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Perceived toxicity


yann.1946

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@"kratan.4619" said:"You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

Which is an altogether unimpressive threat in a situation where there are thousands if not tens of thousands of other people willing to play as well as an openly accessible warehouse with practically infinite balls in storage.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

Is it really an open party? Or rather a close party that they try desperately to enter even when not being invited.

Comparison was clear enough.

No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

Actually it's totally fair to dismiss them and it's funny that you are doing the same kind of derailing here that they do.

I'm mearly pointing out that you're saying it's perfectly ok to disregard/invalidate people's opinions and experiences in a discussion about a game mode that they haven't been able to play, because they havent played it..Even though the only reason they haven't played it is because of how they've been treated and excluded by the players who do.

Essentially (and I do hope this is unintentional) you're justifying a kind of bullying behaviour that excludes people from raiding, in order to disregard their complaints about that behaviour.Ergo whether you're aware of it or not you're still contributing to the same toxicity that pushes people away from this content.

Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

Then you really haven't been to Raid threads in the last few years.

A good number in fact, though the last one was at least a few months ago.

"All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.

And I question that this type of behavior is common enough to warrant labeling a part of the community as toxic. How many times where your "all welcome" groups been hijacked while running Raids? Where they actually been "taken over" or was a simple note given about the lack of dps?

In Raids, it only happened a few of times from the small amount of runs I attempted to get a group going, and yes most of the time when it did happen they were taken over to a point I said screw this and left because I didn't want to play with those types of people.And no I wasn't always the one being berated either but I still left anyway.I have been in that position a few times in various content, but mostly I see it happen to other players a lot more than it happens to me.

The main place I saw it occur was in strike missions largely due to them being designed to be more accessable to non raiders.But the same toxicity in raids bled over into strikes aswell, if anything it's even more common there since strikes are mostly easier than raids and attract more players than raids do.

If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

I bet you have enough sources to prove this right? And it's not, as the topic of the thread is, PERCEIVED toxicity and not real one.

Prove which one?Can only give my personal experience on the "most teams i've played with get more annoyed" bit, I hardly screenshot and archive every conversation with randoms.

But the "most people don't care if someones DPS is low" part, well that's pretty self evident through old content like dungeons.If most people who play dungeons cared about having the most meta DPS fast runs like they used to several years ago then people would still be complaining about how toxic dungeon groups are.As many have pointed out, the problems people have with raids used to be just as common in dungeons a long time ago.. fractals too for a while.

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@Ooops.8694 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

@"Teratus.2859" said:Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"No, they are mostly about "raids are too hard to get into, because i can rarely beat bosses with random guys with no clue (sometimes i don't even tried) but the experienced ones insist on grouping only with players on a similiar experience scale. So please remove dpsmeters, LI and KP so they can't distinguish anymore. Or at least add an easy mode with (probably less but still) indistinguishable rewards."You see the "agenda"there, don't you? It's not hidden that well...

I've made plenty of arguments for easy mode raids myself.Partly for training purposes so people can learn the mechanics in a more forgiving environment, which is the biggest in game difficulty factor in raiding.And also to experience the story element without having to waste anyone elses time in an actual raid.NO! raid rewards was always an absolute must have for that to work as intended and not take away from the normal raid content, and I stressed that over and over again.

It never mattered though, raiders would always come down hard on any arguments for easy modes that wouldn't effect them in the slightests because ultimately they had raids how they wanted them and they didn't want anyone else coming along and proving that their precious meta's were not the only way to play the content.

The most amusing thing to me however is that we, in a way got the easy mode raids we long asked for.. Strike missions.But that didn't stop the toxicity in the raid community from spreading into strikes too, humorous considering how anti easy mode raids these people were originally.To be fair though, the rewards are the main reason for that happening more than anything, I can't blame them for that, but that is exactly why I was such a strong advocate for NO! rewards in the first place.Raiders would not have bothered with strikes if there were no rewards.. or at least only rewards in the challenge variants which would be close to or on par with the easiest raids.That would have been a better setup for strikes imo.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

What happened to the famous "play how you want"? And really now? I can't choose who I play with? I can't choose how to spend my time in a video game that I play to relax and kill time? Am I not allowed to make choices in a video game?

Essentially (and I do hope this is unintentional) you're justifying a kind of bullying behaviour that excludes people from raiding, in order to disregard their complaints about that behaviour.

I'm not the one that wants to actively bully players into changing the way they play the game and calling them toxic when they don't play by your own expectations. Your argument in a simple phrase is: "anyone that doesn't conform to my own personal expectations is toxic", someday you might see how selfish and entitled that attitude is. How being disrespectful and inconsiderate of your fellow players makes you the one that is toxic and not the other way around. OR probably not.

As I said in my first post in this thread:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1309964/#Comment_1309964

My only suggestion to help reduce this "problem": Stop replying to posts talking about this so called "toxicity".In almost every single thread talking about toxicity, the OP is either the actual toxic one, or we simply don't get enough information about the situation, leading to the "toxicity just happens, move along", when in reality it's unlikely that there is any form of actual toxicity at work (other than the one making the claims in the first place)And I don't think there is any way to stop players from posting about toxicity without knowing what toxicity is, they will always do it, just ignore them, or set them straight when the OP is toxic, and move on.

You've been nothing but negative, making half the posts in the last few pages adding almost nothing to the discussion, arguing with almost everyone. THIS is what I was talking about in my first post, a couple of forum posters blowing "problems" completely out of proportions and creating never ending discussions going in circles, that an external viewer might see and say "Look 15 pages of toxicity, there IS toxicity in the game!". I mean, the internet said something, so it must be true.

It's up to those that claim toxicity exists, to prove that it does.

And you failed to provide any kind of evidence that this toxicity exists inside the game, only your "personal experience", without any means to back it up.

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@Katary.7096 said:

@"kratan.4619" said:"You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

Which is an altogether unimpressive threat in a situation where there are thousands if not tens of thousands of other people willing to play as well as an openly accessible warehouse with practically infinite balls in storage.

That's something a lot of people don't seem to get. No one is indispensable, nor they are God's gift to their party. So losing "you" (a general term, not to anyone specfically) is not a big deal. And I wonder which has a harder time finding a party; someone that performs adequately, or someone that doesn't.

So people can condemn the "elitists" all you want, but they're getting the stuff done, while all they can do is spew hot air.

Btw one can always make friends of a similar skill level and form a static, and won't have to pug.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

@Teratus.2859 said:Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"No, they are mostly about "raids are too hard to get into, because i can rarely beat bosses with random guys with no clue (sometimes i don't even tried) but the experienced ones insist on grouping only with players on a similiar experience scale. So please remove dpsmeters, LI and KP so they can't distinguish anymore. Or at least add an easy mode with (probably less but still) indistinguishable rewards."You see the "agenda"there, don't you? It's not hidden that well...

I've made plenty of arguments for easy mode raids myself.Partly for training purposes so people can learn the mechanics in a more forgiving environment, which is the biggest in game difficulty factor in raiding.And also to experience the story element without having to waste anyone elses time in an actual raid.NO! raid rewards was always an absolute must have for that to work as intended and not take away from the normal raid content, and I stressed that over and over again.

It never mattered though, raiders would always come down hard on any arguments for easy modes that wouldn't effect them in the slightests because ultimately they had raids how they wanted them and they didn't want anyone else coming along and proving that their precious meta's were not the only way to play the content.

The most amusing thing to me however is that we, in a way got the easy mode raids we long asked for.. Strike missions.But that didn't stop the toxicity in the raid community from spreading into strikes too, humorous considering how anti easy mode raids these people were originally.To be fair though, the rewards are the main reason for that happening more than anything, I can't blame them for that, but that is exactly why I was such a strong advocate for NO! rewards in the first place.Raiders would not have bothered with strikes if there were no rewards.. or at least only rewards in the challenge variants which would be close to or on par with the easiest raids.That would have been a better setup for strikes imo.

For someone so concerned and against being told how to play you seen incredibly concerned with telling others how to play and use their time as long as it includes you.

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@Teratus.2859 said:No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

i absolutly dictate who comes into my party and who doesn't when i open and organize said party...and it dosn't matter if its dungeons, openworld, raids or whatever content. i am not going to play with everyone and their mom if i do not want to and i will absolutly enforce the rules i put up.

one of my rules for example is to never play with blocked people. sucks for them but i don't give a shit. they will be kicked on sight.what are you going to do? report me to anet? try to change it?...go ahead and try it, silly person.

...content in this game is not restricted for anyone, and if there are restrictions (level restrictions for pvp for example), then its there for a reason.group rules =/= player restriction.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

Actually a more accurate analogy would be someone joining a private room called "private room" without an invitation (or experience/kp) where every party member has said requirements except this certain individual who wondered in knowing it is indeed a private room. Everyone has right to have fun their own way. There is plenty more "rooms" around. Nobody is stopping you from throwing your own party in a private room with requirements that fit You.

Entitlement breeds toxicity.

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@yann.1946 said:The recent tread about matchmaking has made me think about an important problem in raids.

The perceived toxicity that gets complained about. Because it doesn't really matter that it's a false observation (no complete group of people is toxic unless they are defined by being toxic)When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy.

So as a question: What are you're suggestions to reduce this problems.BTW i am aware of a multitude of things being done to accommodate it, just curious to see if theirs something we missed.

I never done raids before because of several things and im over it for now which means I don’t even think about doing raidsBut i play fractals and we have the same problem there as well.The solution is to give more rewards for the people who carry the parties and even more when you have a noobs in your party.Adding a skill level will be a good start in that regard.

Just like how the pvp rankings system work

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@"yann.1946"
For me best solution was to do raids/fractals/strikes with guild

idk why in this game many ppl decide to do that by pug

when you do it with guild, your more bind to ppl that you play evry day compare when you join as random wher no one know you or you not know them

when i started play 3-4 months ago, first think i did was to find trening raid guild, i watched guides before joing raid aslo used meta build for rifle holo

even found teacher that play holo, to see at my rotation and give some tips ( i meet him while i was roaming 1vs3 as scrapper at wvw)

i came from huge p2w game called allods online when i survived over 6y as only f2p

i can't understed why so many ppl have problems

is it becase game is eazy, so ppl that used to it can't solve problems by themself or?

i rare spot anyone that is toxic (if somone is, prob don't do dps well and leave fast after 1 wipe, so you can fast replace that person)

if i pug, i usualy creating team by myself

And like a lot of raiders will also make a point of saying as well.. "it's not their job to train you" but they'll certainly expect you to perform to their standards regardless of that.

i never had problem with it, i usualy do raids with traning raids guilds and with 1 social guide that speak in my language

maybe similar behavior was once at fractals when i jumped from t3 to t4 (pug before i had any guild), that 1 person said my dps is too low (as i had random stats and used only flaemthrower)but it was when i was complatly new, and i runed more of open word setings, also i said when i joined, that i'm new, and if i do somethink wrong, to sayso evryone was fine to me, and explained evrythink by cool way

i think the worst think is not notify your team about your problems, so thay don't have suprise face while half way

Maybe i not used to that community yet but i see you point problems, that never existed for me

Are ppl at this game rly that casual and careless or just many ppl chosing play alone and gather only at pugs from wher all that bad experience coming?

I don't understend all of you

Maybe i sticked to hardcore/hard community at p2w game too long that teahced me how to take care of myself that experience you write is too much mindblowing for me

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.Sorry, but no! Every room (= raid instance) has exactly the same number of snacks and entertainment (=loot and bosses) and all the tables with snacks are equally distributed with some of them easier, some of them more difficult to reach (=bossfights).And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true. But then you actually made the point for us, that raiders aren't the problem, but all the non-raiders (and going from the (mostly unsupported) numbers thrown around in the forum non-raiders make up ~90-99% of the playerbase) not trying at all.

@silent killer.5732 said:The solution is to give more rewards for the people who carry the parties and even more when you have a noobs in your party.Adding a skill level will be a good start in that regard.Sadly, Arenanet thinks very differently. At the moment there's basically no reward for doing raidbosses more than once a week. So if i do my usual full clear on monday, i then spend the rest of the week actually paying for every single additional bossfight i do. And no, that's no exaggeration: You get ~1-4 mostly blue pieces of unidentified gear per boss, so ~10 silver if you're lucky. That's ~1/5th of the price for 30minutes of the usual power dps buff food (i don't even want to do the math for some of the account bound stuff).

@Teratus.2859 said:No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.And there it is again: The big lie about GW2 raiding.No raider restricts you from doing raids. Never! Not a single time! Because they are physically unable to do so, even if they wanted to.You are free to open a group at anytime with who ever you want and start raiding on exactly the same difficulty as everyone else does.

All raiders do is to refuse to WORK for you for free (also known as "deciding for myself who i spend my free time with"; strange concept isn't it), and let you capitalize on experience and practice they had to work themselves hard for. For most of them much harder than the "i can just read one of the 100 guides and watch some boss video, so i know what to do and have seen it before"-crowd nowadays.And even that's only half the truth as there are still enough raiders who help out ... 5-6 days a week after they have done their own weekly clear with people performing on the same level. (And -as described above- ignoring the fact that they usually pay for the privilige of helping less experienced players out)

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

What happened to the famous "play how you want"? And really now? I can't choose who I play with? I can't choose how to spend my time in a video game that I play to relax and kill time? Am I not allowed to make choices in a video game?

Of course you can choose! that's exactly the point the other side is making, You get to choose, and they don't get to due to the restrictions raiders have imposed on the content.You're not the one being pushed out of a game mode for "playing the wrong way" here, you're just defending those who do the pushing.And im just defending the criticisms of those who have been pushed out because I have personally witnessed the things many of them speak up about, the toxicity that you claim doesn't exist.I have seen it in various forms in various content against various people for the entirity of this game's lifespan, and even personally dealt with it as well.

Essentially (and I do hope this is unintentional) you're justifying a kind of bullying behaviour that excludes people from raiding, in order to disregard their complaints about that behaviour.

I'm not the one that wants to actively bully players into changing the way they play the game and calling them toxic when they don't play by your own expectations. Your argument in a simple phrase is: "anyone that doesn't conform to my own personal expectations is toxic", someday you might see how selfish and entitled that attitude is. How being disrespectful and inconsiderate of your fellow players makes you the one that is toxic and not the other way around. OR probably not.

As I said in my first post in this thread:

"I'm not the one that wants to actively bully players into changing the way they play the game and calling them toxic when they don't play by your own expectations."

That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.But then you're not the one being bullied out of an entire game mode for choosing to play how you want to play.. but you are telling those that are that their opinions and criticisms don't matter when they speak up about it, and that's the only real issue I've taken with anything you've said in our discussion.

I'm not the one being selfish or entitled here, I've made it pretty clear that I personally refuse to play with with certain players who's attitudes I percieve as being toxic.I don't want to be in their groups just as much as they don't want most people in theirs.All im doing is defending the opinions of people that you've literally said don't matter on the subject, that's all.

@maddoctor.2738 said:My only suggestion to help reduce this "problem": Stop replying to posts talking about this so called "toxicity".In almost every single thread talking about toxicity, the OP is either the actual toxic one, or we simply don't get enough information about the situation, leading to the "toxicity just happens, move along", when in reality it's unlikely that there is any form of actual toxicity at work (other than the one making the claims in the first place)And I don't think there is any way to stop players from posting about toxicity without knowing what toxicity is, they will always do it, just ignore them, or set them straight when the OP is toxic, and move on.

You've been nothing but negative, making half the posts in the last few pages adding almost nothing to the discussion, arguing with almost everyone. THIS is what I was talking about in my first post, a couple of forum posters blowing "problems" completely out of proportions and creating never ending discussions going in circles, that an external viewer might see and say "Look 15 pages of toxicity, there IS toxicity in the game!". I mean, the internet said something, so it must be true.

I'm not surprised you'd think that way considering you've straight up said you dismiss pretty much every opinion on the subject based on those opinions coming from people who havent been able to raid.Not that that even applies to me in the first place, I have successfully raided with my own groups so my opinions by your standards do count even though you don't like them and are still trying to dismiss them.

As for arguing with almost everyone, I made 1 comment based on 1 thing 1 person said who never even made a reply.It was you guys that first responded to my comment, which you could have just as easily ignored.If anything it was you guys started any "arguments" with me, and I'll quote "arguments" there since that's the word you used not me.As far as I'm concerned I don't regard any of this as an argument, a disagreement at best.

It's up to those that claim toxicity exists, to prove that it does.

And you failed to provide any kind of evidence that this toxicity exists inside the game, only your "personal experience", without any means to back it up.

Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level, the sheer amount of people who've spoken up about it, the amount of people like myself who have come out in support of those people's experiences and backed them up with our own.

You can dismiss that all you like but it doesn't change anything, people are going to keep having those experiences so long as there are players who behave that way towards them, and as long as they do they're going to keep talking about them and nobody can stop that.They literally have nothing to loose by speaking up about it, you on the other hand.. well you've seen the sad state of raiding these days.

Raids are quite literally in a "You need us, we don't need you" situation here, and im not saying that to be mean, it's just a bitter pill to swallow.

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@"Sigmoid.7082" said:For someone so concerned and against being told how to play you seen incredibly concerned with telling others how to play and use their time as long as it includes you.

You clearly haven't read all my posts here man.I've made it pretty clear that I don't want "elite" players in my groups just as much as they don't want inexperienced raiders in theirs.

I exclude myself! from their groups by choice not the other way around.

@"Teratus.2859" said:Some I'll agree but not all, there are a good number of us who make our own groups to avoid this very problem and still end up having to deal with toxic players who try to take them over.The vast majority of my personal negative experience with those kinds of players has been in groups I created, in fact I rarely ever join other peoples groups.

"All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.If that means I have to carry another player I will, and if that means we'll fail against something then so be it.. at least we'll have fun doing it.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:I've made it pretty clear that I don't want "elite" players in my groups just as much as they don't want inexperienced raiders in theirs.

That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

I'm not the one being selfish or entitled here, I've made it pretty clear that I personally refuse to play with with certain players who's attitudes I percieve as being toxic.

Now, let's flip the tables. It's toxic to keep the "elite" players from your group! They are not allowed to make their own group while excluding inexperienced players. How can't they see the hypocrisy? I'm not the one being entitled to the way I play!

And on the serious note... You can play however you want with whoever you want and nobody can't stop you from doing so. You also can't tell others how they should play or who should or should not invite to their squads. Both sides can be toxic. But it's also toxic to notice one-sided point of view at best.

Toxicity spreads when individuals don't meet whatever-the-flying-spaghetti-monster requirements somebody wishes their squad to have. But they join it anyway expecting... I don't know what.

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@skarpak.8594 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

i absolutly dictate who comes into my party and who doesn't when i open and organize said party...and it dosn't matter if its dungeons, openworld, raids or whatever content. i am not going to play with everyone and their mom if i do not want to and i will absolutly enforce the rules i put up.

Your party, sure.. a whole game mode though? no.

As i've pointed out in other posts, most of my experiences with these "toxic" players has been in my groups that they have attempted to take over and push others out of them.Something I won't tolerate and will result in me kicking them instead.

The general accepted rule is form your own groups if you want to be the one who controls who comes and goes.Ironically we all agree on that and yet some still argue the "toxic" element is only one sided when it's clearly not.

one of my rules for example is to never play with blocked people. sucks for them but i don't give a kitten. they will be kicked on sight.what are you going to do? report me to anet? try to change it?...go ahead and try it, silly person.

I'm not arguing against that, I have the exact same rule myself and my block list is full of gold sellers, AFK farmers, toxic players who have tried to take over my groups or verbally abused other players while in them etc, including salty WvW and PvP players i've annoyed in the past by killing them.

I don't believe in forgiving people so once someone earns a spot on my blacklist they're going to be there for life, and much like you in that regard I really couldn't give a damn about them lol

...content in this game is not restricted for anyone, and if there are restrictions (level restrictions for pvp for example), then its there for a reason.group rules =/= player restriction.

If it's part of the game i'll accept it, like the PvP level restriction.. just not player enforced rules that dictate how others have to play certain things.You can not invite me to your party, that's fine with me.And you can not want to play with me, that's also fine with me.But you can't tell me or anyone else that we have to play this way or that way if I want to do a Strike mission or a Raid, especially if you're the one joining our groups.. which has been the case for the majority of instances I have seen with so called "toxic" players.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

Actually a more accurate analogy would be someone joining a private room called "private room" without an invitation (or experience/kp) where every party member has said requirements except this certain individual who wondered in knowing it is indeed a private room. Everyone has right to have fun their own way. There is plenty more "rooms" around. Nobody is stopping you from throwing your own party in a private room with requirements that fit
You
.

Entitlement breeds toxicity.

At no time have I ever dismissed that some people join groups that they don't fit the requirements of.I agree that does happen, and I do not condone it.I just disagree that every single complaint made against raids is from players like that, which is largely what a lot of people on your side of the argument claim in most of these threads while simultaneously dismissing the complaints other people have had about raiders being toxic in their groups.

If anything i accept there is a toxic element on both sides, im just only focusing my attention on the side I consider to be the bigger problem from my personal experience.

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:I've made it pretty clear that I don't want "elite" players in my groups just as much as they don't want inexperienced raiders in theirs.

That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

I'm not the one being selfish or entitled here, I've made it pretty clear that I personally refuse to play with with certain players who's attitudes I percieve as being toxic.

Now, let's flip the tables. It's toxic to keep the "elite" players from your group! They are not allowed to make their own group while excluding inexperienced players. How can't they see the hypocrisy? I'm not the one being entitled to the way I play!

Hardly, they hold the same opinions, and mine comes as a direct result of their behaviour not the other way around.I'm very much the kind of person who treats people as they treat others, hence why i'll kick a good player for being a D to an inexperienced player and deal with the small handicap of having their inexperience in my group instead of the more experienced player who deserved the kick.

And on the serious note... You can play however you want with whoever you want and nobody can't stop you from doing so. You also can't tell others how they should play or who should or should not invite to their squads. Both sides can be toxic. But it's also toxic to notice one-sided point of view at best.

Toxicity spreads when individuals don't meet whatever-the-flying-spaghetti-monster requirements somebody wishes their squad to have. But they join it anyway expecting... I don't know what.

I see both sides, I also see that one side largely dismisses the entire argument from the other which is the main thing I have a problem with.As MadDoc even admitted they think it's perfectly ok to dismiss peoples opinions on the grounds of being excluded from playing the content.

That leans into what Ooops.8694 even admitted about accessability and I quote:"And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true."

You say nothing is stopping us from forming our own groups and yes technically we can start our own groups and advertise them.But can we ever get a full party? no, very very rarely we can in most cases, even after waiting hours it's often a failure.The last time I tried to pug a raid in fact I had an all welcome LFG going for about 2 hours and only 3 people joined, and none of them were in the party at the same time either.

This problem is a direct result of the stigma raids has gotten because of the raid community's "toxic" element, most people having been driven away by negative experiences so they don't even look at the raid LFG anymore and even when some do there are so few at any given time that playing the content becomes next to impossible because they just can't get a group.

At that point their chances of success or failure in the actual content becomes completely irrelevant, they can't even get though the door to play it in the first palce.That is a big problem from where I sit and you regular raiders have suffered for it with a low population, resulting in raids not getting the time and resources you want Anet to give it.

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@Ooops.8694 said:Sorry, but no! Every room (= raid instance) has exactly the same number of snacks and entertainment (=loot and bosses) and all the tables with snacks are equally distributed with some of them easier, some of them more difficult to reach (=bossfights).And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true. But then you actually made the point for us, that raiders aren't the problem, but all the non-raiders (and going from the (mostly unsupported) numbers thrown around in the forum non-raiders make up ~90-99% of the playerbase) not trying at all.

@"Teratus.2859" said:No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.And there it is again: The big lie about GW2 raiding.No raider restricts you from doing raids. Never! Not a single time! Because they are physically unable to do so, even if they wanted to.You are free to open a group at anytime with who ever you want and start raiding on exactly the same difficulty as everyone else does.

I should have clarified, the snacks were not a stand in for the loot/rewards.. was more a stand in for the allure or incentive for people to try raiding.In this case the raiders hording the snacks in the private room being an analogy for the raiders being the only people with incentive to play the content.Apologies for not specifying that one, I completely understand how it could have been mistaken for raid loot/rewards instead.. that was my bad.

You were right about the entertainment being the content though, and that there are technecally other private rooms.. they just have a minimum party requirement of 10 people to access which is hard to get when you don't have the snacks lolI think we can drop the whole anaology thing now though xD

Ultimately a lot of people have been put off raiding or even trying to, that's true but it's not because "raids are hard" from my experience most complaints I've always seen are "raids are too exclusive".At this point the best option people have is to find a training guild, which is an option but all of them work on the same player rules as the main raiding community.Basically "play how we want you to play" which isn't fun for a lot of people and a big turn off.

For those who want to raid for fun but also play how they want to play, there isn't really any options at all for them, and that I would say is the main issue for a lot of people who would otherwise get into playing raids.

You would probably call it "casual" raiding.. and I'd probably agree with the term, but what we can both agree on is that this doesn't even exist in Gw2 as an option for those players, Even strikes which came along to entice more people into raid like content with easier raid like content ended up picking up the same issues many had with raids in the first place, and now people also feel excluded from that content too.

This is the same issue that once plagued dungeons and Fractals too many years ago as i've pointed out a few times now.There was always an "elite" community in that content that excluded others based on what they wanted in their groups.. but they were never as strict as the current raid community is.So eventually a more casual community was able to build up as Dungeons and Fractals as well so there was a place for everyone to enjoy the content.Raids has failed entirely to build up that casual community and now suffers this low pop and low interest problem.

All raiders do is to refuse to WORK for you for free (also known as "deciding for myself who i spend my free time with"; strange concept isn't it), and let you capitalize on experience and practice they had to work themselves hard for. For most of them much harder than the "i can just read one of the 100 guides and watch some boss video, so i know what to do and have seen it before"-crowd nowadays.And even that's only half the truth as there are still enough raiders who help out ... 5-6 days a week after they have done their own weekly clear with people performing on the same level. (And -as described above- ignoring the fact that they usually pay for the privilige of helping less experienced players out)

The only way anyone works for someone else for free is if that someone else spends practically 100% of their time with their face in the dirt.. not saying that doesn't happen though i've seen it too lol.For the most part so long as everyone survives they are technically contributing, it's more a matter of how much compared to others and what difference is acceptable to you.Personally I don't care if I have to carry people, in fact I quite enjoy acting as other's safety net, but that's not for everyone.. I get that.

The "i can just read one of the 100 guides and watch some boss video, so i know what to do and have seen it before" thing is actually something I agree with you on.

I am 100% of the mind that watching guides and videos about stuff means absolutely nothing compared to actually having hands on experience with it.This was actually one of the biggest arguments I made a long time ago for promoting rewardless easy mode raids for training purposes.Exactly the same bosses, with the same mechanics.. just no one shot kills so people could play and experience the content in a less punishing environment so they could lean what to do and how each boss works quicker and easier then take that experience into the real thing later on which would be a big help for a lot of people.I still to this day firmly believe this would be a good thing for the game and might even make a lot of people reconsider trying to raid, thus possibly fixing your low population problem.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

What happened to the famous "play how you want"? And really now? I can't choose who I play with? I can't choose how to spend my time in a video game that I play to relax and kill time? Am I not allowed to make choices in a video game?

Of course you can choose! that's exactly the point the other side is making, You get to choose, and they don't get to due to the restrictions raiders have imposed on the content.You're not the one being pushed out of a game mode for "playing the wrong way" here, you're just defending those who do the pushing.

This is untrue. No one is pushing any one out. Every player has the exactly same ability to raid, make parties, take on the content.

What you are equating is players with better social structures in game, more experience, more connections, ability to fill more role and thus be more desired, etc. to have a better chance at clearing content or get taken in a group versus someone who has none of those things. That's called specialization and it's exists everywhere where challenge is present. That's not denying anyone else or imposing restrictions.

This gets brought up every single time, but all it takes to raid is 9 other players of similar mind. That's it. There are multiple ways to approach this, but let's narrow them down to 2:A. approach this with the mindset: "the group is supposed to take me along because I want to", and you will likely run into issuesB. approach this with the mindset:"I will provide the group with something they require", and you will likely run into no issues.

That's all it is. There is no gating. No one is holding a gun to new players and restricting their entry. On the contrary, many experienced raiders offer help and trainings.

Choice is not a 1 sided coin. Freedom of choice means you have to also respect the choice someone else might make.

@Teratus.2859 said:And im just defending the criticisms of those who have been pushed out because I have personally witnessed the things many of them speak up about, the toxicity that you claim doesn't exist.I have seen it in various forms in various content against various people for the entirity of this game's lifespan, and even personally dealt with it as well.

Except you are not defending any one. You are making excuses why some players are to be allowed to dictate other how they should play and whom they should play with.

If I don't want to play with someone that is MY CHOICE. The other person might disagree, be unhappy, complain, argue, but in the end, they have no say in the matter. The flip side to this: if someone does not want to play with me, I might disagree, be unhappy, complain, argue, but in the end, I have no say in the matter.

That's how this would look if it were equal for all sides.

That leans into what Ooops.8694 even admitted about accessability and I quote:"And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true."

You say nothing is stopping us from forming our own groups and yes technically we can start our own groups and advertise them.But can we ever get a full party? no, very very rarely we can in most cases, even after waiting hours it's often a failure.The last time I tried to pug a raid in fact I had an all welcome LFG going for about 2 hours and only 3 people joined, and none of them were in the party at the same time either.

Sorry, but this is akin to someone saying they want to fly to the moon and after jumping for 3 hours they were no closer to their goal than in the beginning.

If you were serious about raiding and wanted to make your own group, you would advertise, collect names, setup a date, maybe create a guild with multiple players to coordinate. That's what it takes if you want to start from scratch with no ones help. Yes, it's tough, it always has been tough. Welcome to the beginning of raiding in this game at the start of HoT.

Lucky for you, there are training discords, guilds, outside materials, even PUG trainings, etc. setup by other players who are further down the road than you.

You not being able to convince 9 other players to do something together is YOUR failure, but it might shed a light on how difficult it is to coordinate and gather like minded individuals. It might also shed a light on how little players actually want to join "all welcome" groups for challenging content, because in the end, most players do not enjoy wiping for 2 hours.

What ever it is, as long as no experienced raiders came along and sabotaged your LFG, this has nothing to do with other players in any way preventing you from entering the content.

EDIT:

This problem is a direct result of the stigma raids has gotten because of the raid community's "toxic" element, most people having been driven away by negative experiences so they don't even look at the raid LFG anymore and even when some do there are so few at any given time that playing the content becomes next to impossible because they just can't get a group.

Just going to add this because your assumption as to why no one joined is far fetched. The "problem" with an "all welcome" tag for challenging content is:A. it indicates that the group leader is either not willing or able to create a proper functioning group, which significantly lowers successB. it lacks a distinctive feature as to what the group will do. Is it a training? Is it a wing clear?C. many players don't want to start from scratch. They want to have an easier time with more experienced players helping out. Chances are low in all welcome groups this might be the caseD. most experienced players will stay clear of an "all welcome" group because most have more fun things to do than wipe for 2 hours

In essence, tagging up as "all welcome" for challenging content is like poison to the LFG. That has nothing to do with players thinking raiders are toxic.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

On one hand you complain that others want players to conform to their ideas and call it toxic, and then your entire argument is about forcing players to conform to YOUR own expectations. Talking about hypocrisy.

Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level, the sheer amount of people who've spoken up about it, the amount of people like myself who have come out in support of those people's experiences and backed them up with our own.

On the forums yes? In game? Maybe on some level. But that's THE question which you fail to answer. Is it an actual/factual problem or a perceived problem by people like you blowing things out of proportion on forums? I'd say the latter. How many times in the last 8 years have you experienced toxicity? As for your sheer amount of people who've spoken about it, I'd say once more than the vast majority where the toxic ones when they made their posts about it. And then the threads where hijacked by people like you, projecting their OWN arguments that have little to nothing with the situation experienced.

You can dismiss that all you like but it doesn't change anything, people are going to keep having those experiences so long as there are players who behave that way towards them, and as long as they do they're going to keep talking about them and nobody can stop that.

That's the unfortunate part and I don't think there is any solution to the problem of very vocal posters talking about situations they never experienced and calling them facts and then labeling entire segments of the player base. Without a shred of evidence to back up their claims. Like: "Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level" arguments like this, with zero evidence to back up, is what creates toxicity in the first place.

This is why it's called perceived toxicity, it exists outside the game, inflamed, enlarged and shared by players like yourself. It's like those internet trolls sharing rumors and fake news and spread them all over, without a shred of evidence to back anything up and then the sheep read it and say "someone said it on the internet so it must be true". See you in game where this toxicity you are talking about isn't an issue.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

What happened to the famous "play how you want"? And really now? I can't choose who I play with? I can't choose how to spend my time in a video game that I play to relax and kill time? Am I not allowed to make choices in a video game?

Of course you can choose! that's exactly the point the other side is making, You get to choose, and they don't get to due to the restrictions raiders have imposed on the content.You're not the one being pushed out of a game mode for "playing the wrong way" here, you're just defending those who do the pushing.

This is untrue. No one is pushing any one out. Every player has the exactly same ability to raid, make parties, take on the content.

That's not true though, they don't have the same accessability to those things, if they did they wouldn't struggle trying to get into this content like they have nor experienced all the negative experiences they've complained about.As I said in another post i've first hand experience with that by making "All Welcome" groups and having LFG's going for hours without even half a party forming.It's because there is no "casual" community pressence in raids like there is with dungeons and fractals and that is a big problem in this game where the vast majority of the playerbase is described as "casual".

What you are equating is players with better social structures in game, more experience, more connections, ability to fill more role and thus be more desired, etc. to have a better chance at clearing content or get taken in a group versus someone who has none of those things. That's called specialization and it's exists everywhere where challenge is present. That's not denying anyone else or imposing restrictions.

You're not entirely wrong but it definitely does impose restrictions, specially in a game as casual based as Gw2 is.It's true this concept exists in many other games as well but the divide is often much smaller and raids tend to cater to and be accessable to a significant portion of those games player bases.

With Gw2 it's kind of the opposite and raids only cater to a very small minority instead hence your low pop problem.The only 2 ways I can think of that would change that without adding any kind of easy mode, is either Anet nukes the raid content difficulty to be more "casual" friendly thus diminishing the meta requirements that exist in riads atm.. but that would justifyably result in outrage from the raiders.Or raiders start being more willing to take on people they don't want to.. which is equally as outrageous to raiders as well.

Neither are good, even I agree to that.But if you want raids to be a bigger part of this game then you need more people playing it, that's just a hard truth im afraid.And that's not going to be an easy thing to pull off either when so many people have had negative experiences with other players while trying to raid and have thus become completley disinterested in the content as a result.. hence the feeling of being "pushed/bullied out" I was talking about in another post.

But like I also said in another post, raiders are the only ones who have something to loose here, nobody else does.To the vast majority if no more raids or strikes were added to the game, they wouldn't care.. that's why you need them.

This gets brought up every single time, but all it takes to raid is 9 other players of similar mind. That's it. There are multiple ways to approach this, but let's narrow them down to 2:A. approach this with the mindset: "the group is supposed to take me along because I want to", and you will likely run into issuesB. approach this with the mindset:"I will provide the group with something they require", and you will likely run into no issues.

That's all it is. There is no gating. No one is holding a gun to new players and restricting their entry. On the contrary, many experienced raiders offer help and trainings.

Choice is not a 1 sided coin. Freedom of choice means you have to also respect the choice someone else might make.

Getting 9 players with a similar mind isn't easy though, specially when the vast majority of people who were originally open to raiding have lost that interest due to their experiences with it.

The only real options to get into it now are, Join a training group, largely found through guilds.. but I have never seen one that encourages you to come as you are and play what you think works for you so you can figure out your raid build on your own.

Instead they always have rules, restrictions and demands.. because they all follow the same player imposed meta's, rules and restrictions as the typical raiders do.They're not "All are Welcome" as they often proclaim to be but rather "All are Welcome so long as you conform to our demands" which is not the same thing.

In regards to A. though, I don't agree with those players either nor am I arguing for them.Joining specified groups that you don't meet the requirements for is just foolish, I do not support this behaviour either and have stated so many times.

@Teratus.2859 said:And im just defending the criticisms of those who have been pushed out because I have personally witnessed the things many of them speak up about, the toxicity that you claim doesn't exist.I have seen it in various forms in various content against various people for the entirity of this game's lifespan, and even personally dealt with it as well.

Except you are not defending any one. You are making excuses why some players are to be allowed to dictate other how they should play and whom they should play with.

If I don't want to play with someone that is MY CHOICE. The other person might disagree, be unhappy, complain, argue, but in the end, they have no say in the matter. The flip side to this: if someone does not want to play with me, I might disagree, be unhappy, complain, argue, but in the end, I have no say in the matter.

That's how this would look if it were equal for all sides.

And yet im not arguing for you to be forced to play with anyone you don't want to, I reserve that right myself.

All im defending is the complaints and criticisms people have had with "toxic" behavious in this games endgame content which is something I have witnessed myself many times over the 8 years i've been playing this game.The main reason for that being that too often I see people completely invalidate those criticisms by saying the problems don't exist or they should just be ignored.People with those attitudes are doing more harm to raiding than anything else is, they are essentially personifying that very "toxicity" that people complain about in the first place and contributing the the so called "agenda" they claim is being pushed against raiding in the first place.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

On one hand you complain that others want players to conform to their ideas and call it toxic, and then your entire argument is about forcing players to conform to YOUR own expectations. Talking about hypocrisy.

That is not my argument at all, im not the one forcing anyone to play my way or anyone elses, that's what you guys do.I just pointed out the hypocricy of you claiming that in defense of a community that does demand others conform to your standands if they want to play a whole game mode that you guys have essentially created a monopoly on.

My main argument is and always has been that there is a toxic player element on your side which has effected the playerbases interest in the game mode.. resulting in the low population problem raids has.

Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level, the sheer amount of people who've spoken up about it, the amount of people like myself who have come out in support of those people's experiences and backed them up with our own.

On the forums yes? In game? Maybe on some level. But that's THE question which you fail to answer. Is it an actual/factual problem or a perceived problem by people like you blowing things out of proportion on forums? I'd say the latter. How many times in the last 8 years have you experienced toxicity? As for your sheer amount of people who've spoken about it, I'd say once more than the vast majority where the toxic ones when they made their posts about it. And then the threads where hijacked by people like you, projecting their OWN arguments that have little to nothing with the situation experienced.

You're asking me to recall very specific details from multiple different instances over an 8 year period lol that's just not going to happen im afraid.The best I can give you is:"How many times in the last 8 years have you experienced toxicity?" Against me? probably around 20-40 times, most of it in the earlier years of the game.Against others that I have personally witnessed? probably in the ballpark of 300 or so cases.. but that is a rough estimate at best, I don't have the exact numbers nor any way to obtain them so ultimately the figures are irrelevant, but having seen a lot of it is not.

And this is a thread about toxicity in raiding, perceived or otherwise doesn't really matter since it's all relevant.The OP said in their first post."When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy."

This is an absolutely true statement and one of the biggest reasons I know a lot of people don't raid nor try to anymore, which is why it's difficult for others like myself who don't want to play with the "elite" raider crowd, to find enough people to raid with in the first place.. ergo that monopoly I was talking about earlier.People perceeve raiders are toxic because some of them are and get defended when people call them out for it.

I came here and commented because I know and have seen that there is a "toxic" element contributing to the reasons people don't raid.. and i've seen many people state as much more or less since raids were added to this game.You've been the one most of all in this thread that has personified that toxicity by stating that these peoples opinions and criticisms don't even matter and should be dismissed/disregarded..To me, you became the proof of toxicity that you asked for when you made that statement.

You can dismiss that all you like but it doesn't change anything, people are going to keep having those experiences so long as there are players who behave that way towards them, and as long as they do they're going to keep talking about them and nobody can stop that.

That's the unfortunate part and I don't think there is any solution to the problem of very vocal posters talking about situations they never experienced and calling them facts and then labeling entire segments of the player base. Without a shred of evidence to back up their claims. Like: "Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level" arguments like this, with zero evidence to back up, is what creates toxicity in the first place.

This is why it's called perceived toxicity, it exists outside the game, inflamed, enlarged and shared by players like yourself. It's like those internet trolls sharing rumors and fake news and spread them all over, without a shred of evidence to back anything up and then the sheep read it and say "someone said it on the internet so it must be true". See you in game where this toxicity you are talking about isn't an issue.

Likewise there is likely no solution to the problem of raiders talking about situations they have never experienced and instantly calling them falsehoods either.. it goes both ways im afraid.I know the toxic players you are talking about exist.. those who join groups they shouldn't etc I've seen them myself and i've never disputed their existence.

It's the other side that doesn't get the same fair treatment.. and it's people like me and others I can relate to theough shared experience who get our experiences dismissed entirely by people just because they havent personally experienced it.. it's annoying considering how long these "toxicity" elements, Both of them! have been in the game.I don't know when you started playing Gw2, but it was well known in dungeon content back in the day coming from the Meta crowds as well as fractals when that first came in too.Raids are just the new shiney... well specifically strikes are the new shiny but you get the point.

If this problem didn't exist as you claim, then the whole concept of "elitism" which has existed in almsot every multiplayer game ever! wouldn't even exist.It does though for a reason."toxicity" is basically nothing more than just a replacement word for the same behaviours, largely due to it's current popularity in modern society.15 years ago we said elitist, now it's toxic.. there's no real difference.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:That is not my argument at all, im not the one forcing anyone to play my way or anyone elses, that's what you guys do.

Your entire argument is to force players to play your way though. You are against freedom of choice, you are against free will and want some mindless drones playing the game like it's a job, without any say in how to play or who to play with. Your hypocrisy is overflowing all over your arguments.

My main argument is and always has been that there is a toxic player element on your side which has effected the playerbases interest in the game mode.. resulting in the low population problem raids has.

Lack of developer effort, misleading comments and false expectations is what led to low population in Raids. Oh and lack of overall game population. Also, players like you spreading "toxicity" arguments luring players away and creating the myth of the toxic playerbase.

I don't know when you started playing Gw2, but it was well known in dungeon content back in the day coming from the Meta crowds as well as fractals when that first came in too.

I started around beta. "Well known" needs some reference. I'm willing to bet it's people like you spreading that "toxicity" argument on the forums about dungeons and fractals, same way you are doing it now about Raids.

If this problem didn't exist as you claim, then the whole concept of "elitism" which has existed in almsot every multiplayer game ever! wouldn't even exist.

Maybe because this concept of "toxicity" exists well on the internet? Someone taking a rumor or fake news and spreading it, making it go viral, doesn't make it any less of a rumor or fake news.

And this is a thread about toxicity in raiding, perceived or otherwise doesn't really matter since it's all relevant.

You should reread the opening post of the thread.

The perceived toxicity that gets complained about. Because it doesn't really matter that it's a false observationWhen new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy.

This is about people like you spreading toxicity and scaring people away, damaging the game's population as a whole. When you realize your hypocritical arguments are the reason this perceived toxicity exists, and not the other way around, you will figure out that the problem is people like you, vocal posters on forums posting about things they have no clue about.

And since you brought it up, I haven't seen much discussion on the actual topic yet, how to reduce the effect of the perceived toxicity on the game. I stand by my initial post, the best solution to the forum toxicity is to ignore it, I think it's time I take my own advice. Until there is discussion on the actual problem with suggestions how to solve it, instead of arguing over nothing.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:And since you brought it up, I haven't seen much discussion on the actual topic yet, how to reduce the effect of the perceived toxicity on the game. I stand by my initial post, the best solution to the forum toxicity is to ignore it, I think it's time I take my own advice. Until there is discussion on the actual problem with suggestions how to solve it, instead of arguing over nothing.

It's important to pinpoint the source of named "toxicity". We are battling with the symptoms instead of the cause of this disease. I tried to do something of a sort with my last thread which revealed some problems within the community. To be honest, I don't think there is a cure. This type of mindset is hardcoded in some people's minds. Kindly asking of them to ... let's say "behave" - just like in Teratu's case might help the situation. But there are others, more well-spoken people on the forums who do it better than me :)

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