Why doesn't all heals have a baseline of cleansing a condition?

[crepuscular.9047]

I noticed mobs these days are dishing more condis compared to the old days of vanilla Tyria, shouldn't all heals be given a 'cleanse a condition' rather having to pick a specific heal skill for condi cleanse?

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

I think every class has a good way of dealing with condis while maintaining enough dmg to kill bunch of pve trash mobs... it actually depends on what build your using and what are u sacrificing for ur condi cleanse

[Obtena.7952]

I don't understand why anyone would expect such a thing to begin with. Maybe the point is that your heals already mitigate condi damage ...

[Skotlex.7580]

Building without cleanses isn't that different than going full glass without defenses. I like that there's a tradeoff, and I like more that in later content condition cleansing is more useful.

Enemies (specially bosses) could use some more boon generation to make boon removal more desirable as well (though I'd leave that for group events as the majority of classes don't have ready access to boon removal unless you are a spellbreaker or a necromancer).

[Lumikki.1725]

I add one more question here, why doesn't toughness reduse condition damage affect. I do understand why armor doesn't, but while this game treats toughness and armor as same, they really should not be.

In general, they want to handicap our ability defend our self, so that gameplay would not become too much like holy trinity. To make gameplay more challenging they try to invent more ways to kill us. Ignore armor, limit our defence abilties, prevent our ability to do defencive actions and so on. This all because the headless chiken dance has become the only real defence in this kind of gameplay. Headless chiken dance meaning moving and dodging as avoiding totally to enemies damage.

[crepuscular.9047]

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:I think every class has a good way of dealing with condis while maintaining enough dmg to kill bunch of pve trash mobs... it actually depends on what build your using and what are u sacrificing for ur condi cleanse

every class have either a pulse cleanse or/and full cleanse with a heal skill, so I don't see it affect players' choice of another heal over pulse / full cleanse heal

 

 

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't understand why anyone would expect such a thing to begin with. Maybe the point is that your heals already mitigate condi damage ...

what I mean is condi in general, not just damage

[FrostSpectre.4198]

Well, not sure myself of it: they give you choice of less heal and condi-cleanse, high heal + some other bonus and "pulse" heal of some type.

Each heal skill has interaction with specific specializations and "on heal" rune bonuses, gaining extra abilities.In PvP you either give yourself condi-cleanse self-heal and forego support of your allies, or you choose strong self-heal and rely on your allies for extra heals and cleanses.

[Taril.8619]

Heals with condition cleansing, trade off their raw healing potential for that additional utility.

Not to mention that PvP balance was (At least one point) considering cleanses as part of the balance for Conditions for a reason why Conditions bypass Toughness and Protection due to them dealing damage over time and could only be mitigated via cleanses and some runes. As such, it had limited availability to prevent Conditions becoming useless.

It's a similar case for Resistance which was implemented when they changed Conditions to stack as it is a boon that has limited uptime to combat Condition damage.

That said, Sigil of Cleansing exists and is a very effective means of cleansing

[Friday.7864]

Most of the time condis are harmless and you barely encounter them.Other times, on rare occasions, you get like 5 different ones and several stacks of them - at that point all you can do is die. That's my only issue.

[Obtena.7952]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:I think every class has a good way of dealing with condis while maintaining enough dmg to kill bunch of pve trash mobs... it actually depends on what build your using and what are u sacrificing for ur condi cleanse

every class have either a pulse cleanse or/and full cleanse with a heal skill, so I don't see it affect players' choice of another heal over pulse / full cleanse heal

Right ... and you think that's actually a good thing? You don't want available skills to affect your choices? I'm pretty sure that's EXACTLY how it's meant to be.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Lumikki.1725 said:I add one more question here, why doesn't toughness reduse condition damage affect. I do understand why armor doesn't, but while this game treats toughness and armor as same, they really should not be.

In general, they want to handicap our ability defend our self, so that gameplay would not become too much like holy trinity. To make gameplay more challenging they try to invent more ways to kill us. Ignore armor, limit our defence abilties, prevent our ability to do defencive actions and so on. This all because the headless chiken dance has become the only real defence in this kind of gameplay. Headless chiken dance meaning moving and dodging as avoiding totally to enemies damage.

So, you're saying that active avoidance and having to deal with more than one damage type with unique means of countering them is not as good as passively tanking damage from all sources with a toughness stat? If so, I disagree.

[mindcircus.1506]

@crepuscular.9047 said:I noticed mobs these days are dishing more condis compared to the old days of vanilla Tyria, shouldn't all heals be given a 'cleanse a condition' rather having to pick a specific heal skill for condi cleanse?Power creep like this is not healthy for an MMORPG.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Would you also agree that the converse needs to be true: that every power attack should apply a condi?

[Strider Pj.2193]

Or, just use one of the following runes;

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Water

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Nature%27s_Bounty

Each remove a condition when using a heal skill.

Or, do what WvW does and bring Anti Toxin runes.

[Lumikki.1725]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:So, you're saying that active avoidance and having to deal with more than one damage type with unique means of countering them is not as good as passively tanking damage from all sources with a toughness stat? If so, I disagree.

No, I'm saying that having two different way to get damage and one is totally ignoring touchness isn't good. In my opinion touchness should reduce magnitude of both damage types. Notice, I don't mean that armor should reduce condition damage at all, but touchness should. Because touchness as attribute become less usefull if it doesn't do what it should do. This games has many small active defence options, condition removal is just one of many. Even if touchness would reduse condition damage, it doesn't remove it's affects, just adjust it's magnitude. That isn't tanking, because if it would be, then no condition damage based enemies could be tanked now in the game.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Lumikki.1725 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:So, you're saying that active avoidance and having to deal with more than one damage type with unique means of countering them is not as good as passively tanking damage from all sources with a toughness stat? If so, I disagree.

No, I'm saying that having two different way to get damage and one is totally ignoring touchness isn't good. In my opinion touchness should reduce both damage types. Notice, I don't mean that armor should reduce condition damage at all, but touchness should. Because touchness as attribute become less usefull if it doesn't do what it should do. This games has many small active defence options, condition removal is just one of many. Even if touchness would reduse condition damage, it doesn't remove it's affects, just adjust it's magnitude. That isn't tanking, because if it would be, then no condition damage based enemies could be tanked now in the game.

Okay, so the "headless chicken dance" comment is not a sign of your contempt for active avoidance and your desire to "improve" toughness is not a sign that you would prefer passive facetanking in its place?

I think toughness is fine. Disagree? Take a look at the selection of PvP amulets. Toughness is the only stat that is specifically limited. Only 4 amulets have toughness and none as a primary stat. In addition, in both cases where toughness is paired with any other defensive stat, the amulet has reduced stats (e.g. Paladin grants 400 vitality/toughness where a normal 4-stat amulet grants 500 to each minor stat).

If toughness is so lackluster, why is it necessary to place these kinds of restrictions on just this one stat? It's because if you don't, it leads to a bunker meta where players can't kill each other. Toughness is that powerful. Now, if you adjusted everything else about conditions and how we defend ourselves, then the conversation might change. But that would be reinventing the wheel and for what? The basic premise that toughness isn't good enough is simply wrong.

If condi is a problem, just run cleansing sigil. It's totally OP in PvE/WvW for situations where you need cleansing but don't want to use traits/utilities for it. 3 condi cleanse on swap every 9 seconds. What more do you need?

[Lumikki.1725]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Lumikki.1725 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:So, you're saying that active avoidance and having to deal with more than one damage type with unique means of countering them is not as good as passively tanking damage from all sources with a toughness stat? If so, I disagree.

No, I'm saying that having two different way to get damage and one is totally ignoring touchness isn't good. In my opinion touchness should reduce both damage types. Notice, I don't mean that armor should reduce condition damage at all, but touchness should. Because touchness as attribute become less usefull if it doesn't do what it should do. This games has many small active defence options, condition removal is just one of many. Even if touchness would reduse condition damage, it doesn't remove it's affects, just adjust it's magnitude. That isn't tanking, because if it would be, then no condition damage based enemies could be tanked now in the game.

Okay, so the "headless chicken dance" comment is not a sign of your contempt for active avoidance and your desire to "improve" toughness is not a sign that you would prefer passive facetanking in its place?

No, Tanking leads often very passive gameplay. Where everone is basicly standing same position. I think active way is better. But when player choose attributes, they should be what they are ment to be. Because if touchness isn't meant to be what it should, then players don't choose that attribute at all, it leads less varient character builds.

Headless chiken dance is what players do when the active defence isn't fully working. Meaning players has so few option to actully avoid been taken damage that only option is just run around and dodge. I don't think movement is bad thing, but if it's allmost only think what you can do, then it isn't good. Many active defence has very long recharde time, what cause situations where players don't have much other options to do than run around.

I think toughness is fine. Disagree?

Yes.

If toughness is so lackluster, why is it necessary to place these kinds of restrictions on just this one stat? It's because if you don't, it leads to a bunker meta where players can't kill each other. Toughness is that powerful. Now, if you adjusted everything else about conditions and how we defend ourselves, then the conversation might change. But that would be reinventing the wheel and for what? The basic premise that toughness isn't good enough is simply wrong.

I do agree that touchness should not lead tanking like gameplay. Hole point to have more active defence is that we use them and aren't just able to stand front of the enemy. But at the moment hole condition damage isn't anyting more than action to bypass totally the players defence. So if we do that, why we even need touchness or armours. Let every damage type to hit players and rely totally to active defence and health. I don't think that's any better idea, because we would just reduse players options.

If condi is a problem, just run cleansing sigil. It's totally OP in PvE/WvW for situations where you need cleansing but don't want to use traits/utilities for it. 3 condi cleanse on swap every 9 seconds. What more do you need?

This is not about can someone cleansing condition damage, it's allways players choise to choose what to do. This is about attributes that they would do what they are ment to do. Magnitude of damage can allways scaled, so adjusting magnitude isn't issue.

One of problem what this gameplay style at the moment have, is that allmost all builds are notting put maximizing damage. Every attribute should be equal usefull for players, so players would actually have to make real choises about the build. Is the glass cannon better or should I have touchness and reduce little bit damage. Basicly hole touchness redusing condition damage system would not do anyting else than buy little more time to do something. But that's the choise player would have to make, is it worth.

[Omega.6801]

Healing and cleansing are different things. Making them the same would simplify the game even further.

[Trise.2865]

Because then they'd all be the same, with no meaningful choices. And we don't like that.

[Kulvar.1239]

As long as 1 healing skill per class also cleanse, there's no reason for all the healing skills to cleanse too. Choice matters

[aspirine.6852]

Shouldnt all classes be a bit different?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Why? Opportunity cost is an important part of build design.

[Leablo.2651]

Why would you overload your healing slot to double as a cleanse? That sounds like a really greedy strategy and should come with risks.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:I think every class has a good way of dealing with condis while maintaining enough dmg to kill bunch of pve trash mobs... it actually depends on what build your using and what are u sacrificing for ur condi cleanseCondi cleanses are actually very unevenly distributed throughout the classes. Some classes really struggle in any sort of condi-heavy environment.

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:I think every class has a good way of dealing with condis while maintaining enough dmg to kill bunch of pve trash mobs... it actually depends on what build your using and what are u sacrificing for ur condi cleanseCondi cleanses are actually very unevenly distributed throughout the classes. Some classes really struggle in any sort of condi-heavy environment.

Like what classes