Anet must give us an explanation about these terrible releases

[keenedge.9675]

17 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I am very frustrated with ANet's constant mismanagement of this product. 

 

Overly optimistic promises are common in the software industry.  In this case, it's evident Anet had the run of the roost until NCsoft deemed that they were abusing the freedom they'd been given.   After that, year by year, drastic management and staffing level changes were made.  It's sad that NCsoft seemed to throttle IBS to support EoD.  I hope it pays off.

 

If EoD is also thin and poorly received, gw2 will certainly suffer.  I really hope this is not the case.  EoD has the potential to bring back customers to enjoy the foundation game, plus wow them with fresh content.

[Dami.5046]

EoD will need to be perfection. 

The real issue is what that 'perfection' is because we are all different.

It's unfortunate how IBS finished and i know people are upset, but i would rather have an expansion coming then a few more episodes of it. I for one don't mind the easy 2g and loot.

Besides that content was free, I would save up the uproar when the 'paid' content drops.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Dami.5046

[Gazrul.3086]

While the ending indeed felt rushed, I don't think it was something catastrophically bad or unsalvageable. The death of Jormag and Primordus opens up many paths for potential stories and plots. I just hope the writers will make the most of this opportunity.

[Malitias.8453]

10 hours ago, Mitch.4781 said:

This is hilariously entitled and hyberbolic. You felt betrayed? LMAO

 

God, how enormously worry free your life must be if this is what triggers you.

Hmm.. in my own experience I was way more emotionally invested in games when my life was at a really bad place because games were my escape, so I think your assumption is flawed there.

 

Feeling betrayed is pretty normal when you're heavily invested in something, spend money on it in good faith and then get something that is not even remotely close to the expectations you had.
Thankfully, I am not one of those, but if I was heavily invested in the game, yea, I'd feel betrayed too.
I'm just disappointed and don't have high hopes for future content.

[Yggranya.5201]

10 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

We've been hearing about these dragons and their minions for a long time. Saying that neither Jormag nor Primordus caused problems for anyone is a bit rich.  Minions of Primordus were causing problems all the back in Guild Wars 1 when destroyers overran the Asuran gate network 250 years ago and forced Asurans to the surface.

Jormag killed a spirt of the wild and drove the norn out of their ancestal homeland. 

We can kill the dragons now, because Aurene has gained the ability to take on that energy without it corrupting her the way it did Kralkatorrik. She's something new.  It's been discussed but maybe you missed that bit. Since the end of Season 4 when Aurene transformed no one has said a word about not being able to kill an elder dragon. 

Canach is a free spirit who shows up when he's needed sometimes. Putting in the story fits his sudden arrivals and departures. He comes to help sometimes, even if he's not part of our guild.  Presumably he does other stuff as well.

 

Whatever your little grudges are, that's what they are little grudges. The general story seems pretty okay to me.  If you don't like people showing up randomly and not hanging around (particularly if they already said they don't want to be in the guild but they don't mind helping sometimes), I'm not sure what to tell you but it's it feels more like you're looking to nitpick because you don't like the story. 

 

I'll just quote this again: "If the writing relies on the fanbase to fill numerous holes in the writing to provide reason to everything established in the story, it's bad writing."

 

I couldn't care less about the story if anet allowed me to simply skip it, but since they think i NEED to see it for some reason, i'll just continue to say that aurene is the bane of GW2s story. I'm pretty sure i'll just ignore the next expansion regardless.

[Joote.4081]

I don't get it why people are so upset.  The whole story was kitten, so did they expect for it to somehow, by some miracle, to get better.

I play the story episodes for the loot only.  After experiencing some of the earlier story missions I gave up on that and have zero interest in it.  It's just hog-wash.  The beano has better story's. 

I would prefer the dev's spent the time on the game itself and iron out the bugs.

 

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, StrangeSelcouth nz.9256 said:

I understand that maybe Anet did not have enough resources to properly produce IBS. 

 

But c'mon man, don't kill TWO elder dragons in just 20 mins. Especially PRIMORDUS!! The GuildWars 2 Universe exists due to the awakening of Primordus. How can you just kill him off like that? Postpone the saga... they magically disappear or something I don't know. 

 

There should of been some decency, and respect to the lore. Elderdragons shouldn't have an ending like that.

 

I too feel totally disappointed from this episode, coming from the GW1 universe, you see the lore that you loved so much, falling in to bits.

I saw the same argument about Zhaitan. People said there wasn't even a boss battle.  In reality, we fought Zhaitan from level 70 and through the 13 stories of level 80. We partially blinded it. We took away it's ability to consume magic, thus starving it. We took away it's ability to make undead. We heard it roar in fear.  And we used a special ray on it that was anti-dragon magic, theoretically working off the principles introduced by Professor Gor who we first meet very early in one of the Asuran storylines.  Sure people expected a boss fight and didn't get it.

 

But this plan of introducing two different dragons to take each other out has been discussed for a long time now. We killed neither of them, we simply formulated a plan to have their magics cancel each other out. It's not like this was just pull out of the ether.  It's a long discussed strategy that worked. It's always been our job to pit the fire dragon against the boss dragon and try to get them to kill each other.  It's smart strategy.  Anet simply added drama by (trying to avoid spoilers here) making the dragon champions have secondary affiliations. 

 

I came from the Guild Wars 1 universe and slew the God Abaddon in the Realm or Torment in 10 minutes in a relatively easy fight, and the great destroyer and be killed in less than 5.  In fact, when we face Shiro Tagachi, there are strategies people used to kill him in less than two minutes. 

 

I wish people who invoked Guild Wars 1 actually remembered it.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

The saga started out so nicely - then got progressively worse by doing the least possible and calling it content.   Essentially, they gave it the wvw treatment.  

[radda.8920]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I came from the Guild Wars 1 universe and slew the God Abaddon in the Realm or Torment in 10 minutes in a relatively easy fight, and the great destroyer and be killed in less than 5.  In fact, when we face Shiro Tagachi, there are strategies people used to kill him in less than two minutes. 

 

I wish people who invoked Guild Wars 1 actually remembered it.

 

it really has nothing to compare

 

abbadon was build over 3 games, where each side story led to him. This god has even all the realm or torment to give depth to his character.

Same for shiro, it may be less detailed but through all the main and side quests in cantha, we really care about this enemy.

 

Primordius, on this side, will not have any environment or particular missions to approach it. All the lore about the dwarves, the depths, the asura cities will never exist.

Since the start of the game, the only thing we have seen about him is his humiation by bathalzar and  then by jormag.

 

The duration of the fight is not the problem in itself, it is all the exploitation of the lore around him...

The great destroyer may have a quick death in gw1 but i loved the whole story of the destroyers invasions during eyes of the north, it was much more successful than the whole champion chapter...

Even his army is pathetic,they weren't even able to take all the magnificent models of destroyers from gw1. During champions, we had an army of crabs and harpy for 6 months..

Edited May 3, 2021 by radda.8920

[Vayne.8563]

22 minutes ago, radda.8920 said:

 

it really has nothing to compare

 

abbadon was build over 3 games, where each side story led to him. This god has even all the realm or torment to give depth to his character.

Same for shiro, it may be less detailed but through all the main and side quests in cantha, we really care about this enemy.

 

Primordius, on this side, will not have any environment or particular missions to approach it. All the lore about the dwarves, the depths, the asura cities will never exist.

Since the start of the game, the only thing we have seen about him is his humiation by bathalzar and  then by jormag.

 

The duration of the fight is not the problem in itself, it is all the exploitation of the lore around him...

The great destroyer may have a quick death in gw1 but i loved the whole story of the destroyers invasions during eyes of the north, it was much more successful than the whole champion chapter...

Even his army is pathetic,they weren't even able to take all the magnificent models of destroyers from gw1. During champions, we had an army of crabs and harpy for 6 months..

This is where you and I differ. I don't see the elder dragons as seperate but part of something larger. The lore comes less from primordus himself and more from the fact that he's the fire elder dragon.  I didn't feel particularly connected to Zhaitan as a champ even with more lore. Once you do another elder dragon and another and another...this guy is the death one and this guy is the jungle one and oh look the fire one.  We know him from his destroyers. From the ancient battle with the great dwarfs. It's all ancient info and we don't have it, and I"m okay with that. 

 

Nothing about this would be better if I had more info. I really am tired as hell of dragons. The sooner they're gone the happier I'll be. Dragons themselves are making it hard to find an enemy I care about defeating.

[Neo Mortem.3627]

If the devs were really frustrated with dropping their work on IBS to be forced to work on EoD, in what sounds like rushed decision and short time to even start writing EoD, then that seems like EoD will suffer just like previous expansions, if not worse than HoT and PoF. Honestly, if EoD fails because of this, then... well, IDK what to say....

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Neo Mortem.3627 said:

If the devs were really frustrated with dropping their work on IBS to be forced to work on EoD, in what sounds like rushed decision and short time to even start writing EoD, then that seems like EoD will suffer just like previous expansions, if not worse than HoT and PoF. Honestly, if EoD fails because of this, then... well, IDK what to say....

I've worked in writing and publishing for a long time. Sometimes tight deadlines equal inspiration. There are plenty of times that changes that happen on the spur of the moment produce better results than long term planning.

 

This happens in wrestling too. Long term planning doesn't guarantee fans will like it, but when someone gets unexpectedly injured and the entire script has to change over night, writers have to immediately write something they had no prep time for. And very often those episodes of Raw or Smackdown are better than the ones they had time to work on.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Keep in mind that devs have been working on this storyline since LS3, before it got derailed by Balthazar. If anything it felt like Balth and Kralkatorrik were just shoehorned in when the story was already ramping up to Primordus and Jormag battle.

 

I'd say Path of Fire and LS4, while good, are what messed up IceBrood Saga, not the overall delivery of the saga itself, because there's a massive gap in the Fire/Ice Dragon story and by the time we went back to it players had forgotten everything that came before it.

 

If you look back at the whole story, the conclusion to this was a long time coming. It was technically 11 episodes including the precursor episodes Out of the Shadows, Rising Flames, A Crack in the Ice, and Flashpoint.

 

For comparison Modremoth had 12 episodes with LS2+HoT.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Neo Mortem.3627]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I've worked in writing and publishing for a long time. Sometimes tight deadlines equal inspiration. There are plenty of times that changes that happen on the spur of the moment produce better results than long term planning.

 

This happens in wrestling too. Long term planning doesn't guarantee fans will like it, but when someone gets unexpectedly injured and the entire script has to change over night, writers have to immediately write something they had no prep time for. And very often those episodes of Raw or Smackdown are better than the ones they had time to work on.

I suppose. I don't work in the field, so I'll have to take your word for it. However, I can't say I have high hopes for the game if interesting plots are axed or shoved aside cause they either don't want to deal with it, want to move on to the next project, or whatever may arise.

 

I mean, the concept they presented when announcing IBS was interesting, but they didn't really have anything to show for it other than vague concepts and "here is some merch to buy". What they promised was not what they presented. That alone is unfortunate and sad. Who is to say EoD, when they announce whatever they feel like announcing three months from now (whether it be more vague concepts and more merch adverts, or actual plans and features in a massive info dump), wont suffer from the same travesty?

[Vayne.8563]

50 minutes ago, radda.8920 said:

 

it really has nothing to compare

 

abbadon was build over 3 games, where each side story led to him. This god has even all the realm or torment to give depth to his character.

Same for shiro, it may be less detailed but through all the main and side quests in cantha, we really care about this enemy.

 

Primordius, on this side, will not have any environment or particular missions to approach it. All the lore about the dwarves, the depths, the asura cities will never exist.

Since the start of the game, the only thing we have seen about him is his humiation by bathalzar and  then by jormag.

 

The duration of the fight is not the problem in itself, it is all the exploitation of the lore around him...

The great destroyer may have a quick death in gw1 but i loved the whole story of the destroyers invasions during eyes of the north, it was much more successful than the whole champion chapter...

Even his army is pathetic,they weren't even able to take all the magnificent models of destroyers from gw1. During champions, we had an army of crabs and harpy for 6 months..

Abaddon wasn't built over three games. I barely even heard of him until Nightfall.

[Mesis.2951]

The ending was definetly rushed but ultimatly the result would have been the same.
I can only wish if we can get a proper story in a text-based form on perhaps something like a Vision in the past.

[Vayne.8563]

4 minutes ago, Neo Mortem.3627 said:

I suppose. I don't work in the field, so I'll have to take your word for it. However, I can't say I have high hopes for the game if interesting plots are axed or shoved aside cause they either don't want to deal with it, want to move on to the next project, or whatever may arise.

 

I mean, the concept they presented when announcing IBS was interesting, but they didn't really have anything to show for it other than vague concepts and "here is some merch to buy". What they promised was not what they presented. That alone is unfortunate and sad. Who is to say EoD, when they announce whatever they feel like announcing three months from now (whether it be more vague concepts and more merch adverts, or actual plans and features in a massive info dump), wont suffer from the same travesty?

I think your personal lore expectation and that of the bulk of the community are likely very different. I sort of like lore and dabble in it, but I'm not living it and I don't think most players do. Prior to the DRM stuff, even even during it I enjoyed the story beats of the Icebrood Saga.

I can say from personal experience the stuff I've written in the shortest times or throwaway stuff has garnered higher praise and gotten a better response/earned me more money than stuff I worked on for years.

[radda.8920]

38 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Nothing about this would be better if I had more info. I really am tired as hell of dragons. The sooner they're gone the happier I'll be. Dragons themselves are making it hard to find an enemy I care about defeating.

Ok i know excatyly what you mean.

 

To be honest, i have never found dragons interesting as you. The enemis of guild wars 1 ( the lich, shiro, abbadon, mursaat, magonites, stone summit..) was much more motivating.

However Primordius and Kralka, both of them have a big connection with guild wars 1. Primordius in relation to his connection with the dwarves and  kralka in relation to his connection with glint.

 

I find that kralka has been used really well and that they really did  everything possible to do with this dragon. But on the primordius side, i am reall pissed off that, i saw the dwarves erased whitout any interaction (except 2 lines of dialogue), you know what i mean?

 i would have really liked to see armies of dwarves facing destroyers inside big citadels of the depths, it could have really beautiful.

 

But i join you, i am in a hurry to see new ennemies on a human scale, much more worked. They could have done it with lazarus and especially joko but they destroyed their potential...

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by radda.8920

[Vayne.8563]

8 minutes ago, radda.8920 said:

Ok i know excatyly what you mean.

 

To be honest, i have never found dragons interesting as you. The enemis of guild wars 1 ( the lich, shiro, abbadon, mursaat, magonites, stone summit..) was much more motivating.

However Primordius and Kralka, both of them have a big connection with guild wars 1. Primordius in relation to his connection with the dwarves and  kralka in relation to his connection with glint.

 

I find that kralka has been used really well and that they really did  everything possible to do with this dragon. But on the primordius side, i am reall pissed off that, i saw the dwarves erased whitout any interaction (except 2 lines of dialogue), you know what i mean?

 i would have really liked to see armies of dwarves facing destroyers inside big citadels of the depths, it could have really beautiful.

 

But i join you, i am in a hurry to see new ennemies on a human scale, much more worked. They could have done it with lazarus and especially joko but they destroyed their potential...

 

 250 years have passed though. That's the penalty for setting an expansion so far into the future. It happens like that all the time in book series even. Some of the most interesting stuff is really skipped over.

 

Take the Cataclysm in Guild Wars 1. It happened in the interim between Pre-Searing Ascalon and the rest of Guild Wars Prophecies. Even in that 2 year interval we had 2 major events we couldn't explore and just sorta hear about them briefly later. 

 

The destruction of Orr and the Charr assault on Kryta which was turned back by the unseen ones and the white mantle led by Saul D'lessio.  I mean that's huge stuff.  Big events, and they're just skipped over.

From my point of view we have enough info on the dragons to tell the story. Primordus' minions took over the Asuran transfer network, drove them to the surface.  He's been underground the whole time, where he has minimal interaction with us.  Not like Jormag who had far more direct interaction wtih the norn, or Kralk who flew over Tyria and caused the scar. 

 

For the fact that he's essentially a bad fire dragon, who happens to be underground where we can't really reach him, I think enough info was provided. Would I have welcomed more? Sure. 

Did the story need more lore for Primordus. I'm not thinking so.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[radda.8920]

17 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Abaddon wasn't built over three games. I barely even heard of him until Nightfall.

But precisely everything was perfectly linked during nightfall where we learn that many events were directly manipulated by him (the charr invasion in ascalon caused by titans,  the annihilation of orr, the madness of shiro, nightfall etc..), we are far from primordius and his abyssal void at the scriptwritting level .

During gw1, we really feel that the story has been worked for a long term and that that they had a project in mind witch ended with the death of abbadon.

 

[I Love Root Beer.1872]

I half agree with you. I did lose a bit of confidence in their ability to tell great stories. I mean, for a while now they’ve rushed some potentially great stories, 2 great examples in my opinion are Zhaitan and Palawa Joko. So much of the core story’s plot felt rushed and as an original Guild Wars player I felt as if they killed off Palawa Joko way too soon. But to kill 2 elder dragons in such a way was probably the biggest let down from this game. Especially with Primordus who’s CHAMPION, forget Primordus himself, his champion, the Great Destroyer got an entire expac in the original game (Eye of The North, great expac by the way, best expac for that game in my opinion) Primordus barely seemed at all relevant in this game. I could go all day criticizing this release. However, there could be a good reason as to why they were so hellbent to end the elder dragon arc. This is me being optimistic here, but, hopefully they lead us into something much bigger than the elder dragons and really give us better stories that don’t feel rushed anymore going forward. Aside from being hopeful, I also want to mention that the release was not their worst work at least in my opinion, I only feel slighted because I was so anxious to see more in this release and I was expecting them to, if Jormag and Primordus did have to die so quickly, that they would’ve managed to do it in a better way. But that aside, it was at the very least a well done cinematic release. There are many things they could’ve done better with it, I mean you’re fighting right in the middle of 2 elder dragons for cryin out loud and it doesn’t even feel like it, but it still could’ve been a lot worse. Just remember that they were working with a skeleton crew for this.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, radda.8920 said:

But precisely everything was perfectly linked during nightfall where we learn that many events were directly manipulated by him (the charr invasion in ascalon caused by titans,  the annihilation of orr, the madness of shiro, nightfall etc..), we are far from primordius and his abyssal void at the scriptwritting level .

During gw1, we really feel that the story has been worked for a long term and that that they had a project in mind witch ended with the death of abbadon.

 

And during Guild Wars 2 we had a huge build up with six different elder dragons. We've already done three dragons making a big build it for two more when they've been talking about having them face each other for a long enough time is nonsensical. Just having another dragon fight and another and another does nothing at all for me and probably a lot of other people. Six dragons were too many. Getting rid of two of them at the same time was a good call in my opinion.

[lezbefriends.7516]

10 hours ago, Dami.5046 said:

EoD will need to be perfection. 

The real issue is what that 'perfection' is because we are all different.

It's unfortunate how IBS finished and i know people are upset, but i would rather have an expansion coming then a few more episodes of it. I for one don't mind the easy 2g and loot.

Besides that content was free, I would save up the uproar when the 'paid' content drops.

 

"Perfection" isn't a meaning that's up for debate, and no, the next expansion does not need to be "perfect."

[otto.5684]

It is very clear that Anet management is lacking. The fact that EOD is in development should not have hindered the LW. But Anet is no longer committed to good quality product. LWS5 was half baked and they know it. This is not looking promising for EOD.

[voltaicbore.8012]

7 hours ago, Joote.4081 said:

I don't get it why people are so upset.  The whole story was kitten, so did they expect for it to somehow, by some miracle, to get better.

 

I agree with the sentiment but would replace "whole story" with "whole concept of the Saga". While the story in GW2 is overall quite weak and often downright juvenile, I think the very first story elements of the Saga actually had some meager promise at the beginning.

 

However, I believe none of that matters because ultimately the Saga concept itself was deeply flawed and half baked to begin with. The tried to sell this to us as "expansion-like" content, while having throwaway masteries that look exactly like other throwaway living world masteries, and no apparent plan for elite specs. So in other words, the Saga would not offer us new or changed ways to play the game at all, but would only extend the story.... just like a standard living world season. Even in the story, it turns out they bit off more than they could chew. How many more episodes would we need to have done Primordus and Jormag justice? Each could arguably fill their own independent expansion or living world season. Cramming them into a package already filled with a Charr civil war, the murders of Almorra and Smodur, talking directly to the Spirits of the Wild for the first time, grappling with the legacy of Svanir/Jora/Aesgir, etc.... utterly ludicrous.

 

ANet set itself up to fail from the very beginning. It sounded like a terrible idea to me from day one, and covid/pivoting to the xpac are just convenient excuses at this point. It was always going to end terribly.