Should dps meters get banned?

[Armen.1483]

@Halbarz.3854 said:

@Armen.1483 said:

@Halbarz.3854 said:

The whole "I will help people that do not have the required DPS", is something you might tell yourself (and maybe you do) but the majority of players will just kick and that's it. I would strongly advise people to stop using this as an argument, I have seen a lot of people bashing or kicking the DPS in Fractals even for the smallest difference. ... they were also helping I guess?They were talking about training. That is the whole point of trainings. If you've ever been in a raid training you'd know that nobody will ever get kicked of the training as the success of the training isn't necessairly in the boss kill. And also nobody will ever kick anyone for

small

dps difference especially in fractals. Maybe for a small dps. People who do small dps are nuisive as someone else who is actually pulling their weight could have been in their place. Contrary to open world, instanced content is limited by the number of players. It is the whole point of instanced content.So anyone claiming it is a must, or that they cannot complete content without it ... should ask themselves if the game is the problem or if they are.Maybe they should rather ask themselves: are they really able to complete the content or are they leeching on players that do ? Why blame others of your own fault ?

Let's face it: most people that complain about this stuff are leechers and they are the ones spreading the toxicity because they are often getting kicked and are getting salty about it. Instead of wasting your time on forums pointing out on some unreal evil people that kicked you because you lacked 2k dps, you should rather go learn to play the game and never get kicked again. Because if you pull your weight, nobody will ever talk dps with you whether you have it or not !

You are not even willing to consider the fact that it has a negative side or the potential for it. that is clear in your response.As a training raid leader, you should be the number one person aware of the negatives when a meter is used in groups outside of "training"I don't think you understand what dps meter is capable of. It is called dps meter, but oddly enough it is not about dps only. ARCdps is a gem for training groups. It actually makes them much more effective.

To sum up: people who don't want to carry leechers are not toxic by definition. Only toxic people are toxic. And from my experience toxicity comes from the leechers and it is understandable and sad.

I never said that I got kicked right? Also hasn't happened :astonished:, I do not leech, etc.What's the problem then ?but some claim you NEED it

(as a requirement)

,The person I replied to pretty much claims this. So please read the whole conversation :)He said you NEED dps to kill bosses, not the meter. I am not sure anyone here requires others have arcdps. Literally nobody said that arcdps is a requirement. I have read the whole conversation, haven't found anything like that, pls link/quote who said that arcdps is required to play the game. Need doesn't mean required, those are completely different words.Again you are saying training tool, yet you are completely avoiding the negative aspects of it ... a lot of people also abuse it. It can be a great tool, but people can also be tools, unfortunately. A tool such as ArcDPS which is not required to finish the content in the game only makes toxic people even more toxic.What are the negative aspects ? How people abuse arcdps ? I want to know that.Also, do you really believe that everyone that says: "I help people with it'' really does so? it is an easy thing to say but rarely gets done.I have no reason to not believe the person who claimed he does raid trainings and if he does he most likely uses dps meter, many raid trainers do that. Honestly go ask any raid trainer if he uses dps meters to help players ? Now is it the only use of dps meters ? Definitely not ! For example I never lead trainings so I don't help others or coach to improve their dps. Maybe very rarely with guildies. But it is not the primary reason I use the dps meter.When you say: "To sum up: people who don't want to carry leechers are not toxic by definition. Only toxic people are toxic. And from my experience toxicity comes from the leechers and it is understandable and sad."this says a lot, the fact that you believe that toxicity comes from leechers is just sad. You are refusing to admit that toxicity can

also

come from those using the tool, a lot of people cannot handle being competitive very well. A lot of competitive people will use this tool, and a lot of people cannot handle being competitive very well, they become toxic.I don't believe anything lol, it is in my experience. Experiencing is not believing.

I say it again ofc toxicity can come from anyone, BUT I have never seen a person who uses the dps meter and harrases or abuses a person by having a piece of information that that person is not pulling his weight. It is just not logic, nobody would do that. Why would anyone harrass smb for a low dps ? What happens there is that he just kicks him with or without a reason why. Telling someone "I don't want to play with you for x reason" is not abusive toxic or anything. It is natural. Kicking with no explenation is not toxic either.Again if there is any abusive language in the game, it doesn't matter who is using it, they should be blocked and reported regardless they use dps meters or not. Can dps meters create situations where this can happen ? Ofc they can. I never denied that. But those situations are created by the kicked players, not the kickers. Maybe your experience is different, but I don't see any logic in harrassing a person for a "bad dps", I can see a logic of asking him to leave or kicking him which has nothing to do with toxicity.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what i learned from all this:

being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

so many laughs .

btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic

being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.

Based on this logic, whether or not an individual is "leeching" is based on whether or not they cause the group to fail. So, I guess just make sure if you're going to leech you choose groups that are good enough to carry you! And if they aren't good enough to carry you, make sure you call them toxic and kick them from the group when they mention your performance as an issue.

[Armen.1483]

@Halbarz.3854 said:

Example: last week I was doing Fractal 99 as support, one of the DPS was lower than the rest (not by much) we were still doing fine, to be honest. Yet the two other DPS started flaming the guy and bashing him. I have reported them yet ... they are still hanging around daily ... So if you want tools such as ArcDPS , you should also want that Anet puts rules in place and takes action when there is abuse ... which they do not do.

So I believe that instead of asking then tool banned or not, people should ask if Anet is taking it to easy when it comes to player behavior.If there would be more strictness on this part, you would see a very different answer to the Poll.So what exactly the two said to the guy that was a little underperfoming (if so) ? What did they exactly say ? I am just curious how can you flame a (presumably) bad player for being bad ?Oh and btw Anet already put the rules of conduct. Abuse is abuse and should not be tolerated. Again nothing to do with dps meters. For example there is much toxicity in PVP. So should we delete PVP too ? Or they need to specifically mention that abusing in pvp is also bad ? WIth that logic they should completely delete Lion's Arch.

[SeikeNz.3526]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what i learned from all this:

being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

so many laughs .

btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic

being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.

Based on this logic, whether or not an individual is "leeching" is based on whether or not they cause the group to fail. So, I guess just make sure if you're going to leech you choose groups that are good enough to carry you! And if they aren't good enough to carry you, make sure you call them toxic and kick them from the group when they mention your performance as an issue.

no that's not the logic, that's called ad hominem, try harder.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what i learned from all this:

being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

so many laughs .

btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic

being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.

Based on this logic, whether or not an individual is "leeching" is based on whether or not they cause the group to fail. So, I guess just make sure if you're going to leech you choose groups that are good enough to carry you! And if they aren't good enough to carry you, make sure you call them toxic and kick them from the group when they mention your performance as an issue.

no that's not the logic, that's called ad hominem, try harder.

So it is not your position that group members cannot decide for themselves whether a member of the group is leeching based upon performance? I'm pretty sure that is exactly what you were saying.

[SdoRy.6839]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rulesWithout the numbers showing their actual performance how do you know they are bad?

if someone say on chat that party failed because of the dps you already know he is bad, simple as that, the party always fail because of failed mechanics, the only way to fail because of bad dps would be with a timer to kill it.

True, but sometimes having superior dps makes the fight a lot easier, so why settle for a hard fight when I can have it easy AND quick

if someone say on the chat the dps is bad and trash talk to someone change build is auto kick for being bad.

If you play a dps role in fractals and do less than 10k dps you're bad. Sorry to break it to you, but it's true, and it doesn't make me bad. Trashtalking someone is not okay, neither from "high-dps-players" to "low-dps-players", nor from you to someone enjoying meta and speedclears.

you don't need arcdps to see if someone is auto atking a.k.a leeching

True, though you can be leeching and do terrible dps even with a perfect rotation, for example if you have ministrel gear. That is still leeching, if my group lfg asked for a specific requirement. (lfging for a dps player usually means looking for a player that is capable of doing acceptable dps numbers, somewhere between 20k and 35k)

you don't need arcdps to see if someone keep dying because he can't do mechanics.

True, and has nothing to do with this topic. People who don't do any dps can fail mechanics, people who do dps can fail mechanics. In fact, as mentioned by others plenty of times, if a player fails mechanics he can almost never achieve good dps numbers, so people doing good dps are almost always successfully doing mechanics...

you don't need arcdps if the healer is not healing enough.

But in your words, if the healer is not healing enough its not the healers fault but your own fault for not doing the mechanics or dodging attacks, as an elitist toxic dps player? That's what you said!

you don't need the best dps on bosses without a timer.

No, you dont need it. But what if I want it? What if I want to do fractals or raids quickly, maybe because I don't have a lot of time? Or because I don't see why I should have to invest a lot of time into clearing them, when I can also do it quickly with competent players? What if I want to push myself to achieve the best I can do? To get better, faster, break records? What if that is what I enjoy? I can't force other people to play that way. But you can't force me to not play that way.

you only need numbers to see performance if you want to speed run not to clear the content, you can't force people to speed run contents.

Well here's the thing: you also can't force people to slow run contents. You can't force people to do anything. Which means, if I make a group, I can set my own expectations to that group, and if I want to speed run a fractal, and you join my group, then you either help me speedrun it or I kick you, simple as that :)

arcdps is not being used to self improvement, people are using it to keep checking others as a harassment tool, trying to force speed runs and saying if don't do the "meta" you can't clear the content what is the biggest lie ever.

I have used arcdps to see my own performance and self improve, it has helped a lot. And I have never, ever harassed someone for not doing enough dps. Not once. So you're either just wrong, or simply lying. Now, do you admit to being wrong, or do you want to call yourself a liar? Your choice.And again, people have said this countless of times, I don't know if you can read, but here it is again: People don't care if you play "meta" as long as you do your job. If your role is dps, you should deal damage. People don't care whether that is with the "meta" power soulbeast or the absolutely "off-meta" power chrono (believe me, I play power chrono, no one cares. I also have my own build variant, still out dps most other people. So stop complaining and claim that people force you to play "meta" only. It's a lie.)

[AliamRationem.5172]

@DesiRe.1348 said:Well here's the thing: you also can't force people to slow run contents. You can't force people to do anything. Which means, if I make a group, I can set my own expectations to that group, and if I want to speed run a fractal, and you join my group, then you either help me speedrun it or I kick you, simple as that :)

^This. It's really that simple. Be considerate. Don't be an entitled jerk whether that means nitpicking dps values in a group that is having no issues or demanding that a group change their strategy because you can't keep up.

[DreamyAbaddon.3265]

@AgentMoore.9453 said:Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me.

Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion.

This right here. I agree with this.

[Thornwolf.9721]

No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

[yann.1946]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example?

[SdoRy.6839]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

Hackers? That doesn't have anything to do with QoL mods.

If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist;

So no game ever should implement any new feature ever, because, if it's not implemented yet it doesn't need to exist? Way to go, who needs innovation anyways right?

This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown.

Sounds like macros, which are forbidden, even in GW2. Anything 3rd party related that gives you an in-game advantage over other players is forbidden and a bannable offense.

the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high.

Any source on that or just another ridiculous claim that just gets thrown around everywhere?

Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

Well they went ahead and gave the okay for arcdps. Which is essentially the same as if they developed it themselves - except it doesn't cost them time, or effort. And messing with the... code? Do you even know what a mod is or how it works? ArcDps just reads game files that the game gives out already anyways and just displays them in a more ordered fashion. It doesn't mess with any code whatsoever.

[waxx.3619]

@naiasonod.9265 said:I voted yes, but only because I think Anet should be putting that support directly into the game.

They put in golems to test on, but couldn't be bothered to supply the point of using them?

Do they want people to suck at this game or not?

When they decide they're actually committed to fostering players that have the tools in game to not suck, they'll supply this themselves, and they bloody well should.

We should totally have meters, and a lot of other tools to help players reach the ship levels required for higher end fractals and raiding.

But neither Anet nor any other MMO developers I know of seem to be aware that they need to teach people to play their game if their game is supposed to be difficult and they want people to play nicely together.

Leave it up to the players to create the tools and be responsible for bridging those skill gaps and many won't try to cross then at all.

Then you'll just wind up with lots of players that never do fractals or raid ever and would sooner set their computers on fire than even think about doing so because they know they're not skillful enough and they refuse to trust per players to help them without ridiculing then into fine red mist every step of the way.

If Anet ever decides they want to provide the proper support tools that advanced content such as raids and higher tier fractals consist of, that would be great.

ArcDPS doesn't tell anyone skilled anything useful, and it doesn't tell anyone that isn't skilled how to get better.

It's a very nice way to confirm that you hit hard a lot or that you don't.

If you'd like to know why or what to do about it in the case of you're not making the numbers be bigger, you're either on your own or your better find some players that will help you sort that out.

Anet takes no responsibility what so ever for helping you get better at playing their game, which is either on purpose and they really just don't care or it isn't on purpose and I don't know what they do with their time.

I really wish game devs would provide the tools that have been established as being standard and customary to support skill development in their games, but they always seem to think they're being magnanimous by leaving that up to the players.

Looks like they're just doing nothing at all and being incredibly lazy about it to me.

Exactly I will vote Yes to remove third party dps meter if Anet provided us one similar to ArcDPS. I mean they already have a system to measure your dps on the golem why not make it a full fledge feature.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

@waxx.3619 said:I mean they already have a system to measure your dps on the golem why not make it a full fledge feature.

Why would they bother if it is already coded by a player and they approved that work?Official build templates replaced the known addon for arc because they monetized the feature.And there seems not to be any way to monetize displaying dps. Simple

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

Only these mods do not affect the game's code so what you describe isn't happening here. No "mod" alters game code to offer any kind of gameplay advantage. And you really think if Arenanet comes out and says "DPS meters are now bannable offence" that will cause HACKERS to stop hacking? Hacking has nothing to do with READING memory, when you are READING memory (what these tools do) you cannot affect the game in any way or form. Hackers actually "hack" the game and provide to themselves an advantage, teleporting and such.

I imagine these hackers if Arenanet decides to ban these external tools: "Oh no, they found us! We can't hack anymore because they will ban us qqqqqq". As if hacking isn't ALREADY a bannable offence.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@DreamyAbaddon.3265 said:

@AgentMoore.9453 said:Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me.

Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion.

This right here. I agree with this.

You can agree with it, but it is factually inaccurate. The data isn't yours. You might as well argue that you should be able to make your character invisible in PvE content so that players can't observe and judge you based on that.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.But nobody is forcing you to play meta. Just as nobody is forcing you to do decent dps - you are always free to leave if the requirements are not to your liking.

joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.No, second is leeching as well. If you do bad dps, ou do bad dps, no matter the reason. If you want to experiment, join the "casual run" or "all welcome" groups, or go with friends that are okay with you not contributing. But using a group that expects someone actually doing their job as a carry so you can "experiment" freely is leeching.

asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.Depends on the boss, and the dps difference. Seriously, if, for example, other dps players in the group are doing 20k+ dps each, but you're doing 4k in a dps role, then you should do better even if there's no hard time limit or strict dps check. Unless you know they are completely fine with it, of course, but that is between you and them - just as they can;t force you to run meta, you can't force them to be okay with them doing your job for you.

[Ragi.7291]

Every 6 months we have this kind of post T.T.The dps meter is not an evil, it's a tool.Anyway, even if the dps meter would disappear, you would be asked to dps the training golem and to kill it in XX seconds, as before ...

[ASP.8093]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:you don't need arcdps if the healer is not healing enough.

What if not healing you very much is an integral part of the healer's playstyle?

[Linken.6345]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rulesWithout the numbers showing their actual performance how do you know they are bad?

Easy they trash talk aka speak about low dps.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:arcdps is not being used to self improvement, people are using it to keep checking others as a harassment tool, trying to force speed runs and saying if don't do the "meta" you can't clear the content what is the biggest lie ever.I run Arc all the time.I have never once called out anyone for poor DPS.I run "All welcome" strike squads several times a week and consider a few low performers the cost of an inclusive atmosphere. But I do watch arc and if I see that we aren't hitting certain metrics on Fraenir and Voice and Claw, I just thank everyone and don't go on to Cold War. Because I know it's a recipe for disaster and a lack of fun.Please tell me now.... how is this harassment?

I run Arc in WvW where I am often tasked with sorting parties in 30-50 person squads. I try and make sure that at least one Firebrand per line is providing the other 4 people with Stability. If I see they aren't I, I assume they are not running support and shuffle them on to a line with one that is.

This is done without a word because between sorting squads and actually contributing to the fights there is zero time to call people out.Please tell me now.... how is this harassment?

My guild ran a contest one night to see who could pull the biggest damage numbers in our WvW run. The winner got 50g. All that was said were the numbers and congrats to the winner.Please tell me now.... how is this harassment?

My gf and I both run arc and roll around slaying champions on core maps to let off steam sometimes. We often have little contests to see who can do the best numbers. It increases our enjoyment of the game.Am I harassing her?...am I still harassing her when she beats me?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Ashen.2907" said:DPS meters are almost exclusively a good thing. They make it easier fora player to demonstrate that their character can meet the group's needs regardless of opinion or bias toward/against a given profession.

Let's not forget that DPS values are a great way to discriminate people who play the way they want, because it's more fun to them than META builds with even fixed rotations.

Discrimination has two meanings. Somehow, I don't think you mean: "Recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another."and instead mean: "The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, ..."

So, there is a subset of players who are both "playing the way they want" and who cannot produce decent damage (which is more than enough for most groups). For them to think that they are entitled to play in groups that don't want them is placing a greater value on their interests than on the interests of other players who are playing the way they want. Why are those players entitled to play with whomever they want when by doing so it means that the other guys are not able to play with whomever they want?

Why is it discrimination to think that those players should make the effort to find groups that accept their level of interest in playing well? Why are they entitled to complete content by making no effort to find a group other than to drop into one in the LFG tool? I've seen many accusations by such players over the years about discrimination, but none of those players seem any more capable of looking beyond their own desires than they accuse the alleged discriminating players of doing. So, why should someone who values group performance group with someone who does not? Got an answer that makes any sense?

[Game of Bones.8975]

I don't play much in Fractals and none in Raids so there is little chance I get a negative effect.

It's always those who abuse an item that make it hard for the rest to enjoy it's benefits.

If the monitor could only be seen by the user's stats to attempt to better themselves, I don't have a problem.

If a group would rather see a ranger play a Druid than a Beastmaster that's one thing, but to say you can't play your thief because they don't do enough damage is toxic to the game.

However, what I understand about certain raids, if you don't contribute by not knowing certain skill rotations or having a subpar DPS then you are a detriment to the group and they have every right to kick you and look for a better match for that specific team.

[naiasonod.9265]

@ASP.8093 said:

@naiasonod.9265 said:I really wish game devs would provide the tools that have been established as being standard and customary to support skill development in their games, but they always seem to think they're being magnanimous by leaving that up to the players.

Exposing the hooks for third-party tools

is

doing their part, though.

All you folks saying you want to see Arc replaced with an Anet-designed tool don't really see why a community-developed tool is better in this case. The development cycle is more responsive. People can contribute their own changes or fork it if they want to build an alternative. It serves its purpose quite well; any forced transition to a less polished or full-featured tool is going to be a net negative for months or years.

My house is filthy. I'll just leave the door open so anyone that feels like it can come in and clean it if they want to. I will in no way even specifically encourage them to do so, but you know, if they do so, I probably won't ban them from the property. I'll keep that card up my sleeve just in case I'm feeling feisty one day instead.

I'm doing my part to ensure that my home is a welcoming and pleasant place to be.

[ASP.8093]

@naiasonod.9265 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@naiasonod.9265 said:I really wish game devs would provide the tools that have been established as being standard and customary to support skill development in their games, but they always seem to think they're being magnanimous by leaving that up to the players.

Exposing the hooks for third-party tools

is

doing their part, though.

All you folks saying you want to see Arc replaced with an Anet-designed tool don't really see why a community-developed tool is better in this case. The development cycle is more responsive. People can contribute their own changes or fork it if they want to build an alternative. It serves its purpose quite well; any forced transition to a less polished or full-featured tool is going to be a net negative for months or years.

My house is filthy. I'll just leave the door open so anyone that feels like it can come in and clean it if they want to. I will in no way even specifically encourage them to do so, but you know, if they do so, I probably won't ban them from the property. I'll keep that card up my sleeve just in case I'm feeling feisty one day instead.

I'm doing my part to ensure that my home is a welcoming and pleasant place to be.

Your argument is that Anet should make the current situation worse to prove that they really care, lol.

The tool exists and fills a useful niche. Its "first-party" replacement would be worse -- for months if not years. It's that simple.

[naiasonod.9265]

@ASP.8093 said:

@naiasonod.9265 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@naiasonod.9265 said:I really wish game devs would provide the tools that have been established as being standard and customary to support skill development in their games, but they always seem to think they're being magnanimous by leaving that up to the players.

Exposing the hooks for third-party tools

is

doing their part, though.

All you folks saying you want to see Arc replaced with an Anet-designed tool don't really see why a community-developed tool is better in this case. The development cycle is more responsive. People can contribute their own changes or fork it if they want to build an alternative. It serves its purpose quite well; any forced transition to a less polished or full-featured tool is going to be a net negative for months or years.

My house is filthy. I'll just leave the door open so anyone that feels like it can come in and clean it if they want to. I will in no way even specifically encourage them to do so, but you know, if they do so, I probably won't ban them from the property. I'll keep that card up my sleeve just in case I'm feeling feisty one day instead.

I'm doing my part to ensure that my home is a welcoming and pleasant place to be.

Your argument is that Anet should make the current situation worse to prove that they really care, lol.

The tool exists and fills a useful niche. Its "first-party" replacement would be worse -- for months if not years. It's that simple.

Why would it be worse? Do you have any basis for declaring that it would 100% guaranteed be worse, or are you just making that up because that fabrication is the only way your point can possibly even make sense?

Because what I'm saying is that Anet, and MMO devs everywhere, need to support their advanced content by taking responsibility for also providing the tools that help players get into and excel at that advanced content.

Anet does not do this. Anet thinks that they're teaching players to dodge by putting a chest in a glowing ring in newbie areas. Anet clearly either has no idea what is going on with any of this, or they do and they really don't care. Neither are acceptable and leaving it up to the playerbase to teach people to play their game at any level beyond 'spams 1, dodges only by accident and camps Greatsword even on classes that can't technically equip one, somehow' is flatly irresponsible.

ARCdps provides data, not understanding, not information and certainly not knowledge. Why are the numbers what they are?

If you're already skilled and knowledgable about builds, you got there by other routes completely and ARCdps won't actually be telling you much of anything you don't already know other than that this build throws out 35k burst and that build throws out 36.5k burst. You will already know why if you can build that in the first place, and IF YOU CANNOT?

ARCdps can't and won't help you with builds. ARCdps can't and won't help you understand how synergies across trait lines works, how fields and power interactions work or give even the faintest hint at why the numbers are what they are.

Data is only useful to those that know what it means and understand how it correlates to the actions that yielded it.

It is a 100% useless tool for people that aren't already pretty expert in builds, building and knowing/understanding things. It will give experts data they can use to guide refinements of builds and rotations, and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Useless as a voltometer to a seamstress for folks that don't understand the numbers, how build synergies across trait lines work, etcetera, so on.

Now, who is responsible for teaching players what the numbers mean, how build synergies work and so on?

Nowhere but in MMOville do I see people defending the practice of not teaching players how to play the game at all. In the MMO space, I often enough see people bewilderingly praising devs for 'not holding their hand' and ...not teaching anyone how to even dodge in a game in which dodging is arguably the most important single thing you will ever do ever in this entire game that will dictate your success or failure in most content.

If an MMO is going to have advanced content, I think they should provide tools and resources to take responsibility for helping their players get into and succeed at that content. THEY should be providing in game tools and tutorials that teach people how to do what will be expected of them in fractals, raids, etcetera.

Why? Because when you leave it up to Joe Random Playerbase, you're going to get what you paid for; randomness. You might get some great community support from some, but you could get that anyway by supporting your own game and providing the essential tools yourself. This provision would in no way, shape or form detriment the formation of community structures that will always go above and beyond whatever the game does, trying to find the maximally efficient builds and strats and metas for everything, chasing the glory of being at the top of charts and the first to figure this out, do that thing and get that achievement.

We've got many years of collective experience in what games' playerbases look like when devs do nothing to teach their players how to succeed at their own game though.

You wind up with the figurative 1% that care enough to work at it, to seek outside knowledge and to share their own knowledge on third party sites and forums, to dig into all of it no matter the resistance and the apathy from game devs because they've got goals and they won't be deterred from figuring out how to delete every challenge the game offers, or die trying.

Then you'll have the other figurative 99% that play the game as the game teaches them to play it and will not be spending tens to hundreds of hours on homework/research for the video game they're playing. They will be roundly mocked and ridiculed by a substantive number of the figurative 1% as being lazy, stupid, entitled and spoiled because the 99% will of course have almost all the money to spend on the game and the devs will naturally wind up catering to them in terms of what gets put into the game.

And then the 1% get mad because the content they're here for gets roundly neglected for years on end because almost nobody is playing that content and developing more of it would objectively be throwing good money after bad investments.

All because the devs never bothered to teach players, as a baked-in aspect of their game, how to play effectively, how to understand what the stats mean and how builds work or anything that's even remotely useful at all to being able to step confidently into a fractal or a raid and BE useful there.

They leave that up to the players. The same players that sing their praises for not holding anyone's hands.

The same players that spend tens and hundreds of hours crying that there hasn't been a new raid in XX months and fractals never get enough love and that there's just not any real attention given to putting more compelling group content into the game.

When a game teaches its players how to succeed at playing the game and the tools are right there, 100% available and on-ramped and presented to the players, there is every reason to expect that lots of players will use them.

No add-ons should be required to play a game at the highest level, and the fact that anyone would even defend this smacks of Stockholm syndrome'd levels of crazy to me.

Devs should be providing all of the tools required to understand stats, to understand builds and to come to the understanding of how to use those things to play their game well.

Please tell me where I can find, in game, an explanation of the Power coefficient as it relates to actual damage against an armored target?

Can you tell me where I can go in game to be shown how to understand how my classes powers interact with themselves so I can reliably exploit field effects?

Where can I go in the game where the game will show me how to find the group finder tool? Because, and this is ironically tragic and hilarious, I JUST NOW had to explain to someone that we actually have a groupfinder tool. This person says they've been playing for a little over a month and just didn't think the game had one because WHO LOOKS ON THE SIDEBAR OF THE FRIENDS LIST FOR THAT SORT OF THING?!

I saw two other people in map chat say 'you should have just asked people about that sooner', and that infuriates me. Nobody should have to ask other players about basic functions in an MMO, and if your MMO is designed to immediately throw you to the wolves to even function in the UI, you've failed at a catastrophic level so difficult to define that I can't even come up with a witty metaphor for it.

This is a great game that has forever been hobbled by the devs refusing to provide anything resembling guidance or direction on how to play the game or succeed in any way, shape or form, and it leaves me fire-breathingly furious that there are players who will defend this laziness like it's some sort of gift to us; like Anet would just get it wrong if they did it.

Only if they decided to get it wrong on purpose, friend-o. There are no mysteries about what it takes to excel in this game to them, and if they wanted to make support structures in the game that gave players a proper on-ramp to not sucking, they could and they would.

But they don't. And for some reason, people like you think they shouldn't. Some player groups try to make up for that deficit by offering friendly raid and fractal training sessions, but they're forever going to be ignored by the vast majorities because they're 'just other players', and if MMO's have taught the general playerbase anything over the years, it's that you can't and should never trust other players to be friendly, to be nice to you or to be forgiving of your ignorance when you don't know what to do.

And so even the best parts of the community that try to do Anet's job will never and can never actually succeed very well, and they will never reach hardly any of the playerbase, most of whom will never even know they exist and wouldn't join them even if they did, because MMO's have taught lots of people very effectively and very consistently that you'll be jeered and rejected if you don't know what you're doing and you 'expect other people to teach you how to play'.

The playerbase might have some great individuals and guilds amongst it. GW2 here certainly does. But they don't undo the lessons taught by millions in every MMO. There are definitely diamonds in the sewer, but are you willing to go swimming through untold quantities of sewage to find them?

Maybe you are. Most people are not, and never will be.

Why should peoples' abilities to gain access to training on how to play the game well reside exclusively in the hands of other players; other players whom, in the MMO space, you've been taught very well through experience over the years that you should never trust and definitely never rely on?

At the end of the day, Anet's gotten what it's paid for on this one; a playerbase that, in vast majority, won't touch raids or fractals with someone else's stick and that have no interest in trying to get better at the game unless they can do so in the company of people they know and trust not to abuse them when they fail or don't know things.

There is no mystery at all about why fractals and raids get very little love, and why compelling group content in general just doesn't get made hardly ever.

NEARLY NOBODY IS FREAKING PLAYING IT.

And this is why. The game doesn't teach its own players how to play at the level required.

And the playerbase? Sorry. For every one kind, helpful player or guild you'll know of or name, there are a thousand others that are not people or guilds that should ever be relied on by anyone for anything, and they're out there proving that all day every day too, just like the ones that are helpful and teach people how to excel are.

Anet needs to take responsibility for the state of their game, the state of the playerbase and why so few people ever do much of anything to try to get into PVP, WvW, fractals or raiding.

They clearly think they've provided the canvas and that its up to the players to do what they will with it. Lovely intention.

Eight years in, its clear that the canvas is mostly covered in sewage and nearly nobody wants anything to do with it. Whille a half baked potato could have foreseen this outcome even back in 2012, the evidence peculiar to GW2 itself is now undeniable - no handholding doesn't work out well at all, except in the minds of the very few that can't see much of anything beyond their excruciatingly tiny bubble of personal experiences contrary.

ARCdps is not some sort of villainous tool. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, and its creator is lovely for going through all the effort of providing it.

That shouldn't be their job, and they will never, ever, not in a million years, be able to do that job as well as Anet themselves could if only Anet cared one tenth as much about helping their own players excel at playing their game.

Anet could support this community in ways no API developer will ever be able to, and the fact that they do nearly nothing should infuriate you as much as it does me, because ONLY Anet can support this community as it needs to be supported if anything that's now settled firmly by eight years' worth of evidence is ever going to change.

Players have done and are doing all they can for this game. Do the past eight years make it look to you like that is enough, or ever could be?

Eight years in and where we're at, right now, is the product of the best that every willing community pillar in the game has been able to manage. This isn't their fault however - they've done their best, but they're not the devs.

They don't have the tools, they don't have the authority and they certainly don't have the central attention that the devs do. And they never, ever will, no matter how hard they try or how desperately they want to see this game be better and do better.