Staff Mirage still needs a nerfby a significant amount, Dueling Illusions Axe/Torch+Pistol Mirage is supposed to be the dps class right but there's no way it can compete.

[Alquinon.2957]

Do people on this forum even play mesmer?

 

Staff mirage is still a bit overtuned but that's not even the biggest issue facing mesmers in general right now. Staff mirage is like the bandaid covering over all of the issues mesmers face with clone and phantasm management. "Oh we have a overpowered build right now everything is fine!"

 

No it's not. It's sad that people aren't complaining about the stealth nerf anet introduced in the last patch more. Your clones now will despawn if they don't attack anything within 4 seconds of being spawned. That means if you spawn a clone at a bad time and your target dashes away or go invulnerable temporarily, your clone is just gone and so is a good portion of your damage. The way that your self-deception spawned clones target is also super clunky, especially with multiple targets. There are also videos documenting phantasms target the wrong thing completely in raids too.

 

So if you guys really care about mesmers being "good", instead of trying to cling onto this one overpowered build you guys could try to beg anet to fix the broader issues overall.

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, dandamanno.4136 said:

 

They could have put the Alacrity on Staff 3, maybe around 8 seconds. Traited Staff 3 is 14.5 second CD, the 8s Alacrity brings it down to 12.5 seconds by itself. A little boon duration and you've got perma-alacrity support.

 

Also drop the Vulnerability and throw some burning on it to give staff 3 some good condition.

If alacrity is put onto staff 3 it would no longer be exclusive to mirage , you would be able to use it on core mesmer and chrono.

That doesn't even count the fact that the clones sometimes bug out so ultimately the reliability of alacrity from staff mirage is iffy unless you stack staff mirages. That brings us full circle to why chrono was nerfed along with DH in the past , which is class stacking. The only difference is staff mirage is overperforming in a few scenarios (boss fights with high attack rates and low melee uptime) while not being amazing versus trash mobs due to the clone situation.

Staff really needs to be retuned so that it is more useful versus trash mobs while not being utterly broken versus high attack speed bosses with 3 clones up.

[Kondor.2904]

3 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Well, you get Fury AND Might from AA.

Chaos Armor: melee.

Chaos Storm: melee, to get full benefits from this spell such as self buffs + Phase Retreat into Chaos Storm to get Chaos Armor etc.

Sure you can stay in 900 to 1200 range all the time but that would make Staff less useful.

You get perma might from ambushes. Scuffed aa fury is irrelevant, since you can get perma fury from dueling or chaos anyway, even if it, for some reason, not supplied by your group. 
I already mentioned chaos armor, as an exception, yes. But you only don't need to camp melee for it, you only need to get into melee range once every 25s (not accounting alac). That's not what's called melee ranged weapon, mate. 

The point of a ranged weapon is not that you can camp dps from 1200, you don't want to do that on any spec. The point is that you have way more leeway during mechanics, aoe spam, etc. Like with scourge, you can keep getting value from your ranged dps when more risky melee classes cannot. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Kondor.2904]

Double post.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Senqu.8054]

4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Exactly! Ever since the patch all i read are complaints...

How??? Why people, why???

Yeah the contra again but I would not say ANet did something good for us. I think it’s better explained with an abstract example.

 

The community got grapes (chrono). Grapes are good and tasty and we enjoyed them but with the time the grapes got dry and they became raisins. Not everyone likes raisins but well you could enjoy them if you are really hungry.
 

In the mean time we got chocolate cockie dough (mirage). And it was great, we could eat raisins (what we didn’t like soo much but still kind of grapes so yey) for a more freshly sweet and chocolate cookies for a heavier sweet taste. Both not the same but still, you could say they can be threatened as a nice candy.

 

Not long ago someone came to the idea to make vegan cookies. Not everyone’s favorite but they are still chocolate cookies, I mean who says no to it. But the problem was, we had no vegan chocolate. So what we got was vegan cookies without chocolate (one dodge mirage). Still eatable but not what you ate the past years and you definitely miss the sweet chocolate taste. 

 

And now someone thought it’s a great idea to put the raisins in the vegan cookie dough and call it a day. But the people who liked the grapes (chrono) are now not only without grapes but also without raisins and the ones that loved chocolate cookies (two dodge mirage) have now to eat raisins. You can eat the cookies for sure. They are most likely even tasty. But god kitten I wanted grapes and chocolate cookies. Not vegan raisin cookies.

 

And the best part is, the plate (core Mesmer),  you served everything on, fell down in the process and broke.

 

Some are eating now vegan raisin cookies and say „don’t care“ and some think „are you seriously kidding me“

 

 

[Kondor.2904]

4 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I totally agree with you! I seriously dont get why mesmer players has to complain about this! For once our profession is doing good, and we have to destroy it. And then we whine again when Anet listens and nerfs us even more... Dont get it...

 

Is it an easy build to go with staff/condi? Yes it is, but you decide for yourself how you want to play this game. I try to use my rotations as much as possible and not only relying on staff all the time, and that helps me alot. The difference staff makes for me is that it actually boosts me up with boons etc. which helps when I change weapons. That actually helps alot since we only have one dodge in WvW and PvP (when going mirage).

I'm pretty sure most complains are towards the specific PvE build and its performance in instanced PvE content. Not sure why people keep mixing it up with WvW, PvP. The weapon/build performance in those modes is a completely different story. 

Talking about PvE, our profession has already had several efficient builds before the patch that had to be twitcked in certain areas to optimise general class performance, including the more fast-pased lowman content, like fractals. It did not need another kitten build to balance, especially a one that's supplying alacrity and confusion, when we're supposed to already have a spec and builds that were specifically designed to do that. 

[Tseison.4659]

I’m going to assume this request for a “nerf” is for PvE and not the other modes cuz mirage is still not good in PvP/WvW without the 2nd dodge...

Edited May 31, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Alquinon.2957]

OP linked 2 raid logs, I wonder what they could be talking about hmmmmmmmm. 🤔

[Mungo Zen.9364]

4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Exactly! Ever since the patch all i read are complaints...

How??? Why people, why???

perhaps because Anet framed these changes by saying Chrono was over performing in raids and was too good, nerfed Chrono and then gave Mirage more than Chrono has had in a long while (DPS and Boonshare)

 

Can anyone say Chrono is on the same level as Mirage these days? In any metric (excluding WvW dodges)? 

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mesmers are never going to be good again if the community always has a problem with whatever Anet does.

If mesmers are the ones asking for nerfs, we already lost and Mesmer is going to be trash forever.

 

But if they maybe make the Staff a boon/utility weapon, and useful in WvW (with 2 dodges!!!), and buff Axe to what it once was, it might actually be good. But they'd really need to redesign what Staff 3 does, and make it so it applies some other boons, maybe even boonstrip or clenses - plus - redesign staff traits to reflect it being a support weapon.

 

Because this is going nowhere. They buff staff damage - mesmers complain. They give staff alacrity - mesmers complain. Mesmer finally reaches a semblence of being good - mesmers complain.

 

Can we al just stop complaining and be thankful that at least one mesmer build can be top tier? It's fine when other classes are top tier but mesmers can't be - god forbid. But it's even worse than that - it's self defeating attitude that will lead mesmer to beyond trash because anet isn't going to overthink this like the people on the forums do - they're just going to meganerf everything without thinking again and you all will go back to complaining how mesmer is trash.

 

Think about what you're doing.

 

When it's doing 51k DPS and able to deliever full uptime on alacrity in viper gear on a 3 button rotation. No. 

 

It's not fine for any class to be overpowered.

 

And u will find just as much demand for scourge to be nerfed as a example. 

 

Condi thief got nerfed for doing the same DPS as u without alacrity to boot. 

 

So no. It's not fine for a class to remain wildly overpowered. Ur litterally benching half the classes to stack mirages.

 

You don't seem to reliese this. 

 

Anyone doing less DPS then you effectively is now trash. Because the bars lifted. 

 

Why take a ranger? Why take a thief. Why take a reaper?... why take a elementalist? When you can out DPS them all.

 

Because Ur now the top bar, everything behind you is now trash tier. So whys it ok for your class to effectively power creep the game to a new level. 

 

You don't seem to see the fact that comparitively to mirage. Alot of classes are "trash tier". 

[Veprovina.4876]

4 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Yeah the contra again but I would not say ANet did something good for us. I think it’s better explained with an abstract example.

 

The community got grapes (chrono). Grapes are good and tasty and we enjoyed them but with the time the grapes got dry and they became raisins. Not everyone likes raisins but well you could enjoy them if you are really hungry.
 

In the mean time we got chocolate cockie dough (mirage). And it was great, we could eat raisins (what we didn’t like soo much but still kind of grapes so yey) for a more freshly sweet and chocolate cookies for a heavier sweet taste. Both not the same but still, you could say they can be threatened as a nice candy.

 

Not long ago someone came to the idea to make vegan cookies. Not everyone’s favorite but they are still chocolate cookies, I mean who says no to it. But the problem was, we had no vegan chocolate. So what we got was vegan cookies without chocolate (one dodge mirage). Still eatable but not what you ate the past years and you definitely miss the sweet chocolate taste. 

 

And now someone thought it’s a great idea to put the raisins in the vegan cookie dough and call it a day. But the people who liked the grapes (chrono) are now not only without grapes but also without raisins and the ones that loved chocolate cookies (two dodge mirage) have now to eat raisins. You can eat the cookies for sure. They are most likely even tasty. But god kitten I wanted grapes and chocolate cookies. Not vegan raisin cookies.

 

And the best part is, the plate (core Mesmer),  you served everything on, fell down in the process and broke.

 

Some are eating now vegan raisin cookies and say „don’t care“ and some think „are you seriously kidding me“

 

 

Amusing read lol, and i do get what you're saying but - response at the end of the quotes...

 

4 hours ago, Alquinon.2957 said:

OP linked 2 raid logs, I wonder what they could be talking about hmmmmmmmm. 🤔

 

3 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

perhaps because Anet framed these changes by saying Chrono was over performing in raids and was too good, nerfed Chrono and then gave Mirage more than Chrono has had in a long while (DPS and Boonshare)

 

Can anyone say Chrono is on the same level as Mirage these days? In any metric (excluding WvW dodges)? 

 

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

When it's doing 51k DPS and able to deliever full uptime on alacrity in viper gear on a 3 button rotation. No. 

 

It's not fine for any class to be overpowered.

 

And u will find just as much demand for scourge to be nerfed as a example. 

 

Condi thief got nerfed for doing the same DPS as u without alacrity to boot. 

 

So no. It's not fine for a class to remain wildly overpowered. Ur litterally benching half the classes to stack mirages.

 

You don't seem to reliese this. 

 

Anyone doing less DPS then you effectively is now trash. Because the bars lifted. 

 

Why take a ranger? Why take a thief. Why take a reaper?... why take a elementalist? When you can out DPS them all.

 

Because Ur now the top bar, everything behind you is now trash tier. So whys it ok for your class to effectively power creep the game to a new level. 

 

You don't seem to see the fact that comparitively to mirage. Alot of classes are "trash tier". 

 

So i'm going to multi quote this because this applies to everyone i quoted.

 

Anet is not going to overthink Mesmers like we are doing right now on the forums. They're not going to overthing anything. They're just going to slap another huge "for everything" nerf that they think is ok - especially because literally after a buffs - people who got the buff are asking for nerfs themselves.

 

The approach to this needs to be different from the community, not badmouthing and (at times) really ugly arguing about something Anet did in hopes of bringing the class to a more playable state. I don't think i have yet seen a post thanking Anet for buffing Mesmers. Or at least not as much as there should be. But i've seen plenty of asking for nerfs and dps calculations and arguing about one good thing Anet did after they neglected us for so long.

 

Just play the kitten game maybe? Who cares if Mirage is powerful now, last month this was someone else, next month there will be someone else again. Balances change, and instead of asking for nerfs to our own class so blatantly, how about constructive criticism while retaining thankfullness for the buff? There was some here and there, but not with thread names like this one. We need threads that invite discussion, what can be better, how something can be changed to better fit X idk, not just "NERF" shouting right after a buff.

 

Anyone at Anet reading all this nerf shouting will conclude Mesmers are ungreatfull little kittens and just disregard the finer points that someone might have had in all this. And there were some, but they're going to be burried under all this nerf nonesense.

 

I don't know, there has to be a better way than this.

[Puck.3697]

53 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

he approach to this needs to be different from the community, not badmouthing and (at times) really ugly arguing about something Anet did in hopes of bringing the class to a more playable state. I don't think i have yet seen a post thanking Anet for buffing Mesmers. Or at least not as much as there should be. But i've seen plenty of asking for nerfs and dps calculations and arguing about one good thing Anet did after they neglected us for so long.

 

why would people be thankful, i dunno where this mentality comes from.. right a example

 

Say for example Ranger got buffed enormously, its suddenyl doing 50-60k DPS Consistently.. its beign Stacked in Groups and in Raids. its overtaking PvP Meta.

 

Right lets see how that'd impact a I dunno a weaver.

 

your now rejected from PuGs.

your now possibly benched in guilds.

your going to be Asked to roll a Ranger.

Rangers will gain Popularity while other classes fall down metrically.

 

53 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Just play the kitten game maybe? Who cares if Mirage is powerful now

 

Newsflash, if ur being left out of groups because they want a Mirage u simply are losing the ability to play the game, dont act like the meta dont matter. we all know it does weather warranted or not.

 

53 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Anyone at Anet reading all this nerf shouting will conclude Mesmers are ungreatfull little kittens and just disregard the finer points that someone might have had in all this. And there were some, but they're going to be burried under all this nerf nonesense.

 

Anet likely know they people screeching for nerfs are hte Non-mesmers are being told to mirage or gtfo.

 

what u are promoting is:

 

"Who cares if mirage is powerfuyl.. just Reroll bro". because the mentality that Incase something becomes too weak Dont nerf it.. Basically is saying "Just Accept being Trash tier so mesmer can shine".

 

the class, is Increasing Power creep, in a game which power creep has already caused damage, each power creep trivalizes PvE Content again and again. So yes. its about time people stand against it. Classes shouldnt be just randomly Pushing the highest DPS 10k by 10k continously at such speeds.

 

The point is

 

Mesmer in current state. Makes other Classes the "Wrong choice". Dont roll other classes. Just ALL roll mesmer, because its the Strongest... meta matters and thats just factual its intergrated into the gaming community far too much for "it dont matter.. it doesnt impact u". because it does.

 

even im at this point considering rerolling mesmer..because whats the point in doing other things when u can trivalise content with a class doing 15k DPS More then Pure DPS Options Lmfao.

 

P.S

 

Breaking a class. breaking the game further. and Pushing power creep even further into the sky.. aint a "good thing anet did". its Destroying the game. they'll kill their own Game if they keep doing this. their making their own content irrelevant.. continously.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Leonidrex.5649]

the fact that mesmer gets shafted again and again and again day in and day out in every content in the game is no excuse for SUPPORT spec to be pulling over 50k kittening dps. Nerf this kitten already, thank you very much.
Why the kitten was alacrity added to ambush of all things is beyond me, if anything they could give it to chaos armor as a detonate skill, and a trait in inspiration as its a supportive traitline.
Now we have full dps that also gives perma alacrity, 25stacks of might. PEPEGA.
TLDR
1 remove buffs from staff ambush.
2 add them to staff 4 and inspiration
3 rebalance other utilities to make support mesmer a viable option, but not overperforming or underperforming compared to other specs.
 

[Veprovina.4876]

I give up.

[Puck.3697]

not even pure DPS Should be doing 50k DPS.. lmfao, this games balanced for classes to do what? 30k lmfao... honestly how do u have a game with no verticle grind.. but Power growth being equal to a game With verticle grind.

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I give up.

I understand what you are coming from and you are probably right.
you are afraid they will 
1 shaft it into unusability
or 
2 make a nerf that will nerf entirety of mesmer to " balance " it, and it might not even be good anyways.
but those are no excuses for current state of cmes. I would rather mesmer be medicore then be this kittening broken.
Its just not right. Cmon, we are better then this.

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I totally agree with you! I seriously dont get why mesmer players has to complain about this!

Well, you have to understand that many people actually DO value some level of challenge in playing their preferred classes. I'm an admitted noob to Mesmer ... but when I play staff mirage, I have a performance level that's on par with any of my other PVE builds that are much more challenging to play. In otherwords, I don't need to know anything about the class to play this build and be massively successful with it. There is jeopardy in this. 

 

Ultimately, I think that if we are going to see Anet lean THIS far towards trivializing their game, then there can be NO argument for improvement for reasons of performance or engagement. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[necromaniac.7629]

15 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Staff is good as it is now! For once they made staff fun and useful! The nerfs that they made was understandable, but more nerfs is going to make staff useless again! No thanx... lets for once keep something good for mirage, since it's already been too much nerfed with the one-dodge nonsense. Staff actually helps a great deal with surviving (from a mirage point of view) in WvW aswell, so NOPE no more nerfs to staff... 

staff been fun and useful, not every weapon will be meta for high-end group  content but staff was perfect for solo group intended content, and give back mirage its dodge back in wvw, boom problem fixed

Edited June 1, 2021 by necromaniac.7629

[necromaniac.7629]

If you guys can't realize how over-tuned this  build is then you are biased lol. Its not even like how power chrono was where it was also over-tuned BUT was also skill intensive rotation, with this build its so easy to  be effective while also having good survivability, literally spamming dodges and evades.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

And? Seriously? And? Are the PvE mobs complaining? Who cares if it isn't a challenge or easy for you? The point of the game is to have fun. It's not to destroy someone else's enjoyment because anyone else perceives something isn't to their specific liking. You don't like it? Don't play it.

 

If you ask ArenaNet to nerf anything, they're not going to use a delicate hand. They're going to use a sledgehammer. After years and years of nerfs, if you don't get that, then there's nothing more to discuss.

[mordefelix.5826]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:02 PM, animal are you.1637 said:

bro u posted outdated logs and the only other reply said "arcdps is bugged" as a cope lmao

 

14 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

And? Seriously? And? Are the PvE mobs complaining? Who cares if it isn't a challenge or easy for you? The point of the game is to have fun. It's not to destroy someone else's enjoyment because anyone else perceives something isn't to their specific liking. You don't like it? Don't play it.

 

If you ask ArenaNet to nerf anything, they're not going to use a delicate hand. They're going to use a sledgehammer. After years and years of nerfs, if you don't get that, then there's nothing more to discuss.

I respectfully disagree. ANET LITERALLY said themselves that they want axe/torch mirage to be the top dps class in THEIR POST. Staff overshadows by far, but you know let's forget what anet said right? 😄 Oh also for reference look at the post below plus just here to review that they literally want this to be the case lmao. Yeah it isn't fun when you see something that obviously supposed to be a boon class literally kitten on every other dps class. THAT'S THE POINT OF BALANCE. GAMES are not FUN when they're extremely UNBALANCED. League of Legends, DOTA, Overwatch, WOW, FXXIV. If they makes things incredibly unbalanced then people don't enjoy  it. Staff mirage is ironically SO much more broken the other classes in this regard so YEAH I'm gonna say something.

Your argument about the sledgehammer ALTHOUGH understandable does not mean that WE SHOULDN'T say something lmao. That's also just an incredible assumption for you to think that people are just not gonna say anything and be like "yeah, let's keep the game unbalanced TO THIS SEVERITY and be like ok with this brain dead class rotation". I'll take the kittening sledgehammer to this dumb staff if it means the best class to bring isn't brain dead. 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[mordefelix.5826]

And all these arguments to why THIS class shouldn't be nerfed. YOU GUYS KNOW that Anet LITERALLY said they wanted this to be the case. Yeah I'm going down that road because this literally isn't the case. I'm complaining because THEY LITERALLY agree with me that this SHOULD be the case, but they have not implemented the changes to MAKE this the case. STAFF is the DPS build. There's absolutely NO reason to go axe/torch+ pistol right now lmao. 

Mesmer

We're excited by how enthusiastic everyone is for the staff-wielding mirage. With the recent improvements to Chaos traits, the torment condition's performance in PvE, and the changes to the staff skills themselves, staff is currently overperforming as a boon support weapon. We'd like to keep axe-and-torch as the DPS build, and ease the performance of the mirage's staff down into a competitive support build, which means lowering its overall damage output (and confusion uptime).

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

This is the last I'll say about this nonsense: when the PvE mobs start complaining that anyone is killing them too fast, get back to us.

[mordefelix.5826]

5 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

This is the last I'll say about this nonsense: when the PvE mobs start complaining that anyone is killing them too fast, get back to us.

Lmao no one here is arguing about your kitten PvE mobs. We're talking about kittening raids. Why would I give a kitten about any PvE mob open world crap? You can literally just press one with any class and breeze through the content there. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by mordefelix.5826

[mordefelix.5826]

18 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Why nerfing Staff even more? Do you really want to be limited to Axe only as condi Mirage? Also Staff is more melee than ranged weapon, therefore i don't see a reason why nerfing it even further? You need to stay in melee range to get benefits from AA buffs etc. Why don't you complain about power Greatsword? I guess you don't mind doing superior dmg with power ranged weapon but you don't want to have a good condi ranged weapon? I really don't understand these condition haters. Finally we get a decent "ranged" condi option but no, you want to stick with Axe only?

Literally what? DO you understand what I'm even talking about. I'm not saying the class shouldn't be unplayable. I'm saying a class can't be a boon class AND BE the top dps at the same time. Which it currently is. And all these arguments to why THIS class shouldn't be nerfed. YOU GUYS KNOW that Anet LITERALLY said they wanted this to be the case. Yeah I'm going down that road because this literally isn't the case. I'm complaining because THEY LITERALLY agree with me that this SHOULD be the case, but they have not implemented the changes to MAKE this the case. STAFF is the DPS build. There's absolutely NO reason to go axe/torch+ pistol right now lmao. 

Mesmer

We're excited by how enthusiastic everyone is for the staff-wielding mirage. With the recent improvements to Chaos traits, the torment condition's performance in PvE, and the changes to the staff skills themselves, staff is currently overperforming as a boon support weapon. We'd like to keep axe-and-torch as the DPS build, and ease the performance of the mirage's staff down into a competitive support build, which means lowering its overall damage output (and confusion uptime).