...

? You literally turned around what I said.

This is what I said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No one said guardian or specifically Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities.

This is what you decided to quote:

@otto.5684 said:Firebrand has EVERYTHING available in high quantities" is incorrect

Weren't you the one asking me to please read more carefully?

Yes, Firebrand is over-performing and in doing so, making it very hard to make any OTHER builds on guardian viable. Somehow I seem to be the only one who deduced this...

@Arken.3725 said:Alright, I think I'm personally done with this thread. Once again, @Cyninja.2954 keeps touting the same rhetoric without anything of substance behind it. This isn't a personal attack just it feels like the same show and dance. Thanks to everyone else for contributing.

Rhetoric? Please show me where anything I stated about Firebrand and how it affects guardian as a whole is incorrect?

Sorry that some people do not agree that one of the strongest classes in the game, in pretty much all game modes, is in serious need of love right now. Yes, once Firebrand is reworked, guardian might need some addressing.

Also no, I play guardian in all its builds, a lot. I have literally 5 guardians: 2 dedicated PvE characters (8 builds with one charatcer on legi armor, 2 dedicated wvw characters and 1 dedicated pvp character. All full ascended on each of their build and equipment tabs (12-13 equipment and builds total since arc was removed). Yet I still realize how over powered the classes currently is, because I play other classes too.

[Axl.8924]

nevermind guys, I found the perfect build for leveling.

I went with the build from metabattle. The build I have is not the full build because i don't have level 71 and I don't have yet enough points, but it's working great.

I went with radiance and zeals so far and its working really well in DPS.

[Arken.3725]

@Cyninja.2954 What you've stated is of nothing of significance. You're talking about an over-abundance of boons but state no duration nor any sources to which said boons derive from. Also, I'm talking strictly from an spvp PoV so I don't understand why you're bringing up modes such as PvE where you're fighting brainless AI.

The biggest offender that anyone can actually back-up are symbols, that's it. That is the only REAL source of damage and it works well in a mode where most of what you're fighting over is the same size. Why do you think such a build doesn't work in open-world PvP(WvW)? You're not limited there to such a small size.

CC I'll state this again and I can back it up with ease. Outside of Shield of Absoprtion and taunt on ToC, all other sources of CC are easily telegraphed and/or have a decent cast-time attached(Axe symbol is 1 second, Blazing Edge is 3/4 sec, Heated Rebuke 3/4 sec). There is NO abundance of unreasonable CC.

Sustain Sustain has dropped significantly on FB or Guardian as a whole. Symbol heals are a joke(65), even Sefless Daring and Pure of heart are borderline a joke WITH significant Healing-power investment. The same is also for the first two charges on Mantra of solace which REQUIRE Honor due to how terrible the healing is(250). This is without even mentioning long charge-times attached to mantras.

Damage and Application This one is hilarious because as primarily a melee class, Guardian is EASILY one of the slowest professions. We have ways to get to our targets(heavy porting investment) but sticking to them is another story(lack of debilitating conditions). Not to mention the terrible tracking on every ranged weapon we have. Also not mentioning that any sort of condition build is utterly useless due to significant nerfs to what little cover condi's FB even had. Good luck burying any of that burning with nothing to cover it.

Mobility This one is too easy. Very little swiftness and no real reliable source of 25% speed with little-to-no movement conditions to keep your targets close. Once again, only if you're running sword with Judge's will you get to your target, doesn't mean you'll stick to them.

See what I did here @Cyninja.2954 ? I brought up actual instances of each category and explaining the issue's within. I didn't just say what was wrong without explaining why it wasn't an issue. You need to do this or you have NO leg to stand on.

Once again, I'm waiting

[Cyninja.2954]

@Arken.3725 said:@Cyninja.2954 What you've stated is of nothing of significance. You're talking about an over-abundance of boons but state no duration nor any sources to which said boons derive from. Also, I'm talking strictly from an spvp PoV so I don't understand why you're bringing up modes such as PvE where you're fighting brainless AI.

Because Firebrand is just as overpowered in Pvp/WvW?

I was not aware I had to explicitly state where guardian gets his boons from, given most of his sources are very straightforward and in abundance, on top of his baseline access.

If this is the level of this discussion, sorry but I expect every guardian to know their class. Go check the wiki on what your skills do, or check in game. My assumption was people knew their skills and traits by heart.

@Arken.3725 said:The biggest offender that anyone can actually back-up are symbols, that's it. That is the only REAL source of damage and it works well in a mode where most of what you're fighting over is the same size. Why do you think such a build doesn't work in open-world PvP(WvW)? You're not limited there to such a small size.

Go and read up on what builds see play in each game mode please, you seem out of touch.

As mentioned, Firebrand is currently in the meta compositions of top teams, is ranked as meta on metabattle (yes, not that great a source, but still a crowdsourced build site) and sees a lot of play in plat and above. Godsofpvp has the current build up which is designed as symbolbrand mirrored on metabattle with some explanation for people who need it.

Dragonhunter has a high win rate in sub plat, which we know according to official statement. It becomes less powerful in plat 1-2 and above since people know how and when to counter the build.

Support Firebrand, condi Firebrand, core burn guardian and power DH see play in WvW extensively. Some more as roamers, some in squads, some in both (specifically condi FB works in all parts of the game mode).

@Arken.3725 said:CC I'll state this again and I can back it up with ease. Outside of Shield of Absoprtion and taunt on ToC, all other sources of CC are easily telegraphed and/or have a decent cast-time attached(Axe symbol is 1 second, Blazing Edge is 3/4 sec, Heated Rebuke 3/4 sec). There is NO abundance of unreasonable CC.

You forgot the F1 pull, which also works as an interrupt and is near instant. Sure, guardian does not have as much cc as some other classes. Given the small scale nature and tight spaces, some of the abilities, even if easily telegraphed, are hard to avoid. You can pretend that axe 2 is well telegraphed, and it is, but it is also easy to place in such a way that the opponent has to disengage or dodge it.

There is no abundance of cc on guardian, there is an abundance of utility.

@Arken.3725 said:Sustain Sustain has dropped significantly on FB or Guardian as a whole. Symbol heals are a joke(65), even Sefless Daring and Pure of heart are borderline a joke WITH significant Healing-power investment. The same is also for the first two charges on Mantra of solace which REQUIRE Honor due to how terrible the healing is(250). This is without even mentioning long charge-times attached to mantras.

The first 2 charges of the heal mantra are meant to be used against hard hitting single attacks. Which they will absorb very nicely thanks to the aegis. If you are spamming this skill for healing, you need to reevaluate how you are playing the class. On top of the 3 blocks from Shield of Wrath, the 1 aegis from Shield of Judgement and any additional aegis gained from tomes.

Dragonhunter suffers when pressured multiple times. The first he can counter by using his heal from Litany, the second time by using his F3 for 3 seconds in combination with aegis from other sources, the third time he can use Renewed Focus, which will make F3 available again. After all that, the Dragonhunter can be pressured and killed.

Not going to explain Firebrand. Everything mentioned for DH applies, only that the class can spam Tome skills on multiple tomes on top of all that.

@Arken.3725 said:Damage and Application This one is hilarious because as primarily a melee class, Guardian is EASILY one of the slowest professions. We have ways to get to our targets(heavy porting investment) but sticking to them is another story(lack of debilitating conditions). Not to mention the terrible tracking on every ranged weapon we have. Also not mentioning that any sort of condition build is utterly useless due to significant nerfs to what little cover condi's FB even had. Good luck burying any of that burning with nothing to cover it.

Melee class, in GW2... okay thanks.

@Arken.3725 said:Mobility This one is too easy. Very little swiftness and no real reliable source of 25% speed with little-to-no movement conditions to keep your targets close. Once again, only if you're running sword with Judge's will you get to your target, doesn't mean you'll stick to them.

Yes, guardian is not as mobile as a thief. It excels at point control, team sustain and point pressure. If you are playing this, you should not be the one rotating to far ideally.

@Arken.3725 said:See what I did here @Cyninja.2954 ? I brought up actual instances of each category and explaining the issue's within. I didn't just say what was wrong without explaining why it wasn't an issue. You need to do this or you have NO leg to stand on.

Once again, I'm waiting

Fine, let me go through guardian and specifically FIREBRAND tomes AGAIN:Tome 1

• access to massive amounts of fire condi (which can serve both as cover condi, but will also do decent damage without any condition damage in the build. Does very high spike damage WITH condition damage in the build)
• access to an aoe pull

Tome 2

• massive condi clear both when entering the tome, on tome 5 and on tome 2
• minor healing and swiftness from other skills

Tome 3

• stability on tome 1 and 5
• taunt on tome 2
• reflect on tome 3
• aoe resistance on tome 4
• aoe aegis, protection and stability on tome 5

All of these skills are available BASELINE and usually 2 times thanks to Renewed Focus. Please show me a single class in this game, which has access to all of these abilities without ANY commitment in traits, utilities, weapons slots or elite (elite only applies with Renewed Focus).

Want me to go on with each and every single trait and mantra? Because those fall into the same category in usefulness.

The mantras as they are implemented on the Firebrand are more powerful than most utility skills if one assumes the entire effect from all 3 uses (how many skills apply 5 stacks of burning similar to Mantra of Flame? Or how many utility skills remove 4 conditions and convert 5 more for a total of 9 removed similar to Mantra of Lore?). The fact that mantras need to get charged is nearly not significant, since this is often done pre fight or in downtime in-between. That's without assuming recharge or the ability to pinpoint allocate the effects.

So, to sum up:Firebrand remains meta in all game modes at the moment (even after nerfs recently). Guardian as a class suffers to some extent because the Firebrand kit is already so strong. Dragonhunter, while technically not a top plat or legend pick for pvp, excels in ease of use and thus sees a high win rate in lower brackets. Core guardian is pretty much one of two classes which can hold its ground in some content be it pvp, pve or wvw. The other being core necro for romaming in wvw and pvp (with maybe core mesmer as burst build in pvp up to plat 1 or 2).

[Shaogin.2679]

I like how this ended. :)

[Math.5123]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Arken.3725 said:@Cyninja.2954 What you've stated is of nothing of significance. You're talking about an over-abundance of boons but state no duration nor any sources to which said boons derive from. Also, I'm talking strictly from an spvp PoV so I don't understand why you're bringing up modes such as PvE where you're fighting brainless AI.

Because Firebrand is just as overpowered in Pvp/WvW?

I was not aware I had to explicitly state where guardian gets his boons from, given most of his sources are very straightforward and in abundance, on top of his baseline access.

If this is the level of this discussion, sorry but I expect every guardian to know their class. Go check the wiki on what your skills do, or check in game. My assumption was people knew their skills and traits by heart.

@Arken.3725 said:The biggest offender that anyone can actually back-up are symbols, that's it. That is the only REAL source of damage and it works well in a mode where most of what you're fighting over is the same size. Why do you think such a build doesn't work in open-world PvP(WvW)? You're not limited there to such a small size.

Go and read up on what builds see play in each game mode please, you seem out of touch.

As mentioned, Firebrand is currently in the meta compositions of top teams, is ranked as meta on metabattle (yes, not that great a source, but still a crowdsourced build site) and sees a lot of play in plat and above. Godsofpvp has the current build up which is designed as symbolbrand mirrored on metabattle with some explanation for people who need it.

Dragonhunter has a high win rate in sub plat, which we know according to official statement. It becomes less powerful in plat 1-2 and above since people know how and when to counter the build.

Support Firebrand, condi Firebrand, core burn guardian and power DH see play in WvW extensively. Some more as roamers, some in squads, some in both (specifically condi FB works in all parts of the game mode).

@Arken.3725 said:

CC

I'll state this again and I can back it up with ease. Outside of Shield of Absoprtion and taunt on ToC, all other sources of CC are easily telegraphed and/or have a decent cast-time attached(Axe symbol is 1 second, Blazing Edge is 3/4 sec, Heated Rebuke 3/4 sec). There is NO abundance of unreasonable CC.

You forgot the F1 pull, which also works as an interrupt and is near instant. Sure, guardian does not have as much cc as some other classes. Given the small scale nature and tight spaces, some of the abilities, even if easily telegraphed, are hard to avoid. You can pretend that axe 2 is well telegraphed, and it is, but it is also easy to place in such a way that the opponent has to disengage or dodge it.

There is no abundance of cc on guardian, there is an abundance of utility.

@Arken.3725 said:

Sustain

Sustain has dropped significantly on FB or Guardian as a whole. Symbol heals are a joke(65), even Sefless Daring and Pure of heart are borderline a joke WITH significant Healing-power investment. The same is also for the first two charges on Mantra of solace which REQUIRE Honor due to how terrible the healing is(250). This is without even mentioning long charge-times attached to mantras.

The first 2 charges of the heal mantra are meant to be used against hard hitting single attacks. Which they will absorb very nicely thanks to the aegis. If you are spamming this skill for healing, you need to reevaluate how you are playing the class. On top of the 3 blocks from Shield of Wrath, the 1 aegis from Shield of Judgement and any additional aegis gained from tomes.

Dragonhunter suffers when pressured multiple times. The first he can counter by using his heal from Litany, the second time by using his F3 for 3 seconds in combination with aegis from other sources, the third time he can use Renewed Focus, which will make F3 available again. After all that, the Dragonhunter can be pressured and killed.

Not going to explain Firebrand. Everything mentioned for DH applies, only that the class can spam Tome skills on multiple tomes on top of all that.

@Arken.3725 said:

Damage and Application

This one is hilarious because as primarily a melee class, Guardian is EASILY one of the slowest professions. We have ways to get to our targets(heavy porting investment) but sticking to them is another story(lack of debilitating conditions). Not to mention the terrible tracking on every ranged weapon we have. Also not mentioning that any sort of condition build is utterly useless due to significant nerfs to what little cover condi's FB even had. Good luck burying any of that burning with nothing to cover it.

Melee class, in GW2... okay thanks.

@Arken.3725 said:

Mobility

This one is too easy. Very little swiftness and no real reliable source of 25% speed with little-to-no movement conditions to keep your targets close. Once again, only if you're running sword with Judge's will you get to your target, doesn't mean you'll stick to them.

Yes, guardian is not as mobile as a thief. It excels at point control, team sustain and point pressure. If you are playing this, you should not be the one rotating to far ideally.

@Arken.3725 said:See what I did here @Cyninja.2954 ? I brought up actual instances of each category and explaining the issue's within. I didn't just say what was wrong without explaining why it wasn't an issue. You need to do this or you have NO leg to stand on.

Once again, I'm waiting

Fine, let me go through guardian and specifically FIREBRAND tomes AGAIN:Tome 1

• access to massive amounts of fire condi (which can serve both as cover condi, but will also do decent damage without any condition damage in the build. Does very high spike damage WITH condition damage in the build)
• access to an aoe pull

Tome 2

• massive condi clear both when entering the tome, on tome 5 and on tome 2
• minor healing and swiftness from other skills

Tome 3

• stability on tome 1 and 5
• taunt on tome 2
• reflect on tome 3
• aoe resistance on tome 4
• aoe aegis, protection and stability on tome 5

All of these skills are available BASELINE and usually 2 times thanks to Renewed Focus.

Please show me a single class in this game, which has access to all of these abilities without ANY commitment in traits, utilities, weapons slots or elite (elite only applies with Renewed Focus).

Want me to go on with each and every single trait and mantra? Because those fall into the same category in usefulness.

The mantras as they are implemented on the Firebrand are more powerful than most utility skills if one assumes the entire effect from all 3 uses (how many skills apply 5 stacks of burning similar to Mantra of Flame? Or how many utility skills remove 4 conditions and convert 5 more for a total of 9 removed similar to Mantra of Lore?). The fact that mantras need to get charged is nearly not significant, since this is often done pre fight or in downtime in-between. That's without assuming recharge or the ability to pinpoint allocate the effects.

So, to sum up:

Firebrand remains meta in all game modes at the moment (even after nerfs recently). Guardian as a class suffers to some extent because the Firebrand kit is already so strong. Dragonhunter, while technically not a top plat or legend pick for pvp, excels in ease of use and thus sees a high win rate in lower brackets. Core guardian is pretty much one of two classes which can hold its ground in some content be it pvp, pve or wvw. The other being core necro for romaming in wvw and pvp (with maybe core mesmer as burst build in pvp up to plat 1 or 2).

If Firebrand is meta in all gamemodes or not really doesn't matter. This is from a PvP point of view.

You asked Arken, one of the highest rated guardians on NA to read up on which builds are currently being played. Let me refresh your memory, in case you're unsure.

Mender Zealbrand. Runs honor and zeal. You can't ever drop honor, because that way you lose big symbols and your ability to deal any damage. If you drop zeal, your power output will be laughable.Sagebrand, runs honor and virtues. Same weapon sets, same play style. Only you trade the power damage from zeal to burning from virtues.

Both of these builds needs to keep people in symbols in order to deal any significant damage (or healing).Say you drop axe, or Firebrand all together. Go duel any class in either PvP or wvw, and make sure you do it off-node. Let me know how much damage you actually manage to land

Guardian is also one of two classes with almost zero scalable defense. This means channeled blocks, evade frames and invulns.The only durational blocks are shelter, in which case you're basically playing without a healing ability due to the pitiful healing in it and the insane cast time. The other one is DH f3 which is a frontal block for 3 second, (which has a cast time unlike warrior and engineer shield and ranger gs) it also has more than twice the cooldown of those skills.

They also have a low health pool, very very low access to protection, no access to evades, no access to vigor outside of your support traitline. This means, you would need honor for any form of sustain. (And ability to land damage through bigger symbols)

"But just run gs or hammer!" You say.

The only damaging ability on hammer ate a 150% CD increase last patch along with guardian losing all quickness access. (You can't drop renewed focus as it's your only sustain.)This means greatsword is your only option for a weapon that isn't symbol based. I will go through every ability on this weapon and explain why you can't run thisThe auto is very very slow and has very few upsides.Whirling wrath is a 3.25 second channel which requires you to be inside someones hitbox to do good damage, due to the nature of how the projectiles work. This also slows you by 50% during the entire channel. Guardian also have next to no access to debilitating conditions to make sure this lands.

Gs3 is fantastic but needs to be saved for disengage rather than damage due to the arguments above.

The symbol is fantastic, but it's once again. A single symbol. If the enemy isn't nice and literally places himself in your symbol out of good will, you won't land damage with this.

GS5 has terrible tracking and misses more than it hits (think old staff Phantasm).

[Cyninja.2954]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Arken.3725 said:@Cyninja.2954 What you've stated is of nothing of significance. You're talking about an over-abundance of boons but state no duration nor any sources to which said boons derive from. Also, I'm talking strictly from an spvp PoV so I don't understand why you're bringing up modes such as PvE where you're fighting brainless AI.

Because Firebrand is just as overpowered in Pvp/WvW?

I was not aware I had to explicitly state where guardian gets his boons from, given most of his sources are very straightforward and in abundance, on top of his baseline access.

If this is the level of this discussion, sorry but I expect every guardian to know their class. Go check the wiki on what your skills do, or check in game. My assumption was people knew their skills and traits by heart.

@Arken.3725 said:The biggest offender that anyone can actually back-up are symbols, that's it. That is the only REAL source of damage and it works well in a mode where most of what you're fighting over is the same size. Why do you think such a build doesn't work in open-world PvP(WvW)? You're not limited there to such a small size.

Go and read up on what builds see play in each game mode please, you seem out of touch.

As mentioned, Firebrand is currently in the meta compositions of top teams, is ranked as meta on metabattle (yes, not that great a source, but still a crowdsourced build site) and sees a lot of play in plat and above. Godsofpvp has the current build up which is designed as symbolbrand mirrored on metabattle with some explanation for people who need it.

Dragonhunter has a high win rate in sub plat, which we know according to official statement. It becomes less powerful in plat 1-2 and above since people know how and when to counter the build.

Support Firebrand, condi Firebrand, core burn guardian and power DH see play in WvW extensively. Some more as roamers, some in squads, some in both (specifically condi FB works in all parts of the game mode).

@Arken.3725 said:

CC

I'll state this again and I can back it up with ease. Outside of Shield of Absoprtion and taunt on ToC, all other sources of CC are easily telegraphed and/or have a decent cast-time attached(Axe symbol is 1 second, Blazing Edge is 3/4 sec, Heated Rebuke 3/4 sec). There is NO abundance of unreasonable CC.

You forgot the F1 pull, which also works as an interrupt and is near instant. Sure, guardian does not have as much cc as some other classes. Given the small scale nature and tight spaces, some of the abilities, even if easily telegraphed, are hard to avoid. You can pretend that axe 2 is well telegraphed, and it is, but it is also easy to place in such a way that the opponent has to disengage or dodge it.

There is no abundance of cc on guardian, there is an abundance of utility.

@Arken.3725 said:

Sustain

Sustain has dropped significantly on FB or Guardian as a whole. Symbol heals are a joke(65), even Sefless Daring and Pure of heart are borderline a joke WITH significant Healing-power investment. The same is also for the first two charges on Mantra of solace which REQUIRE Honor due to how terrible the healing is(250). This is without even mentioning long charge-times attached to mantras.

The first 2 charges of the heal mantra are meant to be used against hard hitting single attacks. Which they will absorb very nicely thanks to the aegis. If you are spamming this skill for healing, you need to reevaluate how you are playing the class. On top of the 3 blocks from Shield of Wrath, the 1 aegis from Shield of Judgement and any additional aegis gained from tomes.

Dragonhunter suffers when pressured multiple times. The first he can counter by using his heal from Litany, the second time by using his F3 for 3 seconds in combination with aegis from other sources, the third time he can use Renewed Focus, which will make F3 available again. After all that, the Dragonhunter can be pressured and killed.

Not going to explain Firebrand. Everything mentioned for DH applies, only that the class can spam Tome skills on multiple tomes on top of all that.

@Arken.3725 said:

Damage and Application

This one is hilarious because as primarily a melee class, Guardian is EASILY one of the slowest professions. We have ways to get to our targets(heavy porting investment) but sticking to them is another story(lack of debilitating conditions). Not to mention the terrible tracking on every ranged weapon we have. Also not mentioning that any sort of condition build is utterly useless due to significant nerfs to what little cover condi's FB even had. Good luck burying any of that burning with nothing to cover it.

Melee class, in GW2... okay thanks.

@Arken.3725 said:

Mobility

This one is too easy. Very little swiftness and no real reliable source of 25% speed with little-to-no movement conditions to keep your targets close. Once again, only if you're running sword with Judge's will you get to your target, doesn't mean you'll stick to them.

Yes, guardian is not as mobile as a thief. It excels at point control, team sustain and point pressure. If you are playing this, you should not be the one rotating to far ideally.

@Arken.3725 said:See what I did here @Cyninja.2954 ? I brought up actual instances of each category and explaining the issue's within. I didn't just say what was wrong without explaining why it wasn't an issue. You need to do this or you have NO leg to stand on.

Once again, I'm waiting

Fine, let me go through guardian and specifically FIREBRAND tomes AGAIN:Tome 1

• access to massive amounts of fire condi (which can serve both as cover condi, but will also do decent damage without any condition damage in the build. Does very high spike damage WITH condition damage in the build)
• access to an aoe pull

Tome 2

• massive condi clear both when entering the tome, on tome 5 and on tome 2
• minor healing and swiftness from other skills

Tome 3

• stability on tome 1 and 5
• taunt on tome 2
• reflect on tome 3
• aoe resistance on tome 4
• aoe aegis, protection and stability on tome 5

All of these skills are available BASELINE and usually 2 times thanks to Renewed Focus.

Please show me a single class in this game, which has access to all of these abilities without ANY commitment in traits, utilities, weapons slots or elite (elite only applies with Renewed Focus).

Want me to go on with each and every single trait and mantra? Because those fall into the same category in usefulness.

The mantras as they are implemented on the Firebrand are more powerful than most utility skills if one assumes the entire effect from all 3 uses (how many skills apply 5 stacks of burning similar to Mantra of Flame? Or how many utility skills remove 4 conditions and convert 5 more for a total of 9 removed similar to Mantra of Lore?). The fact that mantras need to get charged is nearly not significant, since this is often done pre fight or in downtime in-between. That's without assuming recharge or the ability to pinpoint allocate the effects.

So, to sum up:

Firebrand remains meta in all game modes at the moment (even after nerfs recently). Guardian as a class suffers to some extent because the Firebrand kit is already so strong. Dragonhunter, while technically not a top plat or legend pick for pvp, excels in ease of use and thus sees a high win rate in lower brackets. Core guardian is pretty much one of two classes which can hold its ground in some content be it pvp, pve or wvw. The other being core necro for romaming in wvw and pvp (with maybe core mesmer as burst build in pvp up to plat 1 or 2).

If Firebrand is meta in all gamemodes or not really doesn't matter. This is from a PvP point of view.

It does matter, since ALL GAME MODES extends to pvp and wvw. Last I checked, Firebrand is meta top tier in pvp, you even seem to agree further down.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:You asked Arken, one of the highest rated guardians on NA to read up on which builds are currently being played. Let me refresh your memory, in case you're unsure.

Mender Zealbrand. Runs honor and zeal. You can't ever drop honor, because that way you lose big symbols and your ability to deal any damage. If you drop zeal, your power output will be laughable.Sagebrand, runs honor and virtues. Same weapon sets, same play style. Only you trade the power damage from zeal to burning from virtues.

Both of these builds needs to keep people in symbols in order to deal any significant damage (or healing).

Yes, meanwhile there are other classes which have not 1 build viable in top ranks. I already eluded to this: the pyramid like nature of build viability in competitive modes makes multiple builds per class unlikely, unless a class is vastly overpowered.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Say you drop axe, or Firebrand all together. Go duel any class in either PvP or wvw, and make sure you do it off-node. Let me know how much damage you actually manage to land

Let me know how many classes in top tier can choose freely between multiple weapons, then let's talk.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Guardian is also one of two classes with almost zero scalable defense. This means channeled blocks, evade frames and invulns.The only durational blocks are shelter, in which case you're basically playing without a healing ability due to the pitiful healing in it and the insane cast time. The other one is DH f3 which is a frontal block for 3 second, (which has a cast time unlike warrior and engineer shield and ranger gs) it also has more than twice the cooldown of those skills.They also have a low health pool, very very low access to protection, no access to evades, no access to vigor outside of your support traitline. This means, you would need honor for any form of sustain. (And ability to land damage through bigger symbols)

Scalable defense is meaningless if the fixed defenses are more than sufficient (and in this case, the fixed defenses are invuls).

As was mentioned: Dragonhunter has a sufficiently high win rate in lower brackets making it a viable pick up to P1-2. That's as far as some other classes go atm. Is guardian or DH top tier? No, they are more than viable up to top tier though. Firebrand meanwhile IS top tier. I personally don't see a reason to make adjustments to a class this favored until either ALL classes are in this position.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:"But just run gs or hammer!" You say.

I never said that, you are fishing for bad arguments.

TL;DR (quoting myself here since this still applies with making clear how this relates to this answer):

@Cyninja.2954 said:Firebrand remains meta in all game modes at the moment (even after nerfs recently).Yes, that includes pvp.

Guardian as a class suffers to some extent because the Firebrand kit is already so strong. Dragonhunter, while technically not a top plat or legend pick for pvp, excels in ease of use and thus sees a high win rate in lower brackets. Core guardian is pretty much one of two classes which can hold its ground in some content be it pvp, pve or wvw. The other being core necro for romaming in wvw and pvp (with maybe core mesmer as burst build in pvp up to plat 1 or 2).

You want to talk guardian balance overall? Fine, start by suggesting changes to Firebrand first, then go from there.

[Senqu.8054]

@Arken.3725 said:-Mobility: This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

If you want to be mobile you have to take the skills for it. Sword 3 is an 10s port, judges intervention 45s and merciful intervention 40s? I know these are not the best port skills but I don’t see why you should expect to be THAT mobile as a guardian. It should be more of a question if these port skills need a slightly buff. There has to be a balance is some way you know...

[Arken.3725]

@Senqu.8054 I'm all for give and take. Never once stated I wasn't. It's a combination of how outdated they are and a comparison to other professions giving up something similar. Let's look at it and compare:

• warrior: constant 25 percent speed, incredible movement on GS with a decent utility to provide the same (bulls charge).-revenant: constant mobility with near unending swiftness and/or superspeed, incredibly short cd ports, multiple forms of debilitating conditions to keep enemies close. The list goes on and on.-thief: do I really need to explain this one?
• Engineer: either constant 25 percent movement, constant swiftness or superspeed through kits or gadgets, incredible sticking power on hammer.
• Ranger: this one is also obvious, just like thief. I won't go into details unless someone requests it. Hilarious how a Ranger has better melee options than a Guardian....

I think anyone can see a theme here. Guardian is primarily melee and yet it can't even do that well unless we're fighting over a small point. Fun stuff.

[Kodama.6453]

@Arken.3725 said:@"Senqu.8054" I'm all for give and take. Never once stated I wasn't. It's a combination of how outdated they are and a comparison to other professions giving up something similar. Let's look at it and compare:

• Engineer: either constant 25 percent movement, constant swiftness or superspeed through kits or gadgets, incredible sticking power on hammer.

Engineer and incredible sticking power on hammer? What?One of the biggest problems of the hammer is that you can't stick to your target good enough to keep scrapper's barrier generation running. There is just 1 skill that can get argued to provide some sticking power, rocket charge, but even this skill struggles to achieve this. Rocket charge actually covers almost no ground compared to just running, if the enemy has some kind of mobility spell themselves, then you are never going to catch them with the hammer.

So please explain how you came up with the idea that scrapper's hammer provides "incredible sticking power".

[Arken.3725]

It has a long-range cc, a long-evasion on its leap that allows for it. My apologies, maybe it's not incredible but definitely not less than average.

Edit: My point was in combination with the other information I provided, it certainly does have solid sticking power.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Fine, let me go through guardian and specifically FIREBRAND tomes AGAIN:Tome 1

• access to massive amounts of fire condi (which can serve both as cover condi, but will also do decent damage without any condition damage in the build. Does very high spike damage WITH condition damage in the build)
• access to an aoe pull

"massive amounts of fire"..... ummmmm, do you want to actually go and check the skills? All the skills apply a single stack lasting 2 or 3 seconds, apart from #2 which applies 2 stacks. You have 5 pages in the tome, and by the time you're casting your 4th/5th skills the burning from the first ones is already gone, so you'll never build more than 4 stacks with it. It's less burning than ranger torch. It's barely any more than Tempest Fire Overload. Neither of which are considered to be dangerous.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Tome 2

• massive condi clear both when entering the tome, on tome 5 and on tome 2
• minor healing and swiftness from other skills

1st, no, you don't get condi-clear when entering the tome. Not without traiting Absolute Resolution, which none of the currently played FB builds take, because Menders doesn't even take that traitline, and Sage will take Glacial Heart instead. Which is all besides the point, because your rant was about "baseline" not "traited".

2nd, what do you mean "massive" ? Did you maybe forget the nerfs? ToR#2 now clears 1 condi. 1. And ToR#5 now clears 2. That's less than untraited Tempest Water Overload.

Since when does clearing 3 condis, on a 50s cooldown, with a TWO SECOND cast-time, count as "massive" condi-clear ?

@Cyninja.2954 said:Tome 3

• stability on tome 1 and 5
• taunt on tome 2
• reflect on tome 3
• aoe resistance on tome 4
• aoe aegis, protection and stability on tome 5

The stability on ToC is entirely useless, because the FB can't make any use of it. ToC#1 lasts ONE second, AND the FB is locked out of weapon skills. What is even the point of casting ToC#1 ?? You can't cast it reactively to an incoming CC, because of the cast-time. You can't cast it to set-up something else, because of the duration and being locked out of weapons.

Yeah ToC#3#4#5 are nice, they're the only skills on Tomes which are still useful. Now compare those 3 skills as a class-mechanic to, say, Shatters, or Steal, or Shroud.

FB wasn't picked by a single team in EU mAT, not a single one, and it was a total liability for all the NA teams that picked it, it was dying first every fight. NA just don't have much imagination and haven't yet woken up to the fact that it isn't 2019 anymore and FB kinda sucks now. Give it another month or two and they'll realise, and you won't see any being played anywhere. Pretty much all the top EU players who used to play FB have rerolled to Tempest or something else.

I'm taking a break from FB for the next 3-4 months or however long it takes the plebs to catchup to reality, which might then allow some rework to make FB good again. Time to play some Tempest, or Rev, or condi-thief.

FB was a victim of everyone band-waggoning it during the 2v2 season (where, yes, it was definitely over-performing), which resulted in it being over-nerfed for 5v5. It honestly would've been better to just ban it in 2v2 and leave it alone for 5v5.

All of the above from a PvP perspective btw. WvW is a different beast, and PvE is a joke where builds don't matter anyway.

[Yasai.3549]

Guardian as a whole imo is seperated into two forms :

Firebrand and Not Firebrand

Firebrand is just a straight up upgrade over Core and DH if yu consider how much utility the Tomes bring.