Are Primordus and Jormag truly dead?

[Faridah.8431]

On 7/12/2021 at 4:52 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I always enjoy it when I see comments like this because I've never actually seen people explain what was wasted about... well anything they claim was wasted, otuside of really over the top narratives that would have never happened because they don't make sense.

I think where you have mentioned number of maps as a metric among other things, it really just boils down to wasted gameplay potential. As you stated yourself, it was clear that IBS got cut, so there would have been a better fleshing out of Primordus within the original scope of IBS, which along with whatever they ended up doing with Jormag during that period, could have led to a much more satisfying conclusion. 

 

By comparison, Champions as it was split out was not particularly compelling and was rather repetitive. And the final entry just very quickly killed the two dragons off. It felt like we didn't work though the rest of what we needed to to get to that point in the story which made it rather jarring for the majority of the player base who have voiced an opinion on the release.

 

Secondarily, it would have been nice to flesh out more of that EOTN area including perhaps the Centaur homelands and perhaps portions of The Depths. I think if those areas focused on the Primordus portion of this storyline, then it would have felt less rushed when we get to Dragonstorm in Champions. I do also wonder...if Primordus is gone, what do all the stone Dwarves do now? Presumably for the immediate future they continue to pursue and destroy the Destroyers, but at some point the Destroyers will be wiped out.

 

Also just from a flow perspective, IBS started out with rather good and compelling intentions, but very quickly petered out as it progressed. Masteries were not compelling at all, and while it can be said previous mastery lines did act as gates to progression or access to areas, they at least were in fun ways like gliding or mounts vs here now you can press F at a Raven Lock or portal. Then, the metas were not the most compelling thing either compared to past content.

 

Anyway that's just my perspective on it.

 

EDIT: As for the original question posed by the OP, yes I think they are both dead (as any other dead dragons in GW2 at this point). And it should stay that way. While I am disappointed in how Jormag/Primordus played out, for better or worse they should stay dead instead of having some weird contrivance to bring them back. I am totally onboard with the idea that expansion 3 should be the End of Dragons and GW2 can move into some more interesting directions. 

 

Personally as a GW1 veteran, I'd be interested to see how a world without Elder Dragons reacts. Charr and Kryta made a peace treaty due to the dragons, what happens when dragons are gone? The Vigil and the Pact exist for the dragon threat, do they pivot or dissolve? We've seen a world map, do we get to explore new areas or continents that haven't been previously explored in the franchise. So many options.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

7 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

I think where you have mentioned number of maps as a metric among other things, it really just boils down to wasted gameplay potential. As you stated yourself, it was clear that IBS got cut, so there would have been a better fleshing out of Primordus within the original scope of IBS, which along with whatever they ended up doing with Jormag during that period, could have led to a much more satisfying conclusion.

What do you think there was there left to flesh out about Primordus exactly? Even in the original hypothetical plan for IBS, the one Primordus focused map we missed out on, the one in the Centaur Homelands, would have most likely been the same thing we got in Champions. Primordus awakens due to Jormag waking at the end of Jormag Rising, is now flooding the surface with his Destroyers, and everyone has to come together to stem the tide. The only difference is that, instead of a bunch of scattered DRMs, it would have been on one map.

 

If anything, Champions probably helped the story in this regard. GW2 has always had the issue where we are told the Elder Dragons are such a big problem, but their minions very rarely showed up in the more inhabited areas of the world. Instead they're sequestered off in the middle of nowhere like Orr, Frostgorge, or Mount Maelstrom. Had IBS gone like it was originally going to, thats exactly what would have happened with Primordus' invasion. It would have been sequestered off into the Centaur Homelands, aka, a sparsely populated woodlands region, far away from anything of note. Instead we have Primordus and Jormag's forces attacking Rata Sum, Lions Arch, Ebonhawke, the Ascalonian Settlement, Sylvari villages, and the Skritt capital, in Brisban, Kodan Sanctuaries in Snowden, etc. Making it actually feel like an invasion.

7 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

By comparison, Champions as it was split out was not particularly compelling and was rather repetitive. And the final entry just very quickly killed the two dragons off. It felt like we didn't work though the rest of what we needed to to get to that point in the story which made it rather jarring for the majority of the player base who have voiced an opinion on the release.

What hadn't we gone though exactly? All the way back in LWS3 we went through the whole process of finding out what Jormag and Primordus' weaknesses were(each other), and Taimi even built a machine that would have killed them both right then and there, had we not destroyed it to stop Balthazar.

 

The only thing we needed to "work through" was getting Primordus and Jormag together so they could fight... and Anet had set that up in LWS3. If Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses, and Braham is the Norn who will kill Jormag since he broke the tooth... doesn't that mean that Braham will have to become Primordus to kill Jormag? People were pointing this out back in LWS3, and that plot got progressed through Bitterfrost, everything Braham went through between then and IBS, and even in IBS where he worked through the remaining parts of the Asiger 2.0 parallel Anet set up with all of his actions in Bjora and Drizzlewood. The only part left to work through was the past Champions covered.

• Braham starting to sense Destroyers(Rata Sum attack)
• That feeling getting more precise(Metrica DRM)
• Braham seeking guidance about it, the prophecy, and how Jormag and Primordus being each other's weaknesses ties into the prophecy(Thunderhead DRM)
• Braham getting one last push into what he needs to do via a cryptic metaphor from Owl(Snowden DRM)
• Braham actually following through with it, and becoming Primorduss champion(Wildfire instance)
• Braham using his newfound champion status to pit Primordus' forces against Jormag's(Fireheart Rise DRM)

Which is... probably what the big over arching plot of chapters 5/6 in the Centaur homelands would have been, alongside the Primordus invades plot. The exact same as it was in the first three Champions release.

 

Beyond that, the only thing would have been the big ground pound in Dragonstorm, and looking at Arah story mode, Dragon's Stand, and Dragonfall, none of them had a lot of big story developments. By the time we reach that point we know everything we need to know to end the story, we are just putting all of that to use.. which is what we were doing in the DRMs as is anyways.

7 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

Secondarily, it would have been nice to flesh out more of that EOTN area including perhaps the Centaur homelands and perhaps portions of The Depths. I think if those areas focused on the Primordus portion of this storyline, then it would have felt less rushed when we get to Dragonstorm in Champions. I do also wonder...if Primordus is gone, what do all the stone Dwarves do now? Presumably for the immediate future they continue to pursue and destroy the Destroyers, but at some point the Destroyers will be wiped out.

The already did the Depths stuff for the Asura and Dwarves back in HoT, LWS3, and parts of PoF, LWS4, and even Vision of the Past in IBS. And the Dwarves will continue to fight destroyers, Icebrood, Branded, Risen, and Modrem, until they are all wiped out, which will take decades most likely.

7 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

Also just from a flow perspective, IBS started out with rather good and compelling intentions, but very quickly petered out as it progressed. Masteries were not compelling at all, and while it can be said previous mastery lines did act as gates to progression or access to areas, they at least were in fun ways like gliding or mounts vs here now you can press F at a Raven Lock or portal. Then, the metas were not the most compelling thing either compared to past content.

Gliding and Mounts were the big ticket features of expansions. You shouldn't have expected that sort of mastery in IBS. I would also argue that gliding and mounts have been two of the worst mastery lines the game ever added, simply because they do nothing but negate large parts of the design of the rest of the game. Smaller, more situational, mastery lines like IBS ones, and the Ancient Magics mastery from LWS3, are more what mastery lines should be.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 7/17/2021 at 12:41 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Gliding and Mounts were the big ticket features of expansions. You shouldn't have expected that sort of mastery in IBS.

 

I agree, and I personally did not expect such things in IBS. The problem, in my opinion, is that ANet decided to design (or at least market) IBS as "expansion-like" content. Even if few people actually expected something on the exact scale of gliding or mounts in terms of outright breaking old gameplay, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that "expansion-like" content would at least be minimally comparable in terms of game-changing usefulness. I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that United Legion waystations are anywhere near the region of gliding or mounts in terms of changing gameplay.

 

As to whether or not it's wiser for expansions to have more situational masteries like IBS vs game-breakers like gliding/mounts, that's a different issue entirely. I guess we can start with: 

On 7/17/2021 at 12:41 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I would also argue that gliding and mounts have been two of the worst mastery lines the game ever added, simply because they do nothing but negate large parts of the design of the rest of the game.

 

This is objectively inaccurate. Gliding enables new encounters to use the z axis in ways previously not possible with just jumps and terrestrial design. I personally think the updrafts in the Mouth of Mordremoth encounter were dumb and revealed gliding (as part of story encounter design) an equally dumb gimmick, but all the same that design is something ANet could now 'accomplish' that they could not without gliding. Yes, gliding might have negated older content design that used the threat of lethal falling damage or impassable gaps to restrict player movement, but that is not the sole thing that gliding accomplished. Same can be said for mounts. Mount skins, the griffon and skyscale collections/lore, and beetle racing certainly aren't nothing. Arguably even the fact that so many of us seem to like mounts (regardless of your thoughts on the matter) could be their greatest objective value.

 

On 7/17/2021 at 12:41 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Smaller, more situational, mastery lines like IBS ones, and the Ancient Magics mastery from LWS3, are more what mastery lines should be.

 

I believe I'm far from alone in calling IBS masteries unimpressive garbage. They are mostly analogous to other throwaway LW masteries that apply to just one map, and mean nothing anywhere else. As for the Ancient Magics, I would agree that Spectral Aid is a good one (and deserved the nerf/change), and Counter Magic at least has the potential to be more widely useful in designing scripted encounters.

 

[hugo.4705]

I still prefer thinking this is just a nightmare and that Anet will wake up and tell us it was a projection.

To tell us that woodland cascades and depths of Tyria aren't cancelled.

I highly recommend them to replay the LS3 episodes they asked us to replay. Especially the ones featuring Taimi.

 

No, primordius had 0 devellopement, it only started with ember bay and draconis mons. Instead of developping the plot it was sent to bin, the death vine destroyers with them. Tanneks. I should say tanneks, it is the real name of destroyers. Zhaithan had personnal story plus not less than 4 maps populated with risens. We are far from the count with primordius. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by hugo.4705

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

I still prefer thinking this is just a nightmare and that Anet will wake up and tell us it was a projection.

To tell us that woodland cascades and depths of Tyria aren't cancelled.

I highly recommend them to replay the LS3 episodes they asked us to replay. Especially the ones featuring Taimi.

I recommend you go replay the LWS3 episodes they asked us to replay, because the Depths never got cancelled. As far as we know IBS was going to have one map in the Centaur Homelands, and one in Anvil Rock, and that was it. In fact, we already got the Depths focused stuff with the Asura and Dwarves throughout the game, but especially HoT, LWS3, and onward.

 

For the Asura. Back in HoT and LWS3 we

• Went underground(in Tangled Depths)
• Found a famous lost Asuran city(Rata Novus)
• Learned more about the Asura who stayed underground to fight Primordus(the Rata Novans)
• Found research/technology they developed into fighting Primordus(the Dragon Lab)
• Used that to find a weakness for Primordus(Taimi found Jormag and Primordus are each other's weaknesses with the tech there)
• Applied that information to actually kill Primordus(Taimi's machine in LWS3, our actions in IBS)
• Dealt with the Inquest trying to steal said information(In Draconis Mons we stop them from raining the secrets of the Rata Novans who had fled to Draconis Mons after the Chak invasion of Rata Novus)

 

Same thing with the Dwarves

• Back in core we covered pretty much all of the old Dwarven lands(except Thunderhead Peak), met with Ogden(who was assumed to be the last living Dwarf), and had a big storyline about the Dwarves' successors, the Dredge.
• LWS3 gave us the Ember Bay release(Primordus focused) that introduced Rhoban, a new stone Dwarf, and that mainly had us using old Dwarven machinery to stop Primordus from accelerating the Volcano's build up to empower itself.
• Rhoban showed up again in PoF. There he is part of a Priory expedition into an old, underground, Dwarven citadel. Now infested with Destroyers, among other things. There we help him uncover the secrets of this citadel, and find and restore and set of ancient Dwarven weapons.
• Then there was the Deepstone fractal in LWS4. Giving us another story in an underground Dwarven citadel.
• Then we got Thunderhead in LWS4. This gave us the last significant area of Dwarven lands not covered in core. Rhoban shows up again as part of a Priory expedition examining the ruins(which go underground extensively). There we find the legacy of the Dwarves'(the Dragonsblood weapon Forge), and the ghost of the Dwarf who made the original Dragonsblood Spear, who helps us make more. We also collect the stories of the ancient Dwarven heroes via the Dragonsblood weapon collection, and this release also expands upon the Dredge story, by having us ally with the Dredge, get their technology, and have them aid us in the fight against the Dragons. Bringing the Dredge story to a nice conclusion.
• Then in IBS we got further development on the Dwarves with the Visions of the Past udpate. Giving us another Dwarven citadel in the far north, that gives us lore on what happened to the Stone Summit trying to undo the rite of the Great Dwarf, and tapping into Primordus' power to do so.

 

Before Champions even rolled around we had multiple underground Asuran cities/settlements(Rata Novus/Rata Arcanum), and multiple underground Dwarven citadels(several in core, Derelict Delves, Deepstone, Thunderhead), including whole maps set underground(Draconis Mons). There was nothing "cancelled" about the Depths.

 

4 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

No, primordius had 0 devellopement, it only started with ember bay and draconis mons. Instead of developping the plot it was sent to bin, the death vine destroyers with them. Tanneks. I should say tanneks, it is the real name of destroyers. Zhaithan had personnal story plus not less than 4 maps populated with risens. We are far from the count with primordius. 

Yep he got zero development... which is why Anet did all of the Asuran and Dwarven story stuff connected to him throughout the game from, core to IBS. Zero development there.

 

And Zhaitain has "build up" content in Bloodtide and Sparkfly, and the typical three maps + Dragon fight in Orr. Primordus got "build up" content with his destroyers showing up all over the place(Metrica, Brisban, Kessex, Lornars, Timberline, Mount Maelstrom). His minions were a big focus in several of the core game's story arcs, and a big story focus in LWS3, and Champions. And he got two of the three maps direct fight maps he was going to get(Ember Bay and Draconis Mons), as well as the Dragon fight in Dragonstorm. With the DRMs replacing the third map.

 

Pretty equal there.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[hugo.4705]

They can still throw us experiencing depths of tyria when ptimordius stirs for the first time thanks to scrying pool. We can even visit quora sum.

There is no content/devellopment regarding primordius apart Draconis mons, Ember Bay, the primordius weapon set and hellfire armor eventually. Got killed in 5 mins with Jormag vomitting in its mouth.

 

Ah yes, Rata Novus the empty rumbles wihtout asura. Rata Arcanum? Nothing in vaults only inquest bringing back some golems to rata primus invariant enclave. Deepstone fractal? The dwarven fractal without a single dwarf? And since when random events counts as dragons devellopment/content?

 

The only interesting thing, dragon lab of rata novus is thrown to bin and replaced with a cheap lab in eye of the north now. Don't see any depths of Tyria. Thunderhead? A fort just in a mountain? How it is deep underground in the depths? It is surface. Same for rata novus or any structure that can be cited in current game state. Okay deepstone fractal but only that.

Final point.

 

Thanks to the wonderful, very conveniant scrying pool and visions of the past they can make the first Primordius Awakening in 1120 AE and let us explore Quora Sum. If they make a Quora Sum vision of the past this would be the primordius content / devellopment and I will praise it.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by hugo.4705

[The Boz.2038]

On 7/12/2021 at 8:40 PM, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Are Primordus and Jormag truly dead?

Gods, I hope so.
Killing them was a mistake, the fact that they went for it, and the way they did it, but now that it's done, "yeah, but not really" would be an even greater error, from a narrative standpoint.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

There is no content/devellopment regarding primordius apart Draconis mons, Ember Bay, the primordius weapon set and hellfire armor eventually. Got killed in 5 mins with Jormag vomitting in its mouth.

Besides all the times its minions showed up in the personal story, and in the open world, in core. Various appearances throughout other LW chapters/expansions. And also Champions.

5 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

Ah yes, Rata Novus the empty rumbles wihtout asura. Rata Arcanum? Nothing in vaults only inquest bringing back some golems to rata primus invariant enclave. Deepstone fractal? The dwarven fractal without a single dwarf? And since when random events counts as dragons devellopment/content?

Well yes, all of the Asura who were underground died, as did everything else underground that wasn't the Stone Dwarves, because Primordus flooded the depth with Destroyers who killed everything. Hence the Asura, and Skritt, having to come to the surface in the first place. Same thing with all the Dwarven citadels... all the Dwarves abandoned them when they turned to stone and started their 250+ year long war against the Destroyers. So there wouldn't be any Asura/Dwarves there. We knew this back in core.

 

And you counted the Primordus weapon set/hellfire armor as Primrodus development... so if weapon and armor sets count, then events would count even more. And thats a nonsense things to ask in the first place, when do open world events, aka, a form of content, count as content for something... since forever? why do you think these events exist? That's like saying all those events with the Krytan bandits back in core don't count as bandit development.

5 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

The only interesting thing, dragon lab of rata novus is thrown to bin and replaced with a cheap lab in eye of the north now. Don't see any depths of Tyria. Thunderhead? A fort just in a mountain? How it is deep underground in the depths? It is surface. Same for rata novus or any structure that can be cited in current game state. Okay deepstone fractal but only that.

The Dragon Lab of Rata Novus wasn't thrown in the bin. It had a whole narrative arc in LWS3, and served its purpose, so Taimi let the other Asura have it in PoF. That isn't being thrown in the bin, thats serving its narrative purpose to the end.

 

And how is Thunderhead not in the depths? The Depths are anything underground. Most of Thunderhead's actual fort is underground. The Dragonsblood Forge area, the Grotto area, the Dwarven Catacombs area. Same thing with Rata Novus. This was true of many of the dungeons back in GW1: EoTN also. They were just under the surface, not miles deep, and were called "the Depths". I think you misunderstand what the Depths of Tyria actually are.

5 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

Thanks to the wonderful, very conveniant scrying pool and visions of the past they can make the first Primordius Awakening in 1120 AE and let us explore Quora Sum. If they make a Quora Sum vision of the past this would be the primordius content / devellopment and I will praise it.

I doubt they would ever do this. Adding in Quora Sum wouldn't add any substantial narrative development that Rata Novus didn't already cover. And it would have no living Asura in it just like Rata Novus didn't, for the same reasons.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[hugo.4705]

You read or? Quora Sum while it was attacked by primordius. Asura were fully alive, the buildings intact at this exact moment nothing alike rata novus. It would serves a purpose knowing how an underground asura megacity has fell. How was the asuran society at this tome how was the architecture. 

 

It leads nowhere apart ruining the discussion. Great job. If you don't want to discuss seriously, pass your way.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by hugo.4705

[Tyson.5160]

56 minutes ago, hugo.4705 said:

You read or? Quora Sum while it was attacked by primordius. Asura were fully alive, the buildings intact at this exact moment nothing alike rata novus. It would serves a purpose knowing how an underground asura megacity has fell. How was the asuran society at this tome how was the architecture. 

 

It leads nowhere apart ruining the discussion. Great job. If you don't want to discuss seriously, pass your way.

 

 

 

Might make for an interesting fractal…

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, hugo.4705 said:

You read or? Quora Sum while it was attacked by primordius. Asura were fully alive, the buildings intact at this exact moment nothing alike rata novus. It would serves a purpose knowing how an underground asura megacity has fell. How was the asuran society at this tome how was the architecture. 

 

It leads nowhere apart ruining the discussion. Great job. If you don't want to discuss seriously, pass your way.

If it was while it was being attacked by Primordus, the vast majority of the Asura would have already fled beforehand, and all but a few defenders would remain. You typically don't have the civies in a battlezone if you can avoid it. Most people would have fled after hearing how the other cities got attacked/destroyed.

 

The attack itself would be exactly like how we see Primordus attacks Rata Sum, or Metrica, which is the same way he attacks everything. We know how it fell, Primordus attacked it, and we know how Primordus attacks things.

 

Likewise, we know from Rata Novus, which was built by Asura who lived through Primordus' rising, as well as EoTN, where we first encounter the Asura, who were at the time fleeing the Destroyers, what Asuran architecture and society was at the time. It was exactly the same as it was now... except underground.

 

We can even see from concept art of the Asuran underground cities being attacked that their old cities look like their architecture does now.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/60/Asura_undercity_concept_art.jpg

This is further verified by old Asuran ruins near, or on, the surface, like Rata Pten in Mount Maelstrom, which dates back to when Orr was still a thriving nation... and uses the same style modern Asura towns do.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rata_Pten

 

Like, why do you think either their architecture, or society, would have changed at all? They Asura are still exactly who they were previously, just on the surface instead of underground.

 

I sometimes wonder where people get these strange ideas from.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Poormany.4507]

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Like, why do you think either their architecture, or society, would have changed at all? They Asura are still exactly who they were previously, just on the surface instead of underground.

 

True the architecture probably wouldn't have changed much (probably something similar to Rata Novus, which also would be great for asset reuse for a fractal or vision of the past), but their society and world outlook would almost certainly have been far different. They were one of, if not the most, powerful races back then without any kind of legitimate threat prior to Primordus, hence why they underestimated it and its effects. It would be interesting and cool imo to see that kind of Asuran society, even more arrogant and isolated than the GW1 Asura were, compared to the tamer ones of GW1 and GW2's times. I really doubt any of the past Asura would have even thought of (or being in need of) associating, working with, or far less asking for help from a human, or any other primitive "bookah" race prior to GW1 EotN's events, a sharp difference from the GW2 Asura.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Poormany.4507

[hugo.4705]

13 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Might make for an interesting fractal…

Indeed.

 

I wasn't speaking of those artworks Sajuuk, you linked the two first ones you found without going further:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Carlyn_Lim#/media/File:"Asura_Underground_Laboratory"_concept_art.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Carlyn_Lim#/media/File:"Asuran_Underground_Laboratory_1"_concept_art.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Carlyn_Lim#/media/File:"Asuran_Underground_Pillars"_concept_art.jpg

And please go don't say it is rata novus, it isn't rata novus is EMPTY and it uses RECENT assets. There are only a few unique models that are copy pasted everywhere: Destroyer/data cyan displays, cyan crystal pillar and rata novan console. All the rest is modern pentagonal tunnels that feels wrong cause the same can be found in rata primus or around tyria.

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Destroyer_and_Tannek_concept_art

Ah yes indeed we did saw a lot of different destroyers. Nope. There are plenty that we never seen.

 

Asura even have a weapon set:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Eye_of_the_North_concept_art#/media/File:"Asura_Weapon"_concept_art.jpg

 

"Like, why do you think either their architecture, or society, would have changed at all? They Asura are still exactly who they were previously, just on the surface instead of underground. "

To be more precise, Asura were on the surface but then went underground and then was chased back to surface.

No everything is different and the first thing is golems: MOX and vetteran classic golems like in eotn asura gate.

The technology was surely more advanced that what they have currently and so golem marks we never saw.

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storyline_of_Eye_of_the_North#/media/File:Golem_concept_art_4.jpg

Ah yeah, indeed really looks like what we have in gw2! nope

 

Don't let me start on how asura built their mega floating cube which is a thing we never saw since gw1;

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Asura_architecture_concept_art

Specifically: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Asura_architecture_concept_art#/media/File:Building_Rata_Sum_concept_art.jpg

And look at this ruins, it doesn't look at all as what we have in gw2:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Asura_architecture_concept_art#/media/File:Asuran_ruins_concept_art.jpg

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Asura_architecture_concept_art#/media/File:Asuran_underwater_dumping_grounds_concept_art.jpg

 

Those concept arts are the proofs that Quora Sum would be nothing alike what we have currently and that exploring those lores points and ideas is worthy, maybe not for you, but I know several peoples that will hope in my boat for such an expansion or fractal.

 

And you know what? There is even an asuran ship art!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Asura_architecture_concept_art#/media/File:"Asura_Ship"_concept_art.jpg

I would sell my arm to arrive at Cantha in that ship.

 

"The attack itself would be exactly like how we see Primordus attacks Rata Sum, or Metrica, which is the same way he attacks everything. We know how it fell, Primordus attacked it, and we know how Primordus attacks things. "

Because you saw primordius doing a big attack during champion? Me not. Rata sum "assault" was just a scouting from Primordius, and outposts attacks were distractions.

We saw nothing from how primordius attacks or how he leads its army because the devellopment was shut before beggining with ibs finale. The ending was just rushed, easy to spot, only 2013 gw2 destroyer foes.

Don't tell me this is good development? Jormag got frost legion, boneskinner, frenir, ice golems, drakkar....

How do you know how the attacks would go? They ruined primordius personality stating he is dumb dumb and animal whereas implementing otherwise, targetted assault against strategic places during DRMS.

Don't start with "Yeah but the core events!" during those, primordius was SLEEPING.

 

And OFC mount maelstrom Megadestroyer isn't enough it is just a regular world boss that looks like all the foes around it, now particularity, pew pew 1 skill on it. At least, Sorrow embrace destroyer of world is what i call a real boss.

 

"If it was while it was being attacked by Primordus, the vast majority of the Asura would have already fled beforehand, and all but a few defenders would remain. You typically don't have the civies in a battlezone if you can avoid it. Most people would have fled after hearing how the other cities got attacked/destroyed. "

 

I will end answering you on this point. No, they can't have fled before, as a book says i think it is "Old College Try" but Konig may find where is written that info, destroyers swarmed through ASURA GATES. There is no ways they could have avoided it. Apart turning off the network but it was too late, just think of rata novus, it is the same, just  destroyers instead of chaks. Asura would have NOT FLED. Like rata novus, they would feel firstly superiors, all staying in place, fighting them with their ultra advanced weaponry, can imagine a row of zhaithan-pact mothership MEGA-LIT class cannons, but they would observe it is kinda non efficient. And so they would use Lockdown / Defensive force fields barriers and activate other turrets. Maybe hijacking water supply to use it against them. Then two solution:

1-Like rata novus, many made a final stand to allow remaining survivors to flee and create Rata Sum. Everything is destroyed.

2-Second possibility, like the myth of Atlantis this city was very advanced technogically and had access to cryogenisation, stasis, DNA editing, Bio engineering using renewable ressources and being autonomous with the cave. Some of the individual would have been put in stasis in a deep lab or everyone fled but the adavanced shields prevented the city to be destroyed, but to avoid attracting destroyers, everyone left. The energy consummed itself, letting the city in the dark waiting to be rediscovered.

THIS IS ENTIRE POSSIBLE: Dragon lab of rata novus isn't destroyed. Imagine if quora sum put herself in lockdown with heavy fortified doors.

 

Ah and another thing, it is important to quote the timeline:

1175 AE: Rata Arcanum of Zinn wiped by druids.

1173 AE: Rata Novus wiped by chaks.

(1147 AE): A date written on rata sum cube in game. Date of building?

1120 AE: Primordius awaken and forces remaining subterranean races to move to the surface.

1078 AE GW1 EOTN - Primordus, the Elder Fire Dragon, stirs but does not awaken. The asura appear on the surface.

 

Sorry, but in 97 years, architecture, politics, society organization can change. 1078-1175 AE.

I send you to our history as humans. The industrial Revolution changed the shape of the world; for ref: 1760 to 1820 and 1840.

1760 to 1840 is 80 years.

 

Can take personnal story date if you want, we starts in 1325. Even worst. If we consider that core tyria asura architecture have been applied from not a long ago, it is a difference of 247 Years. Impossible that in 247 years nothing has changed. We already see a difference between rata novus dragon lab and modern asura/inquest lab. So for sure there is a difference between rata novus appearance and EOTN era labs. I don't even speak of labs before EOTN.

 

The asura lore is so lackluster that we don't even know if destroyers were alreayd here before 1078 AE, and since when asura arrived on Tyria/ were on Tyria. And that is intriguing considering they may be very very old.

 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, hugo.4705 said:

snip

Since this is a very long post I am going to cut it down so it doesn't create a massive post wall.

 

1. Concept art is just that... concept art. Its art done to give the actual modelers/texture artists inspiration for what they actually put in-game. That does not mean anything in concept art is canon until it makes it into the game. That an artist had ideas for some of these things doesn't mean the people actually making the game ever considered them to be canon, or having existed. The only canon Asuran architecture, or Destroyer types, to exist are the ones that appear in game. There is no such thing as a missing Asuran architectural style, or Destroyer type, unless you can find unused models in the actual game code. And the fact that Rata Novus used the cube architecture, despite seemingly being made before the Rata Novus cube was, shows that cube based architecture was normal for them even back then.

 

2. You are wrong about the Asura's history The Asura started off underground, but had some people who sent to the surface and founded settlements like Rata Pten. The Asura didn't start off above ground, go underground, then come back up above ground. They were just underground, and had sent some people to the surface before EoTN, then more came to the surface during EoTN, and then the rest came up between EoTN and GW2 when Primordus awoke, and flooded the depths.

 

3. Yes... we did see Primordus do a big attack during Champions. He literally initiated a large scale invasion of the surface, attacking multiple important locations like Lion's Arch, the Dragonsblood Forge in Thunderhead Peaks, the fortress of Ebonhawke, the Flame Citadel, and the Centaur Homelands, among others, while sending powerful champions to assist those attacks. Its no different then Zhaitan's attack on Claw Island back in core. None of those attacks were distractions either. What do you think he was distracting from? They were all attempts to gain power. As Taimi pointed out during the Metrica DRM, and as Jhavi and Marj point out in the Gendarren DRM, Primordus gets stronger the more his minions burn things. He was sending his minions to burn anything, and everything, they could to gain more power. That isn't a distraction, that's just his main plan. Primordus literally had the largest scale invasion of any dragon in the game thus far. If Champions wasn't a big attack, there has never been a big attack by a Dragon in Guild Wars 2.

 

4. Primordus has always had the smallest minion variety. The reason why? Hes never cared about corrupting living things, so he doesn't have the range of forms the other dragons do from corrupting living things. He literally shouldn't have the kinds of things Jormag did, because Jormag acted completely different then Primordus did.

 

5. Even animals like wolves are able to make strategic attacks on enemies. That doesn't make them "intelligent" in the way people normally use the word. The same goes for Primordus. There is no contradiction there.

 

6. Primordus wasn't sleeping during core. He was awake, and moving around. There is even the "Transfer Chaser" achievement where you track his movement from the Shiverpeaks into the Ring of Fire. Primordus was only put to sleep at the end of LWS3, and was asleep only through PoF, LWS4, and IBS up until Champions. Primordus was awake, and active, in core, LWS1, LWS2, HoT, and all but the end of LWS3.

 

7. Actually they could have fled before. The Great Destroyer awoke in 1078 AE, flooding the Depths with enough Destroyers to cause many Asura to have to flee to the surface and found Rata Sum. While the Great Destroyer was defeated, many Destroyer continued to be active in depths in the decades following, until Primordus fully woke up. they had literal decades of forewarning, and an already established surface city to flee too. And the idea they wouldn't have fled doesn't add up... since we saw many of them flee the Depths from even a small invasion in EoTN. The Asura are egotists, but have also been shown to be quite cowardly in the face of substantive opposition. And Asuran technology was significantly less advanced back then then it is now, there wouldn't have been rows of giant lasers... they didn't develop those until much later since they never had a reason to have them.

 

8. Realism doesn't really apply to fictional races. Its a common trope in both fantasy and scifi universes that things like technology, architecture, and politics, doesn't change or develop in hundreds, and in often case thousands, of years. Authors do this to maintain the uniqueness of the individual races, and the setting, so they can keep stories going on there, without having to deal with the pesky element of "time" changing things from their iconic look. Its absolutely possible the Asuran haven't changed much, if at all, in 250+ years. That's the way Anet wrote them to make sure they stayed like the Asura people remembered from GW1.

 

This all ties into a larger problem in many fandoms. People become overly attached to specific races, or concepts, and build increasingly elaborate headcanons, often times latching onto non-canon ideas/concept arts, about how those things should be, and then become disappointed when the actual result isn't like their headcanon, when it never would have been since it was never portrayed like that in the first place. That doesn't mean there was "wasted potential" or "cut content" that just means you never liked the thing itself, you liked the overblown idea of the thing you had in your head.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Faridah.8431]

I'm not going to do a wall of text quote, but some thoughts:

 

1. I actually totally agree that I think mounts while you gained something, you lost others. For one thing, I'd hate to see mounts in Kaineng City.

2. Icebrood Saga was built as a replacement for a boxed expansion. Its clear that soon after the Prologue came out that this changed. The masteries are not compelling at all. Not saying they needed to be more in line with gliding or mounts, but you needed something more interesting than raven locks and such.

3. When I say The Depths, it would have been fun the explore old EOTN era dungeon areas and have underground content within them. More than just jumping puzzles or mini dungeons.

4. I would have like to also explore other areas like where Gunnar's Hold used to be, and the Centaur Lands still would have theoretically fleshed out more story. You saying it would have just all been DRM in one map is a big presumption.

 

Anyway, I understand your opinion. I think that IBS as a whole very clearly suffered from being cut and rushed to finish and in my mind that means story and gameplay suffered. And I think it's very clear that the vast majority of people who voiced an opinion on the matter agree. So at the end of the day guess we are just going to agree to disagree. Sure some story elements did absolutely play out in earlier LW seasons for Primordus, but that doesn't negate the fact that we could have had more fleshing out of the story leading to his and Jormag's confrontation. I just feel it's overall a sloppy ending. You don't. Fine. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and I don't think we'll change each other's minds here. When you play something you either enjoyed it, you didn't enjoy it, or had a mixed reaction. I guess you can say I felt largely mixed with IBS.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

13 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

4. I would have like to also explore other areas like where Gunnar's Hold used to be, and the Centaur Lands still would have theoretically fleshed out more story. You saying it would have just all been DRM in one map is a big presumption.

It was actually more of

 

Champions chapters "Truce" and "Power" would have been The Centaur Homelands map in chapters 5/6 of IBS

• Primordus' awakens, beginning his invasion
• Jormag allies with the Asura to leverage thier expertise to find a weakness to use against Primordus
• Braham begins getting his Destroyer sense power, wonders what his role is in the Prophecy, and how that ties into Jormag and Primordus' condition
• Taimi's research into the Destroyers getting stronger the more they burn leads Ryland to do the frozen thing for Jormag, to help Jormag get power to fight Primordus
• We chase down Ryland to try to make him answer for it/stop him from taking Owl. Boss fight with Ryland. Owl dies, Ryland gets away.

 

Between chapters 6 and 7 there maybe would have been a Darkrime Delves size Vision of the Past for Braham going into the volcano to become Primordus' champion

 

Champions chapters "Balance" and :Judgement" would have been the Dragonstorm map meta at Anvil Rock for 7/8

• With both dragons empowered we see much larger/stronger forces from both sides
• Now that Braham is Primordus' champion, the Destroyers and Icebrood are engaging in direct combat against each other
• Braham shows up struggling with controlling Primordus
• Chapter 7 would likely end with a boss fight against Braham, to parallel the boss fight with Ryland in chapter 6, so players have the chance to fight both one on one before the final battle
• Chapter 8 would basically just be Dragonstorm.

 

Honestly Anet could tell me that Dragonstorm was the original fight they were working on for the end of IBS, and I would believe it. Its of the same size/scope as the Mouth of Mordremoth fight in HoT. Just without the like hour long meta part before it... which is what the some of the DRMs effectively replaced

13 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

2. Icebrood Saga was built as a replacement for a boxed expansion. Its clear that soon after the Prologue came out that this changed. The masteries are not compelling at all. Not saying they needed to be more in line with gliding or mounts, but you needed something more interesting than raven locks and such.

The problem with this is that most of the kinds of masteries people say are compelling are the kinds of things most developers explicitly want to avoid in general. People constantly ask for masteries that apply all over the game world, but those tend to not only be the hardest to do, but also the worst for the game in the long run. Previous maps can't take any real advantage of them, since they obviously weren't made for them. And the expectation that they remain that useful limits future map design since you have to build around an ever increasing stockpile of gimmicks that people expect to be in most, if not every map. Leading to massive feature creep.

 

The more limited masteries like the non gliding based HoT masteries, or the LWS3 masteries like the thermal propulsion, Koda's flame, Oakheart's Reach, etc. are the kind of masteries you should expect. Very limited context abilities, that are only used in 1-2 maps. This keeps each map feeling unqiue since it has its own gimmick, and allows the devs to not have to worry much about feeling forced to it into most future maps. One of the better parts of the IBS masteries for me was that they were limited to very specific content, and that content only. Though the United Legions Waystation should be limited to Drizllewood, as its obviously OP, and thus turned into a massive crutch in the rest of the game. Which is the exact problem the "compelling" masteries people ask for usually have.

 

I don't think the masteries being the way they are for Bjora or Drizzlewood is an indication of any sort of change. If anything, its an indication of Anet learning from the mistakes they made with gliding in HoT, and Mounts in PoF, and not repeating them.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Faridah.8431]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:07 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

It was actually more of

 

Champions chapters "Truce" and "Power" would have been The Centaur Homelands map in chapters 5/6 of IBS

• Primordus' awakens, beginning his invasion
• Jormag allies with the Asura to leverage thier expertise to find a weakness to use against Primordus
• Braham begins getting his Destroyer sense power, wonders what his role is in the Prophecy, and how that ties into Jormag and Primordus' condition
• Taimi's research into the Destroyers getting stronger the more they burn leads Ryland to do the frozen thing for Jormag, to help Jormag get power to fight Primordus
• We chase down Ryland to try to make him answer for it/stop him from taking Owl. Boss fight with Ryland. Owl dies, Ryland gets away.

 

Between chapters 6 and 7 there maybe would have been a Darkrime Delves size Vision of the Past for Braham going into the volcano to become Primordus' champion

 

Champions chapters "Balance" and :Judgement" would have been the Dragonstorm map meta at Anvil Rock for 7/8

• With both dragons empowered we see much larger/stronger forces from both sides
• Now that Braham is Primordus' champion, the Destroyers and Icebrood are engaging in direct combat against each other
• Braham shows up struggling with controlling Primordus
• Chapter 7 would likely end with a boss fight against Braham, to parallel the boss fight with Ryland in chapter 6, so players have the chance to fight both one on one before the final battle
• Chapter 8 would basically just be Dragonstorm.

 

Honestly Anet could tell me that Dragonstorm was the original fight they were working on for the end of IBS, and I would believe it. Its of the same size/scope as the Mouth of Mordremoth fight in HoT. Just without the like hour long meta part before it... which is what the some of the DRMs effectively replaced

The problem with this is that most of the kinds of masteries people say are compelling are the kinds of things most developers explicitly want to avoid in general. People constantly ask for masteries that apply all over the game world, but those tend to not only be the hardest to do, but also the worst for the game in the long run. Previous maps can't take any real advantage of them, since they obviously weren't made for them. And the expectation that they remain that useful limits future map design since you have to build around an ever increasing stockpile of gimmicks that people expect to be in most, if not every map. Leading to massive feature creep.

 

The more limited masteries like the non gliding based HoT masteries, or the LWS3 masteries like the thermal propulsion, Koda's flame, Oakheart's Reach, etc. are the kind of masteries you should expect. Very limited context abilities, that are only used in 1-2 maps. This keeps each map feeling unqiue since it has its own gimmick, and allows the devs to not have to worry much about feeling forced to it into most future maps. One of the better parts of the IBS masteries for me was that they were limited to very specific content, and that content only. Though the United Legions Waystation should be limited to Drizllewood, as its obviously OP, and thus turned into a massive crutch in the rest of the game. Which is the exact problem the "compelling" masteries people ask for usually have.

 

I don't think the masteries being the way they are for Bjora or Drizzlewood is an indication of any sort of change. If anything, its an indication of Anet learning from the mistakes they made with gliding in HoT, and Mounts in PoF, and not repeating them.

Yeah to add additional context, not saying ANET would have changed the conclusion to IBS, but I like some of what you described as a potential path with the additional maps and episodes would have been a better buildup to Dragonstorm.

 

As for mysteries, that's a fair point. I guess ultimately I don't find "now you can run up to something and press " f". As a compelling unlock, and that goes for HoT as well. But perhaps I don't know the solution at this stage.

[Tyson.5160]

On 7/12/2021 at 3:50 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I looked through the VB dialog for the various zones/events. Only reference to things coming back I could see was in reference to the champion Blademaster Diarmid, one of the champion I had already mentioned earlier. And Anet themselves have said it spread itself by doing both corrupting, and copying. It isn't just taking one of everything and copying it endlessly.

She says they each get a part of their spectrum. And they did. Each dragon got part of Kralk's spectrums, she never says they all get all the powers equally.

There is actually another reference that isn’t on the wiki surprisingly, there’s dialogue in Jaka Itzel regarding a particular Itzel leaving with a scouting party and coming back as a Mordrem, I’ll have to add it to the wiki, when I get the chance.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 7/23/2021 at 4:07 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Champions chapters "Truce" and "Power" would have been The Centaur Homelands map in chapters 5/6 of IBS

• Primordus' awakens, beginning his invasion

any speculation how centaurs would fit into IBS? the trailer showed them with human captives

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

59 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

any speculation how centaurs would fit into IBS? the trailer showed them with human captives

The trailer shows a lot of things that weren't 100% entirely representative of what we got. Like the "Kodan dead being sent off on ice blocks being lit on fire" thing. Which is what the Kodan normally do, but Jormag freezing over the water in Bjora caused them to have to go the burial shrines they use there.

 

If I had to guess, the Centaurs would be treated much like how many of the allied factions were in Champions. Primordus comes in, starts wrecking their lands, and we go there to help. There would be some tension between us and them due to the past hostilities, but the overall theme would be "Primordus is such a big threat we have to put aside our differences and work together". Leading to us finally making peace with the Centaurs.

 

We know from lore from the base game that the Centaurs don't all hate humanity/the other races. The Taimini and Harathi were effectively bullied into the alliance because they feared the power of Ulgoth the Mighty of the Modniir tribe. With the failure of the Centaur War, and Ulgoth's death, back in core, as well as the revelation that it was Caudecus manipulating things that started the war in the first place, and the Destroyer invasion of their homelands, I could see many of the Centaurs finally going "this war isn't worth it anymore, we need their help", leading to them being open to peace with the other races.

 

We do know that Anet had ideas for the Centaurs to be one of the factions in Champions, but they got cut because Anet didn't think a single DRM was enough to have them becoming friendly make sense. I suspect that was an attempt by them to salvage the original plot they had envisioned there.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Firebeard.1746]

On 7/12/2021 at 1:34 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

 

Yes. They have tragically been wasted in a once promising storyline.

I never played GW1 so I didn't understand how much of an injustice the IB saga ending was to the storyline, but WP clued me in. It also taught me that in game dev, your biggest tease should be the next plot point. It's fine to have all these random crazy loose ends in case you need to turn them into something bigger, but to tease something at the end of a game and leave it hanging for that many years and then scrap it so unceremoniously is just like shooting your fanbase in the face. Especially the lore junkies.

[Ashantara.8731]

6 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I never played GW1 so I didn't understand how much of an injustice the IB saga ending was to the storyline, but WP clued me in.

 

I don't think the GW1 connection was the main reason the IBS's ending was bad - even without GW1, that would have been considered horrible writing, because to build up an exciting plot with Jormag being so smart and manipulative, then having them both, Jormag and Primordus, slain within a few minutes, with Jormag acting completely out-of-character (and all their crazy monologue throughout the whole mission) and Primordus not even getting a character storyline whatsoever... No, just no.

 

Also, from a technical point of view, both just showing their heads, basically, looked so extremely silly, I couldn't stop laughing. Imagine Smaug being portrayed like that in The Hobbit movie trilogy: not moving at all, just blabbering badly written lines while having a "champion" doing all the work. Is that how any of us imagine Elder Dragons in Tyria? (The only exception was Zhaitan, who obviously knew how to fly to some extent.) Even their dragon lieutenants, who also barely move, are more impressive than those two stooges at the end of the Champions chapter.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I don't think the GW1 connection was the main reason the IBS's ending was bad - even without GW1, that would have been considered horrible writing, because to build up an exciting plot with Jormag being so smart and manipulative, then having them both, Jormag and Primordus, slain within a few minutes, with Jormag acting completely out-of-character (and all their crazy monologue throughout the whole mission) and Primordus not even getting a character storyline whatsoever... No, just no.

Jormag didn't act out of character though. It spent all of IBS building an army, and gaining strength, just so it could fight Primordus, and kill it. So that it could be free from the "balance" that bound the two.

 

The manipulation of Bangar, the corruption of the Spirits of the Wild, the Frost Legion, making Ryland its champion, the freezing of people in the DRMs, camping on top of the ley-line hub in Anil Rock. All were plays to build itself up to fight Primordus. Jormag went into the battle everything was on its side. Even Aurene points out that so long as Jormag is connected to Ryland, and the frozen, it will keep Primordus cowed. And, if you somehow fail Dragonstorm, Jormag ends up winning because it was in the favorable position.

 

Jormag only lost because we were able to cut it off from Ryland, and Aurene was able to cut it of from its otuside magic. Something Jormag had no reasonable way to know we could do. That isn't acting out of character, thats simply not being all knowing... which it never was.

 

Also, Jormag had the same three map build up other dragons like Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik did. And the Dragonstorm fight is of the same size/scope as the Mouth of Mordremoth fight. It was no more killed off "in a few minutes" then any of the other dragons did.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[The Greyhawk.9107]

They may all have the same number of maps, but not all maps and the content therein are of the same level of quality. 

Even Arah's Victory or Death was better than Dragonstorm.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

28 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

They may all have the same number of maps, but not all maps and the content therein are of the same level of quality. 

Even Arah's Victory or Death was better than Dragonstorm.

I mean, that's your opinion, but IMO Victory or Death is still, by miles, the worst dragon fight in the game. Zhaitan does nothing but sit there and take you pressing 1 till he dies.

 

Dragonstorm is pretty much the Mouth of Mordremoth fight... but without the tedious 40+ minute long lane meta before it. Which, in many ways, makes is less annoying then Dragon's Stand is. And, unlike the Dragonfall final battle, where you fight three ultra generic champions you've already seen before, and then Kralk just... sits there while you stab him, Jormag and Primordus' champions are unique, and the dragons themselves actually participate in their own dragon fight.

 

I honestly get more enjoyment out of Dragonstorm then I do Dragonfall, or Victory or Death. Its not even a comparison. Dragonfall was such a huge step down after the Mouth of Mordremoth fight. Dragonstorm fixes Dragonfall's big issue, and so I have to put it above it for that.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509