Create a WvW map solely for players working on their PvE (ie. legendaries/dailies/warclaw mounts/etc.)

[Ronin.4501]

You might assume I'm a PvE player requesting this, but I'm actually requesting this as a WvW player.

 

WvW seems to be filling up with players who are solely in the game-mode because Anet has forced them to come out to work on their legendaries and warclaw mounts and dailies, and these players are constantly asking for the WvW-players to help them although they have absolutely no intention of actually sticking around in the game-mode or actually participating in WvW outside of working towards their PvE goals.

 

It's incredibly frustrating to think you have an equal number of allies alongside you, but the moment the enemy engages, they either scatter to the winds or focus on capping the camp/capping the sentry while the fight occurs just mere feet away.

 

Give these players a small, plain map that doesn't reward pips, doesn't reward WxP, doesn't yield WvW badges, has an eternally paper (T0) keep, tower, camp and a sentry.  And should they find that they actually enjoy fighting enemy players, then they are free to come over to the actual WvW maps and engage.  I realize we already have EotM, but there are enough actual WvW players there now that the arenas have been reworked.  Give the PvE players a "PvE" WvW map.

 

*Realized I neglected the whole Gift of Battle reward track.  Reward players with a GoB after 10/15/20 hours on the map.

 

WvW has enough PvE in it already without bringing out scores of players who hate the game-mode but are still forced to join it.  Stop punishing both the PvE players who hate the game-mode and at the same time punishing the WvW players who have to deal with them.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Ronin.4501

[Chaba.5410]

I think you'd be surprised to learn that those who are scattering are more than likely to be actual WvW players on squishy roaming builds and can only cloud around and have to kite a lot.  PvE players who don't know what they're doing in WvW generally just stay standing on a point to try to cap it or they solo yolo into a group and get wiped easily.  They're not prone to having the awareness of positioning and knowing when a fight is lost ahead of time that WvW players gain through experience.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

Well, if you ask me, People aren't bad because of game mode they play, but because they don't understand how the game works.  Sure there's a lot of crappy pvers that come in but there are also some pretty awful wvw players that I see often too. Incidentally, the later dies so often to npcs that I wonder if they need to learn how to pve. 😉

 

Honestly one ought to applaud them for trying WvW at all. If you don't believe me just read the QQ about having to do WvW or w/e in the general subforum. for an optional skin that doesn't even give better stats. Or don't (probably better)

 

And of course people have to start somewhere.  Of course 95% of therm will never come back, but the 5% could matter, and plenty of people started from just doing dailies and such.

 

And finally, you have to have your own awareness and people aren't going to always take fights unless you specifically communicate to them as such. For example, if I'm trying to get to my group, I'm probably not going to help you chase some person.

 

As a side note, I wouldn't mind if reward tracks went faster though.

 

Edit: This forum software is bad.

Edited August 7, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ronin.4501]

30 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I think you'd be surprised to learn that those who are scattering are more than likely to be actual WvW players on squishy roaming builds and can only cloud around and have to kite a lot.  PvE players who don't know what they're doing in WvW generally just stay standing on a point to try to cap it or they solo yolo into a group and get wiped easily.  They're not prone to having the awareness of positioning and knowing when a fight is lost ahead of time that WvW players gain through experience.

I agree with you to a point; there are always new players who are trying to learn the game-mode but haven't quite figured out how things work.  I have no problem with those players and have even tried to teach them a few things (more specific to roaming).  But I'm more referring to the players who, in addition to what I've mentioned above, are constantly asking in Map/Team chat for help with this or that because, as they often readily admit, they are in WvW for their legendary/warclaw and have no intention of sticking around once they've accomplished that goal.  I'd rather remove those players from the map and get more players in who are actually interested in the game-mode.

[lotus.5672]

hahahaha

no

[Caedmon.6798]

Hahahahaha WHAT
😁

 

[DeanBB.4268]

Well, if they add such a map, but the rewards are still better in regular WvW, guess where people will go, so long as there is no queue?

[Ronin.4501]

4 hours ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Well, if they add such a map, but the rewards are still better in regular WvW, guess where people will go, so long as there is no queue?

I'm talking about the players who aren't in WvW for any such rewards.  They need X or Z for their legendary or warclaw, and once they've gotten said item/achievement they're never coming back.  I suppose with the dailies that might still be an issue (and I'd almost prefer that Anet removed WvW dailies entirely, but at the same time the rewards are so poor in WvW that a lot of players probably rely on that 2g as they'd otherwise get almost nothing).

 

I just think the way Anet has gone about it is poorly designed, and this is the only thing I could really come up with to separate the players who WANT to be in WvW vs the players who are FORCED to be in WvW.  After all, map completion used to require clearing all the WvW maps as well as Central Tyria, but Anet did away with that.  Why not do the same with legendaries (and even warclaw for that matter; let players acquire the warclaw in PvE...and if they decide to come out to WvW, all they need to do is worry about the masteries at that point)?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Ronin.4501

[Ronin.4501]

I'm starting to realize that a majority of the WvW players actually want the PvE-focused players out in WvW so they can have easy kills to call themselves "good".

[joneirikb.7506]

• If you're a pve player and wants the rewards, you'll go where you get the rewards the fastest (And that's zerging in ebg). The only exception are the ones so against PvP in all forms that they refuse to join WvW, unless said training map did not have actual PvP enabled. So making a separate map isn't really going to do much to encourage PvE players to "stay away".
• ANet specifically wants people to play together, including in WvW, and the entire mode is built up around players of all types and skill levels together, and still being able to help each others. Trying to push certain types of players to specific maps is not something ANet is ever going to do, it goes against one of their core design principles for the entire game.
• Most WvW players usually wants more population (and that means PvE players) to recruit, to learn/teach, to gank, etc. And all of that is easier if they're on the same map, playing the same game/mode as everyone else. And if you have X "pve players" then the opposing worlds have X such as well. 

 

So your suggestion basically sums up to splitting the player-base, and basically make a WXP rank requirement (or some other similar threshold) to be allowed to go to the "real" map. (With the real reward, real experience, etc). And that's just going to make the experience miserable for 90% of the players (WvW, PvE and PvP) that wants to try the mode. For one thing it would be pretty quiet quickly, fewer players joining, and no "pve players" to pad the numbers to make the mode look lively.

With how difficult it is to recruit new players to enjoy WvW, and with how much the mode keep slowly losing players, you really don't want to strangle what little recruitment we got left.

[Caedmon.6798]

1 hour ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I'm starting to realize that a majority of the WvW players actually want the PvE-focused players out in WvW so they can have easy kills to call themselves "good".

Bwhahaha. 😁

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I'm starting to realize that a majority of the WvW players actually want the PvE-focused players out in WvW so they can have easy kills to call themselves "good".

Yes, and I am not ashamed of this.

 

The week when the Warclaw was released was the most fun week I ever had in WvW.  Why?  It had a bunch of people who had no idea what they were doing running about wildly or crowding around a tag.  Me, playing pre-nerf Herald, went from being a mediocre but serviceable player into a god walking amongst mere mortals.  I was throwing players around like they were ragdolls, winning 1v3s and ripping entire squads to shreds with devastating hammer blows.  You won't believe the utter joy and ego stroking that I get when a group of 3 people runs up a hill, recognizes me from our previous fight, and then nopes out of there.  It was highly active, there was constant fighting, and there was great loot to be had.

 

The release of the armory had something similar happen, but to a smaller degree.  A lot of new players have come to WvW now that legendary armor duplicates itself across all characters.  I've actually won 1v3 fights on my buxom celestial weaver build.  It's a character I designed to have an overpowering presence, being a max-height norn with flashy lightshow powers.  Granted, I've had incredible fun and long mirror matches with skilled players, and it looks like fireworks.  But, I also like overpowering a small crowd of people with fire and explosions.  

 

It's not all bad.  I don't win 1v3's against competently made builds, PVE or not.  If I charged into a group of 3 full glass berserker players, I'd be dead in an instant.  I should know, because my old herald build was just berserker with defensive traits.  No, the players who do so little damage and yet are so frail are probably running an random-gear build, which is something that you shouldn't do in GW2.  One of the few feedback mechanisms for learning that your build is bad is getting stomped into the ground in a 3v1 by an obnoxiously gorgeous elementalist.  It's cathartic in a way, because I have to deal with these kinds of builds while doing training for raids, fractals, world events, etc.  I can take out my frustrations and get loot at the same time  Hopefully, after losing badly, some of these players will think that they're doing something wrong and start looking at their builds with a critical eye.

[Ronin.4501]

2 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

• If you're a pve player and wants the rewards, you'll go where you get the rewards the fastest (And that's zerging in ebg). The only exception are the ones so against PvP in all forms that they refuse to join WvW, unless said training map did not have actual PvP enabled. So making a separate map isn't really going to do much to encourage PvE players to "stay away".
• ANet specifically wants people to play together, including in WvW, and the entire mode is built up around players of all types and skill levels together, and still being able to help each others. Trying to push certain types of players to specific maps is not something ANet is ever going to do, it goes against one of their core design principles for the entire game.
• Most WvW players usually wants more population (and that means PvE players) to recruit, to learn/teach, to gank, etc. And all of that is easier if they're on the same map, playing the same game/mode as everyone else. And if you have X "pve players" then the opposing worlds have X such as well. 

 

So your suggestion basically sums up to splitting the player-base, and basically make a WXP rank requirement (or some other similar threshold) to be allowed to go to the "real" map. (With the real reward, real experience, etc). And that's just going to make the experience miserable for 90% of the players (WvW, PvE and PvP) that wants to try the mode. For one thing it would be pretty quiet quickly, fewer players joining, and no "pve players" to pad the numbers to make the mode look lively.

With how difficult it is to recruit new players to enjoy WvW, and with how much the mode keep slowly losing players, you really don't want to strangle what little recruitment we got left.

 

Every point you're making is completely valid, and a year or two ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly.  And I suppose it also largely depends on what server you're on, and also whether you're on an EU server or a NA server (as a player on an NA server I get the impression that the EU servers don't encounter this problem quite as often).

 

But it just seems that in the past year especially, our server (and the servers we've been linked to) have been inundated with players who are ONLY out in WvW because they're working towards their PvE goals, and will tell you as much when they ask for help...going so far as to say they hate WvW and the play style it encourages.  And I realize this is Anet's method of trying to garner more interest in the game-mode, but forcing players into a game-mode they don't enjoy doesn't strike me as the best method.  Players who want to PvE want to PvE, and players who want to PvP want to PvP.  I'm by no means saying my suggestion was perfect, but speaking for myself, I want to both fight with and against players who WANT to be in this game-mode...not the players who run at the first sign of an enemy...I personally find it very boring to kill a player with 1-2 hits because they have no clue what they're doing.

 

Hopefully Alliances will do more to create a more balanced setting (in terms of population) across the game-mode so that we don't have to rely on generating interest in the game-mode to attract PvErs, but as I've stated before in many other posts, I don't have much (if any) faith in Anet at this point...

[Ronin.4501]

5 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Yes, and I am not ashamed of this.

 

The week when the Warclaw was released was the most fun week I ever had in WvW.  Why?  It had a bunch of people who had no idea what they were doing running about wildly or crowding around a tag.  Me, playing pre-nerf Herald, went from being a mediocre but serviceable player into a god walking amongst mere mortals.  I was throwing players around like they were ragdolls, winning 1v3s and ripping entire squads to shreds with devastating hammer blows.  You won't believe the utter joy and ego stroking that I get when a group of 3 people runs up a hill, recognizes me from our previous fight, and then nopes out of there.  It was highly active, there was constant fighting, and there was great loot to be had.

 

The release of the armory had something similar happen, but to a smaller degree.  A lot of new players have come to WvW now that legendary armor duplicates itself across all characters.  I've actually won 1v3 fights on my buxom celestial weaver build.  It's a character I designed to have an overpowering presence, being a max-height norn with flashy lightshow powers.  Granted, I've had incredible fun and long mirror matches with skilled players, and it looks like fireworks.  But, I also like overpowering a small crowd of people with fire and explosions.  

 

It's not all bad.  I don't win 1v3's against competently made builds, PVE or not.  If I charged into a group of 3 full glass berserker players, I'd be dead in an instant.  I should know, because my old herald build was just berserker with defensive traits.  No, the players who do so little damage and yet are so frail are probably running an random-gear build, which is something that you shouldn't do in GW2.  One of the few feedback mechanisms for learning that your build is bad is getting stomped into the ground in a 3v1 by an obnoxiously gorgeous elementalist.  It's cathartic in a way, because I have to deal with these kinds of builds while doing training for raids, fractals, world events, etc.  I can take out my frustrations and get loot at the same time  Hopefully, after losing badly, some of these players will think that they're doing something wrong and start looking at their builds with a critical eye.

 

But the thing is you're not the type of player I was referring to with that comment.  You yourself said you're probably an average player, and you're not usually going to win a 1v3 fight.  Those moments where you did win a 1v3 were the exceptions.  I'm talking about the players who will only play in EBG (which in my opinion is where the majority of the newer players congregate) and brag about kills, but in effect the players they're killing offer about as much of a challenge as npcs do in PvE (where I'm currently kitten around on my ranger, which I still have barely played despite making the character almost 9 years ago, and my pet kills most of the npcs before I even get to fire a 2nd skill). 

 

I myself miss the days where zerg-busting was actually a thing, and a squad of 20 (if skilled enough) could take down a squad of 50.  Anet's manipulation of boons and boonsharing has all but erased that type of game-play.  I want a challenge.  I want to square off against the best players, and if I lose I have to make adjustments to get better.  I honestly don't understand the fun of killing a player with 1-2 hits before they can even react, because there's no challenge to it.  It's like taking pride in winning a console game only because you used a cheat code to make yourself invulnerable through the entire game.  And I'm slowly starting to realize that my viewpoint is very much in the minority in this game-mode (and probably in most console games and MMOs in general sadly).  C'est la vie!

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I'm starting to realize that a majority of the WvW players actually want the PvE-focused players out in WvW so they can have easy kills to call themselves "good".

I'm starting to realize that a majority of the PvE players actually want the WvW-focused players out in PvE so they can have more dps to call themselves "good".

 

Does that sound stupid to you or is it a reasonable assumption?

[urd.8306]

Can I get all my pve legendaries in roaming then? If not > your wish is declined!

[Teratus.2859]

Outside of the gift of battle are there many reasons to go to WvW just for legendaries?
Excluding the WvW specific Armour and Backpiece of course which are supposed to be obtained by actually playing the mode.

I'm just talking about legendary weapons here.. the gift of battle is the only thing that comes to my mind.
Frankly I wish anet would just make that thing tradable on the trading post, that would be enough for a lot of people to say "great, I never have to go to WvW again"
They removed the WvW maps from the map completion requirement to get the gift of Exploration years ago which to this day was a great change so I don't see why making the gifts of battle tradable would be that bad.
WvW players would get something easily farmed in abundance to sell and PvE'ers get to avoid a game mode they don't like.
Anet could even set the minimum trade price on them to be a couple gold too so that they would always be profitable to sell, even with an abundance being listed.

As far as the armour goes though.. I would think that since the PvE variant is locked behind raiding which is highly exclusionary to a lot of PvE players then many of them might see the WvW set as probably the easiest one for them to obtain.. so that could be why some go there just to get that.

[XenesisII.1540]

Just put pips in eotm, let the wvw lite players have their playground again.

[Vidit.7108]

PVE player here
Let me buy the Gift of Battle for badges of honor like in the good old days and I won't have to spend very long there trying to get one anymore. You can even time gate it to a once a week purchase or something if you're worried about it being too easy for WvW players to get it for their legendaries.

Putting me on a small map where i go in circles for 10 hours for no reward besides the GoB is not going to make me do that over bothering all of you on the main maps.

[alcopaul.2156]

before you assume that PvE players are bad, try to tag up without Discord..

 

.. commanding on pure Berserker Armor+Weapon+Rings/Backitem/Accessory Warrior...

 

and tell me your experience after doing so..

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[Twilightzone.7452]

Seems to be a lack of communication. Unless you know the person, a simple say chat hey want to fight this person goes a long way. Plus you got some many people the get hurt that you ruined a 1v1, can see why maybe a new player might not want to ruin the fight.

 

I do not see forcing PVE players to do some WvW to get legendarily stuff that all just skins in the end (ASC is the same stats). WvW has to go do some PVE to get some of the gear. Its an MMO, making you play all game modes to get the fancy end game armour seems about par for most MMO.

Lets make another map for PVE that amounts to lets afk for X amount of hours to get GOB seems counter productive. If people going to complain how X is hard to get or I dont like it, well good news you dont need anything legendary and can go make ASC Armour or weapons. Builds and and stats are static anyways until a new patch comes out. 

[SweetPotato.7456]

That map is call Edge of the Mist. 

Be helpful, help them help yourself, they get the warclam and can go on their merry way faster. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[joneirikb.7506]

7 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

 

Every point you're making is completely valid, and a year or two ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly.  And I suppose it also largely depends on what server you're on, and also whether you're on an EU server or a NA server (as a player on an NA server I get the impression that the EU servers don't encounter this problem quite as often).

 

But it just seems that in the past year especially, our server (and the servers we've been linked to) have been inundated with players who are ONLY out in WvW because they're working towards their PvE goals, and will tell you as much when they ask for help...going so far as to say they hate WvW and the play style it encourages.  And I realize this is Anet's method of trying to garner more interest in the game-mode, but forcing players into a game-mode they don't enjoy doesn't strike me as the best method.  Players who want to PvE want to PvE, and players who want to PvP want to PvP.  I'm by no means saying my suggestion was perfect, but speaking for myself, I want to both fight with and against players who WANT to be in this game-mode...not the players who run at the first sign of an enemy...I personally find it very boring to kill a player with 1-2 hits because they have no clue what they're doing.

 

Hopefully Alliances will do more to create a more balanced setting (in terms of population) across the game-mode so that we don't have to rely on generating interest in the game-mode to attract PvErs, but as I've stated before in many other posts, I don't have much (if any) faith in Anet at this point...

That's actually a good sign for the mode, if more people are joining, even if they're only there for the "rewards" it means that more people are trying WvW. Recruitment is mostly a numbers game.

The entire game was built up around that you should do a bit of everything, and this was especially obvious in the legendary weapons which require you to play the entire game. Personally I believe that anyone that hates WvW doesn't deserve a Legendary weapon, same with anyone that refuses to touch PvE.

But the majority of the GW2 player-base is becoming more and more reward/goal focused, and thus more and more toxic when they don't get what they want (like having to go to WvW for the Gift). And Reward/Goal driven people generally speaking isn't going to like WvW, which is probably the most sandbox mode in the entire game. Which brings us back to recruitment being a numbers game, we need more players in to make a few stick.

---

Now, what you want/need/like, to be able to play in a map/area/mode with other dedicated wvw players. I suspect the best way to accomplish that is to organise events for it, stuff like the old GvG fights, or try to reach out to different servers/guilds and arrange meeting at specific place at reset (for ex) to have some good fights. But that's something that has to be player driven, as ANet won't do that. (After all, WvW to them is a PvP version of open world tyria zerg)

If ANet was willing to put resources and time into it, I think changing the maps around a bit could be a good way to solve this.

 

•     Keep EBG as it is.
•     Make a new map that is basically a circle with all the objectives on the ring, and impassable terrain on both sides of the ring. Make towers and keeps both block off access further so you ahve to at least break open the walls to go past them. This will make the map work like a constant 2 front war/siege. And players that would like constant action without reading the map would likely gravitate towards it. Still leaving some strategy with sending players to the other front etc.
•     A single roamer map with some kind of mechanic or penalty for when too many players gathers up in the same spot (to force the zergs to stay away, or they will come). That focuses more on a lot of smaller objectives, and probably lots of sneaky movement spots, traps, like a jungle.

This would probably be enough variety that most players would be able to find a map they like, and should help at least somewhat with not forcing every type of player together into EBG together. While also gathering people into fewer maps overall, making the EotM overflow also work for reset etc for the few times a week when it's needed.

This gets rid of the BorderLand system, and it's moronic lock forcing 3 identical/similar maps. Something I've wished to see gone for years now.

---

World-Restructure/Alliances isn't going to do anything about this per say. But it might make it easier for players to self organise and make arrangements between themselves. So players interested in more organised/planned play, might gather up into guilds, alliances, or discord servers. And use those to plan skrims and fights etc.

[Gorani.7205]

Can we please stop creating "WvW reformation ideas", that divide the small player base of WvW even more?

 

If we need anything, then it is to create player agency to contribute to a matchup. While large battles happening between two forces are unique to WvW, other aspects are needed and should contribute to a "world vs. world" format. That does include flipping camps, roam to find and kill flippers, scout, refresh siege etc.
While "I am here only for Gifts of Battle" players will be good at none of the things mentioned above, they can still contribute, if they are told how to (either by the game itself or experienced WvW players). I absolutely hate the experience of getting killed, just because I try to help a PvE player in a small scale fight (because they see a chance to run away, now that I am there), but sometimes those can be allies for the next hour and have perhaps had some fun while playing with a more experienced player.

 

I am very worried about Alliances coming to GW2, not because I want everything to stay as it is, but because I fear that Anet gets influenced by the very vocal (and still very small) WvW community that thinks that zerg vs. zerg is the type everyone needs to play and support for WvW, alienating the "GoB players" and current roaming players so much that it will leave WvW in an even worse state than it is now.

[Ronin.4501]

6 hours ago, diomache.9246 said:

Can I get all my pve legendaries in roaming then? If not > your wish is declined!

 

I roam 90% of the time and have 3 sets of legendary armor and 4 legendary weapons, so I would say the answer is yes.

 

5 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Outside of the gift of battle are there many reasons to go to WvW just for legendaries?
Excluding the WvW specific Armour and Backpiece of course which are supposed to be obtained by actually playing the mode.

I'm just talking about legendary weapons here.. the gift of battle is the only thing that comes to my mind.
Frankly I wish anet would just make that thing tradable on the trading post, that would be enough for a lot of people to say "great, I never have to go to WvW again"
They removed the WvW maps from the map completion requirement to get the gift of Exploration years ago which to this day was a great change so I don't see why making the gifts of battle tradable would be that bad.
WvW players would get something easily farmed in abundance to sell and PvE'ers get to avoid a game mode they don't like.
Anet could even set the minimum trade price on them to be a couple gold too so that they would always be profitable to sell, even with an abundance being listed.

As far as the armour goes though.. I would think that since the PvE variant is locked behind raiding which is highly exclusionary to a lot of PvE players then many of them might see the WvW set as probably the easiest one for them to obtain.. so that could be why some go there just to get that.

 

I would be for this 100%.  In regards to the armor, as a player who plays in WvW 95% of the time (with the other 5% being beetle-racing lol), I'll admit I know nothing about obtaining the legendary armor via the PvE or PvP methods.

 

2 hours ago, alcopaul.2156 said:

before you assume that PvE players are bad, try to tag up without Discord..

 

.. commanding on pure Berserker Armor+Weapon+Rings/Backitem/Accessory Warrior...

 

and tell me your experience after doing so..

 

 

I've tagged up quite often on roaming builds w/o getting into Discord.  The results have been...mixed.  If you have players who know the basics of WvW, the fights (against equal numbers anyways) have been decent.  If you have players who don't know what they're doing, I'm sometimes the only one left standing 10 seconds into the fight.  And if a player new to the game-mode is willing to learn, I'm more than happy to share what I know.  But as I said in the original post, a lot of players have no interest in learning the game-mode, but are only out there to obtain their rewards.

 

3 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

PVE player here
Let me buy the Gift of Battle for badges of honor like in the good old days and I won't have to spend very long there trying to get one anymore. You can even time gate it to a once a week purchase or something if you're worried about it being too easy for WvW players to get it for their legendaries.

Putting me on a small map where i go in circles for 10 hours for no reward besides the GoB is not going to make me do that over bothering all of you on the main maps.

 

Again, I'd be for this 100%.  But players have been asking for this from Anet for years with no success.  To be fair, I doubt they'd ever implement my idea, or the vast majority of other ideas expressed here either.  I honestly don't think Anet really knows what they want to do with this game-mode anymore.  The 2+ year delay for Alliances is evidence of that.

 

1 hour ago, Twilightzone.7452 said:

I do not see forcing PVE players to do some WvW to get legendarily stuff that all just skins in the end (ASC is the same stats). WvW has to go do some PVE to get some of the gear. Its an MMO, making you play all game modes to get the fancy end game armour seems about par for most MMO.

 

Except that legendary gear is no longer just about the skins.  It now affords a player to swap stats at will, and even more recently, affords a player to put that gear on all their various characters, making it FAR MORE VALUABLE than just a skin.  In fact, I rather dislike most of the legendary skins.  But so long as guilds and commanders require meta builds and swap up those builds on a regular basis, having legendary gear with access to all stat combinations has almost become a necessity.