🗫 List your top WvW concerns over the years [comments/feedbacks/solutions] ⚖

[tichai.4351]

It's not about making the game easier it's about making the game play more balanced. Defend it it if you must but AoE spam is out of control, all mitigation is nullified within seconds and because of cooldowns is virtually ineffective. Siege both defensive and offensive needs to be fit for purpose or remove it completely.

 

Here's an idea, have two versions of WvW, one for melee classes and one for casters and see which one is the more enjoyable.

 

While you are at it, remove thieves and rangers and we are good to go 🙂

 

Another thing people conveniently forget is in the beginning everyone reached level 2 and jumped straight into WvW and it was a level playing field. For a new player where is the fun? No gear, no masteries and probably a completely wrong build, are these players not entitled to have 'fun' too? The catching up is too daunting for many and yet people refuse to see the problems and try to pretend the game mode is fine as it is despite complaining about dwindling numbers.

 

WvW needs to be fun for everyone not just the hardcore players and I am talking from the pov of a player who has been in WvW since day one. Continue to cater for the hardcore players and the numbers will continue to drop.

 

There is nothing else out there to compete with WvW and I would hate to see it in decline because people continue to stick their heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine.

 

You could be really radical and have a single build for WvW classes then we could see who the good players really are when everyone is equal or reset everything but keep the levels as they are.

 

Radical changes are needed to keep the game fresh, Anet broke new ground with the launch of GW2 they need to do something similar now and reinvent themselves.

Edited July 13, 2021 by tichai.4351
additions

[Custodio.6134]

The most important thing in WvW is consistency and balance. 
to go deeper into detail about that: 

with consistency and balance i mean, that every class and every specialization has a defined purpose in WvW (especially zerking). Not in context of having a specific role for a class, but rather having those specifics available for all specializations, that are worth the same. Yes, i know this is limited to some extent, but class-specific benefits should be more split up among classes, so it is worth to use every class/specialization, not just some of them (example: Druids are obsolete due to scrappers, heck even tempest lost a lot of value since the nerf. Also, in zerks, Rangers are not valuable, only some very niece specializations, that can still easily replaced by something better). Holosmith provides nothing to a zerk, scrapper is the only way to go for engineers. And yeah, i am aware that this is very difficult to realize, if not impossible, but this should at least be a goal. 

Also: don´t push PvE-Balance-changes into WvW unchanged. Buffs to certain skills in PvE can result in nerfs in WvW if not adapted properly. WvW functions fundamentally different than PvP and sPvP. In order to receive proper class-balance, WvW-balance must be COMPLETELY separated from PvE and sPvP. Yes, this makes it even harder to get into WvW as it already is, but it is a necessary evil in order to ever reach proper balance. 

Also: population balance. How long have we asked for alliances? Answer: too long. And now looking into more detail, even the system (as what we know about alliances so far) brings high risks. Due to the original Server-System, communities have been built. The players established a lot of infrastructure (TeamSpeak and Discord-Servers, Forums, Webpages etc.). Alliances actually bring the risk of destroying those communities due to the Alliance-Building around Guilds. There´s also the problem of people, that play in multiple guilds. People can get split among different alliances, despite playing in the same guild, if they are playing in multiple WvW-orientated guilds. Another huge factor that is one cause of population imbalance is transfers. Server Transfers (especially mass transfers) destroy a lot of balance in WvW in terms of population. 

About incentives: rewards (for example from reward-tracks, loot etc) are ridiculously low in WvW. Especially balance-updates often require completely new gear to craft (if you don´t have legendary equipment yet). Buff-Food and Utilities also drain gold from the players (although food is now less a factor due to ascended food). Even siege weapons cost at least some resources, a commander drops a lot of it while leading for a few hours. Even though communities often collect those from the chests, as (especially zerk-players) those are rarely used by the players (excluding commanders and roamers), siege is still a not small sinkhole of gold and resources. 

Initially (when GW2 was released) there were actually incentives in the game (remember? server-wide bonus on a variety of stats based on warscore). But the Megaservers removed those from play. So maybe, although this contradicts the megaserver-system, where everyone can play together regardless of the WvW-World, bring back those buffs. Those could be partially based on current VP and/or Warscore. 

Edge of the Mists. Like others said: it´s almost worthless nowadays. The only thing that now added value to it is the "new" Arena. Yes, those extra supplies if you win the eotm-match are nice, but we need more. Yes, it´s an overflow map, but then at least revamp the map in a way, that it allows mounts and gliding. This needs a redesign of the whole map ofc. Allow players to get pips here. EotM is still WvW after all. I wouldn´t even mind if you get reduced pips in eotm, but not even being able to earn pips there is kinda unsatisfying (especially on reset, when often all maps are queued). with pips, it would be worth to queue up for your desired border, and wait for the pop in eotm without losing too much rewards. 

Although i currently don´t have a specific thing in mind: more Special-Events in WvW. I mean: carefully constructed Events that have a meaning. Currently, we only get some WXP-, MF- and Reward-Track bonus. every. single. time. And no downstate active results mostly in the opposite it should. Activity in no-downstate-weeks usually drops. by a lot. 

Structured "Events" (mechanically) that could be completed by a certain amount of players, without needing to have a commander. I think of something comparable to meta-events on the PvE-Maps. For example: an attack event on your offensive border, that starts on spawn-tower and if successful, moves to the east/west-keep, up to the towers and finishes on the middle keep. (actually, thinking of it, Drizzlewood Coast was a good attempt that i can think could, at least partially, be adapted to WvW. Those two are in many factors similar after all). Ofc, there should be a great reward if you actually manage to complete it, and it should ofc not be easy to do. this could include factors like: 
holding all structures of the event, and lock progress if one is lost until re-captured (promotes offense/defense-organization)
perhaps even requiring upgrading structures (promotes defense and scouting)
automating these events (maybe based on factors i´m not currently overthinking too much) to draw players into the events, either without needing a commander, or giving an incentive for a commander to tag up and organizing offense/defense (this goes for both, attacking and defending parties)
 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Custodio.6134

[Custodio.6134]

2 hours ago, tichai.4351 said:

Another thing people conveniently forget is in the beginning everyone reached level 2 and jumped straight into WvW and it was a level playing field. For a new player where is the fun? No gear, no masteries and probably a completely wrong build, are these players not entitled to have 'fun' too?

I think you forget, that WvW (just like raids, or even fractals to some extent) is ENDGAME content. It is not designed as a way of leveling, it has just been used as such in the past, as it was extremely effective, because of the high event-density that awarded exp quickly back then when gw2 was released. 

Also, don´t forget that, by design and actually definition, WvW is a competetive mode. Reminder: the definition of "competetive" is the following: 
"A form of Player versus Player, taking place under official rules and ambition. It´s a fair competition in ranked matches". 
so let´s look at those points, and if they apply to wvw: 

 

"A form of Player versus Player" --> check

"taking place under official rules and ambition" --> check (rules defined by scoring system and game mechanics)

"fair competition in ranked matches" --> check (even if you can discuss fairness in the current state), Matchup-Tiers are a type of ranking, heck, there is even a leaderboard for all the servers. 

So why should WvW be even available to low-level players? In the current state it´s endgame content after all. 
There is only one condition where i would aggree on allowing everyone regardless of level to join WvW: 
Standardized Gear and Level-Upscaling (just like sPvP does). This would ensure fair competition regardless of level and gear of players. Population is still another factor, but that´s another story to tell. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Custodio.6134

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

+1 on separating WvW and PvP competitive balance more. Hell, the Hard CC's doing no damage BS and 300s CD BS should have stayed in the PvP side of the house and never touched WvW.

[tichai.4351]

30 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

So why should WvW be even available to low-level players? In the current state it´s endgame content after all. 

You miss the point completely, in the beginning everyone was equal, nothing to do with level whatsoever. Hardcore players have a huge advantage over new players and it puts new players off the game mode all together.

 

Another point is this thread is about posting ideas, whether people like them or not is irrelevant as this is not a discussion thread.

Edited July 13, 2021 by tichai.4351
update

[Custodio.6134]

23 minutes ago, tichai.4351 said:

Another point is this thread is about posting ideas, whether people like them or not is irrelevant as this is not a discussion thread.

then be a good example and don´t discuss my comments and suggestions

[XenesisII.1540]

6 hours ago, tichai.4351 said:

It's not about making the game easier it's about making the game play more balanced. Defend it it if you must but AoE spam is out of control, all mitigation is nullified within seconds and because of cooldowns is virtually ineffective. Siege both defensive and offensive needs to be fit for purpose or remove it completely.

 

Here's an idea, have two versions of WvW, one for melee classes and one for casters and see which one is the more enjoyable.

 

While you are at it, remove thieves and rangers and we are good to go 🙂

 

Another thing people conveniently forget is in the beginning everyone reached level 2 and jumped straight into WvW and it was a level playing field. For a new player where is the fun? No gear, no masteries and probably a completely wrong build, are these players not entitled to have 'fun' too? The catching up is too daunting for many and yet people refuse to see the problems and try to pretend the game mode is fine as it is despite complaining about dwindling numbers.

 

WvW needs to be fun for everyone not just the hardcore players and I am talking from the pov of a player who has been in WvW since day one. Continue to cater for the hardcore players and the numbers will continue to drop.

 

There is nothing else out there to compete with WvW and I would hate to see it in decline because people continue to stick their heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine.

 

You could be really radical and have a single build for WvW classes then we could see who the good players really are when everyone is equal or reset everything but keep the levels as they are.

 

Radical changes are needed to keep the game fresh, Anet broke new ground with the launch of GW2 they need to do something similar now and reinvent themselves.

 

This just sounds like you may have a better time in spvp than wvw tbh.

 

It wasn't a level playing field even in the beginning, when you were missing skills/traits and even gear comparable to a higher/max level player. All that happened was you were boosted to 80 with simulated stats to whatever you were wearing. But a even a fresh level 80 had all their skills/traits available, and exotics at 80 gave better stats than a level 2 in white/blue/greens, all this even before masteries were even introduced too.

 

I'm all for making things a little more balanced and making it a little easier for newbies come into wvw, I've been on the side of reducing one shots, balancing stealth, reducing wxp break levels for more pips earlier on, increasing access to gear and rewards, reduce boon balling effectiveness. The only aoe I've called for a nerfed on is the cooldown on CoR, just because 2s(4s now lol) cooldown on a skill that hits as hard as meteor which was on a 24s+ cooldown was incredibly terrible balance wise.

 

But nerfing aoes won't help you when single target skills hit harder than aoes, and instead of dodging 5-10 aoe rings you'll have to dodge 20-30 focus firing you, in the end you'll need to learn to get out of the area anyways. Btw if you take out aoes, you'll have to obviously lose arrow carts, because it's all aoe, so good luck trying to hit 20 people below your wall when they'll still pull you and focus fire you dead.

 

Also no one should be immune on walls for one sided fights, if you don't know how to function on a wall, like using stealth stability or be on your mount, then stay off the wall. The game shouldn't be constantly nerfed so that you can be comfortable in a pvp area, you should adapt and know when to be or not to be in that area.

 

The one advantage veterans will have is their experience in playing the mode, a newbie will always be behind, only thing they can do is play, learn, and gain the knowledge to function properly in the game mode.

[Jaykay.9641]

I'm very late to this thread, but I wanted to dump some thoughts on WvW from my perspective.

 

1. Rewards

It's been discussed many times, but I tend to play PvP more than WvW because the reward structure in PvP accommodates my time commitments better.

 

This example is taken from another thread, but I like it. It's unfortunate that if I spend 10 hours in WvW over 5 week will get me less rewards than if all 10 hours were spent in 1 week. in PvP, I can play when time allows and still work toward the last chest rewards over 2 months. In WvW, it's play as much as you can in 1 week and repeat. The other thing I don't like is that I lose the Commitment Pip if I decide to take a week vacation which then increases time for the following week I need to get to max chest.

 

Solution: My ideal solution would be to go toward a WvW season like they do in PvP. So each 2 month season you can play when you can and still get toward the max repeatable chests. Obviously, chest rewards/pips/etc acquisition would have to be adjusted. Then after the 2 month season, Anet can change Alliance/Server populations and start a new season a couple weeks later. In between the seasons, they have special WvW events and call them like "Mist Anomalies" where we can have the no downstate event, extra reward boosts, and experiment with potential WvW changes to see if they would work long term (ideas could be: No target cap anomaly - where all healing and damage abilities have no target caps, Increased siege damage anomaly, increased base movement speed anomaly, etc.) Anet can be creative here between seasons and see what the community enjoys. Then every 2 months, we have a new anomaly between seasons, we have a new anomaly. Anomalies that make the game mode better could be put into the game permanently.

 

Second part to my solution would be to remove the last veteran pip for reaching rank 10000 and move it to a new single pip that you receive for Staying in T6 participation. Why would this help? It gives new players more changes to get much needed pips, it gives the same amount of pips for all veterans, it may help alleviate semi-AFK players hanging on to T3 for the pips, and this pip mark can be used for future rewards (more on that later).

 

2. Middle of Maps

This is from a mainly roamer perspective, but I'd appreciate some work done on the Ruins areas of the maps. It's such a passive thing to accomplish by standing in ruins to gain Bloodlust. While the Ruins benefits and concept is great, is there anyway we can make them move desirable and consistent to fight over? This would have to be a fine balance of roamers and not so strong that zergs will come in and compete for these areas.

 

Solution: I think just fleshing out the areas for more skirmishes would be fine. Maybe add a couple guards on the points to give a sense of your attacking something, maybe add a small amount of supply to each ruin that replenishes very slowly so siege can be deployed/built in the ruins area without massive running around. Really, I'm not sure the best approach but I'd love if the center of maps were a little more fun and interactive.

 

3. Sandbox Randomness

I really enjoy the random events in Open World that pop up around me when traversing a map. I think WvW could use a little more of that. Escorting Dolyaks and Veteran Creatures are nice little events, but there are more possibilities for sure.

 

Solution: Small random events off the well traversed paths could lead to make dueling, skirmishes, and rewards for adventurous players. Events like "Missing Dolyak" could be fun. A "stray" supply Dolyak could wander off into the wilderness and get slain by wolves. Players would have to kill the wolves and perform a lengthy channel to receive the loot( a long channel is key as it gives counter play to someone coming in to take it as damage stops the channel and invulnerable abilities don't last long enough.

 

The other event I would love would be a map wide marked "bounty" something that randomly pops up and is marked for kill (the veteran creature sort of fills this niche, but it isn't very exciting to fight over).  Could be a veteran or champion but rewards are given out for the kill.

 

On 7/9/2021 at 12:15 AM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

What's everyone's favorite idea for cool match-up rewards?

 

I like the idea of giving out a small XP, Magic Find, etc. bonus to the following skirmish if you won and a little less for 2nd place. Anything like that may help player attention if you give rewards for winning.

 

From my point of view, I think also rewarding skirmish wins with Grandmaster Mark Shards and/or Memories of Battle could be great. Create a vendor for only GM Shards (not box of Grandmaster Marks because then you can craft them outside of WvW), Legendary Spikes, Emblems, etc. that can give special armor/weapon skins, siege skins, WvW specific outfits, etc. This will give incentive for players to win, veterans have a place to dump shards, and gives new players access to more ascended crafting materials. Also, a slight increase in Memories of Battle may help alleviate the higher price WvW'ers have to pay vs PvP'ers. Players can only get rewards for Skirmishes if they achieve a certain number of a newly created T6 pip (see above) and their Alliance/Server wins.

 

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. I just saw this thread and need to purge my brain of random thoughts.

[Infusion.7149]

Jaykay, not sure why you want another repeat of the lagfest laser. I think even veteran creature should be removed to be honest as it does nothing for the matchup. At least ogre/skritt/hylek do some reinforcement and attacking.

[tichai.4351]

On 7/13/2021 at 6:07 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

This just sounds like you may have a better time in spvp than wvw tbh.

 

It wasn't a level playing field even in the beginning, when you were missing skills/traits and even gear comparable to a higher/max level player. All that happened was you were boosted to 80 with simulated stats to whatever you were wearing. But a even a fresh level 80 had all their skills/traits available, and exotics at 80 gave better stats than a level 2 in white/blue/greens, all this even before masteries were even introduced too.

 

I'm all for making things a little more balanced and making it a little easier for newbies come into wvw, I've been on the side of reducing one shots, balancing stealth, reducing wxp break levels for more pips earlier on, increasing access to gear and rewards, reduce boon balling effectiveness. The only aoe I've called for a nerfed on is the cooldown on CoR, just because 2s(4s now lol) cooldown on a skill that hits as hard as meteor which was on a 24s+ cooldown was incredibly terrible balance wise.

 

But nerfing aoes won't help you when single target skills hit harder than aoes, and instead of dodging 5-10 aoe rings you'll have to dodge 20-30 focus firing you, in the end you'll need to learn to get out of the area anyways. Btw if you take out aoes, you'll have to obviously lose arrow carts, because it's all aoe, so good luck trying to hit 20 people below your wall when they'll still pull you and focus fire you dead.

 

Also no one should be immune on walls for one sided fights, if you don't know how to function on a wall, like using stealth stability or be on your mount, then stay off the wall. The game shouldn't be constantly nerfed so that you can be comfortable in a pvp area, you should adapt and know when to be or not to be in that area.

 

The one advantage veterans will have is their experience in playing the mode, a newbie will always be behind, only thing they can do is play, learn, and gain the knowledge to function properly in the game mode.

...And again, you miss the point completely. This is a thread about thoughts and ideas from the player base, not a discussion thread for you to disapprove of others thoughts and ideas, Not everyone in this or any other game function on the same level and as such it needs to do more to allow more people to play and more importantly enjoy WvW.

 

Just because you choose to make it into a discussion does not make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's.

 

At the end of the day nothing much will change anyway and many of the suggestions have been raised over and over again since year 1.

[XenesisII.1540]

I didn't miss the point, this is a thread to list concerns and suggestions with wvw, now your suggestions have become a concern of mine, so I will list my concerns and suggestions with them as we are all free to do.

 

I'm sorry but I don't want to see this mode dumbed down even more, they've already crossed that line when they decided boon spamming was more important, which has even led to aoes to be less effective, despite what you say. There's even aoes in pve that do way more damage.

 

Again, the only advantage veteran players have is their knowledge and experience in the game mode. Everything is not hard to catch up on, not even masteries are required for combat.

 

Now if you think I don't understand your concerns, then maybe you can lay out some examples of scenarios where you see this is happening, if you want to discuss it more that is, otherwise peace out. 

[frickenreesh.7068]

 

Rewards- Give me a way to get purple in every hole in WVW, including weapons, even if not flashy like armor, make it a long term goal that I can grind without time gate if I want. Some weeks I have an hour of play time per day, others I have 8-10, give me enough that I can't grind it out all at once but if I choose to, I can do it over a few times every so often.

 

Leaderboards-  Gw2mists leaderboards have made it fun to watch WvW from a different view; bring that to the game. With alliances coming, give individuals goals and rewards based on their effort. Top kills for the match, for the month, or top PPT for the week or month, and give those groups and individuals groups rewards for it. Top PPT'er and PPK'er for the month. Legendary Item, and or title for a month. Top guild gets a gold prize, top player in guild get etc. and do it by size guild/group of 400-500, 300-400, 200-300,100-200,50-100, and under 50. make the reward just as good for the small guild/group as the large one. Also could have a best all around guild, alliance, person, average out all areas for top for the match, week, etc.

This  to me would give an idea of "winning" no matter what tier you are in.

 

Match-making- one up one down is too volatile for only 4 tiers, it makes it too easy for a single group to not play for the week and control it for easy empty keep farms the next week, I would like to see the old Gold, Silver Bronze system come back but with room for population change to remove tiers as needed. glicko is based on individuals with their stats included for the match, so if they move to another alliance, the glicko will adjust, if they don't play for that whole match then the glicko adjusts until they return. new players have a negative glicko and PPT and PPK grinders bring it up. 

 

Off Hour Coverage- Right now off hour PPT is what gets top tier, it's not skill, 2 out of the 3 groups in T1 NA is just because of that. How can we fix this? Idk, Over the years players have grouped up more and more by when they play to dominate empty keeps, I think only the players can choose to divide themselves for actual competition; Maybe there's a way? Maybe less points for capturing if it was undefended from the other team or was outnumbered during that skirmish?ideas?

 

I think 500 people is too big for an alliance or a guild IMO, because all people in that timezone end up overwhelming it and pulls away from good competition at the sake of easy play. I honestly think an alliance should not be able to Queue all 4 maps, maybe 225 ish max per alliance and "WvW" guilds should be no  more than 50. we have 5 guild slots now, maybe add 2 more, one for WvW guild and another for Alliance. The issue I see with this is that large guilds would just make 5 guilds and be in the same alliance, so it's not a perfect thought I am having. Yes groups would be split, but that isn't bad IMO, only makes the competition fun in the long run. Sometimes guilds split into smaller groups to test themselves and the stake of friendly competition. Most big pug tags have alts now anyway. slip your blob at the sake of actually having to try.

 

Yes your Community will not be the same with alliances, but it has not been the same since release, build new relationships and enjoy your time in the mode. Don’t fear the change, WvW has been ignored for far too long. Make the best of it and have fun defending Middle Fort.

Edited July 14, 2021 by frickenreesh.7068

[Salvatore.3749]

1. WvW would benefit from WvW only builds and WvW only equipment.

 

2. WvW gold rewards need improvement since they are awful compared to PvP.

 

3. Separate maps and separate team player caps.

 

4. The alternative to point 1, WvW only equipment or infusions, crafted through WvW merchants or skills, that provide significant bonuses in WvW. 

 

Explanation for Point 1

As a Guild Wars 1 player and someone who loves PvP, the one thing that Guild Wars 1 PvP outperformed Guild Wars 2 PvP in was the is standardization across all PvP with PvP only characters and builds. It allowed for balanced gameplay across all classes and prevented hacking and bug exploitation.  

 

I returned to Guild Wars 2 a month ago after a brief hiatus. PvP only builds are now a thing. In PvP my core thief and DE builds can throw down with any other profession. However, in WvW sometimes I get spiked from 17K health in seconds from a ranger or chronomancer. They could be a hacker, or could be they have a solid build. However, it's clear there isn't a balance amongst the professions. This same event never happens in PvP because of the standardization 

 

I understand point 1 is likely extremely unpopular, but I think it could be a solution to the imbalance that we experience in WvW with the caveat that accessories are allowed, which PvP does not provide. So having the 6 slot accessories with whatever stats could add different gameplay mechanics. I know, WvW was supposed to be more of a raw, show off your equipment and skills, but it seems like the imbalance in the system makes it incredibly difficult. Especially since retaliation is gone, it's harder for certain classes to fight other classes without instantly dying. To be honest, I don't even like this idea myself, but it would be a viable option to provide balance and fair gameplay since the balance is so skewed. I think my point 4 would make more people happy, but it may not pan out in the long run. 

 

Explanation for Point 2

I'll use raw facts. Playing PvP and getting to maximum reward chest in about 1 month for a season netted me about 120-130 gold coins. In WvW, I don't even get a fraction of that gold. I don't want PvP's gold reward system revamped, but WvW could benefit from it. 

 

 

Explanation for Point 3

This may be way out there and incredibly difficult for the developers and servers. Guild Wars 1 had an "individual instant experience" for players. Unlike Guild Wars 2, everyone shares separate map instances with one another and goes to different servers, if one is empty, we can consolidate. In PvE, this is more prevalent and forces more players together. In GW1, you would have a whole map to yourself with a party of heroes/henchman. The same for PvP, you and the other players would have an entire map to yourself without other player interference. I believe WvW could benefit from this when maps are overloaded. 

 

In WvW, I could see this mechanic working where only the maps could hold 300 players on each team and then where there is an overabundance on one map instance, a new one could be created for other players to go to. 

 

Yes, this would change some mechanics of the WvW system itself, but monsters, keeps, towers, walls, etc. could be scaled to the players that join that map. Having multiple instances of different maps would allow for better framerates and more dynamic gameplay where squads would have to work with one another. Currently, I don't see more than maybe 300-400 players on one map, but when I do, it's normally one team that has 300+ players when there are maybe 50 players on the second team and 30 on the third team. Often times, overflow happens, and one team has significantly more players than the other teams and it's an endless zerg running through all the keeps and camps. I don't see that as game play that really rewards teamwork more as it is just mindlessly pushing through towers and camps. 

 

Explanation for Point 4

If using WvW only equipment would anger too many players, than providing WvW equipment, accessories, and infusions that provide significant damage bonuses while in WvW would be more rewarding. This could be something where the accessories or weapons provide "+5% damage against scholar classes in WvW" or "+10% armor against ranged attacks". Obviously, there can be tradeoffs and balancing such "+15% damage against heavy classes with -5% armor against adventurer and scholar classes in WvW".  Even "+500 healing power in WvW" would be an awesome WvW legendary/ascended pendant/accessory.  This could pave the way to preventing the damage done by hackers or by other classes that seem to really spike other classes within seconds. Obviously, this would make use of scribe, tailoring, weaponsmith, and possibly trading in badges of honor to the WvW merchants.  There is a downside, the players with gold and more experience in WvW would likely benefit more from this mechanic and newer players would likely shy away so it is not the best mechanic for a casual PvP player coming from another MMO who wants to just jump right in. 

 

Note to Everyone who made it this far:

I am not 100% in love with the ideas I presented. At this point, WvW feels so neglected that it makes sense to change it up a little bit to test the waters. 

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You don't want the amulet system to come to WvW. The balance team gets lazy with the amulet system and removes amulets as a means to 'balance' PvP. WvW is meant to use the same gear as PvE for a reason.

 

Should there be MORE WvW infusions? Sure.

 

Should there be more monetary rewards? Sure.

 

The big balance problem in WvW is that fights range from 1v1 to 60v60 and it is the 60v60 that breaks all means of balance.

[Salvatore.3749]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You don't want the amulet system to come to WvW. The balance team gets lazy with the amulet system and removes amulets as a means to 'balance' PvP. WvW is meant to use the same gear as PvE for a reason.

 

Should there be MORE WvW infusions? Sure.

 

Should there be more monetary rewards? Sure.

 

The big balance problem in WvW is that fights range from 1v1 to 60v60 and it is the 60v60 that breaks all means of balance.

 

That is a concern, but the alternative is probably more rewarding to those who grind and play for fun. I think my point 4 would definitely provide balance to the 60 v 60 fights when someone who is set to kill scholars with something like WvW magebane gear (+10% dmg against scholars or +10% condi dmg against scholars, and +10% armor against magic attacks) would be able to focus on the backline and take them out. Obviously, a tradeoff would be that other players could have different setups and target your profession specifically. This may make zergs a little more difficult, but roaming could be more fun. 

[Handtuch.6503]

rewards: i play wvw for fun so rewards are not that important. you should get something, but i dont need to get rich by doing wvw. Dont let wvw end up like spvp = high rewards = a lot of bots.

[Jski.6180]

Bad balancing and bluntly over buffing the same classes over and over at the same time under buffing to nerfing most of the other classes. At some point Guardian need to lose there ability to be the majority of what the player base needs in wvw.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

1. WvW would benefit from WvW only builds and WvW only equipment.

 

2. WvW gold rewards need improvement since they are awful compared to PvP.

 

3. Separate maps and separate team player caps.

 

4. The alternative to point 1, WvW only equipment or infusions, crafted through WvW merchants or skills, that provide significant bonuses in WvW. 

 

Explanation for Point 1

As a Guild Wars 1 player and someone who loves PvP, the one thing that Guild Wars 1 PvP outperformed Guild Wars 2 PvP in was the is standardization across all PvP with PvP only characters and builds. It allowed for balanced gameplay across all classes and prevented hacking and bug exploitation.  

 

I returned to Guild Wars 2 a month ago after a brief hiatus. PvP only builds are now a thing. In PvP my core thief and DE builds can throw down with any other profession. However, in WvW sometimes I get spiked from 17K health in seconds from a ranger or chronomancer. They could be a hacker, or could be they have a solid build. However, it's clear there isn't a balance amongst the professions. This same event never happens in PvP because of the standardization 

 

I understand point 1 is likely extremely unpopular, but I think it could be a solution to the imbalance that we experience in WvW with the caveat that accessories are allowed, which PvP does not provide. So having the 6 slot accessories with whatever stats could add different gameplay mechanics. I know, WvW was supposed to be more of a raw, show off your equipment and skills, but it seems like the imbalance in the system makes it incredibly difficult. Especially since retaliation is gone, it's harder for certain classes to fight other classes without instantly dying. To be honest, I don't even like this idea myself, but it would be a viable option to provide balance and fair gameplay since the balance is so skewed. I think my point 4 would make more people happy, but it may not pan out in the long run. 

 

Explanation for Point 2

I'll use raw facts. Playing PvP and getting to maximum reward chest in about 1 month for a season netted me about 120-130 gold coins. In WvW, I don't even get a fraction of that gold. I don't want PvP's gold reward system revamped, but WvW could benefit from it. 

 

 

Explanation for Point 3

This may be way out there and incredibly difficult for the developers and servers. Guild Wars 1 had an "individual instant experience" for players. Unlike Guild Wars 2, everyone shares separate map instances with one another and goes to different servers, if one is empty, we can consolidate. In PvE, this is more prevalent and forces more players together. In GW1, you would have a whole map to yourself with a party of heroes/henchman. The same for PvP, you and the other players would have an entire map to yourself without other player interference. I believe WvW could benefit from this when maps are overloaded. 

 

In WvW, I could see this mechanic working where only the maps could hold 300 players on each team and then where there is an overabundance on one map instance, a new one could be created for other players to go to. 

 

Yes, this would change some mechanics of the WvW system itself, but monsters, keeps, towers, walls, etc. could be scaled to the players that join that map. Having multiple instances of different maps would allow for better framerates and more dynamic gameplay where squads would have to work with one another. Currently, I don't see more than maybe 300-400 players on one map, but when I do, it's normally one team that has 300+ players when there are maybe 50 players on the second team and 30 on the third team. Often times, overflow happens, and one team has significantly more players than the other teams and it's an endless zerg running through all the keeps and camps. I don't see that as game play that really rewards teamwork more as it is just mindlessly pushing through towers and camps. 

 

Explanation for Point 4

If using WvW only equipment would anger too many players, than providing WvW equipment, accessories, and infusions that provide significant damage bonuses while in WvW would be more rewarding. This could be something where the accessories or weapons provide "+5% damage against scholar classes in WvW" or "+10% armor against ranged attacks". Obviously, there can be tradeoffs and balancing such "+15% damage against heavy classes with -5% armor against adventurer and scholar classes in WvW".  Even "+500 healing power in WvW" would be an awesome WvW legendary/ascended pendant/accessory.  This could pave the way to preventing the damage done by hackers or by other classes that seem to really spike other classes within seconds. Obviously, this would make use of scribe, tailoring, weaponsmith, and possibly trading in badges of honor to the WvW merchants.  There is a downside, the players with gold and more experience in WvW would likely benefit more from this mechanic and newer players would likely shy away so it is not the best mechanic for a casual PvP player coming from another MMO who wants to just jump right in. 

 

Note to Everyone who made it this far:

I am not 100% in love with the ideas I presented. At this point, WvW feels so neglected that it makes sense to change it up a little bit to test the waters. 

 

 

 

Hm your ideas are little conflicting.

 

On point 3, on each map, each side can hold about 60-70 players, they've never confirmed it, but that's the estimation the players have made. So from that we get 240-280 players, which really only ever happens on reset night for about 2-3 hours. Now on the first part of the point you're basically describing instances, and for pvp it would be instanced battlegrounds, which wvw wasn't designed to be, especially when it uses a point per tick system over the duration of a week, that checks all owned structures in score calculations.

 

If you were to spawn more instances you would unbalance the scoring by giving the larger sides more opportunity to capture and own, therefore score more points. Even if you were to spawn more maps, which maps would you spawn? Because the other problem is wvw has "home" maps and then ebg/eotm type maps, spawning additional home maps would give the home side some extra points, as the north side of the maps have an extra tower.

 

If wvw didn't operate on a points system, then sure spawn more maps, but unfortunately they cannot, they have to leave it so every side as equal opportunity in points, this is also why all three home maps have to be the same type, and why we can't just plug in another ebg/eotm in their place. The population is already widely unbalanced, and the only thing keeping it all in check, as badly of a job it is, is the cap on maximum players, maps, and objectives to score with. They could spawn extra maps with no scoring, but then that'll just be eotm, with pips I suppose....

 

On point 1 and 4 I personally don't care too much about stats and whatever, I think the problem is more to do with certain traits or skills synergizing too much, and some skills maybe having too higher of a damage modifier which is basically the very last system check on damage. Going through all the skills last year toned down a lot of the problems as an example, while gear wasn't touched.

 

Also a lot of people seem to hate the amulet system, so bringing anything close to that probably wouldn't go over well, since wvw players spent a lot of time/gold/resources building multiple sets of gear. It also allowed for a little more customization/option for groups on what to run and build a comp around..... even though that has basically been ruined with ascended foods and boon balling, everyone just runs near the same things now....

 

I'm honestly surprised they haven't explored set bonuses on gear yet, even putting them on infusions like they did with the damage to guards, which is something they could use to further separate gear in all 3 modes. But then you have to think, they built the game to not have gear inflation, so you could go away for a year, come back and your gear would still be relevant. It's probably the biggest reason why I would think they wouldn't start bonusing up gear, as this would definitely put a large gap between vets and newbies gear wise. Overall your idea to change this section, doesn't really seem to be standardizing it much, just shifting where you're getting your stats from.

[Woop S.7851]

👍 Great discussions above from passionate WvW players! As this game mode is quite complex with intricate variables interacting with each other, while we're waiting on the August communication update to Alliances, let's zoom-in a bit using scenario analysis to see if it can be unpacked further:

 

Goals:
- Apply the Fishbone model + Nash Equilibrium using Edge of the Mists (EOTM) for experimentation on paper
- Theoretical hypothesis + variable analysis while limiting wasted resources/code
- Compare the below 2 theoretical scenarios & answer the 3 questions below

- Be as constructive/concise/creative as possible

- Point form welcomed, easier for devs to scan 😁

 

EOTM Scenario A:

• Season: 8-weeks
• MatchTimer: 4-hours per match
• Matches Per Day: 6
• Overflow instanced maps: yes
• Max red players per map (instanced match): 50
• Max blue players per map (instanced match): 50
• Max green players per map (instanced match): 50
• Rewards/Pips: same as Eternal Battlegrounds
• Objectives 1: Capture/control/hold areas/towers/keeps before timer runs out
• Objectives 2: Killcount (adds to score)
• Tier-1 Wall: yes
• Tier-2 Wall upgrade: no
• Tier-3 fortified Wall upgrade: no
• Player gear: PvE (current)
• PvP Gear standardization: No
• Mounts: no
• Gliding: no
• Downed State: Yes (players can revive players during combat)

 

EOTM Scenario B (nudging variables/numbers):

• Season: 8-weeks
• -> MatchTimer: 2-hours per match
• -> Matches Per Day: 12
• Overflow instanced maps: yes
• -> Max red players per map/instanced match: 100
• -> Max blue players per map/instanced match: 100
• -> Max green players per map/instanced match: 100
• Rewards/Pips: same as Eternal Battlegrounds
• Objective 1: Capture control points/towers/keeps before timer runs out
• -> Objective 2: Killcount (does not add to match score)
• Tier-1 Wall: yes
• Tier-2 Wall: no
• Tier-3 fortified Wall: no
• Player gear: PvE (current)
• PvP Gear standardization: No
• Mounts: no
• Gliding: no
• -> Downed State: no (players instantly killed in combat)

👉 Questions/comments:

1. Do any of the above scenarios encourage rewards & participation/resolves build/population balance issues/night caps? (yes/no) please specify..

2. Do any of the above allow new & veteran players to cooperate in alliances? (yes/no) please explain..

3. Is there another scenario that would work better than above? (be as creative as possible) 😁

Edited July 15, 2021 by Woop S.7851

[XenesisII.1540]

55 minutes ago, Woop S.7851 said:

👍 Great discussions above from passionate WvW players! As this game mode is quite complex with intricate variables interacting with each other, while we're waiting on the August communication update to Alliances, let's zoom-in a bit using scenario analysis to see if it can be unpacked further:

 

Goals:
- Apply the Fishbone model + Nash Equilibrium using Edge of the Mists (EOTM) for experimentation on paper
- Theoretical hypothesis + variable analysis while limiting wasted resources/code
- Compare the below 2 theoretical scenarios & answer the 3 questions below

- Be as constructive/concise/creative as possible

- Point form welcomed, easier for devs to scan 😁

 

EOTM Scenario A:

• Season: 8-weeks
• MatchTimer: 4-hours per match
• Matches Per Day: 6
• Overflow instanced maps: yes
• Max red players per map (instanced match): 50
• Max blue players per map (instanced match): 50
• Max green players per map (instanced match): 50
• Rewards/Pips: same as Eternal Battlegrounds
• Objectives 1: Capture/control/hold areas/towers/keeps before timer runs out
• Objectives 2: Killcount (adds to score)
• Tier-1 Wall: yes
• Tier-2 Wall upgrade: no
• Tier-3 fortified Wall upgrade: no
• Player gear: PvE (current)
• PvP Gear standardization: No
• Mounts: no
• Gliding: no
• Downed State: Yes (players can revive players during combat)

 

EOTM Scenario B (nudging variables/numbers):

• Season: 8-weeks
• -> MatchTimer: 2-hours per match
• -> Matches Per Day: 12
• Overflow instanced maps: yes
• -> Max red players per map/instanced match: 100
• -> Max blue players per map/instanced match: 100
• -> Max green players per map/instanced match: 100
• Rewards/Pips: same as Eternal Battlegrounds
• Objective 1: Capture control points/towers/keeps before timer runs out
• -> Objective 2: Killcount (does not add to match score)
• Tier-1 Wall: yes
• Tier-2 Wall: no
• Tier-3 fortified Wall: no
• Player gear: PvE (current)
• PvP Gear standardization: No
• Mounts: no
• Gliding: no
• -> Downed State: no (players instantly killed in combat)

👉 Questions/comments:

1. Do any of the above scenarios encourage rewards & participation/resolves build/population balance issues/night caps? (yes/no) please specify..

2. Do any of the above allow new & veteran players to cooperate in alliances? (yes/no) please explain..

3. Is there another scenario that would work better than above? (be as creative as possible) 😁

 

Seasons with points wouldn't work with these models, as I mentioned in my above post, having virtually unlimited maps would create scenarios where you could have one huge side spawning new maps and having access to more objectives thus scoring more points. Eotm does not operate on a queue, it just spawns more maps immediately as needed. If you take out the points system, you can then take off the limitations of more maps. Now if points are not connected between eotm maps and treated as separate "instanced battlegrounds", then sure might work, but eotm had a lot more problems with k-trains and stacking.

 

To have a proper competitive points system it's required to have even teams, since we cannot produce this at every moment, there needs to at least be a maximum allowed amount of player to participate, or a maximum amount of points allowed to be scored in a time period. Otherwise you get run away scores with unbalanced population, unlimited maps, and more objectives for the larger populations to capture and score on. Points per kill is also a variable that could get out of hand, but since we have players who are afraid/ashamed to die that seems to limit it.

 

1a. Encourage rewards and participation? with the potential to turn them into old eotm k-trains, yes.

 

1b. Resolves build? build in what regard? gear? traits? world building? it's still a wvw setting, you going to do the same things, don't see a need to change, so no?

 

1c. Population balance issues? Yes, you may just encourage more stacking with open ended map spawning.

 

1d. Night caps? This was already resolved with skirmish mode, which I think used eotm 4 hour duration as an example in the first place.

 

2. Yes to both? as scoring is needed in either, so the more people, the more coverage, the better?

 

3. A system not involving points scoring.

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 7/8/2021 at 11:15 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

What's everyone's favorite idea for cool match-up rewards?

Something cosmetic, that is acct bound that can't be sold.

Half the problem in wvw right now is everyone is just playing for loot/ranks.  So they only want to do whatever gets them the most money fastest.  Which is why the meta is "fight 20 guys with a map que and transfer to another server if another map que plays when we do".

[medivh.4725]

Very divided by wvw servers. I normally can find regular players but due to server matching and being in different wvw server, we can't do wvw together. This has constantly been problem for me. I am about to looking for a transfer. 

[XenesisII.1540]

On 7/15/2021 at 8:24 PM, Ubi.4136 said:

Something cosmetic, that is acct bound that can't be sold.

Half the problem in wvw right now is everyone is just playing for loot/ranks.  So they only want to do whatever gets them the most money fastest.  Which is why the meta is "fight 20 guys with a map que and transfer to another server if another map que plays when we do".

 

Yeah and that's the thing about pvp players too, they like having stuff to show off. That's why skins are a popular thing in shooters. But it's probably another pointless avenue to have more cosmetics.

 

In wvw there's really only one good wvw exclusive gear skin set to earn, but most probably won't see if they turn their settings low to function in zergs. Also a bulky backpiece which most don't use anymore, an annoying accessory that a lot want turned off, and I would say all the wvw weapon skins probably get pasted over with a cash shop one instead.

 

You earn titles by rank but a lot of people don't see it because compact names option, or you can earn a lot of titles by achievements which don't show unless you target a person and even then it's still irrelevant. Even God of WvW is kinda seen as a joke.

 

You can't look up most stats, like you can't look up the top tens, nothing to focus on, I mean you even have people on streams bragging about killing a million players, even though it's not really a personal achievement when it's basically a tag and bag in wvw. So yeah only thing most can focus on is play for the "gold" rewards and get them as fast as possible.

[Elvirais.5472]

On 7/9/2021 at 3:14 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

(...) We also need more total maps, of different varieties. One can even be a large white cube for all the fight guilds to go fight in for "real WvW.'

 

++ more different maps since we've had the same maps for so many years now, it gets boring. At least a few extra, and then rotate between them weekly. Doesn't have to be that unique, if all the towers are in the same spot but it's a different theme, that would at least be a start.

[DeceiverX.8361]

- Profession/gear balance is more or less nonexistent with rampant bad PvP design.

 

- Profession/gear balance is more or less nonexistent with rampant bad PvP design.

 

- Profession/gear balance is more or less nonexistent with rampant bad PvP design.

 

- Profession/gear balance is more or less nonexistent with rampant bad PvP design.

 

- Warclaw and DBL actively punish small group play.

 

- No way to disable particle effects without totally standardizing models.  I want to see peoples' armor and races, just not their strobe rave of nonsense.  GW2's early rather rustic aesthetic was a huge appeal for me - I'm fairly photosensitive and epileptic, and the effects being so out of hand is a huge reason why I don't play open world, and sometimes is enough to make me log out of WvW quite early.  It's just way too much.

 

- Rewards are absolutely atrocious for small groups/solo players.

 

- Increasing dependence and power placed in PvE like T7 food etc.; you can't really maintain your character's power by just playing WvW.

 

- FPS Lag in larger engagements.