I'm upset about Harbinger.

[Shroud.2307]

Don't get me wrong, some of the Traits in particular look absurdly strong, and I do like the visuals and skills on Harbinger Shroud.

But the concept of reducing max health just does not sit well with me. Necro's defense is heavily reliant on soaking damage and creating areas of denial - punishing the enemy for sticking to the Necro for too long/at the wrong time.

Although Harbinger looks like it has some extreme potential for damage, it's still going to be incredibly vulnerable to burst. I mean, thinking from a PvP or WvW perspective, imagine how easy it's going to be to +1 a Harbinger that's ramped up some Blight. 

The risk seems higher than the reward to me.
I don't think Harbinger looks weak per-se, I just think the risks should be reduced to better balance with the rewards. 

[Tobias.8632]

If you want to be a tanky spec you have three other whole modes of play, core reaper and scourge. I've been asking since launch to add a high skill high risk high reward option that removed the "overpowered" death shroud defence and allowd this class to be an ele-style glass cannon and I finally got what I wanted.

[Shroud.2307]

11 minutes ago, Tobias.8632 said:

If you want to be a tanky spec you have three other whole modes of play, core reaper and scourge. I've been asking since launch to add a high skill high risk high reward option that removed the "overpowered" death shroud defence and allowd this class to be an ele-style glass cannon and I finally got what I wanted.

It's not about being tanky, it's about having the defenses to survive a +1 long enough to retaliate. Why do you think no one plays zerk Ele or Thief? DH gets a pass because it can use Trapper runes, has high Block uptime and punishes you for getting near it. Harbinger doesn't look like it's gonna have that.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

*coughs in Berserker*

[Wintermute.5408]

2 hours ago, Tobias.8632 said:

If you want to be a tanky spec you have three other whole modes of play, core reaper and scourge. I've been asking since launch to add a high skill high risk high reward option that removed the "overpowered" death shroud defence and allowd this class to be an ele-style glass cannon and I finally got what I wanted.

Where's the skill though? Managing barrier uptime, planning your dodge recovery and rotating blocks - active defences - take skill. What's skilled about getting 1shot?

[Allarius.5670]

It is great that they can provide such a variety across the different specs available. The whole blight mechanic is the primary draw that is absolutely pulling me in. How cool is this mechanic and trying to figure out a way to properly play around it and get the most of the risk/reward?

[Atomnium.1532]

That's the whole problem here, blight is not a mechanic you "play around" but one that you just deal with, there is no blight reduction skill, no smart use of skill to mitigate its effect, no trait to decrease the drawback, no synergy with anything.

The only blight interraction in the entire kit is the first minor trait which is a +x% damage. 

Once again, look at the footage again, blight is just a health debuff for using shroud skills or elixir. They are not powerful enough to warrant this, not even remotely close, arguably even the best skill in the kit is just pistol 2.

 

I am absolutely in love with the spec, and I will play it as a main even if it's broken and useless like it seems like it's gonna be, but let's not pretend that the current iterraction is anywhere near a good state because it's new and shiny.

[lodjur.1284]

15 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Don't get me wrong, some of the Traits in particular look absurdly strong, and I do like the visuals and skills on Harbinger Shroud.

But the concept of reducing max health just does not sit well with me. Necro's defense is heavily reliant on soaking damage and creating areas of denial - punishing the enemy for sticking to the Necro for too long/at the wrong time.

Although Harbinger looks like it has some extreme potential for damage, it's still going to be incredibly vulnerable to burst. I mean, thinking from a PvP or WvW perspective, imagine how easy it's going to be to +1 a Harbinger that's ramped up some Blight. 

The risk seems higher than the reward to me.
I don't think Harbinger looks weak per-se, I just think the risks should be reduced to better balance with the rewards. 

Blight might have lower duration or only 1%/ stack outside of PvE.

 

Would make sense since even tmrw shroud got the unique/gamemode text.

 

With 25 sec and 2% it would essentially be unplayable in any PvP setting, which hopefully isn't the case. Outside of essentially 1 shot builds which the game hardly needs more of 

 

I do love the design of Harbinger but depending on the numbers on some stuff it might not be playable where and how I would like it to be. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[felincyriac.5981]

bruh the blight "reward" for pvp is 12.5% dmg inc at 25 stacks, good luck with that lmao

 

Blight was entirely mismanaged, I though we'd actually use blight in our kit or at least interact with it in a fun way but no...

 

May god have mercy on all harb pvp testers lol

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

14 hours ago, Atomnium.1532 said:

That's the whole problem here, blight is not a mechanic you "play around" but one that you just deal with, there is no blight reduction skill, no smart use of skill to mitigate its effect, no trait to decrease the drawback, no synergy with anything.

The only blight interraction in the entire kit is the first minor trait which is a +x% damage. 

Once again, look at the footage again, blight is just a health debuff for using shroud skills or elixir. They are not powerful enough to warrant this, not even remotely close, arguably even the best skill in the kit is just pistol 2.

 

I am absolutely in love with the spec, and I will play it as a main even if it's broken and useless like it seems like it's gonna be, but let's not pretend that the current iterraction is anywhere near a good state because it's new and shiny.

From just the look at it, I absolutely agree, that some of the elixirs feel extremely underwhelming.

Especially the stunbreak one.

 

It's strange to see, that none of the elixirs has good defensive boons on it.

 

The heal skill:

Extremely low healing and only gives 10% lifeforce and a bit of vigor.

 

we will have to see about the healing power coefficient.

Also we will have to see, if the passive health Regen scales with healing power and how much % of lifeforce the passive heal uses per tick.

If it's 1% per healing tick, that would be a net 7k heal over 10 seconds, which sounds decent.

 

Then we have a skill that only gives fury and 10 might.

 

One that gives quickness and swiftness

 

One consumes conditions for lifeforce and gives resolution 

 

And the stunbreak that gives resistance

Which also feels a bit underwhelming (maybe give it Regen or protection as well?)

 

 

And obviously the elite that gives every boon in the game, which is very strong.

 

BUT there's one thing I don't really understand. Cmc said that he has 37% boon duration.

 

But that would mean, that some of the boon durations would be pretty weird:

 

All 5 seconds boons: 5/1,37=3,65.

So it has to be either 3,5+1,37=6,85 or 4x1,37=5,48.

All 10 seconds boons: 10/1,37=7,3.

So it has to be either 7x1,37=9,6 or 7x1,37=10,28.

 

2,5 seconds of Quickness on trait: 2,5/1,37=1,82.

So it has to be either 1,5x1,37=2,06 or 2x1,37=2,74.

 

 

While I think that all the numbers are okay for pve, it scares me, that these skills are split for the pvp modes.

So they either get higher cooldowns or lower boonduration.

Considering that all of these skills, will take away 10% of your max health and boons are your only defense in this kit (one evade on weapon skill, slow regeneration, vigor, all boons from elite. Thats not a good uptime of boons. Especially if you look at other classes, that get Perma protection and very high stability uptime or regeneration while also having access to more mobility and active defenses) it might not be with it at all, to take these skills for pvp modes.

 

And that would be a bit sad. I know. Not every spec has to be good for every Gamemode.

 

BUT imo i would be really sad, if this spec was bad at roaming because of high cooldowns. It seems to have quite a high skill ceiling. Judging in which situations you can allow yourself to lower your max health.

 

 

[felincyriac.5981]

The only way this will work in pvp is via a quick get in and out power burst build that minimises your time in shroud to prevent blight build up. Ofc you wouldn't take most if not all of the elixirs as they pretty much suck.  

 

You'll be too dead to enjoy your massive 12.5% dmg mod at 25 stacks of blight in pvp.

[Shroud.2307]

27 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

The only way this will work in pvp is via a quick get in and out power burst build that minimises your time in shroud to prevent blight build up. Ofc you wouldn't take most if not all of the elixirs as they pretty much suck.  

 

You'll be too dead to enjoy your massive 12.5% dmg mod at 25 stacks of blight in pvp.

I don't at all think this would be a healthy thing to have in the game, but... The only way I'd be okay with Harbinger having the health limitations that it does, and not having a Shroud to sponge damage, is if this spec is absolutely slapping people for one shot potential damage with 8/10 skills. Meaning just about everything I do better sending people running or the "risks" I'm forced to suffer for being a Harbinger won't be worth it.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[felincyriac.5981]

15 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I don't at all think this would be a healthy thing to have in the game, but... The only way I'd be okay with Harbinger having the health limitations that it does, and not having a Shroud to sponge damage, is if this spec is absolutely slapping people for one shot potential damage with 8/10 skills. Meaning just about everything I do better sending people running or the "risks" I'm forced to suffer for being a Harbinger won't be worth it.

meh looks like most of the damage in shroud are from your projectile attacks? Given the copious about of projectile hate you are already on the backfoot. 

[Sigmoid.7082]

A lot of this reminds me of when we first saw scourge and quite a few people said it looked bad or held that sentiment, yet it turned out to be one of the most busted things the game has ever seen.

 

I'm not saying its going to be busted, but its not going to be as bad as people think. Those are my feelings. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[Methuselah.4376]

I think it's clear that just like we have specs that heavily favour PvP (Spellbreaker for example), Harbinger is a PvE spec. Heck, after all the whining over the years on the necro forums, it might just be designed solely for raids if the damage potential the devs are talking about turns out to be true. I don't see this spec doing much in PvP; as others have mentioned it might have great burst potential, but unlike thief is doesn't have stealth and blocks and only has one disengage skill locked in shroud, which means your enemies are gonna see you coming and if your burst doesn't land/kill your target, you're shafted. 

[Teratus.2859]

While I don't really like the Spec in terms of it's not so Necromancerish theme the blight mechanic is actually something I do like about this spec.

Necromancers back in the Gw1 days were well known for sacrificing their health to empower allies and punish their enemies so Blight in many ways does feel a lot like old school necromancers.. and that's pretty cool imo.

It's a shame the rest of the spec doesn't vibe too good with me though.. elixers and guns on Necro etc
Otherwise i'd be pretty excited about it.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

While I don't really like the Spec in terms of it's not so Necromancerish theme the blight mechanic is actually something I do like about this spec.

Necromancers back in the Gw1 days were well known for sacrificing their health to empower allies and punish their enemies so Blight in many ways does feel a lot like old school necromancers.. and that's pretty cool imo.

It's a shame the rest of the spec doesn't vibe too good with me though.. elixers and guns on Necro etc
Otherwise i'd be pretty excited about it.

 

 

Its on theme, except the b*ch slaping combo, was expecting some mobility with blith to beter user and flank with pistol.... very disapointed with the animation usage.

 

IMo bligth should allow Harbringer to use https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consume_Corpse 

on the enemy bodies and teleport arround 😛 and play arround this kind of skills:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dark_Aura, https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Defile_Defenses

Edited August 15, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Wintermute.5408]

3 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

A lot of this reminds me of when we first saw scourge and quite a few people said it looked bad or held that sentiment, yet it turned out to be one of the most busted things the game has ever seen.

 

I'm not saying its going to be busted, but its not going to be as bad as people think. Those are my feelings. 

Just as reminder - it turned out bugged up the kitten, and held the "top damage" crown for about a week. Then it got nerfed. THEN it got bugfixed, and arrived right to the bottom of the barrel, only taken for epidemic.

[Sigmoid.7082]

2 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Just as reminder - it turned out bugged up the kitten, and held the "top damage" crown for about a week. Then it got nerfed. THEN it got bugfixed, and arrived right to the bottom of the barrel, only taken for epidemic.

Talking about competitive modes. Since its introduction scourge has been awfully dominant in PvP and WvW in one way or another. 

 

Even in PvE I don't think you can consider scourge weak.  Its an incredibly hard carry and, after recent the changes to torment, puts out respectable damage considering the amount of barrier it gives through the sheer virtue of existing. 

[Teratus.2859]

43 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

 

Its on theme, except the b*ch slaping combo, was expecting some mobility with blith to beter user and flank with pistol.... very disapointed with the animation usage.

 

IMo bligth should allow Harbringer to use https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consume_Corpse 

on the enemy bodies and teleport arround 😛 and play arround this kind of skills:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dark_Aura, https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Defile_Defenses

Mmm consume corpse could be fun for sure, though might be a bit messy in competitive scenes due to revives.. won't be able to save corpses for use etc.

I disagree on theme though, there's some stuff that works with Necro sure but the whole Guns and Elixers stuff  is way too Engineer for me.. just doesn't work for me with what Necro is in Gw2 lol 

[SeTect.5918]

22 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Blight might have lower duration or only 1%/ stack outside of PvE.

 

Would make sense since even tmrw shroud got the unique/gamemode text.

 

With 25 sec and 2% it would essentially be unplayable in any PvP setting, which hopefully isn't the case. Outside of essentially 1 shot builds which the game hardly needs more of 

 

I do love the design of Harbinger but depending on the numbers on some stuff it might not be playable where and how I would like it to be. 

Also in PvE imo. Fractals will be pure pain with that hp pool.

Just imagine you play condi or power. As condi people will want u to run vipers ofc. As power maybe marauder or most likely berserker.
11k hp with 0 defense traits, no barrier and so on. with Vipers most likely also self conditions. Thats not playable in fractals at all imo.
Me as weaver having at least barrier on some traits and earth spec as condi to reduce incoming damage by 10% and 17% while on earth attunement.
I mean the healing of that spec is maybe cool but, look at the hp, dont tell me 11k hp without any dmg reduction or barrier is healable by any supporter in fractals.
Cal Cohen: Well they gotta need a support huh, they have to deal with this.

Like a supporter could heal this in fractals lol.

More than this: Scourge has a 36k benchmark atm and power reaper 34,4k depending on snowcrows benchmarks.
So they reduce health by 50% and remove shroud/barrier and give no dmg reduction in the traitline like scourges have (5% per sand shade).
I think this spec is not going to have 45k+ dps so its maybe going to be 38-40k.
So they reduce the health and sustain by over 70% and give us 10-15% dps. Lmao thats sad af imo.

Ofc i didnt play it yet but depending on numbers that not going to be healthy at all.

Edited August 15, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Aeolus.3615]

9 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Mmm consume corpse could be fun for sure, though might be a bit messy in competitive scenes due to revives.. won't be able to save corpses for use etc.

I disagree on theme though, there's some stuff that works with Necro sure but the whole Guns and Elixers stuff  is way too Engineer for me.. just doesn't work for me with what Necro is in Gw2 lol 

 

It could be a way to "nope nope no rez" like warrior have banner but single target in a more decent CD,  access to a finish that would heal harbringer or give something else, it could be even  telepor to place and teleport back mechanic, like in steal the final breath of that player/mob 🙂

 

The finish on target could even KD players rubing that downed player.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Teratus.2859]

8 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

It could be a way to "nope nope no rez" like warrior have banner but single target in a more decent CD,  access to a finish that would heal harbringer or give something else, it could be even  telepor to place and teleport back mechanic, like in steal the final breath of that player/mob 🙂

 

The finish on target could even KD players rubing that downed player.

 

 

It would for sure be a really fun mechanic to have, it's just so situationally viable to use I just can't see them implementing something like that.

I'm pretty sure they changed Minions to function without a corpse in Gw2 for the same reasons.
It is a cool mechanic concept though for sure ^^

[Aeolus.3615]

20 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It would for sure be a really fun mechanic to have, it's just so situationally viable to use I just can't see them implementing something like that.

I'm pretty sure they changed Minions to function without a corpse in Gw2 for the same reasons.
It is a cool mechanic concept though for sure ^^

 

Yeah extremelly situational, in terms of pve would be a useless skill as well :S

Edited August 15, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Lightning Xv.8705]

I see zero reason to use this spec at all honestly and its really disappointing. Blight is a double  nerf because it reduces your max HP which also reduces your max shroud at the same time while shroud is draining to heal you when you are missing health and the effect lasts way to kitten long for a damage boost other classes get in passive traits without committing suddoku . The elixir utilities are a joke...large amounts of blight for a trivial effect excluding the elite.  Necro gets yet again another 900 range main hand yaaay /s bonus points for attacks now being projectile so gl with that in pvp modes. The 4 and 5 in shroud have cc on them so they will do 0.0000001 damage in wvw and spvp. The 2 skill is a scatter shot and we saw how well that went down on renegade yet anet made another skill just like it though I don't see the thing getting reworked like seven shot did.

 

Why make a uber glass necro it doesn't have the base line utilities for survival like other classes have and the elite spec does nothing special to help mitigate incoming damage. I see this thing living in trailblazer gear with torment runes just to not get insta gibbed.

 

Almost forgot the lack of fear for interaction with those traits....

 

I feel like the utilities on scourge and harbinger are swapped around the wrong way.

 

overall rating-meh