Unpopular opinion: Icebrood Saga is bad

[Cuddy.6247]

Like, super bad. Replaying through HoT, replaying through LWS3, even PoF, and then doing Icebrood afterward?

Wow. Like, every single boss is just a massive headache. None of these story missions are fun.

ArenaNet better not look at LWS4 for any inspiration for the next expansion, it's utter garbage and only meant to be played through with a handful of classes, that much is evident.

[battledrone.8315]

apparantly, they are not made to be fun, but CHALLENGING. given the huge variation in class- and player performance, it went as one could expect

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:But see that is what A-net is doing. Humanizing them to make them "Relatable" and people like them because of what they are, not because of what they could be. We love the charr because they are as they are... I don't want humanized versions of the races. But that is the narrative that A-net is choosing to follow. Bangar and Smodur at the only charr acting like charr.... the rest are... well.... kinda... humanish.I can't buy this argument, for one simple reason. Its the exact same argument people try to use on the Klingons in Star Trek, and its just as invalid of an argument here as it is there.

People try to bemoan any instance of Klingons not being "blood for the blood god!" warriors, and say that it "isn't Klingon" to not act that way, but the Star Trek TV shows and movies have shown us Klingons in the roles of doctors, scientists, farmers, lawyers, etc. etc. And OFC it would. Even if a society was largely based on war, all of these things would still be necessary for that society to function in the first place. Without them, said society would still be stuck in the stone ages, if not having completely destroyed itself. Likewise, we see plenty of Charr who are just fine running bars, being farmers, and joining the priory to learn new things... because all of these things would be necessary for a functional society to exist at all.

Likewise, even among the part of the Klingon population that IS warrior based, there is a wide range of opinions on what being the best, or most honorable, warrior really means. Some Klingons are perfectly fine with annihilating entire planets, and using cloaking devices, while others find such actions completely dishonorable, and un-warrior like. Likewise, Charr too have a wide range of what they find acceptable, the Flame Legion finds it ok to use magic on the battlefield, while the other Legions don't, Ash prefers to sneak around, while blood and Iron prefer more up close and direct combat. Smodur and Bangar act no more or less "like Charr" then any other Charr in the Icebrood saga because the Charr aren't some monolithic hive mind species, where everyone has the same opinion on everything. They are a species of individuals with thoughts and opinions. The same can be said for the Norn as well.

Ultimately, your argument comes down to you saying that its bad that Anet gave the races depth, instead of making them one dimensional cartoon "planet of hats" caricatures. And, at that point, I would say that you never really liked the Norn or Charr at all, you only liked one aspect of them, but otherwise didn't like them as a whole.

They have yet to touch on ANYTHING from their lore, in any real and meaningful way. I liked EVERYTHING about the norn and I wanted more of their norse/celtic and native american like roots to be shown through in the sequel to guild wars. That has not and probably will not happen, the whole werebeast thing likely wont be flushed out either so no Its you who only likes "one part of them" which is the most human part. Its not depth to dilute a race that is clearly not human while not giving credence or even respect to their established culture; The norn have had little to no time to be given any sort of development in the way that is meaningful for them and rather are being used as a prop for the saga. Its terrible writing and honestly makes me feel like Id of rather them not have bothered trying at all~

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:They have yet to touch on ANYTHING from their lore, in any real and meaningful way.I honestly don't know how they could get more significant then Episodes 1/2 in the Bjora Marches. Pretty much everything about those two maps was significant Norn lore.

Raven, Wolf, the Lost Spirits, Drakkar, the place Asgeir killed Frostfang(including its bones), and fought Jormag, plus big revelations about what actually went down there. Its pretty hard to get more meaningful then that.

so no Its you who only likes "one part of them" which is the most human part.and I wanted more of their norse/celtic and native american like rootsThese two statements are contradictory. Calling someone out for likingthierh uman parts, and then saying you wanted to see the parts of them that are entierly human based.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:They have yet to touch on ANYTHING from their lore, in any real and meaningful way.I honestly don't know how they could get more significant then Episodes 1/2 in the Bjora Marches. Pretty much everything about those two maps was significant Norn lore.

Raven, Wolf, the Lost Spirits, Drakkar, the place Asgeir killed Frostfang(including its bones), and fought Jormag, plus big revelations about what actually went down there. Its pretty hard to get more meaningful then that.

so no Its you who only likes "one part of them" which is the most human part.and I wanted more of their norse/celtic and native american like rootsThese two statements are contradictory. Calling someone out for likingthierh uman parts, and then saying you wanted to see the parts of them that are entierly human based.

I wanted to see the parts based on cultures that are where my interest lies this is true, the stuff that went down in Bjora was "neat". Braham being a chosen one is dumb, and the fact drakkar went down like it did after the build up was disappointing. Most of the norn stuff was ambient remains of what was once their civilization while they had been here; Its not seeing their current views be tested or characters we care about (Who cares really about Jhavi or Braham at this stage?) deal with the fallout of what is going on.

I don't desire to see them humanized but I wanted to see their culture and how they would handle the information about asgeir and what is going on currently. How would they react to bangar and the frost legion, how would things be handled and how would they go about what needed to get done? This is their story not the freak'n cat's but the damn cat people are hogging all the space of this saga. I honestly want to gut bangar, put his head on a wall somewhere and move on because im tired of focusing on a species that has for all intents and purposes been the poster child of the franchise. I want to see the norn return to how they were in guild wars 1, when they were more interesting because right now they for the most part are boring. And im not sure what that comes down too but they just don't feel remotely close to being the same species or even same people.

[Fueki.4753]

I vastly prefer LS4 maps to LS3 ones.To me, Bloodstone Fen, Bitterfrost Slowdown and Lake White Mantle Are the worst maps in the game.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Cuddy.6247 said:Like, super bad. Replaying through HoT, replaying through LWS3, even PoF, and then doing Icebrood afterward?

Wow. Like, every single boss is just a massive headache. None of these story missions are fun.

ArenaNet better not look at LWS4 for any inspiration for the next expansion, it's utter garbage and only meant to be played through with a handful of classes, that much is evident.

I completely disagree. Story missions were a lot more fun when you were facing an actual challenge. And the season, for most part, was really good - unlike season 3, which I consider really bad story- and map-wise.

[Loesh.4697]

I probably enjoy the bosses this season the most. They are mechanically challenging rather then just being a dps sponge, my biggest grievance with previous bosses was the fact that they just took forever to kill rather then actually threatening my character with death.

[MrForz.1953]

I haven't stepped too much into LS4. Infact I haven't even touched the last two episodes. I... couldn't care for it.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Is it Living World Season 4 that the OP is dissatisfied with, or the IceBrood Saga?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Braham being a chosen one is dumbHe really isn't though. Hes only "chosen" because hes the one who broke the tooth, but, technically speaking, anyone could have done it and been in his place as a result. There was no predestination in him specifically being in this role. Any other Norn could have got it.

and the fact drakkar went down like it did after the build up was disappointing.You mean the fact that it went down exactly like Frostfang did, with a Norn hero using the power of the Spirits of the Wild to kill it in one blow, is disappointing? I was actually glad they remembered that bit of Asgeir's lore. Historical parallels, and how they relate to the current narrative, make everything more interesting then some dumb big smashy smashy boss fight the game has overused so much.

Most of the norn stuff was ambient remains of what was once their civilization while they had been here; Its not seeing their current views be tested or characters we care about (Who cares really about Jhavi or Braham at this stage?) deal with the fallout of what is going on.Braham is my favorite of the Dragon's Watch characters besides Rytlock. He and Rytlock are the only two who aren't complete bootlickers to the Commander, and I respect them greatly for it. And Jhavi is the descendant of Jora, a major character from Guild Wars 2. Out of all the Norn in the game those are the two who SHOULD be getting a lot of focus, and they are generally the ones I care about the most because of it. What Norn do you care about if not them?

How would they react to bangar and the frost legion, how would things be handled and how would they go about what needed to get done?We already know this though. They went over this in both Guild Wars 1, and during the Mordremoth storyline in Guild Wars 2. The Norn are a race of individuals, with no real organization, or leadership. People like Gunnar Poundfist back in GW1, and Knut Whitebear in GW2, are respected, but ultimately not leaders, within the Norn, and have no ability to direct the Norn to do anything. At best they can do what they have already done, which is tell people there's some cool fights to be had, and suggest people go do it, but its up to each Norn individually to decide if they want to. And most of the Norn who have decided to fight the Dragons have already joined up with the Pact, the organization whose whole goal is to fight dragons. They have already done what lore going back to GW1 suggest they would do. Let everyone decide individually if they want to take up the fight or not.

I honestly want to gut bangar, put his head on a wall somewhere and move on because im tired of focusing on a species that has for all intents and purposes been the poster child of the franchise.Humans have been the only poster child of the franchise.

I want to see the norn return to how they were in guild wars 1, when they were more interesting because right now they for the most part are boring. And im not sure what that comes down too but they just don't feel remotely close to being the same species or even same people.They are acting in GW2 exactly like they did in GW1.-"A dragon minion and its army are messing things up? Well, we don't have armies, so I'll tell everyone a good fight is to be had, and then they can decide if they want to get involved or not!"Its the same response to the same situations in both games.

[Randulf.7614]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Is it Living World Season 4 that the OP is dissatisfied with, or the IceBrood Saga?

They mentioned Icebrood saga as following it so almost certainly they mean ls4 as stated.

Op, I agree to an extent. My issue is largely with the story direction and certain unfinished maps.

I think to say it was overall bad ignores a lot of the good and it’s fair to say ls4 was very good in places, but the inconsistency is remarkable because where it went wrong, it went spectacularly wrong and damaged the franchise for me.

[Teratus.2859]

I completely disagree.

LW4 is some of the best story content in the entire game imo.Yes there are some parts I am not fond of such as the cop out Joko magic excuse with Aurine but overall season 4 is great, Joko is a very entertaining villain and Kralkatorrik is by far the best Elder Dragon conflict in the game.Mordremoth and especially Zhaitan don't even come close to the epicness that was put into the Kralkatorrik encounters, granted these were made in a different time and a whole bunch of reasons involved and that's totally understandable.Point is though.. Elder Dragon encounters have gotten increasingly better since Gw2 released, Mordremoth was a big step up from Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik was a big step up from Mordremoth.I cannot wait to see what's going to happen with Jormag.. and Jormag so far has been my highlight with Icebrood saga (Not played the recent relsese though nor will till the VA comes in)

Honestly the only season of living world I don't look forward to replaying is Season 2.. it has some moments but there is a lot of dull time wasting involved in season 2 that gets really tedious.Having to run back and fore to Omadds Machine and doing the Caithe Missions etc are some that get criticized a bit about season 2 for good reason.But since HoT came out I've personally been of the mindset that the story has gotten progressively better over time.At least overall, with a few bits here and there which are exceptions but not enough to drag entire seasons down.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

LWS 4 is my favorite by a huge margin.Dont know what you're talking 'bout mate

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Braham being a chosen one is dumbHe really isn't though. Hes only "chosen" because hes the one who broke the tooth, but, technically speaking, anyone could have done it and been in his place as a result. There was no predestination in him specifically being in this role. Any other Norn could have got it.

and the fact drakkar went down like it did after the build up was disappointing.You mean the fact that it went down exactly like Frostfang did, with a Norn hero using the power of the Spirits of the Wild to kill it in one blow, is disappointing? I was actually glad they remembered that bit of Asgeir's lore. Historical parallels, and how they relate to the current narrative, make everything more interesting then some dumb big smashy smashy boss fight the game has overused so much.

I mean it was cool, but I honestly wanted more to do with Jhavi on that one CONSIDERING she is by blood tied to jora. I feel like maybe a special and significant bond there to exploit would of been cool; Braham just being Asgeir 2.0 doesn't impress me infact its predictable that would be the chosen outcome. As Braham is the chosen one, wolf has stated such. "You are the norn of prophecy" which makes him the chosen one, it means this was pre-ordained and we will have a sequel to jesus story with him. (Im expecting him to end up like thrall in WoW)

Most of the norn stuff was ambient remains of what was once their civilization while they had been here; Its not seeing their current views be tested or characters we care about (Who cares really about Jhavi or Braham at this stage?) deal with the fallout of what is going on.Braham is my favorite of the Dragon's Watch characters besides Rytlock. He and Rytlock are the only two who aren't complete bootlickers to the Commander, and I respect them greatly for it. And Jhavi is the descendant of Jora, a major character from Guild Wars 2. Out of all the Norn in the game those are the two who SHOULD be getting a lot of focus, and they are generally the ones I care about the most because of it. What Norn do you care about if not them?

Knut is the blood of Asgeir, as is Knut's son who has yet to appear. We could explore what happened to Olaf seventh son of Olaf and IF he has family somewhere, just to add closure as to what happened. We could focus on the norn as a people and not on these TWO individuals who are already vastly more note-worthy, we could see the trials of aspiring legends that seek to further their repertoire. Braham is a boring case, he legit has been nothing but a very childish and inconsistent mess of a character since HoT and now he is just being pushed to center stage, yes he broke the fang. With a bow infused with asgeirs Jotuun magic. Why can't we see where the norn and kodan/jotuun's connection lies? Why can't we have more focus on the region as well and less on the charr? Oh wait because again charr have been the poster children since GW2 came out. They could do ANYTHING and there are so many characters who are tied to this mess due to jormag's nature, and how it fought with the norn some 250 years ago that it doesn't make sense that ONLY Jhavi and Braham have come to fight. Im sure Knut's son would want a piece of the action and again he is BY BLOOD tied to asgeir, if anyone should be chosen.... it should be him. Braham could of become Eir, and filled the void she left because its been left vacant and I highly doubt we will see Jhavi much after the saga... unless she leaves the vigil and leaves it with Laranthir to come with us... which seems unlikely.

How would they react to bangar and the frost legion, how would things be handled and how would they go about what needed to get done?We already know this though. They went over this in both Guild Wars 1, and during the Mordremoth storyline in Guild Wars 2. The Norn are a race of individuals, with no real organization, or leadership. People like Gunnar Poundfist back in GW1, and Knut Whitebear in GW2, are respected, but ultimately not leaders, within the Norn, and have no ability to direct the Norn to do anything. At best they can do what they have already done, which is tell people there's some cool fights to be had, and suggest people go do it, but its up to each Norn individually to decide if they want to. And most of the Norn who have decided to fight the Dragons have already joined up with the Pact, the organization whose whole goal is to fight dragons. They have already done what lore going back to GW1 suggest they would do. Let everyone decide individually if they want to take up the fight or not.

Granted but there have been racial tensions already with the charr and norn, you can hear it in ambient dialogue in hoelbrak? A charr working with jormag? You can't tell me that wouldn't piss a bunch of norn off. Hell it might piss off the svanir too because its a CHARR and not a NORN; You think for a moment that bands of norn wouldn't make their way north to fight against not only jormag but the charr who seek its power? As a Norn player I want to kill EVERY charr siding with bangar, and bangar himself as I see no place for mercy. That is the logical conclusion of a norns thought process as a charr of note would dare to side with jormag, a charr who openly belittles any race thats not his Fur-covered wanabe orc self. You expect me to believe that individuals who already show prejudice to the charr for deeds of the past, who hate jormag with every fiber of their being do not want to fight and prevent a Svanir 2.0 from emerging? The leader of the svanir is already dead, their moral likely buckled and their hierarchy left in chaos as the Fraenir died in episode 1. So much for focusing on them at all huh? Pretty much going the way of the flame legion from vanilla, regardless of jormags intentions I don't see many norn sitting idle for long when news reaches them. But then I felt the same way with balthazar, I would of thought the legions would of rolled their armies down to deal with it as its a world ending threat. You know charr tanks and so on so they could steal the tech and make amped versions of their weapons; A selfish reasoning but one none the less.

I honestly want to gut bangar, put his head on a wall somewhere and move on because im tired of focusing on a species that has for all intents and purposes been the poster child of the franchise.Humans have been the only poster child of the franchise.

hmm. Well then why is Rytlock not only the statue for the GW1 collectors eddition, but is also the mini for both HoT and Vanilla and even comes on the launcher for HoT? PoF had balthazar which was the first time I Remember seeing human anything within such an opening. The humans have NOT been a poster baby since the end of Gw1, its all charr buddy. I Don't see human back-packs, hats and human exclusive helms being handed out. I also don't see them having collectors statues and even being the ONE character to end up in the now I believe dead game Master X Master. Rytlock has been the poster boy since launch, rytlock is a charr which means that the species has been the poster children. Heck they even were promotional material back in the days of Prophecies and Eye of the north. Its like WoW sure Orcs and Humans have always been promotional material and have shared space.... but we all know Orcs were the poster children as they appear in ALL of blizzards stuff while humans do not. The charr are much the same. (They also had focus in the personal story if you choose vigil, they also play a huge role in the plot with their weapons and tactics. Even during the human conflict they appeared to help end the white mantle and have participated in every major skirmish we have had save maybe PoF.)

I want to see the norn return to how they were in guild wars 1, when they were more interesting because right now they for the most part are boring. And im not sure what that comes down too but they just don't feel remotely close to being the same species or even same people.They are acting in GW2 exactly like they did in GW1.-"A dragon minion and its army are messing things up? Well, we don't have armies, so I'll tell everyone a good fight is to be had, and then they can decide if they want to get involved or not!"Its the same response to the same situations in both games.

No its not, you're delusional if you think it is. This isn't some "Dragon minion" this is JORMAGS minions and jormag itself which the norn have a ax to grind with and have had such since launch. When you create a norn the FIRST THING they speak about is jormag and how important it is to you as a norn, and how important it is to your people and how they wish to go home. It sets a very strong foundation (even more if you go with priory due to it having a svanir related narrative.) That one day your PEOPLE will return to fight jormag. It sets up that its a huge deal for you and even in your personal story all the way up to where the pact is formed you deal with these issues, we get hints at the jotuun too having issue with jormag as do the kodan. So why don't we bring those races more into the fold so to speak and maybe actually flush out their relationship to one another and to jormag? Oh whats that? Nah we are gonna let the charr have this. Despite this being 100% the norns story which was set up at the launch of the dang game. So no I fundamentally disagree with everything you've said, from a lore perspective down to a common sense perspective this narrative is garbo and continues to be garbo.

I think its time we wash our hands of one another because Im unwilling to bend to your point of view, and you're unwilling to even accept mine. So We agree to disagree and move on as conversations between us will be a waste of time as it will continue to back and forth like this until the stars expire. You have a good one, and good gaming too you but honestly Id rather not be replied too. It's clear there is a communication barrier here, one Im not sure I want resolved.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

I think story is okay we actually have things going that aren't boring dragons and some magic dynamics that Anet makes up as they go.

[anninke.7469]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

I wanted to see the parts based on cultures that are where my interest lies this is true, the stuff that went down in Bjora was "neat". Braham being a chosen one is dumb, and the fact drakkar went down like it did after the build up was disappointing. Most of the norn stuff was ambient remains of what was once their civilization while they had been here; Its not seeing their current views be tested or characters we care about (Who cares really about Jhavi or Braham at this stage?) deal with the fallout of what is going on.

I don't desire to see them humanized but I wanted to see their culture and how they would handle the information about asgeir and what is going on currently. How would they react to bangar and the frost legion, how would things be handled and how would they go about what needed to get done? This is their story not the freak'n cat's but the kitten cat people are hogging all the space of this saga. I honestly want to gut bangar, put his head on a wall somewhere and move on because im tired of focusing on a species that has for all intents and purposes been the poster child of the franchise. I want to see the norn return to how they were in guild wars 1, when they were more interesting because right now they for the most part are boring. And im not sure what that comes down too but they just don't feel remotely close to being the same species or even same people.

You know what? I can feel your pain about this, because this is pretty much the way I feel about the whole "Sylvari expansion". Because if you look at it, during several LS chapters and an expansion we kinda revealed that they are dragon minions and... and that was it. Except the stuff with others not believing sylvari soldiers for a whole one map in HoT and a few "have to find them to learn something" NPCs down the road, there was nothing actually done. Right the next zone switched to Glint stuff, the Exalted, the egg and bye bye, tree people lore... All the things you would have wanted for the Norn I would have wanted for twiggs. Heck, the Norn at least got those armor sets in LS5... As shallow as it seems I'm really a bit envious about that.

[Randulf.7614]

Oh for goodness sake, they merged two different threads on two different seasons together

[Thornwolf.9721]

@anninke.7469 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

I wanted to see the parts based on cultures that are where my interest lies this is true, the stuff that went down in Bjora was "neat". Braham being a chosen one is dumb, and the fact drakkar went down like it did after the build up was disappointing. Most of the norn stuff was ambient remains of what was once their civilization while they had been here; Its not seeing their current views be tested or characters we care about (Who cares really about Jhavi or Braham at this stage?) deal with the fallout of what is going on.

I don't desire to see them humanized but I wanted to see their culture and how they would handle the information about asgeir and what is going on currently. How would they react to bangar and the frost legion, how would things be handled and how would they go about what needed to get done? This is their story not the freak'n cat's but the kitten cat people are hogging all the space of this saga. I honestly want to gut bangar, put his head on a wall somewhere and move on because im tired of focusing on a species that has for all intents and purposes been the poster child of the franchise. I want to see the norn return to how they were in guild wars 1, when they were more interesting because right now they for the most part are boring. And im not sure what that comes down too but they just don't feel remotely close to being the same species or even same people.

You know what? I can feel your pain about this, because this is pretty much the way I feel about the whole "Sylvari expansion". Because if you look at it, during several LS chapters and an expansion we kinda revealed that they are dragon minions and... and that was it. Except the stuff with others not believing sylvari soldiers for a whole one map in HoT and a few "have to find them to learn something" NPCs down the road, there was nothing actually done. Right the next zone switched to Glint stuff, the Exalted, the egg and bye bye, tree people lore... All the things you would have wanted for the Norn I would have wanted for twiggs. Heck, the Norn at least got those armor sets in LS5... As shallow as it seems I'm really a bit envious about that.

No, no I fully agree. I feel HoT and by proxy even PoF was a HUGE waste of potential for everyone involved. Id of loved to of encountered mallyck or heck even have some lore shed on the indigenous life and how they exist with the mordrem everywhere. I expected SO much from HoT and I thought for sure we would have a satisfying sylvari story-line. I 100% agree and think the twiggs got shafted and thats a shame because as much as I consider them a meme I think that they are unique, and deserve to be flushed out but unfortunantly the narrative is garbo and has always been garbo with writers who seem to just want to get from point "A" To "Z" as fast as possible with nothing added or gained. WoW Does their stories better honestly and thats saying something considering how much of it is just "Really, this is where this is headed?"

But at least WoW has development and pointed scenarios and lore thrown at races given their relevance, HoT SHOULD OF BEEN the climax to the sylvari story and been their magnum opus to a new dawn for them. Their creator is dead and they now must deal with the fallout of their nature, and how tyrians will now receive them given the circumstances? Hell I want some mordrem looking options in character creator, what if I want to look monstrous only to prove myself as someone and something hell bent on protecting tyria. What about the sylvari's ability to Transform environments to better suite their needs (The wall with joko, and how it effects the world? How they can basically turn a barren wasteland into an Oasis?) What of their ability to resist dragon corruption? Doesn't that make them in theory the best soldiers to have on the front lines? Mordremoth was the exception, they could of even gone into the idea that for the first time the sylvari are feeling the fear that every other race feels for the dragons. As they are more the target and victim then some of the others because they can be possessed and abused by mordremoth, it could of been a huge turning point for the race and its a dang shame they didn't do it. I feel for you, sincerely and Im sorry that they didn't even give the twiggs a proper end to their arc in Living world S3 as it was mostly ignored.

Heck Im excited to see how the Wardens (Echovald forest) React to the sylvari given that Urgoz was a pale-tree like being, what have they been up to and are they somehow related in some significant way? Will this be explored? Probably not. Because they treat everyone like they are the "human" commander so you gotta be ignorant to the world around you, know nothing and basically be there as the driving force but not the focus of the story.

[Fenom.9457]

I'm definitely enjoying it a lot. Though I'm much more interested in the horror themes, Jormag, and Far Shiverpeaks lore than Charr civil war atm

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:even have some lore shed on the indigenous life and how they exist with the mordrem everywhere.We saw that with the Itzel and Nuoch, and several events/NPC dialogs talk about how other non-sapient species in the Maguuma are surviving against the Mordrem. Mostly its due to being really strong and hardened due to the jungle's already harsh environment.

Their creator is dead and they now must deal with the fallout of their nature, and how tyrians will now receive them given the circumstances?Why would the Tyrians care? The Sylvari have spent all of their, admittedly short, existence as entities in no way shape or form associated with the dragons, and have acted friendly and cooperative with the other races the whole time. The other races only acted hostile to the Sylvari during HoT because Sylvari were going crazy due to Mordrmeoth's influence. But with Mordremoth's death they went back to normal. While there would be a small handful of people suspicious of them, something that has been brought up several times since HoT, the vast majority of Tyrians have no reason to see them, or treat them, any different then they did before HoT, because they aren't any different then they were pre-HoT. The truth of their nature really wouldn't matter since they were never living in their true nature, having been born free from Mordremoth's influence, and not acting as dragon minions this whole time. The Sylvari's nature has always been fundamentally different from what it was meant to be, going back to that isn't a change for them.

Hell I want some mordrem looking options in character creator, what if I want to look monstrous only to prove myself as someone and something hell bent on protecting tyria.Sylvari who were transformed into Mordrem turn back to normal if they free themselves. This was brought up in Labyrinthine Cliffs during one of the Festivals of the Four Winds.

What about the sylvari's ability to Transform environments to better suite their needs (The wall with joko, and how it effects the world? How they can basically turn a barren wasteland into an Oasis?)Creating thorn walls, something they have done all the way back in the base game, isn't "transforming environment", its making a thorn wall. Its no different then the Charr deploying a metal wall. Without something constantly pumping magic into it to sustain it, it will collapse and the region will go back to normal. Just as metal rust and decay over time. The Sylvari have no ability to fundamentally change environments, no more so then any other race using magic does.

What of their ability to resist dragon corruption? Doesn't that make them in theory the best soldiers to have on the front lines? Mordremoth was the exception,What about it? Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption only comes into play if there is a dragon, or high level lieutenant, there to corrupt them. Beyond that, their effectiveness on the front lines comes from weapons, armor, and skill, something that applies to all the other races. Again, this is something that has been discussed since the base game. Its really not a big leg up or anything.

they could of even gone into the idea that for the first time the sylvari are feeling the fear that every other race feels for the dragons. As they are more the target and victim then some of the others because they can be possessed and abused by mordremoth,This was also mentioned several times through many HoT event from Verdant Brink to Dragon's Stand. With Mordrmeoth's death the only dragon that could corrupt them is dead, so they would no longer have that fear. Now all they have to fear is the same thing they, and everyone else, always had to face, getting killed by the dragons.

Heck Im excited to see how the Wardens (Echovald forest) React to the sylvari given that Urgoz was a pale-tree like being, what have they been up to and are they somehow related in some significant way? Will this be explored?Urgoz was nothing like the Pale Tree is appearance or function. And give that the Canthan Empire supposedly drove out all non human races between GW1 and 2, I would be surprised if any Warden's remain. They were likely driven to extinction in the Ministry of Purity's genocidal cleansing campaign.

Wardens are more similar to druids, and were suspected to be humans who merged with nature spirits to transform themselves.

[Randulf.7614]

@Fenom.9457 said:I'm definitely enjoying it a lot. Though I'm much more interested in the horror themes, Jormag, and Far Shiverpeaks lore than Charr civil war atm

I am too. The Boneskinner ambient stuff with the NPC's was excellent and ofc the corpse puppetry was very well done. Storywise the Charr stuff is winning out, but I am hoping the eldritch horror stuff pushes ahead more as we move through the Saga

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:I'm definitely enjoying it a lot. Though I'm much more interested in the horror themes, Jormag, and Far Shiverpeaks lore than Charr civil war atm

I am too. The Boneskinner ambient stuff with the NPC's was excellent and ofc the corpse puppetry was very well done. Storywise the Charr stuff is winning out, but I am hoping the eldritch horror stuff pushes ahead more as we move through the Saga

Boneskinner was one of the best parts of episode 1, the civil war stuff has had nothing to do with horror of any form. Id really like them to actually deliver on the "dark fantasy, eldritch horror " story they kept pushing with the reveal of this. Its like part 1 of bjora happened along with grothmar with a solid set-up and now... its back to the status quo.

[Randulf.7614]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:I'm definitely enjoying it a lot. Though I'm much more interested in the horror themes, Jormag, and Far Shiverpeaks lore than Charr civil war atm

I am too. The Boneskinner ambient stuff with the NPC's was excellent and ofc the corpse puppetry was very well done. Storywise the Charr stuff is winning out, but I am hoping the eldritch horror stuff pushes ahead more as we move through the Saga

Boneskinner was one of the best parts of episode 1, the civil war stuff has had nothing to do with horror of any form. Id really like them to actually deliver on the "dark fantasy, eldritch horror " story they kept pushing with the reveal of this. Its like part 1 of bjora happened along with grothmar with a solid set-up and now... its back to the status quo.

The civil war has utlised a more "horrors of war" theme, but I think with the arrival of the Frost Legion, it will swing back to the more eldritch stuff. Seeing the monsters (like the boneskinner) across the bridge in the final instance helped enhance that feeling

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:I'm definitely enjoying it a lot. Though I'm much more interested in the horror themes, Jormag, and Far Shiverpeaks lore than Charr civil war atm

I am too. The Boneskinner ambient stuff with the NPC's was excellent and ofc the corpse puppetry was very well done. Storywise the Charr stuff is winning out, but I am hoping the eldritch horror stuff pushes ahead more as we move through the Saga

Boneskinner was one of the best parts of episode 1, the civil war stuff has had nothing to do with horror of any form. Id really like them to actually deliver on the "dark fantasy, eldritch horror " story they kept pushing with the reveal of this. Its like part 1 of bjora happened along with grothmar with a solid set-up and now... its back to the status quo.

The civil war has utlised a more "horrors of war" theme, but I think with the arrival of the Frost Legion, it will swing back to the more eldritch stuff. Seeing the monsters (like the boneskinner) across the bridge in the final instance helped enhance that feeling

We can only hope, I don't mean to sound meh but the "horrors of war" has been something that we've gone over in guild wars. both 1 and 2 PoF was all about war as balth came back and we got to seem some horrendous acts. I also recall seeing and feeling the loss during our encounters with kralk, mordremoth, zaithan so the horror of war storyline has been driven well home in this narrative. I hope you're right and that next episode we get more of the good stuff....