How to Fix Stealth

[Bazsi.2734]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

[Kovu.7560]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

I'm not sure how the two compare. Short duration strategic stealths exist in this game and are utilized for what they are already, both on thief and on other professions. All what Lan suggests would "delete" is the toxic permastealth gameplay. Thieves would still have a multitude of ways to _re_stealth, they just couldn't camp it indefinitely.

~ Kovu

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Ok Let's fix stealth with:

1. Senturies
2. Watchtower Tactics
3. Target Painter and Target Painter Traps
4. Warclaw Sniff

Ow wait...

Reason for above is simple, I hear the complaints too ingame, yet none of the complainers EVER uses a Painter.

"A deadeye is tapping our keep!! arrrgggg!!""Did you put painter traps down?""no"

Nuff said.

As for Ts's suggestions:You have any idea how much I rely on stealth to not insta-die to the current condi game that those toxic, stacking 10 in a squad Scourges are doing?Fix stealth? Above sounds fine IF AoE can NO LONGER STACK either. 2nd AoE on top of 1st? NO GO.If those conditions aren't met, you did NOT fix deadeye, you KILLED deadeye in the game mode.

I rather deal with 10 deadeyes on ANY toon than 5 scourges

Now do us all a favor and stop targeting the deadeye only. Getting sick of the constant complaints while the real issue lies in the so called "Balance Patch" that was recently released making DPS useless, making glass even more glassy and making Condi OP to extreme toxic levels.

Yet here we are bikkering about stealth again...

[UNOwen.7132]

@Yasai.3549 said:Sigh.Problem with Stealth isn't how long it can last anymore.Problem with Stealth is how abusive it is by THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.

Because its the only profession that can stay in stealth for long without giving away its position, like Scrapper with Stealth Gyro? The problem is still how long it lasts.

Look at Mesmer and Engi : they both have Stealth skills, but they aren't as abusive towards it as THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.They use it in their kit, they use it to survive, but they do not outright spam it just to avoid taking retaliation, rather they can't.

Engineers stealth is extremely limited. Engineers instant burst is also limited. Mesmer, well when power burst was a good build, it was the exact same problem with stealth. It would sneak up on you and then instantly explode you before you could even react.

THAT SINGLE PROFESSION not only has the ability to reapply Stealth on demand, anytime, anywhere, they have multiple utilities and traits that also apply stealth, and an Elite which counters the counter to Stealth.

And yet, the best thieves avoid using stealth in-combat. Its simply not good. Even Deadeye simply uses Stealth to enable DJ, which it uses ASAP to drop stealth. Same thing with Shadow Meld. Nerfing in-combat stealth is stupid, because its not the problem (note: I would prefer if Deadeye was reworked to not rely on stealth as much tbh. Its not effective, and its not that interesting. Rifle should also lose kneel because its completely useless in PvP and WvW).

All nerfs to stealth should not be blanketed to affect all Professions that can Stealth, but should be direct nerfs to THAT SINGLE PROFESSION which is abusing it due to their Profession mechanic.

The nerfs would be aimed at out-of-combat permastealth setting up oneshots. Neither Engineer, nor Mesmer, use those. Limiting the stealth at a certain value would minimally affect those (it would break stealth gyro, but you can give it, and Shadow Refuge, an exception).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

You do realize that being put out of combat does that right and that a thief can abuse stealth to end combat for him and his opponent right?

[aspirine.6852]

Get rid of it. Fixed it..

[Captain Kuro.8937]

Make it so if you stealth for a second time between 20 sec interval , you get slowed by 15% and its keep stacking .That way non-Rev of Thieves, at some point can easily reach the Deadeye easily

[Taobella.6597]

i think i would be happy if anet remove stealth from gryo. and make mass invis 5 people. i am all for stealth builds but stealthing a zergs is dumb.

[Virdo.1540]

Another way to fix stealth would be

Reveals doesnt remove stealth anymore ,but lets the player see invisible enemies.

...reveal isnt an option for counterplay against stealth if reveal can be cleansed.

[kash.9213]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Sigh.Problem with Stealth isn't how long it can last anymore.Problem with Stealth is how abusive it is by

THAT SINGLE PROFESSION

.

Because its the only profession that can stay in stealth for long without giving away its position, like Scrapper with Stealth Gyro? The problem is still how long it lasts.

Look at Mesmer and Engi : they both have Stealth skills, but they aren't as abusive towards it as THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.They use it in their kit, they use it to survive, but they do not outright spam it just to avoid taking retaliation, rather they can't.

Engineers stealth is extremely limited. Engineers instant burst is also limited. Mesmer, well when power burst was a good build, it was the exact same problem with stealth. It would sneak up on you and then instantly explode you before you could even react.

THAT SINGLE PROFESSION not only has the ability to reapply Stealth on demand, anytime, anywhere, they have multiple utilities and traits that also apply stealth, and an Elite which counters the counter to Stealth.

And yet, the best thieves avoid using stealth in-combat. Its simply not good.

Even Deadeye simply uses Stealth to enable DJ, which it uses ASAP to drop stealth

. Same thing with Shadow Meld. Nerfing in-combat stealth is stupid, because its not the problem (note: I would prefer if Deadeye was reworked to not rely on stealth as much tbh. Its not effective, and its not that interesting. Rifle should also lose kneel because its completely useless in PvP and WvW).

All nerfs to stealth should not be blanketed to affect all Professions that can Stealth, but should be direct nerfs to THAT SINGLE PROFESSION which is abusing it due to their Profession mechanic.

The nerfs would be aimed at out-of-combat permastealth setting up oneshots. Neither Engineer, nor Mesmer, use those. Limiting the stealth at a certain value would minimally affect those (it would break stealth gyro, but you can give it, and Shadow Refuge, an exception).

Maybe a little beside the topic but I also refund one Malice using DJ right away and any other mods loaded up around it. Admittedly I'm pretty casual and lazy, I'm just not trying to reset in this game build so I'm trying to pack every second with something that burns or takes health, including defensive skills and traits.

[Sobx.1758]

@"aspirine.6852" said:Get rid of it. Fixed it..

Get rid of the game. Boom, everything's fixed/balanced.Nice definition of "fixing" you have there.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

I'm not sure how the two compare. Short duration strategic stealths exist in this game and are utilized for what they are already, both on thief and on other professions. All what Lan suggests would "delete" is the toxic permastealth gameplay. Thieves would still have a multitude of ways to _re_stealth, they just couldn't camp it indefinitely.

~ Kovu

Once this limitation would take place, anything that requires you to be in stealth for 3+ seconds is impossible. Anything that's doable within 3 seconds is extremely predictable. Using stealth wouldn't give enough of an advantage to justify the traits/skills/combos you invest to get it. So when doing LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE is better then using stealth, you managed to delete it from the game.I don't really care for WvW, the gamemode is a lost cause balancewise, but his suggestion also included pvp where even core ranger relies on comboing 6 seconds of stealth sometimes. I haven't been to WvW in forever, last time I was around for my Gift of Battle, every sentry, towers, castles and random traps on the map kept revealing my character. It's insane how many passive tools there are to fight stealth. Not to mention basicly every class has active reveals aswell. What other mechanic has this much counters out there?

Also the warrior example compares in this way: limiting stealth duration severly limits your options of what you can do. So would losing adren once not giving/taking hits. You either do something within 3 seconds, or you're back to 0. If it sounds super unfair, that's because it is.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

You do realize that being put out of combat does that right and that a thief can abuse stealth to end combat for him and his opponent right?

I'm a plat 2/3 player playing since release. Of course I didn't knew that.

[aspirine.6852]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"aspirine.6852" said:Get rid of it. Fixed it..

Get rid of the game. Boom, everything's fixed/balanced.Nice definition of "fixing" you have there.

Well mine was better than your logic to be honest.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

You do realize that being put out of combat does that right and that a thief can abuse stealth to end combat for him and his opponent right?

I'm a plat 2/3 player playing since release. Of course I didn't knew that.

Really, because it sounded otherwise.

[Sobx.1758]

@aspirine.6852 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@aspirine.6852 said:Get rid of it. Fixed it..

Get rid of the game. Boom, everything's fixed/balanced.Nice definition of "fixing" you have there.

Well mine was better than your logic to be honest.

That was literally the same logic, so no.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

You do realize that being put out of combat does that right and that a thief can abuse stealth to end combat for him and his opponent right?

I'm a plat 2/3 player playing since release. Of course I didn't knew that.

Really, because it sounded otherwise.

I'm not surprised about it. After all, making such a bad suggestion proves you judge things without enough information, misjudgeing someone for the same reason would just fit the pattern. Anyway, detailed explanation why your suggestion is terrible in my response to Kovu above.

Also just to have a constructive part to this post: if you want to fix oneshots from stealth, implement the actual PvP balance in WvW. Stats on normalised amulets, armor is fixed value(given you wear armor at all), no consumables. Suddenly permastealth isn't a problem anymore when everyone can tank the burst 2 times over. If you want to make permastealthing impossible in general, regardless of how effective it is, I can't help you. I would say play other games, but all MMO-s I know have everlasting stealth or no stealth at all.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

You do realize that being put out of combat does that right and that a thief can abuse stealth to end combat for him and his opponent right?

I'm a plat 2/3 player playing since release. Of course I didn't knew that.

Really, because it sounded otherwise.

I'm not surprised about it. After all, making such a bad suggestion proves you judge things without enough information, misjudgeing someone for the same reason would just fit the pattern. Anyway, detailed explanation why your suggestion is terrible in my response to Kovu above.

Also just to have a constructive part to this post: if you want to fix oneshots from stealth, implement the actual PvP balance in WvW. Stats on normalised amulets, armor is fixed value(given you wear armor at all), no consumables. Suddenly permastealth isn't a problem anymore when everyone can tank the burst 2 times over. If you want to make permastealthing impossible in general, regardless of how effective it is, I can't help you. I would say play other games, but all MMO-s I know have everlasting stealth or no stealth at all.

PvP and WvW are different beasts.

To be honest you sound like one of the players who needs perma stealth. Other thief players have contributed sound ideas to this conversation, because they understand the underlying issue.

[Cuks.8241]

@Bazsi.2734 said:I would say play other games, but all MMO-s I know have everlasting stealth or no stealth at all.

Interesting because i have never played a multiplayer pvp game where you had access to such powerful stealth which is actually invisibility, in combat, without any real downside like slower movement speed and on such a short cooldown and long duration. Oh and available on ranged classes.

Most games that feature stealth and/or invisibility have at least a few of those restrictions. Invisibility in general is very limited by my experience.

[Junkpile.7439]

People still talk about onehits, but nobody even see them anymore. If i onehit somebody it's some soldier rank player who probably have green gear and isn't even lvl60 or some thief who try to play onehit build. Of course you never one hit thief if he know that you are close.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Junkpile.7439 said:People still talk about onehits, but nobody even see them anymore. If i onehit somebody it's some soldier rank player who probably have green gear and isn't even lvl60 or some thief who try to play onehit build. Of course you never one hit thief if he know that you are close.

There are builds still on various classes that still do upwards of +15k, but generally in a glass vs glass matchup.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

That's not fixing steath. That's deleting it from the game.

If you were to play a warrior, how viable could you be if not hitting/getting hit for 3 seconds would take all your adrenaline away?

You do realize that being put out of combat does that right and that a thief can abuse stealth to end combat for him and his opponent right?

I'm a plat 2/3 player playing since release. Of course I didn't knew that.

Really, because it sounded otherwise.

I'm not surprised about it. After all, making such a bad suggestion proves you judge things without enough information, misjudgeing someone for the same reason would just fit the pattern. Anyway, detailed explanation why your suggestion is terrible in my response to Kovu above.

Also just to have a constructive part to this post: if you want to fix oneshots from stealth, implement the actual PvP balance in WvW. Stats on normalised amulets, armor is fixed value(given you wear armor at all), no consumables. Suddenly permastealth isn't a problem anymore when everyone can tank the burst 2 times over. If you want to make permastealthing impossible in general, regardless of how effective it is, I can't help you. I would say play other games, but all MMO-s I know have everlasting stealth or no stealth at all.

PvP and WvW are different beasts.

Yet you suggested the same changes to both, that was my initial problem.

To be honest you sound like one of the players who needs perma stealth. Other thief players have contributed sound ideas to this conversation, because they understand the underlying issue.

The last few weeks I played mostly elementalist, necromancer, ranger. All permastealth of course. However, permastealth holosmith and core guardian are also in my history, it comes really handy when capturing points.I'm not a thief player, I'm just a player. If you want to be good at the game, you need knowledge about all classes. I learn the best by doing, so I play most if not all of the builds that come and go with the shifting metas. Also none of this has anything to do with how the game should be. Even if I only played one specific deadeye build that never leaves stealth, that doesn't make your initial suggestion any better or worse.

Debunk something of what I've said or concede that it's not the way to go. Trying to tilt me won't make A-net any more likely to implement your idea.

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:I would say play other games, but all MMO-s I know have everlasting stealth or no stealth at all.

Interesting because i have never played a multiplayer pvp game where you had access to such powerful stealth which is actually invisibility, in combat, without any real downside like slower movement speed and on such a short cooldown and long duration. Oh and available on ranged classes.

Most games that feature stealth and/or invisibility have at least a few of those restrictions. Invisibility in general is very limited by my experience.

And I also havent played a game where maintaining stealth required such an investment. Have you played a stealth heavy build before? You seriously hamper your offensive capabilites by stacking up on stealth traits and utilities(compare it to a defenseless full glass cannon thief/mesmer, your damage is almost halved). Also you cannot contest any capture point(less important in WvW, total dealbreaker in actual PvP though).So the thing is, it does have downsides, you can force them to show by playing for objectives. "Short cooldown" - makes no sense. How do you put a cooldown on blasting a smokefield? "Long duration" - 3 seconds for each leap/blast/untraited utility, guess our perception of time differs quite a bit. It might be a long time while waiting for your inevitable death, after all when "the enemy invisible what can I possibly do now" kicks in, whatever happens after is upsetting and unfair and nerf it REEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:I would say play other games, but all MMO-s I know have everlasting stealth or no stealth at all.

Interesting because i have never played a multiplayer pvp game where you had access to such powerful stealth which is actually invisibility, in combat, without any real downside like slower movement speed and on such a short cooldown and long duration. Oh and available on ranged classes.

Really? Ive seen a lot of them. Hell, if anything some of the ones Ive seen have fewer downsides than GW2s stealth, since they lack such things as cleave on autoattacks. In-combat stealth in GW2 is bad. The problem is out of combat stealth, and well, what multiplayer pvp game doesnt have it, sadly? But its also ways the issue, not in-combat stealth.

Most games that feature stealth and/or invisibility have at least a few of those restrictions. Invisibility in general is very limited by my experience.

Hardly. I can think of few multiplayer pvp games that have no stealth at all.

[Cuks.8241]

No stealth games are not in question. There is no stealth balance there.And really what we talk about here is invisibility, stealth is usually a term for states where the enemy is less visible, can't be targeted or silent. I don't know where all these no restriction stealth games are because I don't know any.

Anyway I am not even saying it is unbalanced, it's just bad and annoying design. And I see posts how there are many games like this one regarding stealth but I never encountered one.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Cuks.8241 said:No stealth games are not in question. There is no stealth balance there.And really what we talk about here is invisibility, stealth is usually a term for states where the enemy is less visible, can't be targeted or silent. I don't know where all these no restriction stealth games are because I don't know any.

There are no multiplayer stealth games. And yes, thats what stealth means. Its invisibility. Its synonymous. Anyway, just about every MOBA, multiple shooters, several MMOs, even one or two fighting games all have that.

Anyway I am not even saying it is unbalanced, it's just bad and annoying design. And I see posts how there are many games like this one regarding stealth but I never encountered one.

Then youve just not played many multiplayer games. I cant think of many that dont have it, and theyre all shooters. That might eventually get it anyway.