Bunny thumper ranger yay or nay

[Ashantara.8731]

I couldn't care less either way.

[Infusion.7149]

I think people don't fully remember what Bunny Thumper was capable of. It didn't just knock down, it had high melee damage pressure even when not CCing and could res pet. Knocked down targets were hit with deep wound from Crushing Blow or Enraged Lunge with daze from Bestial Mauling and/or Overbearing Smash.

In addition, it used Wild Blow to end stances , Irresistible blow to punish blocking (knock down blocking targets), and Distracting Strike to lock skill usage.

The idea with spears is more in line with the Barrage Pet comp which requires more than one player to run it. That's far less flexible and if you look at what rangers with spears did, it's more or less what you have on axe and shortbow right now (bleeding, cripple). Given that new weapon types are unlikely to be added I don't see that happening. We already have the sustain / pressure-type condi ranger on druids (this fulfills the cripshot / poison arrow ranger section) and the power type rangers on soulbeasts ; other archetypes such as ranger touchers are unlikely.

[Morvran.8265]

I don't see the appeal. Ranger already has a slow 2 handed melee weapon with good CC (GS).

 

The GW1 build also borrowed hammer from Warriors and they risk making the spec feel too much like a hammer warrior if they focus on the CC aspect too much. And if they don't, it's just GS 2.0.

 

Pet focused spec with offhand sword maybe? After 2 specs that kitten/got rid of the pets I'd like one that focuses on them because they are what makes ranger unique. It's the profession mechanic afterall.

[Lazze.9870]

12 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

I don't see the appeal. Ranger already has a slow 2 handed melee weapon with good CC (GS).

 

The GW1 build also borrowed hammer from Warriors and they risk making the spec feel too much like a hammer warrior if they focus on the CC aspect too much. And if they don't, it's just GS 2.0.

 

Pet focused spec with offhand sword maybe? After 2 specs that kitten/got rid of the pets I'd like one that focuses on them because they are what makes ranger unique. It's the profession mechanic afterall.

 

As opposed to DH being guardian's version of a ranger? It depends entirely on whether they nail the ranger flavor or not.

 

Pet focused is gonna be trash in pve/wvw and nerfed to uselessness in pvp when people die to AI. Enjoy the trash spec, I guess.

[Axl.8924]

16 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

I don't see the appeal. Ranger already has a slow 2 handed melee weapon with good CC (GS).

 

The GW1 build also borrowed hammer from Warriors and they risk making the spec feel too much like a hammer warrior if they focus on the CC aspect too much. And if they don't, it's just GS 2.0.

 

Pet focused spec with offhand sword maybe? After 2 specs that kitten/got rid of the pets I'd like one that focuses on them because they are what makes ranger unique. It's the profession mechanic afterall.

 

They could always go shield or spear, but  rangers already got lb and axe for ranged type.

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

16 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

I don't see the appeal. Ranger already has a slow 2 handed melee weapon with good CC (GS).

 

The GW1 build also borrowed hammer from Warriors and they risk making the spec feel too much like a hammer warrior if they focus on the CC aspect too much. And if they don't, it's just GS 2.0.

 

Pet focused spec with offhand sword maybe? After 2 specs that kitten/got rid of the pets I'd like one that focuses on them because they are what makes ranger unique. It's the profession mechanic afterall.

With ranger getting mainhand dagger on soulbeasts enabling to dual wield daggers, I doubt that Anet will go for an offhand sword.

 

It just feels too similar. Also ranger already has many bladed weapons, but doesn't have a real blunt weapon (I don't count staff here, since it is used to shoot magic, not for blunt strikes). So hammer or mace would be great in my opinion, they would actually offer something different.

[Morvran.8265]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:15 PM, Lazze.9870 said:

 

As opposed to DH being guardian's version of a ranger? It depends entirely on whether they nail the ranger flavor or not.

 

Pet focused is gonna be trash in pve/wvw and nerfed to uselessness in pvp when people die to AI. Enjoy the trash spec, I guess.

It's not like hammer would be any better in pvp/wvw. With the squished coefficients any CC skill would deal like 7 damage, which is why hammer is now a support weapon on warrior. It just doesn't work in DPS builds anymore. So if they make a ranger hammer with CC in mind and they don't make this elite a support (why would they, we have Druid), hammer is dead in 2/3 main gamemodes.

 

Besides, bunny thumper was 50/50 on hammer and the pet. So if it'd try to emulate the GW1 version, pets would be important which already kills it for large scale WvW.

 

I feel like Soulbeast was Anet's chance to make ranger good in zergs and it won't get any better than that (support through stances, tankiness, no pet, etc.).

 

 

[anduriell.6280]

I do like the hammer to be the next weapon. 

 

However pets are proven not to work in no-PvE group content , die too easy and are detrimental. Focusing on the pets would be a failure unless the pets aren't replaced by something that can't die. Also if they perform a bit well other players will be complaining the pets are too good and will get nerfed to the uselesslesness as it happened to smokescale, iboga or any pet that minimally works. 

 

We already have 9 years of experience with pets not working, i don't think we need another spec to remind us of it. 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lazze.9870]

13 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

It's not like hammer would be any better in pvp/wvw. With the squished coefficients any CC skill would deal like 7 damage, which is why hammer is now a support weapon on warrior. It just doesn't work in DPS builds anymore. So if they make a ranger hammer with CC in mind and they don't make this elite a support (why would they, we have Druid), hammer is dead in 2/3 main gamemodes.

 

Besides, bunny thumper was 50/50 on hammer and the pet. So if it'd try to emulate the GW1 version, pets would be important which already kills it for large scale WvW.

 

I feel like Soulbeast was Anet's chance to make ranger good in zergs and it won't get any better than that (support through stances, tankiness, no pet, etc.).

 

 

 

Well, you commented on flavor. Flavorwise it doesn't have to be warrior 2.0. CC coefficients are obviously a potential problem for a hammer, but I'm not necessarily 100 % for a hammer either, nor does a hammer need to be as hard CC heavy as the warrior hammer. I'm definetely 100 % against pet focused, though. The hammer would still be optional, better to have a dead weapon than a dead mechanic.

 

It depends what they do with it, and on the rest of the spec. Anything pet focused leaves it dead in wvw, nerfed in pvp and likely outclassed by soulbeast in pve, so what's the point?

 

Core ranger should be the pet focused spec. Ranger is better off in terms of viability if every elite spec tries to steer away from that mechanic as much as possible. 

 

Soulbeast was doomed for bigger zergs the moment they gave it mainhand dagger because that still left it with half the problems core ranger has; only half-decent zerg weapons. It leaves Anet with a blueprint for a petless ranger spec, though.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Drascious.5714]

So the thing many people forget about bunnythumpers was that it was not so much a flavour of playstyle as an abuse of a mixture of mechanics, much the same way iway warriors worked. Ranger actually in terms of measuring up to GW1 represents the many facets of the class very well with trapping, pet usage, ranged and melee combat, spirits. People are looking too much towards GW1 for inspiration for new elite specs but PoF and HoT both proved that you don't need to do that to create interesting and lore fitting specs. The only old mechanic we haven't seen brought in for rangers are preparations which are essentially what thief venoms are, so a elite spec that used something like that i would feel would be most fitting. An offhand sword would also be a very suitable ranger weapon as it fits alot of the fantasy of the class type.

[Kodama.6453]

7 minutes ago, Psykewne.3025 said:

So the thing many people forget about bunnythumpers was that it was not so much a flavour of playstyle as an abuse of a mixture of mechanics, much the same way iway warriors worked. Ranger actually in terms of measuring up to GW1 represents the many facets of the class very well with trapping, pet usage, ranged and melee combat, spirits. People are looking too much towards GW1 for inspiration for new elite specs but PoF and HoT both proved that you don't need to do that to create interesting and lore fitting specs. The only old mechanic we haven't seen brought in for rangers are preparations which are essentially what thief venoms are, so a elite spec that used something like that i would feel would be most fitting. An offhand sword would also be a very suitable ranger weapon as it fits alot of the fantasy of the class type.

I mean, even if the build started because of mechanic interactions, I still think it had a great flavour. I can easily imagine a fierce ranger with a big club throwing you down to then command their pets to brutally maul you.

 

And offhand sword is probably the most boring weapon they could go for when the last weapon for ranger has been mainhand dagger. So basically just a slightly bigger dagger now, yay.

Ranger doesn't have a single blunt weapon in the arsenal.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Bunny thumper in my book. Give it an F5 that causes you and the pet to shadowstep around your foe and break targeting. Give it 'Deceptions' and a stealth skill or two. Give it a stealth attack that deals extra effects if the struck target was CC'd. Hammer of course with several hard CCs on it. Give it a trait within the traitline to steal health on connecting with a hard CC, 1k damage done and 1k health gained, for both you and the pet.

[Axl.8924]

On 6/26/2021 at 1:16 PM, Arheundel.6451 said:

Can't they just give AOES to ranger on hammer or mace or somethin? I think Aoes is one of the things missing for ranger unless i'm mistaken, and this can fit the role for WVW maybe and certain types of things in PVE.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Infusion.7149]

Greatsword is PBAOE since Maul is on such low cooldown, not sure why there's the fixation about AOE. There's a reason why greatsword and offhand axe are recommended for soulbeasts that intend to run with a squad in WVW.

People asking for a projectile weapons are just going to be severely disappointed as it would do nothing for rangers in WVW. Even if the reflects are gone you still need to stack for stealth and boons so expecting to be off tag with a projectile weapon pew-pewing away off on your own means you will be kept in your own subgroup or kicked.
 

As far as CC goes, it doesn't have to be all hard CC you know. That's the major shortcoming of warrior hammer after all hard CC damage was taken away.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Greatsword is PBAOE since Maul is on such low cooldown, not sure why there's the fixation about AOE. There's a reason why greatsword and offhand axe are recommended for soulbeasts that intend to run with a squad in WVW.

People asking for a projectile weapons are just going to be severely disappointed as it would do nothing for rangers in WVW. Even if the reflects are gone you still need to stack for stealth and boons so expecting to be off tag with a projectile weapon pew-pewing away off on your own means you will be kept in your own subgroup or kicked.
 

As far as CC goes, it doesn't have to be all hard CC you know. That's the major shortcoming of warrior hammer after all hard CC damage was taken away.

They can get a hard CC weapon, it just needs a trait/mechanic to do other things with that hard CC. Like extra damage from a 'stealth' attack versus a CCd target, or a trait that steals health when ccing a target. It can absolutely work if Anet wants it to work. They obviously don't want warrior hammer to work, but hey maybe rangers can get a viable hammer spec.

[Infusion.7149]

Original bunny thumper actually had one knockdown skill based off adrenaline and a bunch of skills to chain off the knockdown. If it's brought to GW2 I could expect it to have one main knockdown skill and a bunch of conditional skills that have added effects on CC-ed targets (similar to Fierce Blow or Backbreaker on warrior hammer). Obviously in WvW it has to deal with stability more so than in PVP and in PVE it would need to deal with defiance bars. If there is a way to capitalize on broken defiance bars (other than the Predator's Onslaught trait)  it would actually be rather strong in fractals as one of the main reasons alac renegade is brought along is for the strong CC.

Imagine if you could do 600 defiance bar damage in <2 seconds with it and not have to worry about the hitbox or long cooldowns (i.e. Sanctuary). That's the kind of thing I mean since skills such as Counterattack kick are more reactive than proactive. People tend not to run smokescale in PVE so the 2s knockdown isn't seen as often as 2s daze from Gazelle as effectively it is the same 200 defiance damage even if the functionality is different.

As far as dealing with stability, aegis, and single hit blocking it could have multi-hit skills such as a swing that hits once per direction. It could even remove stacks of stability specifically to add value to it in WvW (i.e. trait for 2 stacks removed on CC , see Brutality on revenant).

In GW2 we don't have an energy mechanic on rangers , so unless the new spec has a resource mechanic similar to astral force, heat, or adrenaline then it would be mainly be kept in check by the conditional on the skills or cooldowns. I would fully expect it to be a strong spec for solo/story/low man play if it had self applied quickness (no quickness sharing) and strong CC combos. That's one of the highlights of people playing reaper with a minion or two right now actually. Self-applied quickness is the closest thing that you would have to Rampage as One unless it is a non-stacking attack speed bonus such as Dual Wielding (20%) , Malicious Sorcery (20%) , or Berserk mode (15%).

Edited June 30, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Greatsword is PBAOE since Maul is on such low cooldown, not sure why there's the fixation about AOE. There's a reason why greatsword and offhand axe are recommended for soulbeasts that intend to run with a squad in WVW.

Yea the current build for zerg rangers is GS and offhand axe, but those are brought because it’s just “as good as it can be at the moment”, not necessarily because it does tons of AoE.

 

The current zerg Ranger build is Immobeast which for its first priority is doing mass immobilize, with damage being a secondary role. On top of that, this build is so incredibly niche (typically only taken in organized / guild groups, and only one is taken for every 15-20 people). Most people who want Ranger to have access to AoE want it to be able to fulfill a dps role in zergs. Yea GS2 is AoE, but it’s just a small melee range in front of you. Axe5 is AoE, but it’s channeled and also required you to stand still in melee range. The only use for it at the moment is to cleave downed people. The only other AoE weapon would be LB, but

1) Projectile block

2) Reflects

3) LB5, again, requires you to stand still and channel

 

Compare these to other current dps roles (DH, Herald, Scourge, Weaver, Warrior, Engi, etc) and Ranger is severely lacking.

 

For melee focused classes (DH, Warrior, Engi), they have access to either spammable ranged AoE (grenades, sword of justice, scepter, etc), or mobile melee damage (Warrior Axe5, GS Burst, Engi Bomb, Guardian GS). Compared to DH as well, our traps are primarily focused on condi, while DH have extremely potent power focused traps.

 

Compared to ranged classes (Herald, Weaver, Scourge), as said above, we have a noticeable lack to spammable ranged AoE. Closest comparison to our LB would be Weaver Staff (Meteor Shower vs Barrage, 1200+ ranged, etc), but Weaver still has access to many powerful Staff 3 skills, many of which are simple ground targeted abilities on top of other utility (Fire Staff 4, Blink) that covers for the weakness of needing to channel a hard hitting spell.

 

So it’s not as easy to say “Ranger has access to AoE” because the competition and role people are wanting to fill in for are on a whole other level than what we’re able to achieve.

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Yea the current build for zerg rangers is GS and offhand axe, but those are brought because it’s just “as good as it can be at the moment”, not necessarily because it does tons of AoE.

 

The current zerg Ranger build is Immobeast which for its first priority is doing mass immobilize, with damage being a secondary role. On top of that, this build is so incredibly niche (typically only taken in organized / guild groups, and only one is taken for every 15-20 people). Most people who want Ranger to have access to AoE want it to be able to fulfill a dps role in zergs. Yea GS2 is AoE, but it’s just a small melee range in front of you. Axe5 is AoE, but it’s channeled and also required you to stand still in melee range. The only use for it at the moment is to cleave downed people. The only other AoE weapon would be LB, but

1) Projectile block

2) Reflects

3) LB5, again, requires you to stand still and channel

 

Compare these to other current dps roles (DH, Herald, Scourge, Weaver, Warrior, Engi, etc) and Ranger is severely lacking.

 

For melee focused classes (DH, Warrior, Engi), they have access to either spammable ranged AoE (grenades, sword of justice, scepter, etc), or mobile melee damage (Warrior Axe5, GS Burst, Engi Bomb, Guardian GS). Compared to DH as well, our traps are primarily focused on condi, while DH have extremely potent power focused traps.

 

Compared to ranged classes (Herald, Weaver, Scourge), as said above, we have a noticeable lack to spammable ranged AoE. Closest comparison to our LB would be Weaver Staff (Meteor Shower vs Barrage, 1200+ ranged, etc), but Weaver still has access to many powerful Staff 3 skills, many of which are simple ground targeted abilities on top of other utility (Fire Staff 4, Blink) that covers for the weakness of needing to channel a hard hitting spell.

 

So it’s not as easy to say “Ranger has access to AoE” because the competition and role people are wanting to fill in for are on a whole other level than what we’re able to achieve.

Superspeed makes the ranged argument moot really and weaver is extremely vulnerable in the current meta , unlike ranger you can't get quickness off utilities or traits either. The only build you listed there that doesn't have high cooldown on AOE is herald which has huge animations and a delay on hits from CoR , inspiring reinforcement , and phase smash ; power scourge has high cooldown on wells (30-40s) right now : if you only hit one pulse of well of suffering for example it is 0.9 coefficient and the entirety of well of corruption hits for 2.1 coefficient. Marks and scepter 3 devouring darkness all don't have particularly high power coefficients (1.16 on devouring darkness, the highest damage mark is Putrid Mark at 1.32 and it has a 20s cooldown). Axe 3 / unholy feast is PBAOE.

For the melee focused classes you specified: grenades are reflectable and have RNG problems against moving targets, bomb has a 1s delay , DH isn't particularly sturdy against boon corrupt although it's arguably not been tuned down for WvW, and arc divider on berserker requires running berserker which has far less utility than spellbreaker and requires building adrenaline which means it's more or less unusable on push.

If someone insists on running longbow ranger in WvW they can cancel cast Barrage anyway and it doesn't get reflected.

If ranger gets rifle or pistol for example, it is surely going to be another projectile weapon.

A truly relevant build would incorporate some sort of counter to aegis , stability, and superspeed (now with added quickness), seeing how one of the weaknesses of scrapper is heavy CC. That's why something akin to a hammer or mace is probably the best direction.

[enkeny.6937]

well, for me is no, because I don't like hammer. (I want shield 🙂 )

Bunny thumper in gw1 was a thing because there was no other two-handed Martial weapons. (I mean, 1 of the reasons)
Later, we got daggers and scythe and get some diversity.
I liked these better. (especially assassin)

btw: If we get hammer it can still be very different from greatsword. We can get a decent AoE melee weapon (not just cleave) 

[InsaneQR.7412]

I want a brawly melee spec thats for sure.

But i rather want melee double scepter or double mace for midrange AoE damage similar to Rev mace/axe playstyle.

 

On one hand this is bcause i dont like two handed weapons because of combinatorial reasons and on the other hand i think it fits better thematically with ranger.

 

I would not cry about hammer, especially not when the weapon is very well designed. But i would be hapier with double maces or double scepters.

Shield would also be an option tbh and it would give ranger more defenses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

On 6/26/2021 at 2:15 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

That is literally what a bruiser spec brings to the table.....

Look at other bruiser elite specs which got designed so far: daredevil, scrapper, spellbreaker

 

• Daredevil: provides AoE (staff), CC (literally every physical skill they get with the exception of the healing skill is CC related), decent damage (damage modifiers in trait line, good damage on staff, decent dps options)
• Scrapper: provides AoE (hammer, shredder gyro, blast gyro), CC (hammer, shredder gyro toolbelt, blast gyro, traits which add CC or reward CCing the enemy like system shocker), decent damage (hammer hits quite hard, shredder gyro is a good dps skill, some decent dps traits in the traitline)
• Spellbreaker: CC (dagger, traits, full counter, etc.), decent damage (dps traits, can be used as a decent dps spec), doesn't get as much new AoE capabilities, but many attacks from warrior are already hitting multiple targets anyway

 

Also I don't think that you can say that core engineers sustain got killed just for getting a bruiser elite spec in scrapper. Sustain is still pretty strong in core engineer in my opinion as an engineer main.

 

Soulbeast might be played as a bruiser, but in my opinion, it isn't designed as one. I see it as a dps spec primarily, like holosmith is for engineer. If you want to go for pure dps, holosmith is superior to scrapper and seeing that soulbeast can easily compete with holosmith when it comes to dps, I would consider dps to be it's primary role. Holosmith still is also played in bruiser builds, tho.

 

So just because soulbeast can be played as a bruiser, it shouldn't forbid ranger to receive an elite spec designed with bruiser being it's primary role.

Late reply:

 

I indeed asked for more AoE and CC but that got little to do with what you may have in mind, from my understanding the people here are asking for something that literally turns ranger into a warrior sort of thing while keeping the benefits of switching to a range when convenient, at the same time maintaining the great sustain options of the class. 

 

If my assumptions are correct then....the concept would be grossly OP and broken , most players here have decided to main a ranger because they enjoy the ranged gameplay and the last thing I'd assume they'd want is to see the class being balanced around melee combat after almost a decade spent playing range and building a whole gameplay around it.

 

It's not a matter of what people want, it is a matter of what can be done! The majority of people playing ranger do so for a specific reason and that's ranged gameplay , anything after that is a plus and never a necessity, the balance of each class should revolve around the original concept, that's what people paid and continue to play for.

 

Now is soulbeast a perfect brawler? No it's not! At best it's an adept skirmisher and that's what ranger supposed to be, while balance is not perfect.....for ranger it has always been quite decent and I say that as somebody who has been multiclass for years, invested time and money in other professions like elementalist and warrior which by comparison have been nerfed harder than ranger and I am not saying that ranger should be nerfed any further ( no way) I am saying that the class so far has received a fair treatment compared to some other professions.

 

Again what would happen if ranger gets a melee centred elite is that Anet would start "balance" the whole class around melee combat as it'd be the newest toy, everything else that makes ranger would end up in the gutter as a result and I don't want that......I am sure at 100% that players here don't want to see that too.

 

I started to play ranger to get away from all the PBAoE condi kitten farting that has been plaguing this game for years, I enjoy ranged combat because it makes it easier to deal with runaway/steath bullcrap gameplay, I enjoy ranger because I can force people to dance at my tune with a mix of ranged and melee combat ..not the other way around.

 

I won't give up any of that so that people can roleplay with a hammer in Queensdale! Give ranger more access to AoE and CC that's it, for more melee options...people can go and play warrior 

[anduriell.6280]

The points you bring are very valid @Arheundel.6451. I am in the Hammer train, and that is because having played with ranger for so long i would appreciate a change of rytmic which a melee bruiser can bring.  I am kind of bored of the same WS/BM pewpew build ranger gravitate towards. 

 

I agree with Kodama, Soulblast  doesn't feel as bruiser, it doesn't really matter was was the original intentions but what came out at the end. And soulbeast seems closer to Holo than to an scrapper. 

 

To all those who want an offhand sword, we already have Soulblast for that flavor, instead asking for another one we should focus into getting Dagger/Dagger to work properly with relevant skills for the specialization. 

 

Hammer and a CC bruiser would be nice to play, however in the current core state anything Anet brings with the specialization will be OP or utter trash. And i mean anything. 

 

The first thing Anet should do is to re-define the core class and balance it accordingly. Once core is properly done, additional roles with the specializations should not be that difficult to achieve. 

 

 

 

 

[LughLongArm.5460]

If you new leak is true, we are getting a combinations of some the best fan made specs ever created. Hammer ranger focused on Power+CC  AND, Beast Master ranger with 3 pets(not sure if all at once) - doing combos with pets for damage or something like that. 

[Lazze.9870]

8 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

most players here have decided to main a ranger because they enjoy the ranged gameplay

 

You keep making that assumption over and over again.

 

There is no ranged class in this game. IT CAME WITH A GS AND A SWORD AT LAUNCH. I sure as hell didn't pick ranger to pew pew at 1000+ distance all day.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Arheundel.6451 na i started playing ranger for the theme. I only touch ranged in WvW out of necessity. I play pretty much all specs just in melee because that where the actual action is happening. 

One of my favored bruisers is rev and i love the PbAoEs of the dwarve stance and i would love me some PbAoEs on ranger.

 

I think rangers range attack rolls are already covered apart from extensive AoEs. Current ranged weapons are in a dire need of improvement and need better mechanics to feel rewarding but another ranged weapon just for the AoE aspect would basically play like mortar kit, which i wouldnt consider fun to play tbh.

 

But i think the spec weapon can still be melee and provide ranger with ranged AoE damage. If they would give ranger concecrations for example they could make them ranged CC and damage utilities that would provide the needed AoE capabilities.

 

But to hammer it home:No , ppl dont always choose ranger because of the bow. Some do, some dont.