Pure "Tank" builds should not be allowed

[Justine.6351]

When you dunk power damage across the board and people realize the best way to now kill someone is to gang up on the target suddenly zerker builds are irrelevant. When people aren't playing zerker builds suddenly tanky players are more tanky. Who would have thought...

[Shiyo.3578]

I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

"People disagree with my inherently subjective post"

"I guess they can't read"

Lol. State of forms in 2020.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Mikhael.2391 said:but boon strip on unblocable interrupt is so kitten that until this day I can only think the people behind the game never properly played their game.

Are you hating on BT, which thief pretty much doesn't even run anymore on any build anymore, as the reason for why the matchup is weak, or do you just not understand thief and its skills at all?

Plus RShroud and SA are instant cast, as is Suffer, which can translate the immob from IS out and allow one to dodge the PW, and the PW build was nerfed, too.You don't need channeled casts to take a thief down. Really just is RSAA, GS5, and the blind field to deny major bombs.

If you're not running SA or Suffer on reaper, or are dying to two or fewer PW's, you're messing up majorly somewhere.

I've taught a lot of reapers how to curbstomp thief players with necro, particularly with reaper, which has a surprising amount of instant or fast-cast and interruptable abilities. Eremite, who's in this very thread, is one of them.

Given that your PW build can't possibly do everything you said above at once, I sincerely doubt your honesty. I doubt you've actually played one at all.Prove me wrong. I'd actually like to duel you in OS. I'm on blue side this week.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

I kill players even using cleric stats on WVW....My groups melts other groupsOther groups have dps to kill uswe all play tanky gear.

I dont know what ur doying whileplaying this game, but alot of players that were being carried with damage output are having issue to kill (i actually could solo 5 players, now i cant and thats perfectly fine since i was truly being carried...).

Wich class are u playing, stats etc and wich tanky classes are u having prob, i assume scrappers / warriors / fb???In terms of larger compositions 7+ one just need to add scourges and reapers that the group will become "tanky" and gain high damage to burst in 2 seconds every one near the "call targeted" zone/cleaving area .

We need some clue to understand what i so tanky about what ur talking about, if no clues on class and build or target were given since most have no dificult to kill even on sturdier gear, this post look like a l2adapt issue, so some info for understanting would be apreciated.

Note: there are no pure tanks on this game, if that happens it is something that m8 be some support class that is overperfming.

[Clownmug.8357]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

It's kind of a vague title though. What's a pure "tank" and why is tank in quotations? Can't tell if you're talking about support builds with minstrel gear or stuff like core signet necros and fire weavers.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

It's kind of a vague title though. What's a pure "tank" and why is tank in quotations? Can't tell if you're talking about support builds with minstrel gear or stuff like core signet necros and fire weavers.

if its a weaver the current deamon rev can hold 2, imo deamon is a direct counters to eles and their elites.classes that condi spam can kill classes with quite some condi cleanses, it isnt that hard to overwhelm and bait target to condi cleanse most of the time.

[Mikhael.2391]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:but boon strip on unblocable interrupt is so kitten that until this day I can only think the people behind the game never properly played their game.

Are you hating on BT, which thief pretty much doesn't even run anymore on any build anymore, as the reason for why the matchup is weak, or do you just not understand thief and its skills at all?

Plus RShroud and SA are instant cast, as is Suffer, which can translate the immob from IS out and allow one to dodge the PW, and the PW build was nerfed, too.You don't need channeled casts to take a thief down. Really just is RSAA, GS5, and the blind field to deny major bombs.

If you're not running SA or Suffer on reaper, or are dying to two or fewer PW's, you're messing up majorly somewhere.

I've taught a lot of reapers how to curbstomp thief players with necro, particularly with reaper, which has a surprising amount of instant or fast-cast and interruptable abilities. Eremite, who's in this very thread, is one of them.

Given that your PW build can't possibly do everything you said above at once, I sincerely doubt your honesty. I doubt you've actually played one at all.Prove me wrong. I'd actually like to duel you in OS. I'm on blue side this week.

sure. you against gandara? send me an email later at night and we do it since you doubt so much.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

But haven't you realized the title is the most important part of any piece of writing? It's the job of the writer to catch the audience's attention.

A good title is needed to bring the proper flow of a discussion. You can't assume people are psychic and know what you want to discuss, or that they even care. In this day and age, the world moves fast and making a good first impression is needed. Your average reader will pay the most attention to the first words and then a lot less on the succeeding sentences. Once you get past that, it doesn't really matter what you type because nobody will read it. For example, did you know that there are 23.7 billion chickens in the world? Of course not, because by this point, nobody is reading this crap.

tl;dr That's on you.

[jsp.6912]

full defensive stat need to be remove on wvw(trailblazer, minstrel, giver, nomade...)this kind of stat carry really hard a lot of players

[Aeolus.3615]

@"jsp.6912" said:full defensive stat need to be remove on wvw(trailblazer, minstrel, giver, nomade...)this kind of stat carry really hard a lot of players

IDK, i dont mind those stats, but imo some builds m8 be gaining way more sustain "than intended" when clustering same classes, maybe make class traits similiar to revenant with the designs of use those stats to help other more than themselves, this is what support classes and controllers should be.

[ASP.8093]

@"jsp.6912" said:full defensive stat need to be remove on wvw(trailblazer, minstrel, giver, nomade...)this kind of stat carry really hard a lot of players

You listed three sets of stats used by support characters who have near zero personal DPS output, and one set of stats that's popular with tedious condi bunker builds. Seems kinda pointless to talk about a Firebrand or Scrapper being "carried" by Minstrel gear when it's a whole interleaved team comp that does the work. You don't exactly see them trying to solo-cap camps in the wild.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

Pure Damage builds should not be allowed.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such highly mobile and bursty builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people that you just instantly burst kill, and they can just burst kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of 1 shots.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

@"Shiyo.3578" said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Exactly

Berserker, Assassin, Marauder etc are all so unfun to fight, I just get 100-0 in a few seconds, no counterplay possible even, and even if i win it was over in a second or two

And you are right....Which is why just a few months back we had a HUGE power reduction, though as I said back before it released, that sustain needed to be looked at just as much, as the idea was, or should have been a reduction in BURST ability, that is the "1 shot" combo builds, it shouldn't have have been to increase the overall TTK. I know more than a few who didn't agree with me, however I think over all TTK was fine before the patch, it was outliers that if you did the rotation right, you were going to get a down. However, they did not look at all the aspects of sustain and here we are.

My view is from 1vs1 or small scale, where I have run across some builds that can face tank all of my bursts, and I don't mean blocking or dodging anything, stuff like this just like the one shot combo builds, have no place in the game. Most of these you can run from, but in the end are just annoying, there is one tank engi from a server we were just matched with who would tap keeps all day long, he would run from me and just eat everything I hit him with even after going full glass, he would heal right through it, if you turned around to leave he would follow you to keep you in combat, I fought him while fighting a thief as well and he thought it was his chance and went all in to try and kill me, this was the lowest I got him, but as soon as I killed the thief, he went back into full defense mode and back to 80% HP.

Now, I am not the best player, and I know some higher burst pressure builds that probably could kill him, though that leaves 80-90% of builds out of the running. I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

[Shiyo.3578]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

This is basically what I'm saying. "Stalemate" troll builds that can't kill anything but cannot be killed before they hold W into a fortification makes WvW not enjoyable.

These type of builds were INTENTIONALLY removed from PvP for being incredibly unfun, it's about time WvW gets the same treatment.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

But haven't you realized the title is the most important part of any piece of writing? It's the job of the writer to catch the audience's attention.

A good title is needed to bring the proper flow of a discussion. You can't assume people are psychic and know what you want to discuss, or that they even care. In this day and age, the world moved blah blah blah

tl;dr That's on you.

This could have been a great post, if only it had mentioned chickens.

[Mikhael.2391]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

Pure Damage builds should not be allowed.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such highly mobile and bursty builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people that you just instantly burst kill, and they can just burst kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of 1 shots.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

@"Shiyo.3578" said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Exactly

Berserker, Assassin, Marauder etc are all so unfun to fight, I just get 100-0 in a few seconds, no counterplay possible even, and even if i win it was over in a second or two

And you are right....Which is why just a few months back we had a HUGE power reduction, though as I said back before it released, that sustain needed to be looked at just as much, as the idea was, or should have been a reduction in BURST ability, that is the "1 shot" combo builds, it shouldn't have have been to increase the overall TTK. I know more than a few who didn't agree with me, however I think over all TTK was fine before the patch, it was outliers that if you did the rotation right, you were going to get a down. However, they did not look at all the aspects of sustain and here we are.

My view is from 1vs1 or small scale, where I have run across some builds that can face tank all of my bursts, and I don't mean blocking or dodging anything, stuff like this just like the one shot combo builds, have no place in the game. Most of these you can run from, but in the end are just annoying, there is one tank engi from a server we were just matched with who would tap keeps all day long, he would run from me and just eat everything I hit him with even after going full glass, he would heal right through it, if you turned around to leave he would follow you to keep you in combat, I fought him while fighting a thief as well and he thought it was his chance and went all in to try and kill me, this was the lowest I got him, but as soon as I killed the thief, he went back into full defense mode and back to 80% HP.

Now, I am not the best player, and I know some higher burst pressure builds that probably could kill him, though that leaves 80-90% of builds out of the running. I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

And what about troll build with lots sustain through dodges evades blocks teleports and stealth? if TTK is to be looked at then CC needs to be looked at the exact same time. or you will end up having classes stunlock you and constant interrupts to fetch and faster again returning with same problem.

[Mikhael.2391]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

This is basically what I'm saying. "Stalemate" troll builds that can't kill anything but cannot be killed before they hold W into a fortification makes WvW not enjoyable.

These type of builds were INTENTIONALLY removed from PvP for being incredibly unfun, it's about time WvW gets the same treatment.

And stalemate builds that can kill also on top of being annoying and unkillable?

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

This is basically what I'm saying. "Stalemate" troll builds that can't kill anything but cannot be killed before they hold W into a fortification makes WvW not enjoyable.

These type of builds were INTENTIONALLY removed from PvP for being incredibly unfun, it's about time WvW gets the same treatment.

Just to be clear, I am fine with tank builds that are more or less "unkillable" IF that is from skilled game play and active counters, however builds that can face tank and still survive a full glass burst and heal through it are just troll. Though people who die to them are just, well, bad.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Mikhael.2391 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

Pure Damage builds should not be allowed.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such highly mobile and bursty builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people that you just instantly burst kill, and they can just burst kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of 1 shots.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

@"Shiyo.3578" said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Exactly

Berserker, Assassin, Marauder etc are all so unfun to fight, I just get 100-0 in a few seconds, no counterplay possible even, and even if i win it was over in a second or two

And you are right....Which is why just a few months back we had a HUGE power reduction, though as I said back before it released, that sustain needed to be looked at just as much, as the idea was, or should have been a reduction in BURST ability, that is the "1 shot" combo builds, it shouldn't have have been to increase the overall TTK. I know more than a few who didn't agree with me, however I think over all TTK was fine before the patch, it was outliers that if you did the rotation right, you were going to get a down. However, they did not look at all the aspects of sustain and here we are.

My view is from 1vs1 or small scale, where I have run across some builds that can face tank all of my bursts, and I don't mean blocking or dodging anything, stuff like this just like the one shot combo builds, have no place in the game. Most of these you can run from, but in the end are just annoying, there is one tank engi from a server we were just matched with who would tap keeps all day long, he would run from me and just eat everything I hit him with even after going full glass, he would heal right through it, if you turned around to leave he would follow you to keep you in combat, I fought him while fighting a thief as well and he thought it was his chance and went all in to try and kill me, this was the lowest I got him, but as soon as I killed the thief, he went back into full defense mode and back to 80% HP.

Now, I am not the best player, and I know some higher burst pressure builds that probably could kill him, though that leaves 80-90% of builds out of the running. I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

And what about troll build with lots sustain through dodges evades blocks teleports and stealth? if TTK is to be looked at then CC needs to be looked at the exact same time. or you will end up having classes stunlock you and constant interrupts to fetch and faster again returning with same problem.

That depends, I don't like sweeping statements, troll near perm stealth builds that only keep you in combat so they can reset over and over to hope and catch you on CD? No, I don't think they should be in the game, however I can't remember the last time I have died to one, so I don't consider them OP, but troll. In most cases the only kills they get are noobs, as they are low risk high reward. Often times when they attack me, after the first rotation fails, they leave, the few who do stick around die, I have a 95% win rate vs thief, outside of 1vs2 fights....It's been a while since I have lost to one. Yet at the same time, if I know what build they are running, I will avoid the fight because it's annoying. Though I think reveal on skill use rather than hit would almost fully solve this.

I do think (as I said before the patch) that stealth and mobility would be more powerful after the dmg reduction and CD changes, not sure if you agree, however I believe they are much more valuable now.

I also do agree some CC needs to be looked at, though again, outside of outnumbered fights, I don't find it much of a problem.

[Mikhael.2391]

That depends, I don't like sweeping statements, troll near perm stealth builds that only keep you in combat so they can reset over and over to hope and catch you on CD? No, I don't think they should be in the game, however I can't remember the last time I have died to one, so I don't consider them OP, but troll. In most cases the only kills they get are noobs, as they are low risk high reward. Often times when they attack me, after the first rotation fails, they leave, the few who do stick around die, I have a 95% win rate vs thief, outside of 1vs2 fights....It's been a while since I have lost to one. Yet at the same time, if I know what build they are running, I will avoid the fight because it's annoying. Though I think reveal on skill use rather than hit would almost fully solve this.

I do think (as I said before the patch) that stealth and mobility would be more powerful after the dmg reduction and CD changes, not sure if you agree, however I believe they are much more valuable now.

I also do agree some CC needs to be looked at, though again, outside of outnumbered fights, I don't find it much of a problem.

I agree with most of what you said. Now if I am on my DH there is much better tools to deal with a thief or DE , however if I play on reaper its a one sided fight for the thief profession even if their skill is below mine because of unblockable interrupts that boon strip and gives you a 3cd each time (spammable) their mobility and stealth.

If CC had an ICD which most players that play classes that can stunlock or have access to a lot of them, whine when this is suggested because god forbid it balance the game.

In my mind it makes more sense to have better fights where I use 1 CC and them use something else from the many utilities classes have and then I would use another CC properly timed counting that the other player also is aware of this.

I mean, if I play my warrior and just make necro reaper use the stunlocks the fight is won easy. warrior CC CDs are so low. on my thief is the same, and I am a bad thief.

[AliamRationem.5172]

"The forums":

I don't want...

CondiToughnessVitalityHealing

But I don't like 1 shot meta.

FIX IT!!!

[Swagger.1459]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:I do not believe troll builds are healthy for the game, even if they are not OP at all, as he was never going to kill me, outside of the 1vs2.

This is basically what I'm saying. "Stalemate" troll builds that can't kill anything but cannot be killed before they hold W into a fortification makes WvW not enjoyable.

These type of builds were INTENTIONALLY removed from PvP for being incredibly unfun, it's about time WvW gets the same treatment.

WvW isn’t structured “e-sports” pvp.

What were you dueling anyway? What build were you using during that duel?

[ASP.8093]

The entirety of a WvW match can't be decided by one player's ability to stand on a control pad for 2 minutes.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Mikhael.2391 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:but boon strip on unblocable interrupt is so kitten that until this day I can only think the people behind the game never properly played their game.

Are you hating on BT, which thief pretty much doesn't even run anymore on any build anymore, as the reason for why the matchup is weak, or do you just not understand thief and its skills at all?

Plus RShroud and SA are instant cast, as is Suffer, which can translate the immob from IS out and allow one to dodge the PW, and the PW build was nerfed, too.You don't need channeled casts to take a thief down. Really just is RSAA, GS5, and the blind field to deny major bombs.

If you're not running SA or Suffer on reaper, or are dying to two or fewer PW's, you're messing up majorly somewhere.

I've taught a lot of reapers how to curbstomp thief players with necro, particularly with reaper, which has a surprising amount of instant or fast-cast and interruptable abilities. Eremite, who's in this very thread, is one of them.

Given that your PW build can't possibly do everything you said above at once, I sincerely doubt your honesty. I doubt you've actually played one at all.Prove me wrong. I'd actually like to duel you in OS. I'm on blue side this week.

sure. you against gandara? send me an email later at night and we do it since you doubt so much.

Shame, I'm on FA in NA.

[Shiyo.3578]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Just to be clear, I am fine with tank builds that are more or less "unkillable" IF that is from skilled game play and active counters, however builds that can face tank and still survive a full glass burst and heal through it are just troll. Though people who die to them are just, well, bad.Yeah, same. The issue is passive traits and procs as well as WvW stat combos.