Why Rune Of The Trapper Needs To Go - Short Video Inside

[ollbirtan.2915]

@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

[Megametzler.5729]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.

And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.

Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/873461855

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

It's just like in the original post. Him saying the guard was too fast and using teleports, while he actually walked there in 12 seconds. Makes one think of all his other posts...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

I never claimed that thief could do that.

I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't.

Do try to keep up.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.

And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.

Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/873461855

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

It's just like in the original post. Him saying the guard was too fast and using teleports, while he actually walked there in 12 seconds. Makes one think of all his other posts...

You keep bringing up this 12s thing which has nothing to do with anything really.

I noticed the Guardian was gone after 7s. At that point, it wouldn't matter if I immediately chased around to the left, he was already at the far node, and that was the point made, that the DH could stealth and disengage to that far node in 7s. It doesn't matter if I had followed him immediately right behind him or had afked for 30s. The point is that the DH can stealth from that position and make it to his close in 7s due to the rune of the trapper.

And in case you want to argue futher, the movement of the pet AI proves that what I said here is true. When the DH stealths, the pet begins to follow him to the left, because pets will follow stealthed opponents like that. But then the pet stops his pathing and comes back to me about 4s after the DH was moving to the left. The only way this could have happened is if he had used JI through the mountain and left the range of the pet pathing. So yeah, that DH got to the far node in 7s my dude. I'll say it again, that's DP Thief like mobility when SB5 was only 5 init.

Bring up all the embellished misinformation and misevaluation of what happened in the video all you want, but it doesn't change what actually happened in the video. And it certainly doesn't change my statement that DHs shouldn't be cross classed thief/mesmers.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

I never claimed that thief could do that.

I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't.

Do try to keep up.

lol, dude you said that:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

I never claimed that thief could do that.

I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't.

Do try to keep up.

lol, dude you said that:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument.

1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief.

2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

I never claimed that thief could do that.

I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't.

Do try to keep up.

lol, dude you said that:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument.

1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief.

2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument.

So you're telling me, that when you form an MAT team, 2x Thieves are as good of a replacement for node holding team fighters as 2x DHs?

Amazing comp. I'm sure that team will win. They will definitely be able to hold nodes against teams that have DHs and Renegades as team fighters.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

I never claimed that thief could do that.

I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't.

Do try to keep up.

lol, dude you said that:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument.

1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief.

2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument.

So you're telling me, that when you form an MAT team, 2x Thieves are as good of a replacement for node holding team fighters as 2x DHs?

Amazing comp. I'm sure that team will win. They will definitely be able to hold nodes against teams that have DHs and Renegades as team fighters.

DH can't hold those points either.

You keep trying to make it sound like I'm saying thief is good at holding nodes. I don't know how many other ways I can explain this...... but I'll say it yet again.

My point is NOT that Thief is good at surviving in a 4v4 (without stealth).

My point is that trapper-DH is not good at surviving in a 4v4 (without stealth)

Honestly, you have to be trolling at this point. This is 3 times now I've said "DH isn't good at surviving 4v4" and you come back with "so you're saying thief is good in 4v4" ????

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.

And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.

Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/873461855

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

Umm not arguing either way but all guard and guard specs are a hell of a lot more than 5% tankier than the tankiest thief, talking of damage taken or mitigated by other means than evades obviously.

Why are you allowed to discount damage mitigated by evade? Can I discount damage blocked?

Because guards can evade to, it's a universal damage mitigation. Regardless as I said guard is designed around less mobility and disengage potential than thief but more in fight sustain, if u cant see that I donno man. Also with the horrendous balance currently in the game dh has a far higher burst than even the thief class which is sopose to be the squishy high mobility high burst hit and run class as the rogue likes are in all mmo's, though almost all classes beat thief in burst potential nowadays so that's not just a guard issue but a over all game balance issue. I destroy my thief's burst on my dh,reaper, soulbeast, ele and rev and can out do my thief on my warrior if the opponent is bad enough to be out played by warriors burst.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.

And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.

Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/873461855

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

Umm not arguing either way but all guard and guard specs are a hell of a lot more than 5% tankier than the tankiest thief, talking of damage taken or mitigated by other means than evades obviously.

Why are you allowed to discount damage mitigated by evade? Can I discount damage blocked?

Because guards can evade to, it's a universal damage mitigation. Regardless as I said guard is designed around less mobility and disengage potential than thief but more in fight sustain, if u cant see that I donno man.

Guards can't evade as much as thief. Are you really arguing that thief and guard have the same amount of evade?

And, uuuuuurrrgh, for christ's sake.

Of course MOST guard builds are much better at sustaining in a fight. But not SPECIFICALLY the trapper-DH build. Because it's entire utility bar is damage, and so are all its traits.

Can we please try and understand that a trapper-DH is not the same build as a core-bunker ??

[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@Ragnar.4257 I gave up playing chess with pigeons. Impossible to reason when pitchforks are out. The mob will get what it wants and move on to next target,

Y'ALL!!! Shall we NERF TEEEF NEXT? IS OP!

I dunno, ask @Ragnar.4257 about that one. Apparently he knows of a secret Thief build that can tank like a Guardian in a team fight and hold nodes without needing to stealth or kite off.

I never claimed that thief could do that.

I claimed that the trapper-DH build can't.

Do try to keep up.

lol, dude you said that:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

I'd just want to point out right now that in 9 years of play and 20,000 games, I have never once seen 4 thieves stay on a node and hold in a team fight vs. 4 DHs. Clearly this is something that would never be able to happen lol. I don't know why you even went there with your argument.

1. Saying "it is not better at staying in a 4v4" is not the same as saying "it can totally stay in a 4v4". It means, exactly what it says. That a trapper-DH cannot stay in a 4v4 on node through its own sustain. It must either kite away and reset with stealth, like a thief, or, it must have 2x support, like a thief.

2. A made-up scenario of 4x Thief vs 4x DH is hardly relevant. 4x thief will struggle into basically anything, it's not an argument.

So you're telling me, that when you form an MAT team, 2x Thieves are as good of a replacement for node holding team fighters as 2x DHs?

Amazing comp. I'm sure that team will win. They will definitely be able to hold nodes against teams that have DHs and Renegades as team fighters.

X2 dh won't be able to hold node vs a dedicated teamfight duo any more than double thief would. I would argue that thief would hold it longer, especially with SD.

Dh is a teamfight dmg dealer, much like spite reaper. Balls to the wall damage, very little sustain outside of kiting.

You're playing with words and trying to put words in his mouth, he never said x4 thief would hold vs x4 dh.

[thundermarch.5643]

3sc of super speed AND 3sc of shealth without cooldown is not balanced

We should stop hidding behind the sheet that this rune is stupid and give mechanics to the gard that have already all the tools to deals without it. Like invulnerabilitty, aegis, block, regeneration ...

If you cry because gard isn't tanky enough maybe try not to go zerk ? Thief full zerk cannot do that much damage and didn't have so this amount of survability and i don't talk about mesmer.

Gard use it rarely in order to defend it but instead, he use it offensively.He just put on the feet of the opponent the trap in stealth as he can insta kill it with or he come in stealth and insta burn pple as the rune give alteration boost (30k of fire damage, we all know that already way too much).

In my opinion this is a bad design that this rune could be used for the gard : dragon hunter rune already exist in the game :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_the_Dragonhunter_(PvP)

(1): +25 Ferocity (2): +35 Power(3): +50 Ferocity (4): +65 Power.(5): +100 Ferocity.(6): Apply 5 stacks of Might.png might for 8 seconds when you place a trap.

the trap of gard that is oriented DPS and she match more with the first gameplay of DH

for reminder this is the description of DH :

''As dragons continue stirring in the land of Tyria, guardians have been honing their light into a physical nature, sharp and deadly enough to pierce scales. The dragonhunter specialization will look to viciously purge the lands of dragons and their ilk, with longbow and traps now at hand. As their prowess with light has increased, they are able to physically manifest their virtues into the world. ''

The DH was created to do physical damage and have the crow control to do it. And not in alteration for insta kill everyone while being in stealth

and this is the description of the gard trap :

Fragments of Faith. Lay a trap that deals damage and unleashes multiple fragments into the area when triggered. Each fragment grants aegis to allies, as long as they don't already have aegis.

Light's Judgment. Lay down a trap that creates an area of pure light that reveals enemies and pierces their armor.

Test of Faith. Lay a trap that creates a ring of weapons that punishes enemies that attempt to cross their threshold.Procession of Blades Set a trap that whirls around and damages enemies when activated

Dragon's Maw . Lay a trap that pulls enemies and creates a barrier that holds them in.

the trapper rune match more with the ranger classes as the trap that he can use are alteration

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Trapper

(1): +25 Condition Damage (2): +5% Condition Duration (3): +50 Condition Damage (4): +10% Condition Duration. (5): +100 Condition Damage(6): Gain 3 seconds of Stealth stealth and Super Speed.png Superspeed when using a trap skill.

This is the ranger trap

Flame Trap. Set a trap that burns foes.Frost Trapp. Set a trap that chills foes.Spike Trap. Set a trap that bleeds and launches foes.Spike Trap Set a trap that bleeds and stuns foes.Viper's Nest. Set a trap that pulses poison on foes when triggered.

Trap match way more to the damage expected for ranger -the 3sc are still stupid btw but it's more coherent to the design of ranger class -

To finish anet are reworked thief trap in order that they cannot use this rune (and for thef the rune where powerfull too in this class) so why not change the name of trap of gard so they cannot use them too ? Why not leave this rune to the ranger as she is originaly designed .

We have different rune design for some classes for exemple :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Engineerhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Trooperhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Weaverhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Druid

This one should be reworked to be only used by ranger AND reduce boon + CD

[Megametzler.5729]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

Did you seriously just try to make an argument that the Guardian class is no better at staying in a 4v4 on a node than the Thief class?

Come on man. I know you want to find ways to argue with me, but have some self respect.

No, not the class as a whole, we're talking about a specific build. Obviously other guardian builds are much more durable.

The specific build of burn trapper-DH, is not better at staying in a 4v4 on node than thief.

No

Watch as much of this as you'd like. We're running an AT and 3 of our players are on Guardian, 2 of them are DHs. No one is running support, it's all DPS. In the video it is quite clear that DHs are currently the lords of the team fight. At one point in Capricorn they vie over the bell for an elongated amount of time vs. some of the better players in NA in a big 4v4. The DHs in the video, despite not having a support, are just as sustainy as any team fighter.

And might I point out that a Thief would not be able to hang in the middle of that 4v4 holding the bell without instantly exploding to all of the AoE. We both know that's true.

Enough with unreasonable argument.

The point being is that this argument you have that "Trap DH is as squishy as a Thief" is not true.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/873461855

Really? No support? What was the staff+mace/shield guard running then? And what was giving AoE stability? I also see a SpB with sword/warhorn and warbanner? Looks like it takes 2x support to keep them up. Did you even take the time to look at this vid before posting it? I'm sure the other people giving you thumbs-up didn't. But I did. You're lying.

And also, yes, they stay alive by using the trapper rune to disengage when pressured. Think about how the exact same build minus trapper rune would fare?

To be honest, whether or not thief is 5% more or less tanky is a fairly pointless debate. My point remains that a trapper DH is not a super-sustainy heavy bruiser. You can build other DH builds like that, but not the trapper burn build.

Take a look at the final match, where basically as soon as the revs/engis push into mid, your DHs have to stealth and kite back, because there's no way they can go toe-to-toe in that environment.

"It can stay alive in TF even without support" -> proceeds to link video showing TWO supports.

It's just like in the original post. Him saying the guard was too fast and using teleports, while he actually walked there in 12 seconds. Makes one think of all his other posts...

You keep bringing up this 12s thing which has nothing to do with anything really.

I noticed the Guardian was gone after 7s. At that point, it wouldn't matter if I immediately chased around to the left, he was already at the far node, and that was the point made, that the DH could stealth and disengage to that far node in 7s. It doesn't matter if I had followed him immediately right behind him or had afked for 30s. The point is that the DH can stealth from that position and make it to his close in 7s due to the rune of the trapper.

And in case you want to argue futher, the movement of the pet AI proves that what I said here is true. When the DH stealths, the pet begins to follow him to the left, because pets will follow stealthed opponents like that. But then the pet stops his pathing and comes back to me about 4s after the DH was moving to the left. The only way this could have happened is if he had used JI through the mountain and left the range of the pet pathing.

So yeah, that DH got to the far node in 7s my dude. I'll say it again, that's DP Thief like mobility when SB5 was only 5 init.

Bring up all the embellished misinformation and misevaluation of what happened in the video all you want, but it doesn't change what actually happened in the video. And it certainly doesn't change my statement that DHs shouldn't be cross classed thief/mesmers.

I can't believe how delusional you are. It is your video. Is your own video "fake news"?

The guard stealthes at 0:40 s.Your pet moves to the left (where the guard obviously went) at 0:43 s. (Stealth ends.)You are confused and ask "where did this guy go?" and random block at 0:49 s.The guard pops up on the minimap on his close at 0.52 s.

Everybody can confirm this by themselves and see what actually happened in the video.

[Dadnir.5038]

Can't we just have the stealth and superspeed replaced by something like 2 seconds of alacrity. I mean, for me, it make more sense if you are a trapper that you can make use of your trap more often than the stealth + superspeed does.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

We do not need less runes. We need more choice if you ask me.The best option to me would be to restore the normal gear options for sPvP that we have had in PvE and WvW since day 1. Only this allows for fine tuning to allow anyone to play with the stats they like and counter the meta in creative ways. This is how sPvP started in GW2 and how it should be today.

[CroTiger.7819]

Very biased post and just trying to get likes from forum qq which mostly can t find counterplay vs anything new. We should stop this trend and not encourage this because trapper dh clearly have alot of counterplays like reveal, condi dmg, cleanse, stability, cc (0 stunbreaks), blocks etc. His defense vs condis is very bad and vs power is still managable with decent cleanse and understanding of the class. Nerfing trapper rune will also remove ranger build which encourage ppl do play double dagger. Gj so your goal is to reduce variety in the name of biased balance qq here on forum. Only issue with burn dh is permaeating wrath which is even more annoying on other guard builds like core so trapper rune is not a problem. That build maybe need small nerf because 4 counts on spirit wep is kinda too spammy and issue is this build kills bots very ez like lords, pets, clones, some players etc and it can be problem in lower tiers (still trapper rune doesn t add to it but burn itself). Pls stop this no sense comparing it to a thief since reason thief struglle is more because renegade being bloated as roamer and dh have bad mobility compared to it so thief still can do his job rotating even with nerfs on sb5. Your opinions are biased and seems to me you just focus to reduce amount of builds in general and acting like some balance guru or something which can t see how biased he is. You should work on making options and ideas for ranger which struggle in organized teamplay like you did for druid and some of ideas are rly good instead of seeking for attention from forum and focusing on class which you can counter very ez and have no problems to deal with. Good luck with your forum mission i hope Anet learned something from listening forums. There are much worst builds like water weaver tank and scrapper which faceroll and spam on node with resistance rune on 20 sec recharge with mortar kit also decap druid etc but yes lets focus on nerfing whats dealing dmg first so we can have braindead builds rise and unkilable side node meta with bad cleaves in tf making rezzes even stronger. Thief is not good because of meta side node tanking and play on 3 pts and revenant being bloated as roamer/teamfighter making it stright forward better pick in current situation.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"CroTiger.7819"

Reread the OP post carefully.

I did not say DH or Trap Rune was OP.

I said that DH being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers is dumb and shouldn't be happening from a sheer design standpoint.

It is as equally dumb as if my Ranger had a rune that allowed it summon phantasms each time I used a Wilderness Survival Skill, or if there were a rune that summoned rocket turrets every time a Signet was used.

And then I could toss the same types of wonky defenses and distractions in threads that attempt to point out how broken those runes were, that people are tossing in here. I could say: "My Ranger build needs the phantasms. Why is it weird that my Ranger can summon phantasms? Isn't every class supposed to be able to do everything?" yada yada yada.

It's w/e man. Enjoy your Trap Rune. This thread is just my opinion.

[Kuma.1503]

I recall you making a post once when the forum mob had come for ranger and everyone wanted it nerfed to the ground. It was before the patch that removed Knights and Cavalier from the game.

The forums complained that Rangers were far too tanky, yet had glass levels of burst from range. It supposedly led to them being unkillable gods on a side node while still being able to 100-0 you in a Sic Em burst.

You rightfully pointed out that, while these ranger builds might look alike to the untrained eye, each was built to accomplish different goals. A bunker ranger wasn't going to output as much pressure as a Sic Em sniper. A Sic Em sniper wasn't going to sustain as well as as a bunker ranger, yet the forums constantly complained as if rangers could accomplish it all with a single build. (Simplifying the points made for the sake of time.)

What's happening here, is a reason why I always try to make it known from the get-go when I have a bias against a class. No one is immune to bias, and I think a similar mistake is being made where Trapper DH is being conflated with your average bunker guard. Mistaking the support guard on node for a DPS guard and being bewildered at it's ability to hode node 4v4 is evidence of that. When you expect to see a DPS sustaining at the level of a bunker, you will look for evidence to prove that to be true, even if what you see directly contradicts the point you try to prove.

This isn't me throwing shade btw. Considering you were the player who inspired me to give Druid a shot in PvP (before immob/trapper builds became common).But if a change is made to guard, I would like for the change to address problems which actually exist, and not problems which we only perceive to exist. The same goes for any class, whether it be thief, ranger, engi, ect.

[CroTiger.7819]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@CroTiger.7819

Reread the OP post carefully.

I did not say DH or Trap Rune was OP.

I say that DH being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers is dumb and shouldn't be happening from a sheer design standpoint.

I know but i don t think many ppl on guard run that port and it also make them more squishy and kind of one trick poney if he use it to engage but also less amount of stealth so yes it is more of roaming pushed style which i actually find intersting. At the same time all he can do to stop you from escaping his dmg by just moving is imob and elite trap and all his dmg is removed by the good support like spellbreaker and core guard even if it lands. Recharge on JI is very long and mesmer+thief have better mobility still which they should have and i agree with that but i don t think this combo is problematic since its not power dmg and can be cleansed (not much cover condis aswell which are essential for condi builds). Dh burn can catch ppl offguard in higher tier yes but its not problematic there at all and only problem with it is that build is too strong in lower division and also doesn t rq skill to pull off burns there but thats kinda same for all condi builds because they are easier to play and more opressive in lower tiers but in same time very hard builds in higher tiers unless they are broken builds like old mirage and condi thief before nerfs.Classes mixing with design of each other is not good i can agree but thats part of another discussion and you can say it for necro ports speed runes etc... Still rune and traps are only way dh can play this and it leave them very vulnarble without cleanse almost and with no stunbreaks while thief and mesmer have stealth integrated in their design without sacrificing too much like dh. Burning is very fast in terms of dmg spike and applying it is too fast and spammy (only thing which should get nerfed) but its still not problem from a trapper rune but design of burning trait+ spirit weapon but nerfing it will leave guard in very bad spot and nerfing trapper rune will bring nothing to this problem instead deacrease build diversity which finally got some improvment at this point. Tanks and decap style with spam on point is what should be done first and thats more struggle for roamers (thief, mesmer, revenant) than dh being competitive as roamer. Also revenant is bloated as class and is reason why ppl run it to debunk those kind of build and on other side reason to not take thief since most teams play around 3 caps now since rev is rotational +1 better than thief and thief is more of decap to force +1. Now there is no much decap potential for thiefs so it pushed revenant into play especially renegade which is kinda too strong in terms of dueling some classes which shouldn t be case for roamer/teamfighter class aswell. Now when everything is nerfed only thing keeping faceroll bunker side meta is bloated revenant spec so i think we should first see those build spam reduced to see small nerfs on renegade and revenant so thief and mesmer (also need better resustain and some nerfs reverted on staff etc if it stays with 1 dodge) will be in good spot. Clear the bunker side node meta (not delete but make it more punishing and less faceroll which is not ez for sure) and than bring in the line rev as roamer is the way to go in my opinion, but it is just opinion. Also take a look at resistance rune recharge and how bloated it is on revs and scrapper with mortar and tell me that 1/5 uptime on condi imunity just from rune is ok. I don t think it is problematic on rev but in same time on scrapper it is very annoying if you add other spam like superspeed and blind in the mix aswell.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"CroTiger.7819"

Reread the OP post carefully.

I did not say DH or Trap Rune was OP.

I said that DH being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers is dumb and shouldn't be happening from a sheer design standpoint.

It is as equally dumb as if my Ranger had a rune that allowed it summon phantasms each time I used a Wilderness Survival Skill, or if there were a rune that summoned rocket turrets every time a Signet was used.

And then I could toss the same types of wonky defenses and distractions in threads that attempt to point out how broken those runes were, that people are tossing in here. I could say: "My Ranger build needs the phantasms. Why is it weird that my Ranger can summon phantasms? Isn't every class supposed to be able to do everything?" yada yada yada.

It's w/e man. Enjoy your Trap Rune. This thread is just my opinion.

Except they aren't being thief and mesmer like because stealth and ports aren't thief and Mesmer exclusive, so your analogy about ranger and phantasms isn't valid because that's a class specific mechanic, as is steal and initiate for thief. Most classes have ports, and 4/9 have independent access to stealth, and just because only two can do both without a rune doesn't mean the concept is specific to them and has to be kept as such. There are runes that do things like summon light disks or flocks of birds and those are quite literally specific skills on classes that suddenly every class can do with those runes, yet nobody cares.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Kuma.1503 I was one of the people who thumbsed up your post btw. You wrote it without spite or insultation and I actually agreed with what you've said.

[Crozame.4098]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth.

ppl just make all kinds of arguments to defend their own class, and use almost the same argument to say other classes are OP and need nerfs~

[Bazsi.2734]

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.So uh...

The thief is a

heavy bruiser

too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so

heavy

outside of its fashion style?

Don't make petty arguments.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth.

ppl just make all kinds of arguments to defend their own class, and use almost the same argument to say other classes are OP and need nerfs~

As the game ages you'd expect more and more people to multiclass... but you'd be wrong. The amount of people who think "you're a REDACTED main" is an argument is still disturbingly high. I comment on balance issues because I play all 9 classes, all meta and fotm builds(yes I practise even on builds I hate).Also this is a special case for me, because a nerf/buff is not my objective here. If class identity is still a thing in this MMO, then guardians don't get to wield stealth.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Bazsi.2734 said:If class identity is still a thing in this MMO, then guardians don't get to wield stealth.An agreeable compromise would be that no other class get stability then.