Legendary armor by pve exploration [Merged]

[WindBlade.8749]

13 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

So you want ANet to install literal spyware onto everyone's PC again?

they remove it ?

[Captain Kuro.8937]

8 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

I am pretty sure that nobody does it the way you describe it. So I can’t take that seriously. But sure, auto attacking the Svanir Shaman with 50 other players is a huge challenge. Definitely deserves a legendary armor. 

When the content(Raid)  was created with in mind of :

Core power spikes

No 25stack of Might

No quickness

Exotic Gear

No healers

(If all these are used , then proceed to kill the boss in 4min)

 it doesn't sound to be very deserving either .

 

Edit:If gold runs are allowed barely by the company , is there going to be a way for the community to suppress  them ?

The community after a while will come in mutual understanding after the "Raid-Wars"

They can hide , in some other LFG categories , like a secret society 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

Open world is more challenging than ranked PvP and WvW? No, absolutely not. 

Well I can't speak for ranked PvP cause I never do it but I started doing WvW because it's easier to get the dailies very often and the reward tracks are also easier to achieve certain things in WvW than in OW. I just did the reward track for Bitterfrost Frontier and Siren's Landing because it's easier to get the item I need for Aurora from WvW.

 

And listen, I roam around a lot of the time on my own and I can cap supply camps on my own. And if I meet a group/zerg then I run along with em and capture keeps or towers with them. There is not a whole lot involved in that than just run along and PvE the crap of the objectives. There are times that it's zerg vs zerg but then someone wins or loses and life goes on. A lot of time when I see a stalemate, then I go roam again looking for supply camps again.

 

I also use WvW to get the hero points in Heart of Thorns, sometimes PoF. It's easier that way. I mean, if you think WvW is harder than OW, then please explain, because so far doing WvW has made a lot of OW stuff easier for me and it's easy enough to do. Besides, if I get my behind kicked while capping a supply camp then I just go again and then cap or another one. I think that it depends on what you want to get out of it whether or not WvW is hard. I'm just there for the pips and reward tracks.

[yoni.7015]

16 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well I can't speak for ranked PvP cause I never do it but I started doing WvW because it's easier to get the dailies very often and the reward tracks are also easier to achieve certain things in WvW than in OW. I just did the reward track for Bitterfrost Frontier and Siren's Landing because it's easier to get the item I need for Aurora from WvW.

 

And listen, I roam around a lot of the time on my own and I can cap supply camps on my own. And if I meet a group/zerg then I run along with em and capture keeps or towers with them. There is not a whole lot involved in that than just run along and PvE the crap of the objectives. There are times that it's zerg vs zerg but then someone wins or loses and life goes on. A lot of time when I see a stalemate, then I go roam again looking for supply camps again.

 

I also use WvW to get the hero points in Heart of Thorns, sometimes PoF. It's easier that way. I mean, if you think WvW is harder than OW, then please explain, because so far doing WvW has made a lot of OW stuff easier for me and it's easy enough to do. Besides, if I get my behind kicked while capping a supply camp then I just go again and then cap or another one. I think that it depends on what you want to get out of it whether or not WvW is hard. I'm just there for the pips and reward tracks.

Sure if you just do that it is just as challenging as open world. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Thanks for that. 

 

Still, 5% is your edge ONLY if you're comparing people with the same build and the same skill. I'm running around in WvW with full ascended gear but I'm sure that someone in exotic gear that's good at PvP can kick my behind any day.

As i pointed out, it's more than that. 5% is the damage difference between exotic and ascended damage value on weapon alone. All the changes from stat increases get added on top of it. the actual difference, depending on build, food, boons etc, can be anywhere from between 6% to around 20%.

 

In raid environment, on full zerker, with full boons, food etc, it is around 11% iirc dps increase over similar case full exotic. And some 2-3% damage reduction increase. Notice, btw, that boons and food flatten that difference - the increase is bigger when comparing situation without boons/food

Of course it's not as clearcut in WvW situation, because next to noone will be running full glass (and survivability calculations are harder to make than pure dps increases). On the other hand you will likely not have full boon setup either, (or run full dps food for that matter).

Edited August 24, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

If placing Legendary Armor behind Raid +WvW +PvP combined is discouraging people from trying, then the problem lies in the playerbase that bars themselves behind such mindset instead of the game system.

 

There is nothing beneficial for Anet to reward such mindset that hinders future development of contents, only to benefit Bot sellers.

You seem to be assuming that the players are for the game, not the way around. That assumption is very much mistaken.

If a product "sells" badly, the problem does not lie in customers not liking it. It lies with the product not being enticing enough to customers. So, if most players do not want to raid, or play WvW, etc, it's not problem with the players - it's a problem with the content.

 

 

[Trejgon.9367]

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

Sure if you just do that it is just as challenging as open world. 

And the fun part is that if you do just that, for long enough you will get set of legendary armor 🙂

Which I believe was the point raised and discussed.

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

Sure if you just do that it is just as challenging as open world. 

So what is harder in WvW then?

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

So what is harder in WvW then?

Really playing the mode. 

[Gehenna.3625]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Really playing the mode. 

I find that answer vague and unconvincing.

 

 

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I find that answer vague and unconvincing.

 

 

What do you want to hear? It is not my job to convince you or teach you how to play WvW properly. 
If you think capturing camps is everything WvW has to offer that’s on you. 

[kharmin.7683]

10 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

If placing Legendary Armor behind Raid +WvW +PvP combined is discouraging people from trying, then the problem lies in the playerbase that bars themselves behind such mindset instead of the game system.

I'm not sure that I would agree with blaming the player base.  To me, it is more of Anet not targeting the right audience.  Whether that is intentional or not, I couldn't say.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

What do you want to hear? It is not my job to convince you or teach you how to play WvW properly. 
If you think capturing camps is everything WvW has to offer that’s on you. 

I'm just interested in why you think WvW is harder than OW content. I don't see it and because of your vagueness and evasiveness, it's clear to me that it's just your opinion because you can't explain why you think that. 

 

And of course I don't think that supply camps are all there is in WvW. There are towers, keeps and a castle in EB. So please don't put words in my mouth. There's outguessing the opponents and see where they will strike next. And I do all that, but in the end I do it for the pips and reward tracks.

 

And no it's not your job, but you haven't made a single good argument for your statement, so that's actually what I want to hear from you: arguments to support your statement. Just saying it's harder doesn't mean a thing. Anyone can say that, but without arguments it's just a hollow statement.

[yoni.7015]

8 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I'm just interested in why you think WvW is harder than OW content. I don't see it and because of your vagueness and evasiveness, it's clear to me that it's just your opinion because you can't explain why you think that. 

 

And of course I don't think that supply camps are all there is in WvW. There are towers, keeps and a castle in EB. So please don't put words in my mouth. There's outguessing the opponents and see where they will strike next. And I do all that, but in the end I do it for the pips and reward tracks.

 

And no it's not your job, but you haven't made a single good argument for your statement, so that's actually what I want to hear from you: arguments to support your statement. Just saying it's harder doesn't mean a thing. Anyone can say that, but without arguments it's just a hollow statement.

You are right. Let me point out one argument. I think the interaction with enemy players makes WvW more challenging than open world. Fighting against another player is more difficult than fighting against npc enemies, at least when they are not raid bosses. 

[Gehenna.3625]

Just now, yoni.7015 said:

You are right. Let me point out one argument. I think the interaction with enemy players makes WvW more challenging than open world. Fighting against another player is more difficult than fighting against npc enemies, at least when they are not raid bosses. 

Ok that's an argument and a fair one.

 

Now from my experience, a lot of those situations are solved with a zerg and when your zerg is bigger than theirs that's all you really need. Or rather when you outnumber them, you win. However, not always. Particularly when the number of players involved is not that high. Then player skill and broken builds are definitely a thing.

 

But I also think about this. When you lose a combat in WvW, you can try again right away. Or in 5 mins if it's about an objective. If for example in OW you try to coordinate 3 groups to do Triple Trouble, however... so that's an extreme example but there are various meta's that require coordination of players and they can fail if a group isn't aware of what they're doing. Ask the commanders how challenging that is 😉

 

So what I'm saying is that OW content may be a different kind of difficult but it can be challenging just the same. So I'm not saying that WvW is easier but for some things it is and some things it's not. So that's the reason why I certainly wouldn't make such a sweeping statement that one is easier than the other. For me it really depends on what you're talking about but also what you consider challenging. 

 

[Linken.6345]

18 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Ok that's an argument and a fair one.

 

Now from my experience, a lot of those situations are solved with a zerg and when your zerg is bigger than theirs that's all you really need. Or rather when you outnumber them, you win. However, not always. Particularly when the number of players involved is not that high. Then player skill and broken builds are definitely a thing.

 

But I also think about this. When you lose a combat in WvW, you can try again right away. Or in 5 mins if it's about an objective. If for example in OW you try to coordinate 3 groups to do Triple Trouble, however... so that's an extreme example but there are various meta's that require coordination of players and they can fail if a group isn't aware of what they're doing. Ask the commanders how challenging that is 😉

 

So what I'm saying is that OW content may be a different kind of difficult but it can be challenging just the same. So I'm not saying that WvW is easier but for some things it is and some things it's not. So that's the reason why I certainly wouldn't make such a sweeping statement that one is easier than the other. For me it really depends on what you're talking about but also what you consider challenging. 

 

So you are saying the commanders of things like triple trouble deserve legendary armor, well to that I agree.

The zerg tho do not.

[Vilin.8056]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You seem to be assuming that the players are for the game, not the way around. That assumption is very much mistaken.

If a product "sells" badly, the problem does not lie in customers not liking it. It lies with the product not being enticing enough to customers. So, if most players do not want to raid, or play WvW, etc, it's not problem with the players - it's a problem with the content.

Or it is the other way around - player demand for legendary armor implementation outside these 3 modes are too niche to make developers deem worthy of the effort. Therefore it makes more sense to "sell" equipment slots from gemstore instead of implementing another expensive gold grind QoL onto the vast majority of players.

 

You seem to assuming that your approach represents the vast majority, and the game would "sell" if its rules bends for you wish. That assumption is the one which is mistaken.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Tails.9372]

40 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Let me point out one argument. I think the interaction with enemy players makes WvW more challenging than open world.

 

That's not really a good argument as you're blatantly ignoring the context of the topic at hand:

 

4 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

It should be a challenge to get legendary armor.

"interaction with enemy players" is pretty much a non factor when it comes to getting legendary WvW gear and is even counterproductive as you generally get more out of it if you let the enemy take the objective in question in order to reclaim it later on.

 

This also goes both ways btw. When it comes to OW you instantly jumped to the easiest content you could think of while doing the exact opposite for WvW. In the same vein an OW player could also be dismissive of your "auto attacking the Svanir Shaman with 50 other players" and tell you of with "you're just not really playing the mode" which he defines as soloing legendary bounties and meta bosses.

 

But the fact remains that the "challenging" part in context refers to what is the minimum requirement to make progress towards legendary armor which for WvW and sPvP is putting the bar extremely low.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Or it is the other way around - player demand for legendary armor implementation outside these 3 modes are too niche to make developers deem worthy of the effort. Therefore it makes more sense to "sell" equipment slots from gemstore instead of implementing another expensive gold grind QoL onto the vast majority of players.

 

You seem to assuming that your approach represents the vast majority, and the game would "sell" if its rules bends for you wish. That assumption is the one which is mistaken.

Then how you can call the player demand for legendary armor inside raids, when player demand for raids as a whole is already on the level devs deemed to not be good enough for further content development?

[Vilin.8056]

10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then how you can call the player demand for legendary armor inside raids, when player demand for raids as a whole is already on the level devs deemed to not be good enough for further content development?

You seems to mistaken history.

According to developers, raid population is super healthy throughout 2015~2016, which is the year when legendary armor makes introduction for raids.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Astralporing.1957]

24 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You seems to mistaken history.

According to developers, raid population is super healthy throughout 2015~2016, which is the year when legendary armor makes introduction for raids.

 

You need to stop living in the past.

[Vilin.8056]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You need to stop living in the past.

I'm not the one who asked for past events.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I'm not sure that I would agree with blaming the player base.  To me, it is more of Anet not targeting the right audience.  Whether that is intentional or not, I couldn't say.

I would DEFINITELY not be blaming the playerbase. The idea that it's players fault for not engaging in content they don't like just to get something they want is absurd. That kind of MMO mentality should have been left behind in the 2000's. The game has to serve its players ... the players are not there to be slaves to the game; there is just too much competition in the market to have game devs treat players like this now. If the game introduces something that most players don't engage in, that's NOT the players fault. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Rinagal.9235]

5 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You seems to mistaken history.

According to developers, raid population is super healthy throughout 2015~2016, which is the year when legendary armor makes introduction for raids.

It just shows that players played raids for rewards in the first place and not for the content itself, that the more players got/got burnt out by trying to get/gave up on getting what they wanted, the less interest of player base raids had, to the point where ArenaNet decided raids no longer worth of resources required for development.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Rinagal.9235

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

You seems to mistaken history.

According to developers, raid population is super healthy throughout 2015~2016, which is the year when legendary armor makes introduction for raids.

 

I don't believe this shows that the non-raiding PVE players is 'too niche' to not implement it though. 

 

You are right in a sense ... it is speculation that non-raiding players would want a non-raiding approach to create legendary armor to justify doing it. But then again, it's speculation that ANY content put in the game is going to be 'used' to a level that justifies it existence (for example, raids), so I don't see that as a reason not consider it. 

 

I really don't see an argument to not consider a non-raiding path for leg. armor just because it's speculative non-raiding players would want it. I do feel that other leg. items like trinkets and weapons are good indicators of how attractive leg. armor would be to non-raiding players ... the fact that Anet continues to add these things to the game seem to me to suggest leg. armor wouldn't get the cold shoulder from non-raiding players. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952