What Would You Think if All Core and Elite Specs had Access to all of a Profession's Weapons?

[Jaykay.9641]

The number one thing I love about Guild Wars 2 is the amount of horizontal progression the game has. For an MMO, it's refreshing, creative, and thoughtful. I believe the amount of theorycrafting that can go on in this game is second to none.

One of the ways horizontal progression takes place is with Elite Specializations. Elite specs are a great way to expand on an already existing class to further differentiate gameplay. If you choose to specialize, you are giving up a dedicated traitline in return for access to new utility skills, core mechanics, and weapons. While all this is great, I feel there is an opportunity to create more diversity with one change:

Allow all Specs of a profession to access the entire range of weapons for that profession. I understand your gut reaction may be to disqualify this change, but hear me out. Here could be some benefits of making such a change.

Benefits:

• Allowing all core and elite specs to have access to all the weapons sets of a profession can open up loads more build diversity and theorcrafting.
• A specific Elite Spec will still only be able to enhance it's given weapon that it was introduced with. (examples: a Core Mesmer using an Axe wouldn't be able to get a reduced recharge trait on Axe skills or use the Ambush on it. A Dragonhunter won't be able to trait for Axe Daze in the Firebrand spec, a Tempest wouldn't be able to use Sword Dual Attacks that Weaver provides, and a Daredevil won't be able to use Deadeye's Mark and Malice with a Rifle. The list goes on.)
• Provide all Core elite specs with more weapon Diversity. This will help classes with low weapon options (Engineer, Elementalist, Revenant)
• Help out some Elite specs weapon options that only receive seldom used offhand/main-hand weapons
• Elite specializations will still retain their unique identity through their specific trait lines, utility abilities, and core mechanics.

Of course, there will always be concerns with making changes like this:

Concerns:

• Slightly diminishes the identity of an Elite Specialization if weapons become homogenized between the Profession specs.
• Could create some abnormal performance monsters. Examples might be a Condi-Herald with Shortbow, Daredevil with Rifle (even though they lose access to Deadeye's Mark and Malice)
• The most obvious concern is balancing might become a nightmare (IMO, this is offset by using a weapon for a not designed for a particular spec will not perform as well)

So what does everyone think? I would absolutely love if this was given a chance. There is just so much more potential for weapon and build diversity if this were a thing. I'd love to hear some thoughts.

[Jski.6180]

It would be a cool idea I am just not sure how much the elite spec weapons are balanced for there elite spec effects. Is there any elite spec weapons that has a lot of effects with F1-5 effects?

[Sigmoid.7082]

If only this was a topic that isn't brought up often. As always its a no.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:If only this was a topic that isn't brought up often. As always its a no.

This.

The weapons as they are being implemented now are balanced around NOT being available at all times, nor be used without their respective elite specialization (and this is unteralted to weapons being main or offhand only. So far, the additions to specializations more than made up for this difference). On top of all, meaningful choice matters. Simply allowing access to all weapons diminishes this choice.

My personal guess is we will get 1 more set of elite specializations, then this system will be "done". I highly doubt that elite specialization weapons will be made available baseline, ever.

[Jski.6180]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:If only this was a topic that isn't brought up often. As always its a no.

I think it would be nice to have it for Core classes only (i missed the part that the elite spec would also get all of the weapons).

[Luthan.5236]

Not good. Would mean more skills. (=Work that could be used to develop other stuff.) Unless you just want them for cosmetical purpose. (Skin only but skills from other weapons still used.) Also balancing harder.

I'd prefer different new customization options. No new class. No new elites. With the upcoming expansion. Maybe an extra utiltiy skill slot.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:If only this was a topic that isn't brought up often. As always its a no.

Pretty much the most relevant comment possible on this issue. Also, I forget where, but I'm pretty sure an ANet dev noted that weapons are hard-coded to class, and elite specs operate like separate classes in this regard. So in other words, giving a druid's staff (weapon + the associated abilities) to a core ranger would be just as impossible as giving a warrior's greatsword (again, weapon + associated abilities) to revenant.

On the note of druid staff, this opening up of weapon types would severely favor certain classes. I can't imagine anything more useless than a druid staff on any sort of damage dealing ranger, but other combos OP already mentioned sound like they could actually work.

[Fueki.4753]

No thanksThe weapons are part of the Elite Specializations' identities and flavours.

[Astralporing.1957]

@voltaicbore.8012 said:Pretty much the most relevant comment possible on this issue. Also, I forget where, but I'm pretty sure an ANet dev noted that weapons are hard-coded to class, and elite specs operate like separate classes in this regard. So in other words, giving a druid's staff (weapon + the associated abilities) to a core ranger would be just as impossible as giving a warrior's greatsword (again, weapon + associated abilities) to revenant.No, that was what one of the posters claimed at some point in one of the previous threads, but the claim was dubious from the very beginning, and they could offer no proof whatsoever that might support it in any way.

Seriously, if that claim was true, then elite specs could not use core class weapons, and it would be impossible to add a new weapon to already existing class - which is something that did happen once, when devs added a second underwater weapon to revenant.

[Pacificterror.7805]

I'm arguing with myself in my head about this.

My Necro only has access to a Greatsword because my Reaper specialization enabled that....on the one hand, once I learn something, I should retain that knowledge across the board. On the other hand, a specialization should be just that: specializing in something; so it makes sense that only a necro that's a Reaper can use the Greatsword.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

This thread comes up often. As usual it's yes.

The myth that weapons are hard coded to the elite spec so they can't make it work for the class has been proven wrong since you can equip the weapons now. The skills are just grayed out.

Giving all classes access to all weapons at any time will increasingly become inevitable.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:This thread comes up often. As usual it's yes.

The myth that weapons are hard coded to the elite spec so they can't make it work for the class has been proven wrong since you can equip the weapons now. The skills are just grayed out.

Giving all classes access to all weapons at any time will increasingly become inevitable.

Don't kid yourself. As the current system gets expanded upon, the chance of getting a change to it diminshes more and more.

With a 3rd set of elite specializations and weapons tied to them, the workload to untie the weapons grows again.

It would already require extensive rework balance wise without the 3rd elite specialization already (unless your position is based on no balance aspects). In case you haven't noticed, the promissed balance patches were all canclelled ever since the last major one in Feb 2020. Reason being all work and class balance is hands on for the next expansion.

To even assume the developers would willingly rework a perfectly fine system with already thin resources now or in the future... well good luck.

[flog.3485]

As always they won’t do it because of balance nightmare.There is no point of talking about some potential if you can’t list what real benefits this idea will have. And no, saying it could open up diversity in build craft will not actually make build craft any better. You could end up having a way more choices to make and actually figure out that the number of viable or meta builds hasn’t changed, this will in fact complicate the game even more.

Worst in case in scenario: you could end up having professions for which opening up the specs will create new viable and/or meta build at the expense of other professions for which this change reduces the number of viable/meta builds because of some balance patch that take into account these new build opportunities.

Once they are done with this batch of elite specs, I would rather have Anet add new classes with three specialization lines if they ever create more expansions after the upcoming EoD.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:It would already require extensive rework balance wise without the 3rd elite specialization alreadyI don't think it would, at least if we limited the unlock to core, and not the other especs. That's due to both those weapons not getting their supporting traits, and to core specs being generally weaker than elite ones. I'd be very, very surprised if unlocking espec weapons for core classes would cause those classes to suddenly be able to even equal especs, much less surpass them - and so i don't think any balance would be required.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

This discussion is only relevant because of the limited availability of weapon sets on three of the nine classes, and said classes were balanced around those limited weapon sets.

So, no.

[Astyrah.4015]

balance nightmare for sure so it's very unlikely to happen anytime soon.

but if it ever happened, it may just open up very unique and incredibly fun to play builds for each class while also possibly being too OP (or the opposite, fun/boring and lacklustre in performance)

but yeah balance so it's never going to happen in the near future -- if ever at all.

[Sigmoid.7082]

It's also not just balance but implementation.

Examples:

Weaver was supposed to be the HoT elite spec but it took so long to implement due to dual skills. Adding a non-offhsnf weapon would mean adding 6 extra dual skills on top of whatever else you need to add for the weapon.

Dual skills are likely the reason thief has gotten two 2h weapons.

You get stuff like Breaching Strike on warrior which is designed for just the one burst level that now needs adrenalin scaling. As well as the need for a new burst skills for berserker for however many weapons get added.

Etc but you get the idea.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:It would already require extensive rework balance wise without the 3rd elite specialization alreadyI don't think it would, at least if we limited the unlock to core, and not the other especs. That's due to both those weapons not getting their supporting traits, and to core specs being generally weaker than elite ones. I'd be very, very surprised if unlocking espec weapons for core classes would cause those classes to suddenly be able to even

equal

especs, much less surpass them - and so i don't think any balance would be required.

Meaning the options are either redundant or worse: there are combinations which are overpowered.

Not to mention:

• removal of a reason to get expansions. I personally would be far more on board with this idea if current expansion were made mandatory
• unbalance between core classes. Less an issue but even so, different core classes would have different benefits from access to elite spec weapons
• a serious issue IF we ever should see more than 3 elite specializations per class because it limits new weapons to 1 skill set (unlike elites where theoretically the same weapon could be used again on the same class)
• this leads to a loss of access to a weapon once an elite specialization is selected. Which in its self leads to a complete new set of issue:
  1. this type of implementation would be very confusing for each and every new player and now suddenly certain weapons would need to be marked as only available in core or elite spec xyz
  2. loss of access to something which one had is actually worse than never having access to it in the first place. This would sour transition from core to elite specs
  3. the forums would be full with the next idiotic idea of making elite spec weapons available at all time, and we are back to square one

All that for what? So a part of the player base, which is likely not even interested in balance so I fail to see how changing to an elite spec which can use the weapon of choice is an issue, can role play with all weapons as core classes?

I'm just not seeing it. This falls perfectly under one of those things:"Players have no clue of what they are actually asking for and are not taking the time to consider the implications this change would have." There is value in choice, and being locked out of certain weapons, even if one really really really wants to wield that weapon falls under meaningful choice.

[Sindrela.1846]

My poor engineer already gets pistols and riffle that are crap compared to Every other class who can use them, so no ta dont want to get crappy version of others :pensive:

[Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.294]

@Sindrela.1846 said:My poor engineer already gets pistols and riffle that are kitten compared to Every other class who can use them, so no ta dont want to get crappy version of others :pensive:

Try sword/pistol on a holo. It's not kitten.

[Sindrela.1846]

not tried holo yet as kinda hate the look of it on the cha, but im slowly getting the points. got scrapper and dont get me wrong it murders stuff, but swinging a hammer just lost the feeling of being an engineer.

[Game of Bones.8975]

I don't believe the question is asking to unlock each and every weapon. The only change to the game would be to allow the two weapons unlocked for the elites to be used at all times. That's it.

I can use a sword with full bonuses as a Daredevil or Deadeye, but I can only use a staff or rifle in their respective roles. I think it is quite absurd that a character forgets how to use a weapon entirely just because they are not applying it to a specific elite specialization. That's akin to saying "I forgot how to drive a stick-shift because it's not a (Honda, Toyota, Ford, Chevy, car, truck, hybrid, etc.)"

If today the especs were so "special" to the weapons they unlocked, the elite would only function with the weapon it comes with. Instead, a player can choose from any of the other core weapons unlocked and gain the same bonuses.

As for those people talking about the balance of the game, balancing is an ongoing process regardless whether you have added something new or not.

[Fuchslein.8639]

That would be creepy. Imagine Anet having to balance all that :'')But I personally don't need it. I grew up with classes that can carry one, at most two weapons. What GW2 offers is already very much and mostly I use in the end anyway only the same few weapons because I look more on the optical.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:There is value in choice, and being locked out of certain weapons, even if one really really really wants to wield that weapon falls under meaningful choice.

This is a fundamental feature of GW2, and it's also why I forgive the game consistently for getting a lot of things wrong simply because there is still a lot of meaningful choice where other games have simply chosen to largely remove choice altogether. This is not to say that some contexts like spvp significantly narrow the viable range of choices available to certain classes, but as a whole, GW2 retains a pretty broad range of viable builds and playstyles. I am against anything that overtly dilutes the meaning of these choices, and I see the elite spec weapon sharing as one of these things.

As for the hard-coded to class myth, I feel dumb for having forgotten about the new "equip but not use" aspect we got following weapon loadouts. It's obviously possible to have the game recognize a weapon as being equipped, but the associated abilities simply remain unusable. So I'll update my position: it's clearly feasible at least from a "can we have core characters equip elite spec weapons, at least in the UI" standpoint. I still think it's a dumb idea, but not for coding reasons.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

This is something I've thought the game needed for a while. Seeing NPCs with odd weapon combinations is what started me questioning why the hell there are weapon-type restrictions in the first place.

@Jaykay.9641 said:

• Slightly diminishes the identity of an Elite Specialization if weapons become homogenized between the Profession specs.

This is why classes should get different weapon skills while an Elite is active, and while not. By default, if you were to have sword out as an Engineer, you would have weapon skills similar to that of Warrior/Guardian, but then when you turn on Holo, the sword skills are converted to what we have now. You could constrict this behavior to just what weapons Elites currently specialize in.

If you wanted to extend this behavior out to all weapons and Elites, you'd have up to 15 skills per weapon on just one class, 20 with the next ExpPack. It's too ambitious, something ANet is very good at, so not happening.