Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Discussion Thread: Gameplay and Elite Specializations [MERGED]

[Golvellius.7856]

47 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

You did not quite correctly understand my idea and what it referred to.

The author I referred to in the last post emphasized the inconsistency of specialization with the spirit of Asian fantasy and that this could be a failure for the game in the Asian market.
- To this I replied that the specializations follow the spirit of Asian fantasy and the previous author simply did not understand the topic about which she/he spoke so zealously
 

Regarding the wishes of the players, I FULLY support this approach, since I myself am really looking forward to and hope for a two-handed sword on Revenant. And I really want other professions to receive the weapons/e-specs that they have always wished.
I am only referring to the fact that one should not associate a different choice of developers with their work with the national culture and their fantasy aspect.

 

I had to go back and re-read his post...  Indeed.  It's the very last sentence and I somehow missed that part of it:

Quote

It's a good way to flush hundreds of millions of dollars in potential revenue down the toilet, though, and alienate both anime fans waiting to see how this weeb expansion goes, as well as the entire Far East Asian market.

 

In light of that, you're 100% correct in your response.  Apologies to you.  Though, while I do have a slightly better understanding at least of their current fantasy preferences, I have to concede that I am completely out of my depth on both that AND what would actually satisfy and honor, Asian-themed fantasy MMO expectations of that market.

 

Also, for me as I can't speak for everyone, but...for me, the latter part of his final statement doesn't negate the former. Nor does it take away from the rest of what he's saying.  Which I wholeheartedly agree with.  For the Mesmer, give me the fans or the flying blades or both, but I'd prefer his suggestion as at least a baseline.  Admittedly though, I'm speaking out of turn because I don't really play a Mesmer.  I have one I've fiddled with extensively (full Ascended), but I just "have" him because I have tried every class (except Ele) over the years in search of replacement for my Thief.

 

For the Necro, again, I'm fine with Alchemy...and I think it's cool.  However, it's like the weapon is just decoration and aside from a new Shroud, there is nothing distinctly "Necro" about the class - and here is where I really agree with him.  The Harbringer is a hodgepodge of ideas from darts thrown at a suggestion board passed off as "innovation."  It comes off as an alchemist and not a particularly "dark" one.  It needs more "danky" necro-juice and it needs to do SOMETHING with the gun besides.....have it.

 

GS Revenant?  We'll see.  I absolutely adore my Revenant and he might become my main.  Especially if that's his class with the oni mask (from the class symbols) in the latest teaser.  I can get down with that. 🥰

 

No opinion on the Guardian.  I have one.  I've done nothing with him.  If the Rev is a fail, I'll likely see if he fills the Thief void if these awful rumors hold true. 😔 I've been reaper main for too long now and the Harbringer ain't doing it for me.

[Loules.8601]

18 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

In light of that, you're 100% correct in your response.  Apologies to you.  Though, while I do have a slightly better understanding at least of their current fantasy preferences, I have to concede that I am completely out of my depth on both that AND what would actually satisfy and honor, Asian-themed fantasy MMO expectations of that market.

 

I think that the main problem is not in the concept of specialization, but in their practical perception through traits. If the necromancer had been processed new elixirs into something that would correspond to the theme of the "magical alchemist", then the puzzle would have formed into a whole quite quickly. 

As for replacement for thief...
I can advise soulbeast with melee weapons, mesmer with swords (I personally liked it the most from the melee magic classes), revenant with Shiro (as you know) - well, you should not lose hope for a new e-spec for a Thief. Although the community did not like what was found in the data, for some reason it seems to me that the new spec should be very interesting regardless of weapon type. 
At the very least, we should not lose hope.
Also the presented e-specks have problems during the Beta, but these specks seemed to me to be very different from the traits used (for example, Renegade traits that seriously change the style of the gameplay).
It seems to me that it should be even more interesting with a Thief, because when professions received non-standard weapons, its implementation was almost always very interesting

 

18 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

No opinion on the Guardian.  I have one.  I've done nothing with him.  If the Rev is a fail, I'll likely see if he fills the Thief void if these awful rumors hold true. 😔 I've been reaper main for too long now and the Harbringer ain't doing it for me.

As a former Guardian-main, I tested the new spec on the last beta and I really liked it. Yes, he needs interesting and complex traits in order to fully reveal himself, but he seemed to me even more "Shiro" than the corresponding Legend of the Revenant. And for me personally, he is perceived not as an assassin or a revenant, but as an elite imperial "shadow squad" - not a squad of assassins and spies, but rather an assault squad of spec-ops. E-Spec needs a couple more beta tests for revision, but if you are looking for a replacement for Thief with a similar gameplay - a new Guard, I think, is the best choice. It is perceived for me not as a replacement, but as an alternative view, little more like a Shiro-revenant than a Thief.
The main thing is to wait until the moment when most of the beta will pass and the specialization, along with the rework of traits, will be completed.
I hope that you will be able to find something that suits your tastes - I believe that if not from the current, then from the new elite specializations you will find something interesting for yourself.

[Sylari.9814]

Re: Thief and other e-specs.

Defying expectations and treading new ground is what elites are all about. It's a core of having them make sense.

To the person saying they want to be dirty fighter sneaking around with stealth and daggers and swords and all that... you can already do that.  That is already a thing that exists go wild. 

 

Elites have never and shouldn't be just more of the same. 

[Golvellius.7856]

17 hours ago, Sylari.9814 said:

Re: Thief and other e-specs.

Defying expectations and treading new ground is what elites are all about. It's a core of having them make sense.

To the person saying they want to be dirty fighter sneaking around with stealth and daggers and swords and all that... you can already do that.  That is already a thing that exists go wild. 

 

Elites have never and shouldn't be just more of the same. 

 

Do me a courtesy and quote me if you'd like to exchange ideas with me...key word there being "exchange."  While I hold my personal opinions near and dear, I do enjoy open dialogue and constructive conversation.  I don't enjoy Internet "merry-go-rounds."  Also, I am a Thief/Assassin/Rogue main and have been for close to 30 years.  I'm invested lol.  My only ask is that if you don't have an affinity for the archetype, don't tell me how I should feel about it.

 

As it pertains to what absolutely should or absolutely should not be in terms of innovation vs expectation - that's all subjective.  The  developers have a right to express their creative freedom and we should certainly applaud their initiative.  Those who prefer innovative trends to classic implementations have a right to their space - and there is real value in innovation.  Those who have an expectation of familiarity have their own preferences and there is value in that as well.  All who are in some way invested in a subject have a right, if not an outright obligation, to express their opinion on it.

 

...and nobody's opinion is "right" or "wrong."  These sort of absolutes serve no one.  Moreover, "defying expectations" and "breaking ground" do not automatically guarantee success anymore than churning out sameness does.  In the same way that you can create innovation and produce something epic, you can just as easily ruin an IP or a theme by not honoring it's core.  You can also bore people to death by doing the same thing over and over.

 

The key is to find a happy medium.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Golvellius.7856

[Golvellius.7856]

One last time then I'm going to /stealth...

 

WARNING: *Incoming wall of text*

TL:DR version: Lemme stab som'n an vanish 

 

Let's talk about DC Comics and such for a second.  Any Gotham (NBC show) fans in here?  I am.  I loved that show - the cast, the stories, the visual themes were amazing.  As a HUGE Batman fan, I was wholly disinterested when I first heard about this show.  A Batman show without Batman!?  Nonsense.  The creators set out to do something innovative though, and to my surprise...they hit a home run.  Not simply because they did something unorthodox and new, but because they honored the spirit of the character.  Gotham created Batman and they turned the city into its own character.  In honoring the spirit of the character of Gotham, and ALL of the characters it created, they successfully honored Batman and produced a very true to the theme implementation of my favorite character.

(...and yes, this is a plug for Gotham lol.  If you're a Bat-fan and avoided the show for the same reason...I highly recommend you pick it up.)

 

Back to Guildwars and this whole "innovation" thing....

 

This is an MMO RPG.  ---ROLE--- playing game.  I'm not sure that everyone understands how important that first word is to the genre.  kitten....there is a whole segment of MMO gamers who don't just play, but LITERALLY RP their characters and I've nothing but respect for that.  The role in Role Playing Game MEANS something.

 

ROLE /rōl/
noun

an actor's part in a play, movie, etc.
Similar: part, character, title role, bit part, walk-on part, nonspeaking part

the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation.

 

Highlighted for emphasis...your ROLE in an ~R~PG is  who you are in a fantasy world.  Who are you?  Maybe some of you like it all and don't care.  We're all different, but many of us tend to gravitate towards a specific role.  In the classic fantasy setting, there are expectations for these roles that we all naturally settle into.

 

Fighter - heavy armor, direct fighting, any kind of weapon you can think of

Scoundrel - Finesse, sneaking, opportunistic, indirect fighting (me)
Magic user - Intelligence, spell casting, books, potions, and wands and such (not me)

Healer - Care giver, protector...

Nature fella - Spice gardens and squirrels 🐹

 

Even though there's all sorts of ways to implement this and all manner of sub-classifications and additional classifications.  We all look at that classic fantasy list and have our natural preference.  There is also for some of us, probably for most of us, an antithesis to our fantasy preference.  My antithesis is mage.  I have every class in the game but a mage and it's strange because that happened organically.  I just tried out every class in the game and one day, years later, realized that I had not made one.  Does that make me shallow or stupid and does it invalidate my opinion?  No.  I just naturally have no interest in that class or its mechanics.

 

I went through all of this to say it's unwise to value innovation so far above expectation that you alienate what brought people to your platform.  I don't want to "go wild" with a decade old core spec.  I DO want something shiny and new, but my expectations are stealth, countermeasures, and opportunistic melee damage...and wrap in the classic theme of where the expansion is going.  I highlighted stealth because it seems that from the outset, ANet has had a grudge against the mechanic - or at least they caved into all the initial whining.  Stealth comes at a cost that most don't understand...but I'm digressing.  They know what Thief mains want and it's not hard to deliver it.  IMO it'll be harder (and riskier) to do if you prioritize the "innovation" check box over the archetype check box.

 

OBVIOUSLY, I'm going to wait and see what they have for us.  However, none of the rumored stuff gives me any hope.  I'll take all the crow you guys can serve up if I'm wrong, but after playing the Harbringer in beta and fumbling with my "pirate" for a decade...I've not much confidence that they "get" it.

 

/stealth

 

~whispering from the shadows~

@Loules.8601 - Indeed.  I love my Revenant and that's probably where I'm going.  I'll have to make a new character though, because I currently have an Asura Rev and I can't listen to him in the story mode ROFL.  Anywho...  I've juggled all of its stances and its honestly hard for me to pick just two.  You've probably guessed that I keep going back to Demon and Assassin...lol.  Renegade/Demon is what appeals to me the most.  I'm eagerly awaiting the GS Revenant reveal.

 

*Also edit #2 for your comments here that I meant to revisit:

Quote

I think that the main problem is not in the concept of specialization, but in their practical perception through traits. If the necromancer had been processed new elixirs into something that would correspond to the theme of the "magical alchemist", then the puzzle would have formed into a whole quite quickly. 

 

Just YES to this.  Yes, to saying in two sentences what I could only say with a wall of text lol.  Exactly this.  Incorporate the gun into the theme of the character and give these potions a theme and mechanics tied to the character. Maybe create different potions from skills that make shroud behave differently.  But in a nutshell, 1000% agree with you and that's all I was saying about Harbringer.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Golvellius.7856

[Loules.8601]

2 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

OBVIOUSLY, I'm going to wait and see what they have for us.  However, none of the rumored stuff gives me any hope.  I'll take all the crow you guys can serve up if I'm wrong, but after playing the Harbringer in beta and fumbling with my "pirate" for a decade...I've not much confidence that they "get" it.

 

Arena introduced warrior (?) teaser - pistol, like in leaks, but... this pistol on teaser - is a gunblade, so maybe it can be something unorthodox with thieves (if it's really some sort of "wand") too.

[Golvellius.7856]

1 hour ago, Loules.8601 said:

Arena introduced warrior (?) teaser - pistol, like in leaks, but... this pistol on teaser - is a gunblade, so maybe it can be something unorthodox with thieves (if it's really some sort of "wand") too.

YEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. 🤤

 

Gunblade warrior? ~Emphatic nodding~ Though, I'm cautiously optimistic...because I felt the same way about a Necro/Dark Caster with a pistol.  It turned out to be a basic alchemist with a gun...and maybe not really an alchemist, but just a dude running around with potions in his pockets shooting a gun.  But let's not backtrack and beat the horse again...

 

If that is a warrior, it's unorthodox in the classic sense...but it makes TOO much sense considering manga/anime/Asian fantasy.  Gunblades are a definitive thing and they've been a thing for a long time.  I dig the Necro animation that turns a staff into a scythe and the thought of them doing that to produce a gunblade effect with the warrior...!?  I might just lose it. lol I went through the base game, 0-80, with a Hammer warrior and really enjoyed him.  I'd love to dust him off.  He's been nothing more than a crafting mule since HoT.  Man, Greatsword Reaper really bossed my account and kept this game alive for me.

 

(Side note for anyone wondering how much I love/am dedicated to this game: In addition to every character sans Mage, I also have every crafting profession maxed out short of the legendary grind.)

[Geoff Fey.1035]

20 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

manga/anime/Asian fantasy.  Gunblades are a definitive thing and they've been a thing for a long time

Gunblades (and axes) existed in real life too. They weren't practical, but neither were lantern-shields (those Italians man). I'm so hyped for the next teaser (this week)/reveal on the 17th

[RobinotX.1604]

I am curious about the final feeling of the specs. The first three where so so for me. But I also was quite new in the game again so that could be a reason why I thought it felt like that as I wasnt used to the classes anymore after my long absence in the game.

That said I somehow have a feeling we will see a Mursaat like thing for Engineer.

[genjonah.1253]

4 hours ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

I am curious about the final feeling of the specs. The first three where so so for me. But I also was quite new in the game again so that could be a reason why I thought it felt like that as I wasnt used to the classes anymore after my long absence in the game.

That said I somehow have a feeling we will see a Mursaat like thing for Engineer.

Ooooh as someone who adores Mursaat (and really the only complaint I had about LWS3 was killing off Lazarus in an instance instead of giving him the raid fight he deserved) I have to ask you to please expand

[RobinotX.1604]

10 hours ago, genjonah.1253 said:

Ooooh as someone who adores Mursaat (and really the only complaint I had about LWS3 was killing off Lazarus in an instance instead of giving him the raid fight he deserved) I have to ask you to please expand

 

When they were talking about EoD and how they made a timeline to write down everything that happened that could have an effect on Cantha. I can see two things that could have an effect one it as well:

 

1. The explosion of the Bloodstone in Maguuma Jungle
2. The death of Lazarus

For a while now a lot of Engineer players wanted to have a Golemancer like Espec. Now we are going to Cantha which is all about the Jade. We already know that for example Elder Dragons have eaten magic of Gods etc. I can see the same happening towards the Jade. Jade absorbed some of the magic of the big happenings around the world and that is how certain things are now possible as well.

I think that Engineers will actually get an Espec that is similar towards the Mursaat ability to create Jade Constructs. So either we go and get a Pet like mechanic or we go the minion route (or both who knows). That said which weapon would fit the Engineer if they would go "Mursaat" is hard to say. I guess Staff or Scepter or something like that, haha.

[Foxy.5319]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DdvsHDbCJg

[Eddy.7051]

Vindicator Likes

- The name sounds good. Per definition of the name, I wonder if in-game lore will show how these two legends "cleared someone of blame or suspicion." Maybe it is simply referring to being "justified/vindicated" in killing Shiro, but nobody seemed to blame or criticize these legends for killing Shiro in the first place.

- Two legends in one legendary stance is interesting and unique. I hope this feels distinct enough from Kalla summoning her warband members.

- Greatsword is a solid choice for a Revenant weapon. Reused greatsword animations are resourceful and accessible for players who do not play every profession. For example, Revenant players who do not play Necromancer can now enjoy the Gravedigger animation.

- The Vindicator symbol shows duality which fits nicely for the dual legends.

- Modifying dodge feels appropriate for Revenant since they always had a visually different dodge involving phasing in and out of the mists.

 

Vindicator Dislikes

- Archemorus and Viktor seem a little too on the nose for Canthan legends, and they seem too closely related to the existing Shiro legend. We will not get many more elite specs after EoD (we may get no more elite specs after EoD), and I wish we could have branched out a bit more with our legend diversity. We now not only have 3 human legends, but all 3 human legends are Canthan men. Asura and Norn are still missing a legend related to their people or culture. The most recent fractal has lore hinting at Canthan Norn. Norn's spirits of the wild can also tie in with Canthan lore, for example channeling the legend of the Spirit of the Kraken or another legendary aquatic beast in the Jade Sea.

- Once again, this elite spec legend has heroes rather than villains. Revenant was originally advertised as someone who would channel both heroes and villains. They had an edgy, jagged, dark knight aesthetic. After years of elite specs only gaining heroes for legends, Revenants are gradually losing their edge. I was hoping the ratio of heroes to villains would be about 50-50 but we're now at 75-25.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Eddy.7051

[Woop S.7851]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:06 AM, Sentient Anomaly.9473 said:

Hello everyone!

Please use this thread to discuss Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons gameplay and the new elite specializations. 

Elementalist Elite Spec (Brainstorming #2): Artillery damage support 😋

• Wield the active element (floats beside the player) or a combination of any 2 (Air, Fire, Earth or Water)
• All 4 elements have their own 'charge-up' bar (like a battery) 🔋 or for simplicity & balance:
• A hybrid of 2 elements wielded in 1 hand (Fire + Air) or (Earth + Water) to match the Yin and Yang ☯️ theme for Cantha
• After casting (at range) with the floating element (or hybrid element), it charges the elements' battery (similar to Druids' astral force or Warriors' Adrenaline)
• On Full charge of the elemental batteries: player gets a close-ranged melee damage 'Hammer buff'? ⚒️ They can leap/teleport in and deal high damage with great speed @ target
• Dealing close range buffed damage exhausts the elements' batteries, player can then leap/teleport back out (utility skills maybe?)
• With different weapons (not just hammer), there'd be different damage/effects/combos/blasts based on the active elemental attunements (or hybrid of any 2, 3?)
• To balance this elite spec (as damage will be very high): maybe the math for vitality, armor, or cast range can be nudged in utilities & traits? (much easier as the profession already has light armor)

*Example mechanics/reference video below (skipping the ads)

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Woop S.7851

[Golvellius.7856]

Am feeling the Bladesworn...! 

I'll be getting my Charr ready to come off the bench. This looks promising.

 

[Dante.1508]

I'm probably not the target Audience but none of these new classes appeal to me.. Even that bladesworn FF8 knock off.

 

Why couldn't we have had completely new weapons added like fistblades or even spears/tridents on land...

Edited September 17, 2021 by Dante.1508

[Gomes.5643]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:01 AM, Dante.1508 said:

I'm probably not the target Audience but none of these new classes appeal to me.. Even that bladesworn FF8 knock off.

 

Why couldn't we have had completely new weapons added like fistblades or even spears/tridents on land...

Because they then need to model different skins for it I suppose .....

 

 

I am quite glad that the new bunch of elite specs seem to be much more cohesive in design than the first ones ...... so I am still quite hopeful for the classes I actually play ^^.

[Kalendil Istarion.4103]

My two cents about the elite specializations.

First, I would like to say that I love the various approach that developers had done to the nine archtypes along these years. I really love every different concept for every profession.

But I don't really like how it has been delivered to us except some of them. I would like to be in a pvp match and see a character coming to me and don't know who is coming. Oh, yes, an elementalist... he/she has a dagger but.. will he/she be a condition dps, a healer, a tank? Oh, is he/she a tempest/weaver/catalyst/core? Then I see them perform a overload. Ok, dagger/tempest. And again, i would like not to know with that two facts if he/she is a condition/power dps, a healer or a tank. Same in every other aspect of the game.

I think every class and elite specialization (even core) should be able to perform every role (or at least three of them) without many problems. The best example I can think about I am pointing is Firebrand: healer, tank, condition dps, quickness support. Maybe ranger (as druid or soulbeast) and revenant (as herald or renegade) are quite near too.

I think this could be done throughout a carefully traits design.

So, in these new specializations, I think some mechanics are too attached to the specialization weapon. When I see catalyst, I dislike how hammer is the way to take out those circular projectiles.

TL:DR version: please, try to make more versatile specializations not too dependent on chosen weapons.

Sorry for my English, I am not a native speaker.

[Dante.1508]

15 hours ago, Gomes.5643 said:

Because they then need to model different skins for it I suppose .....

 

 

I am quite glad that the new bunch of elite specs seem to be much more cohesive in design than the first ones ...... so I am still quite hopeful for the classes I actually play ^^.

Well spears and tridents had skins for years. and animations etc.

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

i think i'm going to try the new Ele and Warrios Elite specialiazition. Both are my old mains since release and i never played them again since then. Willbender is very underwhelming so maybe i give the other two a chance.
Rev wasnt that exciting

Beta is from Tuesday to Friday? i'm gone for work from tomorrow until Thursday maybe Friday 😭

[Dante.1508]

I just want a viable and less clunky Revenant Ranged option.. Or bows to be overhauled, they are beyond weird to use on Revenant.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Dante.1508

[ledernierrempart.6871]

just played the new elementalist. it is weaker than any other elem specialisation. hammer skills don't have much synergy between them because of  too different range. the worst is the new sphere mecanism. it should stick to your character instead of putting it somewhere and thats it. but all this to just charge a boon aoe is very underwhelming.

hammer has one very good cc in thunder element but the fact that you are very close range with less mobility and survivability than with  weaver makes it hard to survive.
 

in short, a worst weaver with some decent tankiness but lower mobility, lower damage, lower condi, less dodge, and overall slower.
the new 3 spell on hammer force you to constantly change element to maximize it which is counter intuitive with how some spells have slow charge.

so far, not impressed.

[Caid.4932]

I kind of feel like pretty much every heal skill, utility and elite needs a buff. Just find myself consistently going back to core stuff on every class. I feel like every elite spec should have an absolute minimum of one of these skills that they'd be crazy to skip and should be a permanent fixture on their bar. It just makes it feel like theres better variety between the elites. I find myself looking for excuses to slot some of the new stuff and not finding any in most cases.

Harbinger Elixirs are the one exception weirdly enough. Using them to stop my life force getting chewed up on healing was surprisingly valuable. But yeah cant see myself getting any value from the eles new options, not too convinced by revenant legend, found the willbenders options pretty poor, which wont compete against the cores options. Virtuoso's were just a bit too niche in most cases - a boring ether feast or whatever was better 90% of the time, cooldowns felt too long in most cases too.

[xoxin.8326]

Only spec I'm particularly into is the revenant one. The warrior one looked promising, but I'm not really into how it plays (though it does have some cool ideas). 

[WinterSolstice.7829]

So I think the concept of an endurance based attack is neat, especially the high jump attack for Vindicator, but I kinda would like it more optional than that so it feels more traveling savvy. Like if it was its own button to use up my whole endurance bar for an attack/dodge, instead of all my dodge options when I want to avoid taking a hit so I can just bolt away and get on my mount or something to avoid combat. Otherwise there's little to no dodging without trying to do damage to something as an option, and it moves much slower than a regular dodge. I've also played around with the dodge-jump potential nature to realize after one shift of platform recognized in the game it'll hard drop you regardless if it's a short jump distance doable to a normal jump or not. Just outside of a planned encounter, I cannot imagine someone wants this high leap ability besides showing it off.