Is heart of thorns meant to feel this hard as a new player?

[mindcircus.1506]

While I agree with what you wrote, you lost me with this

@"voltaicbore.8012" said:As for why I believe this stunted GW2's potential, I admittedly don't have an objectively measurable basis for that. I just get the feeling that a game that enables so much of its playerbase to just be bad at the game itself runs the risk of retaining players with a shallower attachment to the game,There is a very dedicated group of people who argue against any form of difficulty in this game. A lot of these people are self-professed "low skill" players and for whatever reason (be they personal, psychological and in many cases physical) do not want the difficulty to progress beyond that of the personal story. Some present the "I just want to chill out and enjoy the world, I don't need a second job" argument, while others may suffer from some impairment of motor skills.I will question a lot about the people who present these arguments but I will not question their attachment to the game.Much of what comes across as tantrums over the game being too hard comes from a place where the player sees a barrier from engaging with part of the game world. That barrier, whether real or imagined, creates an enormous frustration. That frustration gets vented at the developers as being somehow "out of touch with what players want" and even at times accusations of sadism. That frustration also gets vented against the players who can engage with the parts of the game they cannot out of avarice.

But if they weren't attached to the game, they wouldn't be here venting on the forums as they do.Some of them are day one veterans who have monogamed Guild Wars 2 since beta. I certainly wouldn't call it an issue of shallow attachment.

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:evidently not, since i blew all my cash on ONE character, WITHOUT ANY PROGRESSand if it was a new class, then i would have the ENTIRE GAME to gear upi could beat the old content with my old build too, that doesnt help me in the new content at allthere is a reason why NO other mmos are doing it this way

Really? So, WoW doesn't release punishingly difficult open world zones in their expansions, which players mostly need to group up to achieve anything significant? Oh, yes they do! And how do you get around that? Well, in WoW they have a gear treadmill design, so you just play and earn better gear until you can overpower the enemies on the map. GW2 takes a different approach. Instead of outgearing the content passively via stats, you unlock new skills which help you handle the increased difficulty.

I don't know where you are getting this idea that other games you get to endgame and that's the end. You have reached maximum power and can defeat everything with ease! Congratulations! What other MMOs are you playing?

Edit: Oh, I did want to mention I had an idea in an unrelated thread regarding the design of elite specs vs. core specs. The long and short of it is that anything you add to core specs is also available to elite specs, but not the other way around. So, I thought, why not add new trait lines which are essentially elite specs (exclusive weapon unlock, utility skill set, and trait line) that are available to core builds only?

I mention this because it would address your complaint about having to unlock more powerful skills at endgame rather than learning your class earlier on.

but wow lets me get some levels and gear in other zones too, i can buff up my very own character to meet those challengesand IF they want me to go up against some demigod, they usually give me a simple, well explained mechanic to deal with itcurrently playing DCUO, STO, and little APB

[mizaru.1385]

Yes! And thats the reason why i went to PoF first. Its alot more digestable. Once u get ur mounts, HoT becomes alot more tamable.

[Maikimaik.1974]

I feel like people are massively exaggerating the difficulty of HoT.No, there wasn't a mass exodus because it was too hard.No, you don't get steamrolled by every single mob out there.No, most people propably weren't unhappy with the difficulty, I don't think there's any reliable data on that. Most likely a few people went to the forums to complain, while most other people either tried to improve themselves or started doing content in groups. You know, like in an MMO.

Hero points are hard, no question. Because they're meant to be group content.They already got nerved and many of them are now soloable.

I don't understand this attitude of demanding hard content to be easier and easy content to be harder. Unless it's massively overtuned, it is propably meant to be a challange. It's not like there's nothing else to do.

[coso.9173]

@FitzChevalerie.1035 said:Always see people talking about raptors but honestly, never had a problem with them. they are 1-2 hit mobs. What's the deal ?

Probably depends in the class. As a thief, pre daredevil, they were deadly. You don't have many spammable aoes and they can literally kill you in less than 2 seconds. Now with staff #5i kill them in just one second, before they kill me. But still you gotta be fast.About the maps, they're some of my favorite ones, with the multilayers and all.

[maddoctor.2738]

@coso.9173 said:Probably depends in the class. As a thief, pre daredevil, they were deadly. You don't have many spammable aoes and they can literally kill you in less than 2 seconds. Now with staff #5i kill them in just one second, before they kill me. But still you gotta be fast.About the maps, they're some of my favorite ones, with the multilayers and all.

Take a pistol off-hand and use Black Powder before engaging raptors, or Smoke Screen. Or use dagger offhand and one shot one with Cloak and Dagger, then one shot a second one with Backstab (or regular attack), repeat a few times, Dagger has enough cleave to kill raptors as they tend to bunch up a lot. Dead raptors as a Thief without Daredevil / Deadeye.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@"Maikimaik.1974" said:I feel like people are massively exaggerating the difficulty of HoT.No, there wasn't a mass exodus because it was too hard.No, you don't get steamrolled by every single mob out there.No, most people propably weren't unhappy with the difficulty, I don't think there's any reliable data on that. Most likely a few people went to the forums to complain, while most other people either tried to improve themselves or started doing content in groups. You know, like in an MMO.

Hero points are hard, no question. Because they're meant to be group content. They've already got nerved and many of them are now soloable.

I don't understand this attitude of demanding hard content to be easier and easy content to be harder. Unless it's massively overturned, it is propably meant to be a challange. It's not like there's nothing else to do.

not only hero points, the entirety of HoT was designed to be played in groups, so anyone complaining that it is hard to solo HoT should maybe rethink why he is solo in a group world first.

many HoT opponents do some ccs and kill off the glasscannons easily and that imo is a really good thing that should be spread along a lot more content. kill all the glasscannons if they can't move properly and teach this community that glasscannon is not a general pve build but an extremely specialised one. sadly in this game glasscannon is the way to go far too often especially because of the dumb aggro system that makes monsters ignore glasscannons while they actually should focus that dangerous target down first.

i can clearly see that soloing HoT as a glasscannon makes you hit a wall and that is a good thing. i can also see newcomers hitting a wall as they aren't prepared for group content since everything before was pretty much solo. if the game would just tell you to take a group to HoT the frustrating "this is too hard for me" becomes a healthy "oh i can't get around this alone, i need to ask somebody" as lots of people in this community are pretty helpful and will come in for help if people just have the courage to ask.

for raptors: either avoid them which is rather easy since they keep running away and only inflict bleeding and no ccs if they hit you or come with a pulsing field + block combo, any raptor group dies fast if you block in the middle of a pulsing field.

[kharmin.7683]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:There is a very dedicated group of people who argue against any form of difficulty in this game. A lot of these people are self-professed "low skill" players and for whatever reason (be they personal, psychological and in many cases physical) do not want the difficulty to progress beyond that of the personal story. Some present the "I just want to chill out and enjoy the world, I don't need a second job" argument, while others may suffer from some impairment of motor skills.I will question a lot about the people who present these arguments but I will not question their attachment to the game.Much of what comes across as tantrums over the game being too hard comes from a place where the player sees a barrier from engaging with part of the game world. That barrier, whether real or imagined, creates an enormous frustration. That frustration gets vented at the developers as being somehow "out of touch with what players want" and even at times accusations of sadism. That frustration also gets vented against the players who can engage with the parts of the game they cannot out of avarice.

But if they weren't attached to the game, they wouldn't be here venting on the forums as they do.Some of them are day one veterans who have monogamed Guild Wars 2 since beta. I certainly wouldn't call it an issue of shallow attachment.Very well said. Thank you for this.

[kharmin.7683]

@Maikimaik.1974 said:I feel like people are massively exaggerating the difficulty of HoT.No, there wasn't a mass exodus because it was too hard.No, you don't get steamrolled by every single mob out there.No, most people propably weren't unhappy with the difficulty, I don't think there's any reliable data on that. Most likely a few people went to the forums to complain, while most other people either tried to improve themselves or started doing content in groups. You know, like in an MMO.

Hero points are hard, no question. Because they're meant to be group content.They already got nerved and many of them are now soloable.

I don't understand this attitude of demanding hard content to be easier and easy content to be harder. Unless it's massively overtuned, it is propably meant to be a challange. It's not like there's nothing else to do.

It almost seems that you and I were around in completely different times. Were you playing HoT pre-nerf? Because practically everything that you are saying didn't happen, did happen.At least, that's how I remember things when HoT launched.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Maikimaik.1974" said:I don't understand this attitude of demanding hard content to be easier and easy content to be harder. Unless it's massively overtuned, it is propably meant to be a challange. It's not like there's nothing else to do.The person who fails at something in this game and chooses not to find people to help or rise to the challenge themselves, but instead turns to the forums to argue for lower difficulty does not do so over an overtuned encounter.There are currently zero overtuned encounters in the game.

This game goes out of it's way to protect the player from the feeling of failure. You can show up at a world boss and autoattack the boss a few times, get immediately smoked, not bother to WP, beg for a rez and still get the same reward as the half dozen people who actually carried the encounter.You were not given any kind of feedback from the game that indicated poor play...hell if it happened at Tequatl you might even get an ascended chest.

It's no small wonder then that when the same player goes from "beating the elder dragon of death" by pressing 1 to getting savaged by 5 pocket raptors that they think the problem is with the game. They've never had to pass a DPS check, and every single boss they have ever fought could be beaten in a battle of attrition. Imagine that player who goes from Frostgorge Sound to Verdant Brink.Both are, on the surface, level 80 content.

There isn't a class in this game that doesn't have a tool or two to deal with pocket raptors efficiently but in this very thread we see examples of this "The problem isnt me" mentality. It's easier for the player's ego to maintain the fantasy that they are amazing and that the developers are somehow at fault than admit that they didn't know about a skill they could have slotted on their bar at any moment while out of combat, or that they have put on gear that doesn't leverage their skills and traits....or that the dodge tutorial they skipped past in Queensdale might have actually been relevant.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:....or that the dodge tutorial they skipped past in Queensdale might have actually been relevant.

the "dodge" tutorial where you can run circles on your mount and ignore the mines, spikes or whatever your species uses?

a dodge tutorial with a static barrier is useless, there needs to be an NPC throwing something at you at a random frequence and you dodge 3 times you get your gift. that is a dodge tutorial.

[mindcircus.1506]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:....or that the dodge tutorial they skipped past in Queensdale might have actually been relevant.

the "dodge" tutorial where you can run circles on your mount and ignore the mines, spikes or whatever your species uses?

a dodge tutorial with a static barrier is useless, there needs to be an NPC throwing something at you at a random frequence and you dodge 3 times you get your gift. that is a dodge tutorial.What you don't seem to understand is that regardless of the quality of the dodge tutorial, it is skippable. They could make the tutorial as perfect as they wanted, but as long as the player can opt out the vast majority will ignore it and the problem will persist.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:....or that the dodge tutorial they skipped past in Queensdale might have actually been relevant.

the "dodge" tutorial where you can run circles on your mount and ignore the mines, spikes or whatever your species uses?

a dodge tutorial with a static barrier is useless, there needs to be an NPC throwing something at you at a random frequence and you dodge 3 times you get your gift. that is a dodge tutorial.What you don't seem to understand is that regardless of the quality of the dodge tutorial, it is skippable. They could make the tutorial as perfect as they wanted, but as long as the player can opt out the vast majority will ignore it and the problem will persist.

true that, it has to be in some story instance then. you learn to use your mounts to a certain degree in the PoF story (like raptor in the vabbi story race), so why not basic movement in the personal story?

[mindcircus.1506]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:....or that the dodge tutorial they skipped past in Queensdale might have actually been relevant.

the "dodge" tutorial where you can run circles on your mount and ignore the mines, spikes or whatever your species uses?

a dodge tutorial with a static barrier is useless, there needs to be an NPC throwing something at you at a random frequence and you dodge 3 times you get your gift. that is a dodge tutorial.What you don't seem to understand is that regardless of the quality of the dodge tutorial, it is skippable. They could make the tutorial as perfect as they wanted, but as long as the player can opt out the vast majority will ignore it and the problem will persist.

true that, it has to be in some story instance then. you learn to use your mounts to a certain degree in the PoF story (like raptor in the vabbi story race), so why not basic movement in the personal story?Sure.... let's live in a world where a dodge or movement tutorial in the personal story...."Hey I just got the expansions, do I have to do the personal story to get my mounts?""Naw... just boost to 80, do the first story mission of HoT for your glider and then start PoF for your mounts."

You cannot gate progress behind skill checks with the current business model of this game.

[Kastagir.2146]

@Comus.7365 said:i think most people being smug about playing through it don't consider that a fresh player doing it now will be in a mix of blue,green,yellow and most likely a rabid or two piece of gear. they don't have access to best in slot exotics nor ascended gear. so yeah for the rest of us it might be a breeze but certainly not them.

also they're unlocking their first elite spec.

This is why I'm starting to dislike the player base here. These smug elitist that just post to insult anyone that rightfully complains about the over the top difficulty of the expansion content. I got a new character to level 80 and got the exotic gear and was still having a blast doing map completions in the base world. Then I tried to do POF content and couldn't believe how OP the mobs were compared to the base game. In any other MMO, this would be called unbalanced content. All I did was die over and over. And now I'm being told I have to play differently than I did through 80 levels of content. What I load of BS. The expansions in this game are not meant for most players just the hardcore elite snubs.

[kharmin.7683]

How long have you played? Most vets played for years and learned the mechanics of their classes and knew how better to handle things in the expansions due to experience.

[knite.1542]

It's not very hard. Chances are you either have a bad build, bad gear, or you just need to practice your class more. (Or a combination of all of those.)

Maybe you could try a different class as well. Some classes definitely have an easier time than others. Necromancer for example, would probably much easier for most people to do this content on than elementalist.

If all else fails though, you could definitely try to find people to help you.

Good luck!

Edit: one more thing. Don't be afraid to change your build (weapons/utilities ect) for the situation. A lot of people get into a one build mindset and try to clear any and all encounters without ever changing what they are doing. Expirement!

[mindcircus.1506]

@"wmtyrance.3571" said:This is why I'm starting to dislike the player base here. These smug elitist that just post to insult anyone that rightfully complains about the over the top difficulty of the expansion content. I got a new character to level 80 and got the exotic gear and was still having a blast doing map completions in the base world. Then I tried to do POF content and couldn't believe how OP the mobs were compared to the base game. In any other MMO, this would be called unbalanced content.This can and does happen in every other MMO.

The difference is that (just about) every other MMO will offer you a path to trivialize the content by outgearing it. It wouldn't be called "unbalanced content" it would be called "part of gear progression".In GW2, providing you are in exotics, if that mob is repeatedly smoking you, you can adapt to overcome. Change your build, tune your stats, play better.In most other MMOs you can go do your grindy grinders and get better gear so the mob becomes inconsequential.

Same mechanic everywhere in every MMO. Mobs get tougher as you progress. Guild Wars 2 just doesnt allow you to mitigate the challenge with gear score.

[Cuks.8241]

I think many here underestimate what the average player can do. I don't think average player has issues with Hot or Pof or really any open world or story content. Some parts might be difficult for an average player and it is not average to solo Hot champs but in general Hot is just fine.

I also think an average players accepts that some difficulty needs to be overcome and actually likes it because this is after all a game and that is kinda the point of games.

I also think Anet is very well aware by now what an average player can do and is releasing content based on that. Easier strikes and Drakkar are aimed at the average player. Can you really say that Hot is above in difficulty compared to that?

I'm sorry but if someone never makes it above 50g or has difficulty traversing Verdant Brink (not on day 1 but with some time and effort) he is not average. He is either way below average in mechanical skill or general knowledge of the game (maybe boosting to 80 and trying Hot on day 1) or is just a big old entitled whiner. In the end this is a game and some effort is needed to beat it.

Also I don't know what other mmorpg you played but GW2 is on the easy side compared to other mmorpgs. It is a bit more action platform though so that might be the difference.

[Comus.7365]

@Cuks.8241 said:I think many here underestimate what the average player can do. I don't think average player has issues with Hot or Pof or really any open world or story content. Some parts might be difficult for an average player and it is not average to solo Hot champs but in general Hot is just fine.

I also think an average players accepts that some difficulty needs to be overcome and actually likes it because this is after all a game and that is kinda the point of games.

I also think Anet is very well aware by now what an average player can do and is releasing content based on that. Easier strikes and Drakkar are aimed at the average player. Can you really say that Hot is above in difficulty compared to that?

I'm sorry but if someone never makes it above 50g or has difficulty traversing Verdant Brink (not on day 1 but with some time and effort) he is not average. He is either way below average in mechanical skill or general knowledge of the game (maybe boosting to 80 and trying Hot on day 1) or is just a big old entitled whiner. In the end this is a game and some effort is needed to beat it.

Also I don't know what other mmorpg you played but GW2 is on the easy side compared to other mmorpgs. It is a bit more action platform though so that might be the difference.

i think the difference lies in the story telling bit. most games you can just blaze through it without much effert and then you get to the challenge. this ones trying to force the challenge on you before you even bother to care about it.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Cuks.8241" said:Also I don't know what other mmorpg you played but GW2 is on the easy side compared to other mmorpgs. It is a bit more action platform though so that might be the difference.In some ways it certainly is easier for sure.But in some very core ways, the flow and speed of combat, the need for effective platforming, the lack of hand holding when it comes to gear, the non-linear endgame, the lack of clear defined group roles... this game is significantly more difficult and fast paced than most other MMOs and it's open approach to the content once you reach the cap can be super overwhelming.You can learn 90% of what you need to learn about SWTOR's combat in the first day, the rest is just properly managing cooldowns on new skills as you learn them. DCUO's combat is understood completely in the first couple of hours, it's simple and arcadey and your role in a team is set via a dropdown menu. City of Heroes used to have you in a really decent spot for understanding your character by about level 32. World of Warcraft allows you to outgear pretty much any challenge eventually.But GW2 with it's boon play and counter play, it's twitchy combat, it's highly convoluted crafting systems, it's reliance on one-shot boss hits and it's gear system that is never completely tutorialized anywhere is significantly different from other games in the genre. It's ridiculously easy to gimp your toon in GW2 in some pretty fundamental ways.

While the story content and core open world is largely a cakewalk for even the poorest geared player, Verdant Brink is indeed tough. The game is harder than most other MMOs until you "get it" and veterans do no favors to anyone ignoring this fact.

[Black Storm.6974]

HoT was announced as a dangerous place that needs to be explored with a group, and now many experienced players can even easily explore it alone.

I think Guild Wars 2 can be really difficult to learn at the beginning.There are many buffs and debuffs, and things to learn about the enemies.There are many different combination of stats, there are many traits and skills. Most people need a lot of time to learn and start combining them well, but this can be really important when playing without a group through HoT. Learn to properly use these abilities is another challenge.

It is easy to make a “mistake” that cause a character to be really weak, but these mistakes are also easy to correct with proper knowledge.

The “problem”, to me, seems how hard is to “learn the game”.

[Dayra.7405]

@"Black Storm.6974" said:The problem, to me, seems how hard is to “learn the game”.

It's more "How hard it is to learn it in 3 weeks ;) , as this is the time when new player now latestly hit HoT, some even hit it on day 3 or so by using their booster.

[Tails.9372]

change your buildBut this advice only goes so far as long as "changing your build" doesn't require the player to change their underlying playstyle. Asking the player to optimize their build for their given weapon set is one thing and should be something every player is expected to do if they want to tackle more difficult content but let's not act as if there aren't any issues with the weapon sets themselves. Some of them even punish the players for doing the break bars. If your already running a build optimized for your weapon set and it still fails to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at then it's on A-Net to fix these issues because at this point they're the only ones who can. For these cases telling people to just "change their build" is nothing but ignorance because you ignore one of the main reasons why players play the game to begin with.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Tails.9372" said:

change your buildBut this advice only goes so far as long as "changing your build" doesn't require the player to change their underlying playstyle. Asking the player to optimize their build for their given weapon set is one thing and should be something every player is expected to do if they want to tackle more difficult content but let's not act as if there aren't any issues with the weapon sets themselves. Some of them even punish the players for doing the break bars. If your already running a build optimized for your weapon set and it still fails to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at then it's on A-Net to fix these issues because at this point they're the only ones who can. For these cases telling people to just "change their build" is nothing but ignorance because you ignore one of the main reasons why players play the the game to begin with.Changing your build, adapting to new play styles is quite simply "part of the game" It is as integral to your progression as successfully completing mechanics.This is why you are able and encouraged to make changes without cost any time you are out of combat.The developers encourage and facilitate this. The game is balanced around it. It's why the timer on Eater of Souls' breakbar is how it is. It's why there's a platform over the battle area in Hearts and Minds, it's why the game tells you if you have an unselected trait line, it's why we have build templates.

This clinging to things that don't work "because it's my playstyle" and blaming the developers if you have to make an (easily reversible) trait change to adapt situationally is a self imposed limit. All the rhetoric and insults you wish to throw about other people's "ignorance" does not change this.It's no different than someone who doesn't understand how a knight moves on a chess board and loudly proclaims that the problem is with the game and not their understanding.