Rangers again

[anduriell.6280]

1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Staff isn't melee lol. 

 

MH dagger may be the biggest abomination of a weapon we have; I think he means more like the old days of Sword/Warhorn and Axe/Axe, or Sword / Axe and Axe / Warhorn or Sword / Warhorn + GS...you know actual melee.  

 

When pets didn't suck and could draw some aggro (and live for more than 5 seconds) so that ranger could get in close and do a lot of damage.  

i know that but staff isn't projectile either so it's not affected by reflects. 

If we are going to be nit picky Axe/Axe or Axe/warhorn is not melee either with that 900 range.  

 

The pets thing is much more complicated than "just suck" and i do vehemently agree with you they need a full rework. Although from my point of view the pets should be an small source of damage (with some outliers) and a pool of utility. F2s just being an "on CD additional damage" is not something i find fun to play with. 

 

 

 

[bigo.9037]

31 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

The fact that almost all of them use Sic Em, OWP, RF 'burst' which is GREAT for unaware ganking but horrible for literally everything else.  Seriously, most Soulbeasts I see spend more time running than doing anything useful.  Like not running to kite, just plain running not to die.  

 

Outside of that, you get the 'wall rangers' that will try to be useful by picking off a single target or using barrage behind a door, but they get run over as soon as the door/wall comes down.  

 

All that said, I've found great success as playing roamer/scout/flanker.  I don't use longbow or greatsword though.  

Uhh. Soulbeast has the highest single target burst dmg in the game. Gz on having success without lb or gs, cus that must be somewhat difficult considering gs lb are by far the best weapon sets for roaming. Sword-wh / Lb is possibly better for duels but I don’t think it is for general purpose roaming. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Just now, bigo.9037 said:

Uhh. Soulbeast has the highest single target burst dmg in the game. Gz on having success without lb or gs, cus that must be somewhat difficult considering gs lb are by far the best weapon sets for roaming. Sword-wh / Lb is possibly better for duels but I don’t think it is for general purpose roaming. 

 

I don't run SB at all for the aforementioned reasons of it being too one-dimensional for anyone's liking; thus the reason for this topic existing in the first place.  

[Sereath.1428]

Meanwhile it is the second or third most overplayed class for roaming (or any small group play really), with thief being the first.

Edited May 20, 2021 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Rangers are not unwelcome in WvW.

The way most people play Ranger, however, is.

THIS.

Examples:
1. People try to be pew pew longbow or something way off tag --- such a meme
(1b.) Running away when the rest of the squad is dead to tell the tale. --- bonus meme points

2. Running druid or core ranger with gear that isn't even useful such as wanderer's or commander's and then not stowing pet in a stealth push...
3. Playing soulbeast with projectile weapons in a melee push into a reflect
4. Staying on a wall with a longbow and running away when entire squad dies--- such a meme
5. Focusing one person that isn't even the commander and then being proud when you down someone that is instantly ressed by function gyro or other means --- happens

It's the same thing as if you try to raid and bring your openworld sustain soldier gear druid bearbow and stay max range. You will be told the same thing, maybe in an even worse fashion before you will be laughed at and kicked.

If you are serious about WvW, play immob soulbeast with Greatsword or sword+axe and stack on tag. Stow pets, immob on push, share stances (especially dolyak stance). It's that simple.

[anduriell.6280]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you are serious about WvW, play immob soulbeast with Greatsword or sword+axe and stack on tag. Stow pets, immob on push, share stances (especially dolyak stance). It's that simple.

if you are serious about WvW you don't play ranger. Period. 

Immob soulbeast is a meme and no commander will pick that over any other class. Literally any other. 

 

[Infusion.7149]

11 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

if you are serious about WvW you don't play ranger. Period. 

Immob soulbeast is a meme and no commander will pick that over any other class. Literally any other. 

 

From what I've seen some players only play one class.

[anduriell.6280]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

From what I've seen some players only play one class.

I think that's why some website came up with the pity immob build, if they are going to play with that no matter what let's give them something that brings something. 

 

I do play with some but only undesired classes, deadeye, ranger, reaper when nobody wanted them... I am afraid as soon as the ranger became meta if it happens at any time in the future, i will move on to the next ginger child.  

 

 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

It's not really the class; it's the players.  Every class has a build that can contribute, though admittingly some are just much more desired than others.  Too many players play the class by humping the wall and thinking they're doing something. (oh you downed someone in a 40 person zerg that ress's them, nice!) and only exist to be pulled off a wall.

 

The main problem is that there is a lot of projectile hate. This means your arrows are either ineffective at best, or killing your allies via enemy reflects. This can be mitigated by unblockables, but there are very few people that use that right.

 

Though I really don't think it's any better to call the players useless lol.

 

Anyhow, if you want to be in a zerg with a ranger, ditch the longbow and run either stance share + immob (slb)  or mass immob (druid). The fact you know how to do it will show you actually have brain cells and if built properly survives basically any zerg without support or a squad. Then there will be no need to cry about not being invited.  But in the off chance you want to join the squad and they're probably running arcdps and you can easily prove your mettle there. Would they really want to kick one of their top dps's or actually give them a party? Depends if they have brain cells but I think putting forth results is better than anything forum warriors can type here.

Edited May 20, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[welch.2785]

so, as stated, rangers need some love from developers to do more damage and equal other players.  we can discuss all day long and will change nothing. better if we post asking arnet to give rangers some killing power...  keep posting and complaining.. only way to get anything done

 

[joneirikb.7506]

Rangers doesn't need damage, they can do plenty already.

What you want, to make ranger viable in WvW Zerg gameplay, requires that the ranger has tools that support Zerg gameplay. The main thing it needs is a weapon that works with zerg play, preferably a weapon that lets you place multiple aoe attacks, with at least one support ability. Because AoE's doesn't get reflected unlike the projectile attacks. And some kind of buff to give out to other players that is wanted in zerg gameplay.

Before the 25-02-2020 patch that reduced damage all over WvW, Ranger has some crazy meme damage builds, they had so many damage modifiers that people joked they could probably kill people in full ministrel gear. And they where still NOT WANTED in Zergs. So damage has nothing to do with it. Zerg play is based on synergy between classes, and Ranger simply doesn't have any that is wanted in WvW.

[LionZero.3479]

With retal gone the old signet of the hunt combined with piercing woulda actually allowed ranger to pressure a bit, sadly unblockable is pretty much killed in favour of number safety, i guess perma reflect/damage reduction/banner/siege/mount stomping and stuff like signet of the hunt had to be made useless or nerfed in favour of the numbered passive playstyle, seems easy acces to quick ressing wasn't enough to keep the herd together.

[welch.2785]

ok, so damage may not be the way. we arguing words. point is arnet needs to make rangers playable in groups or solo if they go different route

 

[Shroud.2307]

Being in a squad means you provide support be it offensive or defensive, and require support of your own. Ranger doesn't need support, it has the tools to survive on its own, and it doesn't provide anything meaningful.

You can contribute perfectly fine without being in a squad so long as you know what you're doing. This is one of those things where people just want it because they don't have it.

[Melian.5368]

The only viable ranger build rn is the immobeast. You have to use hyena as pet gs+double axe as weapons, also the immob skills entangle, signet and mud. Works well against 20-25 man groups but anything bigger you will fail to make an impact. 

 

That being said, the groups don't want you because you are more harm than good, because of reflects and rallying. Rangers die easily on engage and rally the enemy downed players. 

[Zikory.6871]

20 minutes ago, Melian.5368 said:

The only viable ranger build rn is the immobeast. You have to use hyena as pet gs+double axe as weapons, also the immob skills entangle, signet and mud. Works well against 20-25 man groups but anything bigger you will fail to make an impact. 

 

That being said, the groups don't want you because you are more harm than good, because of reflects and rallying. Rangers die easily on engage and rally the enemy downed players. 

This is only partially true. Soul beast can put up big melee damage competing with any other top damage deals. Soul beast is in the same boat as Berserker, Holo and Weaver, really high damage potential but worthless if the player isn't good and you can't stack them like Scourge or herald or even Dh. 

Most rangers don't conform to a squad playstyle, they roam in squad and are generally a liability. Don't give them a party, they rally people, give them a party and they offer nothing to it. 

Most guild groups probably already have players that want to play Soulbeast, if they are going to bring one, its not going to be a random pug. Additionally, most pug commanders I've seen have a few regulars they let play Soulbeast. 

My suggestion, get over it and learn to play a class that people want in squad. Players that help make things easier for squad leaders generally get away with more stuff like bringing Ranger and thieves to rallies. 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:57 AM, welch.2785 said:

i am tired of rangers being told they are useless in WvW. if arnet does not want them in WvW then remove the abililty to join WvW. Or improve their abilities to be of use in WvW....  no group wants rangers. i am sure arnet did not design them to be kept out of groups. groups get the best and most loot, lot more social aspect to the game, and more fun experience. so please make us more useless in groups so we can join the community or make them unable to get into WvW...

i'm telling u this one time mate. nobody removed your ability to swap classes from thief or ranger to something simply meta, man.

 

ranger just is not useful if u want to fight a serious group. sorry, but u need to understand how the meta works first, how all classes work first before u can even think of bringing unusual stuff into Wvw.

 

like, as ranger your best use is against very slow, stack, not numerous targets where u can do your huge crazy burst thing straight into their face. once support is in game, this is basically condemend. strips destroy your classes.

 

every class is okay for doing the ppt-things.. but on a full map, those off-meta classes are a huge handicap. it feels often very disrespectful when people on ranger or thief just hardcore refuse to play anything else. i personally own by now every single class. but i know that i'd never bring a unsuitable class, unless i'd want to be an annoyance to everyone else on the map.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:57 AM, welch.2785 said:

i am tired of rangers being told they are useless in WvW. if arnet does not want them in WvW then remove the abililty to join WvW. Or improve their abilities to be of use in WvW....  no group wants rangers. i am sure arnet did not design them to be kept out of groups. groups get the best and most loot, lot more social aspect to the game, and more fun experience. so please make us more useless in groups so we can join the community or make them unable to get into WvW...

Looking at their core kit, I'm pretty sure the only groups they're somehow viable is PvE dungeon content at most, since they don't provide much on their own to the rest of party(only spirits do something).
You then have druid, which is so poorly designed that is only available in Raids and uber aids in WvW/PvP small scale stuff, which would need reworks to be a "support" and not just pure "aids spam" bot, agreed on that.
In case of Soulbeast, they have stances, which are a bit too strong for their roaming(overall ranger is a bit nutsy in roaming and need shaves in either damage or sustain) and if traited they're semi-weak for groups.
They're one of best roamers in WvW currently, also I'm pretty sure you can be still useful to groups as a scout, WvW isn't only about smashing head against other people after all.

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Being in a squad means you provide support be it offensive or defensive, and require support of your own. Ranger doesn't need support, it has the tools to survive on its own, and it doesn't provide anything meaningful.

You can contribute perfectly fine without being in a squad so long as you know what you're doing. This is one of those things where people just want it because they don't have it.

Except thats not really the enviroment that the WvW community fosters, now is it?

 

When the pro commander descends on the border its never a matter of "oh yeah you are great outside the squad, please support our tag by taking the flank and protecting against enemy gankers or keeping a heads up at range", its everyone get the kitten on the kittening tag or kittening leave the border. 

[Dami.5046]

Thanks all, I have learnt alot from this!  I will now make a thread about condi revs.

😊

Edited May 21, 2021 by Dami.5046

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except thats not really the enviroment that the WvW community fosters, now is it?

 

When the pro commander descends on the border its never a matter of "oh yeah you are great outside the squad, please support our tag by taking the flank and protecting against enemy gankers or keeping a heads up at range", its everyone get the kitten on the kittening tag or kittening leave the border. 

 

This isn't my experience.  I've supported a random commander plenty of times by doing just that--protecting against enemy gankers means those who are lagging behind the tag can get back to it without getting downed.  Can also stall objectives super easily and / or be a distraction long enough for reinforcements to show up.  

 

I also tend to get invited to squads a lot if I'm not running with a guild, so that has to count for something.  

 

Essentially, underestimating the flanking game is a bad idea, because it undermines people's need to chase things.  That urge alone can unravel some of the better groups if you do it well enough.  Double down on people think "ranger = free bag" and you have struck gold when they can't down you and waste too much time trying to do so instead of focusing.  

 

From my understanding, Ranger isn't wanted in traditional zerg vs. zerg as it's too easy in a way.  You don't need to flank a lot of times or do anything fancy as it's all about boons and sustain, so just get a bunch of feints until one ball runs over the other.

[welch.2785]

maybe someday i will find a player who understands my issue...  seems simple to me, but no one here understands it... every class can play wvw in group except ranger. they not wanted, even if allowed in due to lot of spots to fill... what is wrong with giving rangers an option, solo or group...  simple question... give those who want to play a ranger in a group the skills to do it... that is my only issue. give ranger the option to join groups with a usable skill...

[joneirikb.7506]

2 hours ago, welch.2785 said:

maybe someday i will find a player who understands my issue...  seems simple to me, but no one here understands it... every class can play wvw in group except ranger. they not wanted, even if allowed in due to lot of spots to fill... what is wrong with giving rangers an option, solo or group...  simple question... give those who want to play a ranger in a group the skills to do it... that is my only issue. give ranger the option to join groups with a usable skill...

It's not that people doesn't understand it, many do, and I've already told you what needs to change with the class to make it so. Druid was supposed to be an elite spec to change this, with the way the staff works and its buffs, but it didn't work out for wvw.

But Ranger isn't the only one, Thief has never really had a good zerg presence either. And other classes has changed in and out of the zerg meta over the years. It's nothing new, this same situation has existed for 8,5 years already. And you should have seen how bad Rangers actually was the first couple of years. 

 

But for some reason Ranger players have always been more vocal about it, and often shown no signs of trying to understand why things are as they are, so it's become sort of a meme that ranger players complain about stuff. After 8,5 years, people just doesn't take it seriously any longer.

Most players that have a moderate interest in WvW, usually end up picking up at least one other class anyways, so most wvw players take that for granted and doesn't really see why anyone would self-restrict themselves that badly.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

10 hours ago, welch.2785 said:

maybe someday i will find a player who understands my issue...  seems simple to me, but no one here understands it... every class can play wvw in group except ranger. they not wanted, even if allowed in due to lot of spots to fill... what is wrong with giving rangers an option, solo or group...  simple question... give those who want to play a ranger in a group the skills to do it... that is my only issue. give ranger the option to join groups with a usable skill...

 

From reading posts in here it seems that people don’t realize that ranger can hit multiple targets at once.  Although it’s not really made for big group fights, it can be incredibly useful if you know how to play it in a group.  
 

I run Soulbeast full time.  I even run squads on it.  NO they are not “fight” squads but they’re quite effective against most groups we meet unless we’re outnumbered.  

 

I am welcomed into the fight groups that I run with but admittedly it’s  an exceptional situation.  If it’s serious fights then typically most people will be asked to run fight classes.  The dps, on 5 at once, that I put out has me at or near  the top of the dps/damage chart regularly.  That’s what you need to be able to do, and you need to know when to drop the right bombs in the right spot to generate downs, then focus on finishing them. 

 

If you truly love this class then figure out how to prove you’re  more than just a wall humper or one hit wonder.   And ignore the rest that don’t understand the class. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Some Call Me Tim.2319

[welch.2785]

yes some call, i agree, i use similar tactics when in group.. works good if you wait until battle starts and hit them. too early and your damage is healed fast... AOE, then send pet, the rapid fire, then repeat if opportunity there.. some groups scatter in fight and it hard to hit a bunch hard...  if druid was to be the wvw version, why have more not pushed for improvements ???  games improve where the most noise is made...  as for playing several classes , i do, but i enjoy ranger more. all players should have that option, not just the ones you like.