Willbender Feedback Thread

BlueTurtle.9263 · August 20, 2021

First of all not too crazy about the name but it's kinda growing on me; kinda on the fence whether or not I think it needs a new (lore appropriate) name.

So overall I like the spec. I like the how the traits are arranged, especially the trade offs in the first tier. I don't know if it was a tooltip error but it seems like the alacrity given in the Resolve grandmaster trait isn't long enough to really make the trait worth using (even when taken boon duration traits and stats the tooltip stayed at 1.75 secs); might need longer duration.

My main problem with the spec is that I feel like it has too much movement and not only that but unnecessary movement; not from a playing against the spec standpoint but as a person using the spec. I don't play crazy movement based thief so maybe people are more used to it but to me it seems a little too much to handle, even when trying out a build that had none of the movement-focused utility skills taken. The main issue are the virtues. Courage might be fine as it's a shadowstep but Justice and Resolve being dashes that go through the target (assuming they're supposed to do that) feel awkward as it feels like you'd want to activate virtues midfight most of the time. Even if a condition build uses Justice to initiate, they'd likely want to reactivate it again at some point in a longer fight. But between movement skills on weapons, virtues, and some of the utility skills, it feels overwhelming to use. I felt like I had to pause and go through the rotation in my head before every encounter to not find myself completely away from the target. Maybe make Justice and Resolve stop at the first enemy and rework one of the utility skills to be more combat oriented (for those that take all the new skills).

Also, possibly due to feeling a bit overwhelmed as stated above, I didn't really feel like I noticed the damaging ability of the offhand sword. I didn't really notice the animation and I also didn't notice the burst damage that I thought it was supposed to have. I don't know if that means it just wasn't activating properly in the rotation I was using or if the damage was low.

It should probably be made clear in the tooltips exactly how traits that affect the passive component of virtues are treated when spec'd as a willbender. Either state "this does nothing when used by a willbender" or possibly change these traits to do something differently when used by a willbender. The later might be a good option if buffs are needed.

Random thought, but I saw someone make the joke "what if the meta was to not take any trait for the first tier?" as they have tradeoffs. If people actually try to do that, should we let them or should we force it like "if no traits are selected then by default the spec will use the middle row" or something? Just something to consider. Might also help people on any profession that just forget to set something or haven't logged in a while and have things deselected.

Edited August 20, 2021 by BlueTurtle.9263
clarified some points

oscuro.9720 · August 20, 2021

I previously replied to this thread a few hours after the spec speaking on my initial reactions. I said many of the issues I was experiencing were most likely L2P (yes, you can say l2p to yourself, it’s possible), and that I had no specific recommendations. I have since played significantly more on willbender. So I will be listing my more educated feedback and recommendations in this comment.

Once again, this is mostly roaming in WvW small group/solo (mostly solo) and dueling in armistice.

The Virtues:

Overall Changes:

The virtues need to have active effect on every hit while the stance is active rather than every fifth hit. It gives a more burst oriented gameplay (the only way this spec works from my time on it), and creates real trade offs for switching stances sooner. Right now, I really don’t care if the stance is active or not because it changes nothing. Every 5th hit/normal pacing simply doesn’t work.
For example; Justice stance applies .5 sec burn every hit, Resolve Stance heals 300 for every hit, Courage stance applies 1.5 sec protection (or aegis, which would require a lower duration total, like 1 or .5s) for every hit.
Don't have the Willbender flames cancel other willbender flames. The way the class plays, you have to constantly be using mobility skills in competitive, meaning the Willbender flames are around for very little time. It removes a degree of battlefield control that the class could really use imo to increase its ability to outmaneuver opponents. Instead, maybe have different flame effects based on the active stance. For example; while justice is active, Willbender flames grant you might when hitting an enemy, while Resolve is active flames chill enemies they hit, while Courage is active flames grant you aegis when hitting a foe. This gives better control effects without requiring a more stagnant play style (like standing in flames, like symbols require). That’s just an off-the-cuff idea, but some way to keep the flames and enhance their effect to increase sustain would probably be beneficial.

F1

Feedback: The F1 is bad. The mobility is cool and all, but losing active blind (on core) or the utility of spear in exchange for some mobility, a VERY lackluster damage, and a tiny AoE that does nothing in competitive modes is simply not a good trade off. Additionally, the passive only activating while the stance is active is a straight downgrade. The long aftercast/second cast time between the dash and the punch makes it so you can literally walk away from the attack (tested in armistice). The range of the punch is minuscule, making it rarely connect as a stand alone skill, which is what I would want from a mobility skill. Sword 2 is better. The damage is also terrible. Within the confines of what was provided, against glass FA ele it would maybe crit 2k, ik not sure it even got that high.
Recommendations: There’s a variety of ways this could change. The absolutely necessary change is to increase the speed with which the punch is executed. It can’t have that long of an after cast, and it can’t take that long. I’m pretty sure it’s killed me being stuck in the animation more times than I’ve actually landed it on a non-CC’d opponent (only slightly exaggerating).
The damage needs to be higher on this skill. The initial hit is where most of the damage comes from right now, and it’s a paltry damage value. A damage value near Rush would work better considering it’s a pretty straightforward dash as well.
Will bender flames need some changes. First, the flames need to be MUCH larger. In competitive modes it is tiny, and completely avoidable. Not that going in them actually does anything really. The damage should be around symbol level, if not more (considering it’s a class mechanic focused on damage). In its current state, they aren’t something to avoid because it’s ignorable. I do REALLY like that the willbender flames scale to power damage though. That is a fantastic add.
Making it a leap finisher would add more utility, especially since light aura pairs extremely well with the radiance line for power builds.

F2

Feedback: Overall, it’s pretty good. The main thing is the stance effect needs to be better. Other than that, it’s pretty good. Not exceptional, but not terrible. Adding a better sustain component to it would be nice, since willbender is EXTREMELY squishy.

Recommendations: Change stance effects. Add a larger Willbender flame effect. Again, if these are supposed to be an impactful part of the class, they should be made relevant in some way. Maybe a way to link these would be to add a healing effect to standing in willbender flames? I don’t know, overall the F2 is not bad at all.

F3

Feedback: Again, this one isn’t bad. It’s a teleport which is great, but the pathing of it is as a dash or leap. I tried to port through a Test of Faith, as I would with sword 2 or JI, and I took 8k damage. That was not fun.
Recommendations: This needs more range. Not a lot more, but more. I find myself always being about 100 range short of the skills range in the natural flow of combat. Usually it’s another class using an evasive skill to separate, I want to keep pressure, but their evasive skill just out distances the effect. That’s not good, because if I use it, I’ll be locked in an animation ripe for being bursted as it completes. Forcing the opponent to dodger with the actual skill would really change the dynamics. This part might be partially L2P, but I still think the range needs maybe 200-300 more so it can actually apply good pressure.

Sword 4:

Feedback: This skill is just bad. I don’t mean it’s bad because I want it to be OP, it’s bad compared to other similar skills that already exist in the game. Warrior’s Axe 4 does more damage without a precursor hit, with a faster cast time, no secondary cast time, and applies quickness. Landing this skill is so difficult, and is not rewarding in any way. The big hits are critting 1.7k against the zerk Mesmer I tested it in. That’s 3.4K damage for a 3/4 sec cast time on a non-aoe melee skill (also known as bad). There’s a few ways to fix this.

Recommendations: If you keep the precursor strike, have the precursor strike apply super speed, so that I can keep up with the opponent. Even when the precursor hits, if I have cripple or chill, they will walk out of the actual damage. This also lets you proc the skill off of one enemy, and actually hit another, adding a more dynamic play style and increasing mobility (which is the whole point). Then increase the damage. It should be hitting more like 4-6k total (if all strikes land) rather than 3k given its cast time.
If the precursor strike is removed, increase damage and reduce the cast time dramatically.
As is, it’s clunky and slow and not really worth using many times. I love landing it in combat, because it FEELS like it will be impactful, but then it doesn’t really do much. I honestly don’t mind the precursor strike, it just needs a LOT more impact.

Sword 5

Feedback: This skill is useful. The dash portion is kinda slow, and can make you eat some damage, but the skill isn’t bad. The Slow and Immob are great, and makes landing it feel rewarding.
Recommendation: A slightly faster dash portion would be nice. Not necessary, but nice. The range is too small, should be increased a bit. Something like 100 more range on the dash, then 100 range on the teleport threshold would work well. It’s, once again, one of those skills that always feels like it comes up just a LITTLE too short.

Heal

Feedback: I ditched this after about 5 hours of duels. It is unreliable, slightly buggy, and doesn’t have much impact. The other heals, mostly trained Litany of Wrath (my preferred heal) and Shelter (meta heal), are better.
Recommendation: I still don’t know what to do with this. Maybe make it a full channel block, then at the end, heal for X amount if you take damage, then convert Y% of the damage taken into barrier. If the damage would’ve been lethal, heal for Z (a value larger than X). Or it could be a stance-type effect so you can keep using abilities while it’s active, to differentiate from Shelter.
I honestly don’t know what to do with this heal. The foundation is AWESOME. As a Spell main, I love the instant cast counter play that has the ability to turn the tide of a fight. This has that idea, but it simply didn’t turn the tide of anything. Just switching out the heal to Litany or Shelter drastically improved the cadence and survivability ability of the spec. Also add some sort of coupling with will bender flames. Again, if this is a part of the class mechanic, it needs to be stronger. Right now it’s mostly a visual effect imo.

Utilities:

They are decent, but lack a certain pack. The evade back+cc is the best imo (I am writing this after having written everything else and don’t have the skills in front of me anymore), some immob on the flip skill would help give the class some better setup. The whirling kick can burst some damage pretty fast, but is pretty vulnerable in a competitive setting, overall not bad. The rest are alright, but I wouldn’t take them over some other existing utilities if I’m trying to be as effective as possible.
Recommendations: Add some sort of will bender flame tie in to these utilities. There’s a lot that could be done with willbender flames to make it impactful, but, as I previously stated, in competitive it just feels like a visual effect (albeit a VERY cool looking visual).
for example; The whirling on could create a ring of willbender flames wherever is strikes enemies. The stun could create a cascade of Willbender flames behind the target if struck (a similar ground pattern and effect to Warrior’s Berserker Longbow F1, where it’s three rectangular boxes cascading outward). I feel like it would add a lot more impact to the utilities and make willbender flames actually fell useful, especially for controlling the field so you can position better, resulting in more sustain.

Traits: I will update this at a later time probably, I haven’t really looked at how they play as closely as I should have.

Overall: The Willbender is fun. It really is. Fighting other willbenders, Virt, and Harb is really fun. But it is very clearly underpowered when fighting current specs. It struggles in some regard vs everything. It’s damage is low, it’s sustain is low, it’s control potential is low. The only thing that is high is it’s mobility. Unlike others, I don’t think it needs a rework. A lot of the “completely unplayable” comments come from people who need to learn to play the espec how it can be played effectively rather than playing it like a typical guard, because it plays absolutely NOTHING like a normal guard (which I absolutely LOVE). The Espec has a ton of potential, has a very good base, but it seems like the design got too restrictive with trade offs (like cancelling will ended flames when new ones are created).

I will continue to update this comment as I continue to play exclusively will bender over the course of the beta. A final impressions will be added, as well as the Traits section.

Edited August 20, 2021 by oscuro.9720

Ezrael.6859 · August 20, 2021

Holy Reckoning is essentially a useless trait due to Willbender Flames not landing on any enemy that moves (PvP / WvW / some PvE).

Willbender Flames don't work well as a mechanic, either the area affected needs to be increased by a lot for all of them or the effect should become a flaming PBAoE aura emanating from the Willbender himself.

This would also make more thematic sense as the Willbender is meant to be a highly mobile combatant, but Willbender Flames are short duration, small area static effect fields tied to Virtues which are on very long cooldowns in PvP / WvW.

DemonSeed.3528 · August 20, 2021

Right now the best way I can generally describe Willbender is basically like the guy you see in kungfu movies doing all the fancy moves getting to the opponent and finally reaching them and getting the snot beaten out of them when the opponent just needs to do one move to bring them down. That's just how it "feels". However I am getting used to the skills/mechanics and I really feel like something can come out of it. Without going into specifics (I think other people here are more qualified to speak about this than I am), I think numbers and cast times need to be adjusted in general with offhand sword, wb traits, and their interactions with other core traits.

Arcaedus.7290 · August 20, 2021

I know Anet will do whatever it is that they will do, but I just wanted to put some fun ideas/suggestions out there since everyone has already mentioned what feels bad/off at this point. I suggest these changes with PvP/WvW in mind, but I think any player in any game mode could enjoy these.

I think any number of the following suggestions would be welcome improvements and maybe even fun:

I think using one willbender virtue canceling out any other current active ones is a good idea, but the duration of the willbender virtue should be longer, say 8 seconds, and then have the GM trade off traits be -3 seconds. It's already very difficult for players to rack up 5-hits with this spec in pvp, so they either need more time to do so, or less hits to do so, and less hits kinda ruins the theme of willbender.
Let the willbender flames of all 3 virtues persist/remain for longer, and also persist/remain even if another virtue is immediately used.
Add a trait (or just a function of the specialization) that allows symbols to leave behind willbender flames after they end
Increase the AOE of Willbender flames, and increase their damage
Add more of a visual oomph to sword 4 and sword 5. I think the character animation is nice, but there are not that flashy of vfx for using/landing these skills
Add a nice animation to Reversal of Fortune if it successfully absorbs an attack that results in the Willbender healing the greater amount
Every single physical skill (save for maybe the heal) should have some sort of control effect imo. Flash Combo could do well to have cripple
Flash combo gives off the vibe of a monk hitting pressure points. I think it would be neat that every single one of the 5 strikes does something unique, like maybe a different condition each (but very short duration), with the 5th hit doing bigger damage and unlocking Repose like it currently does.
Potentially OP change for Heaven's Palm: Have this skill be two hits instead of 1. Both are unblockable. The first hit specifically boon-rips stability, and the second hit performs its current 4s stun. Both hits occur practically back to back, so it's easy to dodge/evade both, but you can't block it. Now THAT would be an absolute show-stopper in pvp, and would earn it a 45s cd like it has in pve. Heck, people might actually take that over Renewed focus for once.

Gorem.8104 · August 20, 2021

On 8/19/2021 at 12:57 PM, Exile.8160 said:

The knockdown signet is actually better than the elite let that sink in. This class feels like it was done at last minute unlike the necro.

hahahaha true that, you know what they should to, as they said in the reveal "Elites break the rules" is change it to be a five second knockdown that ignores Stability, so they need to use a stun break to break out or die, that you can use while moving, and give the rest a bigger range aoe knockback. Or even better yet, on cast you shadow step to your target and do an animation that can be used while moving with those new effects. Need to react fast to dodge it or interrupt it or you'll be punished. Maybe instead of a shadowstep it can be a leap with you holding your fist out and are shining blue with a grin on your characters face.

Something fun, instead of what it actually is - an Elite you use if you want to make yourself weaker

TheRealGorthaur.1796 · August 20, 2021

I already replied once here, but I was wondering about the OH sword:

sword 5 is kind of weird currently, but gap closing is definitely useful
sword 4 is 'just damage' and not even that good there. How about adding boon rip? Ok, guardian was probably not supposed to have that but this would really set OH sword apart on guardian and be a reason for people to use it.

SpectralHorseman.1962 · August 20, 2021

Hi there!

Some things I've noticed on the skills:

Quick Retribution: Animation could be timed a bit better with the 'particle' effects to be more synchronized instead of delayed (unless its meant to be like that, but doesn't seem like it is...)

Reversal of Fortune: Animation is not refined at the end of the skill, the arms in block position awkwardly jolt back to the resting pose.

Flash Combo: Animation could be slightly smoother at the end of the skill.

Advancing Strike, Rushing Justice, Heaven's Palm: Animation could be refined a bit, or generally made a little smoother.

Thanks for your time! Hope this helps!

tonystark.4682 · August 20, 2021

Heaven's Palm should be a good elite skill for PvP, however the cast time is really too low in high end fight, most of player can dodge it, even the knockdown target time is 4 secs.

Can we just reduce the cast time from 1.25 secs to 0.5 secs, and also reduce the knockdown target time from 4 secs to 2 secs, I think it will much more usable in most of PvP scenario.

Xaylin.1860 · August 20, 2021

Preface

I didn’t play Willbender in any endgame content nor played several hours of PvP but I toyed with it for some time and checked/tested the interactions and builds I theorycrafted in advance. My opinion on things might change when I play it more, so it is more of a first impression and overall thoughts.

The Willbender overall

Name aside, I did like the presentation of the Willbender. All the punching doesn't fit what I think of when playing my Guardian but I really enjoy the mobility and the new Virtues. While DH already made a step into this direction, this feels like a proper re-imagination of the class mechanic. When it comes to playing the WB, I had a bit of a hard time. Traits lack focus and while Physicals make sense thematically, it is a bit "more of the same" when looking at Virtues and OH Sword.

One specific topic I'd like to highlight: After-casts. They harshly reduce the benefit of the added mobility. However, I want people to remember how DrD played in the first beta. It was a mess. In contrast to Harbinger, which basically got a reskinned Burning Speed and Vault on Shroud, WB got new skills. Not necessarily animationwise. But, for example, the Sword dash is basically an Unhindered Combatant dodge with an attack cued after that. It's quite similar for F1 and the punch. I do believe ANet will be able to clean this up and make them worthwhile. At this point I don't think that they need an increased range. Instead, they should invest time in traits and tuning up the damage in some places.

Virtue stances

The weaponless punching aside, I really enjoy them. There are only two things that irritate me a little bit. First, as other mentioned, it works fine in scenarios with many enemies. It falls short when solo due to Willbender Flames. Considering WB is a mobile (and potentially selfish) spec, how is this supposed to work for PvP (Roamer, +1) or in WvW? I don't think this can be solved via Virtues themselves. But there should be options to specifically trait for this. Second, I already said it early, why double down on this type of skills by giving WB Physicals?

I do like Willbender Flames, although the F2 ones are too situational (narrow).

OH Sword

The skills are fine and the weapon fills a niche that isn't covered yet. Will I use? I don't really know yet because I don't have any specific builds I want to play yet. However, OH Sword gives me the possibility to NOT pick any movement related Utilities and still be mobile.

Damage and animations have to be adjusted.

Utilities

Personally, I'm just not a fan of Physicals overall. Yes, they do fit the theme. But with the new Virtues, it's very much same same. I think people have already pointed out how buggy the heal is. On the bright side, Whirling Light is a lot of fun although it might not ever become meta. Flash Combo is a nice alternative to JI.

Food for thought: Why do we have so many CC effects on Physicals but no trait that encourages this kind of gameplay?

Traits

This is... messy. While Virtuoso is uninspired as hell, it is still somewhat structured. Here, someone went bonkers. The most obvious flaw I see: There is no clear vision where this should lead. Yes, I can build things and they will probably synergize with core Guardian somehow. But this set up really makes me question the purpose of this spec. Aside from damage adjustments and cleaning up animations, this is where ANet should invest more time. But let's look at the traits.

Adept

Majors

I do feel like those traits are disappointing. Of course, stat increases can be meaningful for builds, but in the end, they always feel like fillers to me. They don't change your gameplay. They don't encourage you to do specific things. There are better ways to do it.

Boon Pact – I get the idea. However, it still doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be more interesting if it increased the effectiveness of Boons on the WB and reduce Boon duration on allies, maybe even yourself? Like Improved Alacrity or other Might or Protection related traits already ingame (each Boon might need a different increase)? My reasoning is twofold: First, just increasing the Boon duration will not change your gameplay that much – plus, it would just be like with core, DH and FB. You will start stacking Boons to no end. Not very interesting. Second, I feel like WB needs to be able to frontload effects or have them be more effective in certain situation. Sure, this will make the class more difficult to master. But that's the beauty of it, imho.
Power for Power – Same, get the idea. Still boring. Idea: Put Lethal Tempo here. Maybe even including the increase of Tyrant's Momentum. Slap a Toughness debuff on it. Way more interesting than a permanent stat swap.
Conceited Curate – Oh boy. HP has had a hard time in GW2 since launch. Because the stat points usually don't measure up to other stats due to how low HP-coefficients on skills are. This is also the issue I see here. In my opinion, the Holy Reckoning healing effect should go here (not the damage). The debuff on outgoing healing could stay.

Master

Righteous Sprint – It is fine. DHs will be salty.

Majors

Restorative Virtues – One of the more interesting traits. I like it.
Holy Reckoning – While I do like it, I wonder if there could be more interesting ways to implement those effects while having an interaction with core. For example, what if Holy Reckoning granted WB flames the characteristic of Symbols? This would mean they could interact with Zeal and Honor.
Vanguard Tactics – I really like 'On Shadowstep' traits and wished Mirage had something like this. The trait overall is good. However, to me it doesn't match well with Deathless Courage. I'd rather see the shadowstep bonus be attached to something else.

Grandmaster

Lethal Tempo – Inspiring Virtue 2.0. The benefit is fine. But I don't care for damage modifiers as Minor traits. If you want to build for it, sure. The negative thing about this: It will want you to trigger the passives via WB flames. However, it doesn't change the way you do it (or the frequency... or whatever). It doesn't impact your gameplay. Personally, I would like Vanguard Tactics to move here because at it's core, WB is about movement. Vanguard Tactics could work for Shadowsteps AND Leaps and maybe even Cripple for a short time IF the hit connects with a target to give WB a bit more sticking power.

Phoenix Protocol – I do like the concept and Alacrity. But I don't think it is worth it atm.
Tyrant's Momentum – See Lethal Tempo. I don't really care.
Deathless Courage – Quite interesting trait but this effect is so way out there... I'd either want Justice and Resolve to gain something similar. This would mean that Justice would probably need a way bigger damage boost comparable to Blight or harshly reduce the number of hits needed to trigger the passive effect. And Phoenix Procotol would have to have a 25-50% reduced cooldown for skill while in this stance etc. Or it should just be the elite Utility skill and the current elite could replace the stun-kick.

So overall, instead of limiting creativity by the "Each Virtue needs a GM" approach, I'd rather see themes like, for example, one set to focus on damage, one on self-buffs/sustain and one on mobility. This just happens to not perfectly line up with the Virtues. It probably still give WB a way clearer vision.

Food for thought: What if WB had a trait that granted a short damage buff after CC-ing an enemy, maybe with an increased effectiveness when interrupting?

anduriell.6280 · August 20, 2021

From a WvW perspective.

The e-spec could find a place as roamer or zerg off support fast attack unit ( if the pirate meta comes back) but unfortunately the Virtues do not have enough range. It could even work as a off-support guard. using core utilities.

The class is mostly fine the damage is there if they can land it, the issue is with the virtues range. I would personally make the Virtues actives to have a range of 900, and F2 to use a ground target AoE similar to how Ancestral Grace works. Right now there is very little control over how far or where is the virtue taking us and that's is very frustrating to play around.

Rushing Virtue can benefit from Daze to be more impactful as rush in interrupt tactic.

Utilities could benefit from having an additional charge and have increased cooldowns. This seems to be designed as a highly mobile spec but lacks the needed mobility from the toolset. Having access to be able to cast the skill twice would make the utilities more useful and would get better use.

Hell crack may need to reduce the stun to 1s, but i would balance that after if needed.

Queeriel.2430 · August 20, 2021

Found the Willbender nice to play, with dual swords, the only thing I was interested in, as I like melee and it resembles the dual equipped weaver as to the mechanics.

I tried a power build, but that was quite weak and did not suit me. So I ended up running a condi hybrid, with weps and armor vipers, and trinks viper, celestial and Bringer (for the expertise). I did not find the utilities of much help, but managed well without them, relying on the virtues and the healing. Did not use virtues F2 and F3 that much either, coz I do not like spells that you have to place. The little pve I have run in Southsun, one DRM, HoT gave me no extra hardships. I found the dmg and sustain exceptionally good. I highly recommend condi Willbender.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Queeriel.2430

Impulse.5704 · August 20, 2021

Sorry to say it so straightforward but pls take this whole spec back to the concept board. This ain’t it… I know you can do so much better than this, compared to prior elite specs this feels so incredibly lackluster and quickly put together without any sophisticated concept. I honestly don’t unterstand how design quality dropped so low on this… I know it’s only beta but tweaking some numbers will not fix it. I‘m also really worried about the other specs now after playing willbender.

I just want EoD to be a great expansion, I don’t mind if you have to delay the release for another 6 months if it needs the extra work, just pls don't ship something that is not ready for it.

antidote.7201 · August 20, 2021

PvE

Willbender is probably the most gameplay changing of any EoD elite for now. We get access to exclusive physical skills, which is a different gameplay from what we've played in the past. We keep the traditionals virtues F1-F2-F3, but the setup for skill is based on attacks and counter-attacks. This said, we kinda rely on positionning and fast reactions, which goes to anticipation. Some skills actually bring what is needed : "Symbol of Blades" with teleport to target, F1-F2-F3 enabling a long patern of possible fight phases, and utility skills. Meanwhile, I think we're kinda lacking of real sustain, since of Virtues once used or traited with "Phoenix Protocol" are no longer effective in Regeneration and can bring us to a really squishy spot, where we don't really know what to do excepted escape. The elite skill "Heaven's palm" need few boons like protection to bring on the possible for some complicated situations where we have to have certains mechanic bosses. Overall, I'd add some exclusive effects on the skills, like you did for F1, but with more impacts on the visual design and animations.

Willbender brings an emotional and adrenaline creator class, but it still need some support for longer fights. Aegis, swiftness, quickness, and protection. I'd add a second stack of Stability for the F3, since it's really easy to debuff with the previous expansion.

The skill 4 "Executionner Brawlong" is kinda low on effect and not really impactful. I'd see a circle that could potentially pull up enemies, making the actual fight more in phase with the actual Samourai 's spirit.

Otherwise, there's a synergy with all traits, but it might be difficult to find a condi build with this specialization. i'd add few condis to some basic skills, with a special trait that could potentially build a real gameplay versatility.

WvW

As for other classes of EoD, we need to bring the small scale fun gameplay to a level of large scale fighting.

Few ideas : increase the radius of certains skills, decrease some cooldowns for WvW, and as for other classes : a visual marker on the ground.

Woop S.7851 · August 20, 2021

After much testing, I see the rough idea/direction was to:

Create a martial arts themed elite spec
Have Virtues as stances
Yin/Yang effect for balance

In other words:

Fight using 'stances' like a Warrior
while "bending" elements of 'virtue' like a Elementalist at 'will' (GW1: Warrior/Monk, Warrior/Ele)?
Hence: the core concept of 'virtues' as a mechanic needs unpacking, once set, it'd then makes sense to design traits/weapon skills & utilities around it (multiple combinations & variants for unique builds)

Lore:

"Guardians of Cantha are now able to 'will' the power of celestials through the heavens while manifesting them as lethal stances in combat"

Concept/Mechanics:

Opposing 5 forces of nature (金木水火土) imbued in virtues
(A Guardian that 'bends' celestial/magic/nature at 'will' on the battlefield, a force to be reckoned with)
Design can follow the idea of: Keeping it simple!
References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua#Relation_to_other_principles (Bagua principles)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_King#Dragon_Kings_of_the_Four_Seas (Dragons of 4 elements/seasons/seas)

Rough Yin/Yang Concept:

F1 Justice (6second stance, 12sec recharge): "Manifest inner fire onto yourself burning enemies in your path" -> when active, burn an area around you (1-second pulsing interval) + every hit causes burning, lose ability to critical hit, self-burn/damage aftereffects? etc.

F2 Resolve (6second stance, 20sec recharge): "Channel the flow of rivers and the Jade sea onto yourself" -> Immune to all conditions, +1000 healing power, but minus 100% boon duration & minus 50% power/condi damage etc.

F3 Courage (6second stance, 30sec recharge): "Envelop yourself with (GW1) Kinetic armor of earth" -> +1000 toughness, immune to stun/critical hits, refreshes at an interval on hit, aftereffect or drawback could be minus 25% endurance/movement speed, minus 25% health etc. (GW1 Stone Sheath)

F4 Virtue (unique stance only for the willbender maybe?)

Notes:

Virtues: Core guardian mechanics already very well done, active + passive are already opposing states, keep them as is
Willbender Flames: keep these as a secondary effect whenever virtues are active (tweak the size/shape/effects based on traits)
Willbender Traits: Yin/Yang concept already present, maybe the above can be integrated to avoid overpowered effects from virtues

Conclusion:

What this does is 'simplify' virtues' effects, every 'buff' has an drawback/opposite effect, players can time these effects in combat & create very unique builds around any of the 3 or 4 Virtues
Player can now choose or 'build' their Guardian based on the trinity (DPS? Healer? Nuker? Mix of all 3 maybe?)
The 2 weapon sets can now be strategically equipped/crafted + adjusted in stats
Unique builds would also encourage team work in any game mode

Edited August 20, 2021 by Woop S.7851

Ghostkat.9580 · August 20, 2021

1 hour ago, Woop S.7851 said:

After much testing, I see the rough idea/direction was to:

Create a martial arts themed elite spec

Have Virtues as stances

Yin/Yang effect for balance

In other words:

Fight using 'stances' like a Warrior

while "bending" elements of 'virtue' like a Elementalist at 'will' (GW1: Warrior/Monk, Warrior/Ele)?

Hence: the core concept of 'virtues' as a mechanic needs unpacking, once set, it'd then makes sense to design traits/weapon skills & utilities around it (multiple combinations & variants for unique builds)

Lore:

"Guardians of Cantha are now able to 'will' the power of celestials through the heavens while manifesting them as lethal stances in combat"

Concept/Mechanics:

Opposing 5 forces of nature (金木水火土) imbued in virtues

(A Guardian that 'bends' celestial/magic/nature at 'will' on the battlefield, a force to be reckoned with)

Design can follow the idea of: Keeping it simple!

References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua#Relation_to_other_principles (Bagua principles)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_King#Dragon_Kings_of_the_Four_Seas (Dragons of 4 elements/seasons/seas)

Rough Yin/Yang Concept:

F1 Justice (6second stance, 12sec recharge): "Manifest inner fire onto yourself burning enemies in your path" -> when active, burn an area around you (1-second pulsing interval) + every hit causes burning, lose ability to critical hit, self-burn/damage aftereffects? etc.

F2 Resolve (6second stance, 20sec recharge): "Channel the flow of rivers and the Jade sea onto yourself" -> Immune to all conditions, +1000 healing power, but minus 100% boon duration & minus 50% power/condi damage etc.

F3 Courage (6second stance, 30sec recharge): "Envelop yourself with (GW1) Kinetic armor of earth" -> +1000 toughness, immune to stun/critical hits, refreshes at an interval on hit, aftereffect or drawback could be minus 25% endurance/movement speed, minus 25% health etc. (GW1 Stone Sheath)

F4 Virtue (unique stance only for the willbender maybe?)

Notes:

Virtues: Core guardian mechanics already very well done, active + passive are already opposing states, keep them as is

Willbender Flames: keep these as a secondary effect whenever virtues are active (tweak the size/shape/effects based on traits)

Willbender Traits: Yin/Yang concept already present, maybe the above can be integrated to avoid overpowered effects from virtues

Conclusion:

What this does is 'simplify' virtues' effects, every 'buff' has an drawback/opposite effect, players can time these effects in combat & create very unique builds around any of the 3 or 4 Virtues

Player can now choose or 'build' their Guardian based on the trinity (DPS? Healer? Nuker? Mix of all 3 maybe?)

The 2 weapon sets can now be strategically equipped/crafted + adjusted in stats

Unique builds would also encourage team work in any game mode

You're basically giving every reason for why the martial artist should be Elementalist instead... which is a GOOD reasoning, especially considering flaming rising dragon uppercuts (shoryuken), lightning-imbued power charge-ups and tornado kicks are the sort of thing that's just a major staple of not only fighting games and shonen anime, but also quite literally every Far East Asian MMORPG out there with a martial arts specialization. There isn't one without an element-swapping mechanic. And it makes too much sense, too, so it's not a staple of that stuff without good reason, on top of the fact that it looks really cool.

The spinning kick move Willbender uses as a new utility skill is from Street Fighter, where it is used by shoto characters like Ryu, Ken and Akuma, and is called the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. Tatsumaki literally means "tornado" or "dragon twister" in Japanese, though the move is more commonly referred to in English as the "Hurricane Kick,". Either way, even in the name alone, it evokes the elements.

Your first video link is from Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba, and in the most recent movie, they explain the 5-element system that the Demon Slayer Corps uses: Earth, Fire, Wind, Water and Thunder. This donghua (Chinese anime) called Wuxan Wuxing (Fog Hill of Five Elements) uses the standard Taoist five elements of Wuxing (click the red text to see the diagram, which would make such a perfect elite specialization gauge for elemental interactions), Earth, Fire, Wood, Water and Metal. Each of the warriors in the show's intro is a master of one of the five. When the five elements are in harmony, you get Yin and Yang.

Conceptually, I see this as a cool system of chakra-routing by way of elements, where if all 5 elements are lit up as a resource, you enter a state not unlike Ultra Instinct where your moves are powered up, but you can also spend each elemental chakra to perform certain super moves as needed, not unlike a Tempest's Overflow mechanic.

Let's also not forget the super popular "Avatar: The Last Airbender,".

This video has 10k likes and less than 70 dislikes at the time of the making of this post for good reason. And let's not forget that the Demon Slayer movie (which I would attest to being trash even by the show's standards) was still popular enough to become the highest-grossing film PERIOD in 2020 (it was theater-exclusive at the time, too; people braved a kitten plague in large enough numbers to make it more profitable than movies being streamed) and is the highest-grossing anime film of all time. Based on data like that, it's not too much of an assumption to say this stuff is popular enough that if GW2 did these things for Elementalist, they'd be looking at a massive bump in the player population and more money than their current dev team would know what to do with. It might not be for everyone, but we're in the Far East Asian-themed expansion, and its popularity internationally cannot be understated from a business perspective.

Your stance basically supports what I've been saying all along... let Guardian be Guardian and move all the martial arts and element stuff to a dual-Focus-wielding Elementalist. This stuff is a multi-billion-dollar industry internationally for good reason, so it would really be a huge misstep to not have this when a) Guild Wars 2 has the best element-swapping system in any MMO right now, which is currently holding the competition back (Square Enix cannot for the life of them figure out how to fix their botched elemental stances on Monk in Final Fantasy XIV, so what a golden opportunity this would be to show them how it's done and encourage their Monk players to come over and play this instead... partly how I myself got into this game, expecting ANet wouldn't be stupid enough to not take this golden opportunity), and b) it's the Far East Asian-themed expansion, so as the saying goes, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do,". I shudder to think how ridiculous it would be for ANet to not do this and how many potential players it is likely to alienate in the process.

Now imagine, if we had a fists/dual-focus Elementalist, and ANet decided to break down the silly restriction of weapon exclusivity in the elite specs (that is to say, if you unlocked Weaver, you should be able to use sword on ANY specialization you choose), you could have your Demon Slayer-style power fantasy of elementally-imbued katanas if you so wish, in a way that Weaver's current elemental usage cannot provide. Meanwhile, fans of more Far East Asian-style hand-to-hand combat would get to have their fun, too. Everyone can be happy. 🙂 How stupid, by comparison, would it be, if Ele got... I dunno.. HAMMER instead, like the datamine indicated? Wow, that'd be an unfortunate missed opportunity, now wouldn't it?

I shudder to think how they got the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku from Street Fighter, but they didn't take a look at Ken from Street Fighter with his fists on fire, and then at other games that use other elements, and say "well golly gee... this would make for a fine Elementalist!"

NCSoft also has a Kung Fu Master with its OTHER Free-To-Play MMORPG, Blade & Soul, so it's not like ANet's parent company is oblivious to this...

or the fact that a certain other major South Korean MMORPG similarly has elemental fist stances. Wouldn't it be interesting if it happened to have a water dragon themed elemental specialization for a martial arts class?

... oh wait.

I'm pretty sure we already have the armour skins in-game to make this character in the above video, too.

It makes too much sense to make the Elementalist the martial artist, but then out come from the woodworks all the old GW1 players who will be all like "but... but... muh guild wars one monk... and guardian is kinda like a monk (even though monk wore light armour and guardian wears heavy armour)... so it should be on guardian! Why does it have to be like every other game?" Maybe because that was 15 years ago with that game's technical limitations and a different time when Westerners got away with more culturally ignorant stuff they can't in 2021, and because the state of the market now shows this stuff makes billions of dollars because people think it's cool. If there's a demand and you're refusing to supply that demand because you want to be different for different's sake... well, that's just stupid, purely speaking from a business perspective.

Not to mention, that while I appreciate the sentiment of trying to integrate those two anyway because of Canthan lore, when in your game design the different things you're tossing in blend about as well as oil and water, you need to stop using the lore as an excuse for poor game design decisions.

On top of that, when new players are eyeing EoD with interest because they're into Far East Asian stuff, they don't know the lore yet, so they don't care about any of that stuff. What they're going to do is ask on Reddit, "does this game have the thing I want to play?" (e.g. a "samurai" or something like "black belt/monk" from Final Fantasy or other games with martial artist classes). If the answer they get is "well kind of/not exactly," the immediate response you're going to get from them is "thanks very much for the info... I'm going to play a different game,".

Not a great way to retain players or get new ones, if an idea is popular enough to make mega-money and in the expansion where thematically it's appropriate to finally make it playable, you decide that instead you want to be unique. Who looks at a potential hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of free money and says "... nah, I'm good,"? Someone who shouldn't be running a business where they're devs have consistently said on the forums that budget and resource limitations have held them back in bringing features to the game that people want to see. So not having this... is not a smart move. I, for one, am not a fan of financially supporting a company that just intends to kitten away resources on NOT doing the obvious thing that would rake in hundreds of thousands of easy dollars. Expectations are expectations for a reason, especially when we're talking about an expansion themed on an entire region of the globe where certain things are proven to be profitable and they don't really care much about Western sensibilities.

Anyway...

To me, the way to fix Willbender (which I keep calling WillBREAKER, because it's just a cooler-sounding name and very a propos of the Canthan Zealots 😛 ) is not so much to adjust anything on the trait lines or alter how the three virtues behave, but instead to bring it back to the core identity of Guardian. How do we do this? Easily:

Step 1: Remove all the martial arts utility moves and the elite skill, as well as the shadow step move, since while they're cool-looking, they're ill-fitting and muddy up the class identity. Let Guardian be Guardian, instead of trying to force it to be 3 distinct things (Guardian, Thief AND the martial artist that should really be Elementalist anyway). Not to mention, the elite skill isn't really useful, nor does it live up to an ELITE skill, and would serve a better role as a fire form skill on a dedicated martial artist Elementalist anyway.

Step 2: Replace the removed Shadow Step with a parry/counter move, similar to what Mesmer had. You can give it a lot of damage, but it's the sort of thing where you have to block an incoming hit first, before the powerful attack comes out. This helps to restore some Guardian identity as Guardian is supposed to be more defensive between it and Warrior.

By removing the Shadow Step, you don't step on Thief mains' toes by encroaching on the Thief identity, so you alienate fewer people and keep more happy. 🙂

Step 3: Replace the missing utility skills and elite skill with more Guardian-appropriate ones.

Step 4: Move the removed martial arts skills to their own elite specialization that has that singular identity.

Overall, Willbender could still be Willbender, and it doesn't compromise that identity just by replacing those things. The reason we replace them is because those abilities compete with the class identity. Instead of trying to make Guardian have 3 different identities that compete with one another, we need to focus it on being one thing and doing that one thing really well. Trying to make it a jack-of-all-trades spec (when Firebrand already does that too well anyway) is just going to dilute all the elements you toss into it.

Necro's Harbinger has the exact same issue. It's trying to be 5 different things at once, and all of them get diluted, leading to it looking cool to pew pew with for a few minutes until realizing that it does all of those things pretty poorly/underwhelmingly. Each one of those ideas should be its own specialization with a focus on doing whatever its schtick is really well, instead of feeling like in concept it was yanked in multiple directions out of indecision.

I worry all the specializations are going to be like that, 3-5 competing ideas instead of just focusing on one idea and making that solid. I say, delay the expansion another 6 months, don't do the next beta whenever it was planned for, and go back to the drawing board on the specializations. Ascertain whether or not some of the upcoming ones are really appropriate to have for the Far East Asian expansion or if maybe it'd be better to hold off on the Dark Knight fetish of putting Greatsword on Rev until the next expansion where it might be more thematically appropriate. Unless this really will be the end of Guild Wars 2, there's no reason to give into that demand NOW, when several other weapons (i.e. focus, longbow, etc.) are horribly under-represented.

Guardian, I worry, will be the least offensive in this regard, because at least having two swords gives it a Samurai-esque identity. Okay, cool. Make it the samurai class, and it can have a righteous identity. But pistol on warrior? Is it a good idea to squander the potential of the Far East Asian-themed expansion by making a gun-toting Warrior? No. You can give it lots of martial arts moves to try and force it to be more thematically appropriate, but you're just going to run into the same problem here. We all get the gun-kata Equilibrium reference, but that's like what a 12-year-old thinks would make it "cool," not what I'd expect from professional game designers working in the entertainment industry. It'd be much better to make Warrior whatever one singular idea and let the martial artist be its own thing, instead of trying to pepper the martial arts into everything else.

Perhaps a two-handed polearm weapon, such as... oh, I don't know... THE SPEAR (aka the king of all Chinese weapons) would be a more appropriate option, but something tells me ANet is a bit too unfocused with these. They're over-eager to make everything do anything and advertise it like "it slices, it dices, it cooks, it cleans, it does your taxes," to make it seem godly and then we try it and realize they're doing too much at once. These don't have to be swiss army knives that do 12 things really poorly, and/or compete with or become redundant to other classes. Just focus on what people might want to see in the Far East Asian-themed expansion, and make it do that one thing as best as they can.

This is how you retain class identity.

I think ANet should not move forward with the next beta whenever it was planned. Instead of trying to forcibly convince us that maybe the other specs will be cool in their own right, I'd prefer it they took an earnest step back and re-evaluate their design philosophy with these, because I'm pretty sure these sorts of issues are things we'll see across the board. I doubt they'd be able to maintain their current release date and redo all their elite specs (unless they started right now and devoted their resources to doing so) but once they release the names and images of the specs for marketing... it's too late to reverse course.

So delay the next beta, and don't reveal anything else. Take a moment to re-evaluate everything. Virtuoso is okay (but indicates its own worries), Willbreaker can keep its identity even if you replace the shadow step and the utility and elite skills with totally different things, Harbinger is Willbreaker's problems on steroids, and the weapons leaked in the data mines indicate that the issues will get gradually worse and worse and worse.

Stop. Just... stop. Go back to the drawing board. Take a 6-month extension if you have to. Otherwise... devote all your resources to revamping whatever the next six are, because something tells me that these three are going to be the least problematic, and the worst offenders have yet to come.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Ghostkat.9580

cat.8975 · August 20, 2021

Assortment of random thoughts from a PvE perspective, as someone who has played just about every flavor of dps guardian:

Criticisms

Heel Crack (util) seems to be useless in all gamemodes. 2s stun on a 15s cd with low damage is competing with so many better utilities.
Heaven's Palm (elite) feels underwhelming, though I can't say I haven't enjoyed having the extra 400 CC. Giving it some more damage+burning would be sick
Rushing Justice (f1) has an awkward pause between the dash and the WBF portions, and the overall cast time seems to vary quite a bit based on distance from the target. I've gotten used to it already, but it's definitely janky. On a side note, I wish it had a little bit of extra physical damage and/or burning on the active punch (not the pulsing aoe), just to give some extra benefit to places where you can get resets from kills (doesn't seem strong enough to cast asap when you get resets right now).
Lethal Tempo (gm minor damage mod) only applies to "strike" damage. If it were all damage, hybrid would be competitive with existing dps specs.
Restorative Virtues (master major 1) seems pretty useless atm, other than the extra bit of mobility spam it gives you. The self-heal on WBF is generally better. The fact that you only benefit from this trait when you spam virtues in quick succession is antithetical to how the rest of the spec plays out.
Boon Pact (adept major 1) could maybe give more concentration. That -50% outgoing is a huge loss.
Conceited Curate (adept major 3) is in a similar boat. Instead of +240 healing power, I think some +% self-healing mod would be better.
Off-hand sword abilities either need shorter cds or faster casts/aftercasts. Something to at least distinguish it from the DH/core playstyles a little more. The fact that focus is stronger in power builds should say enough here.

Works well

Power builds seem to perform slightly better than dragonhunter, which is fair considering the more "selfish" virtues and glassier nature of the spec. -240 toughness for ~1k more dps over DH is more than fair IMO.
People are sleeping on just how good the F2 and F3 really are for PvE. They may not be as life-saving as DH or FB virtues can be, but holy hell you can pump out some serious self-heals or aegis/stab spam, on top of the hyper-mobility it gives you and the evade on the f2
The alacrity trait feels solid for solo play in a power build. Probably good with cele, haven't had the opportunity to try it yet.
Whirling Light, Roiling Light, and Flash Combo (utils) are great and all have good use-cases. The strike damage on Whirling could be upped a touch just so it's better than FC in power builds (damage vs mobility tradeoff), but otherwise these utils are terrific.
The hybrid build playstyle is incredibly fun and active. Sw/T + GS? 2015 called, they want their dungeon meta back. It's satisfying when a class is allowed and encouraged to use whirl finishers in their own fields (possible thanks to the recent change). Good cleave and hyper-mobility allows you to stick to mobile PvE mobs/bosses in a purely melee build. It's great fun.
The potential for a "healer dps" build to exist via the f2 share in the Virtues line is there, and I can't wait to see people refine and run it as an off-healer in strikes/raids/open world content.

Overall, I've been having a blast playing this in fractals.

Satiety.8529 · August 20, 2021

The concept behind Willbender has some fantastic ideas, I've enjoyed playing every minute of it. There was a noteworthy concern I found while playing though.

The animations and ideas form a package, I'm very much reminded of existing Elite specs or base class features being borrowed heavily to make up the Willbender identity and steer it away from core Guardian. While not necessarily a bad thing, there is a visibly threatened fine line between individuality and homogeny.

The very same acrobatic and martial arts driven yin-yang theme aesthetic is easily more suited on several other classes like Elementalist, Revenant and, arguably, Thief, who could execute it in a more cohesive manner without bending the original class identity. The more I look at Willbender, the more I start to see other class features poking through:

- stance (virtue) dancing

- shadowstep mobility

- agile multi-striking

And the more I am reminded of another Elite spec on the same class, Dragonhunter, who made frequent and loving glances at core Ranger when adding traps into their utility skill set.

I very much support the idea of the new Elite spec which will breathe a different sort of energy into Guardian, but this Willbender concept as it is now doesn't appeal as the correct way to do it. There are great ideas here which, unfortunately, do clash with, not enhance, the Guardian at the base form.

The will of resolve shall be bent, but not broken. Keep up the good work otherwise Anet.

Ghostkat.9580 · August 20, 2021

1 minute ago, Satiety.8529 said:

The very same acrobatic and martial arts driven yin-yang theme aesthetic is easily more suited on several other classes like Elementalist, Revenant and, arguably, Thief, who could execute it in a more cohesive manner without bending the original class identity. The more I look at Willbender, the more I start to see other class features poking through:

- stance (virtue) dancing

- shadowstep mobility

- agile multi-striking

I very much support the idea of the new Elite spec which will breathe a different sort of energy into Guardian, but this Willbender concept as it is now doesn't appeal as the correct way to do it. There are great ideas here which, unfortunately, do clash with, not enhance, the Guardian at the base form.

I agree wholeheartedly on everything you wrote. The way, to me, to prevent the clashing is to separate out those parts - which have separate identities that combine as well as oil and water, and put them into their own elite specs built around those singular identities, instead of trying to do too much at once.

Stance-dancing is what the Elementalist and Revenant do. The martial arts moves are best suited for Elementalist due to thematic appropriateness and also major trends in popular culture for a Far East Asian expansion. Refer to my previous post for video footage on what that looks like, including from another MMORPG, as all martial artists classes coming out of Far East Asian MMOs all have elemental stance-dancing.

I agree it does not work well to force that upon the virtue system, instead of just letting this be a samurai. All martial arts moves should be moved to Elementalist and should be replaced on Willbender with more Guardian-appropriate moves.
Agreed that shadowstepping is unnecessary considering how much mobility Guardians already have, not to mention the Greatsword already has a teleport move. In order to maintain class identity, I recommend a counter move instead that does high damage. This would also prevent shadowstepping from encroaching on Thief's identity.
On the subject of agile multi-striking, agreed. I refer back to my previous two points, which is where those belong. I reiterate that I think a more parry-focused gameplay or Samurai-focused style that rewards damage for patience is a far superior identity than "Brrrrrrrr lookie I'm Thief Firebrand but not as good as either! Notice meeee!!!!!!!"

ArtimisTau.7902 · August 20, 2021

There's 13 pages of comments at this point so I haven't read every idea people have come up with but here's a possible solution to virtues. No passive and only one virtue at a time, as it works now. But, make the activated virtue endless and increase the hits to trigger to 8. Currently they only last 6 seconds, which means you can typically trigger a virtue effect 2-4 times before it runs out depending on how rapid you can hit. Symbols and the Willbender's attack are pretty rapid. Making them endless would trigger less often but more consistent. Cool downs could also be longer for when you decide to, or have to swap. The offensive Justice to a more defensive Resolve when you suddenly get hit real hard for example.

Edit: It occurred to me as I was eating lunch that the activation "attacks" of each virtue are pretty useful and a person may want to actually use them more than once. So to expand on my original idea, each virtue would have a longer cool down, say 30 seconds, when you change from one to another. And a shorter cooldown, say 10-15 seconds to re-use the "attack/activation" of a virtue. For example, a player camps in Justice for the extra burning every 8 attacks. That player could re-activate Justice for the dash uppercut and Willbender's Flames effect every 10 seconds.

Edited August 20, 2021 by ArtimisTau.7902
Expanded explanation

Ghostkat.9580 · August 20, 2021

1 hour ago, ArtimisTau.7902 said:

There's 13 pages of comments at this point so I haven't read every idea people have come up with but here's a possible solution to virtues. No passive and only one virtue at a time, as it works now. But, make the activated virtue endless and increase the hits to trigger to 8. Currently they only last 6 seconds, which means you can typically trigger a virtue effect 2-4 times before it runs out depending on how rapid you can hit. Symbols and the Willbender's attack are pretty rapid. Making them endless would trigger less often but more consistent. Cool downs could also be longer for when you decide to, or have to swap. The offensive Justice to a more defensive Resolve when you suddenly get hit real hard for example.

Edit: It occurred to me as I was eating lunch that the activation "attacks" of each virtue are pretty useful and a person may want to actually use them more than once. So to expand on my original idea, each virtue would have a longer cool down, say 30 seconds, when you change from one to another. And a shorter cooldown, say 10-15 seconds to re-use the "attack/activation" of a virtue. For example, a player camps in Justice for the extra burning every 8 attacks. That player could re-activate Justice for the dash uppercut and Willbender's Flames effect every 10 seconds.

I think this sort of thing works if you swap out the newer utility skills with some of the old core Guardian ones that can hit multiple times while you're doing other things, for example, the spirit sword, and then trait for you to have 4 charges of it instead of 3.

What worries me about how it's built right now is, you are pretty much forced to use it along with the new martial arts utility skills so you can get those hits in and make the most of how they're built, and also forces you to play the Willbender in a few very specific ways to get the most out of it. This, to me, defeats the purpose of having choice for the utility skills.

Yet another reason why I think it would be better to just remove all the martial arts stuff and put that on its own elite specialization where it's thematically appropriate, like a dedicated martial arts elite spec. Let the Willbender have more Guardian-y utility skills and a new elite skill. Then what you suggested works just fine, but right now it feels very pidgeon-holed into a very specific kind of gameplay.

Harbinger similarly has the "go into Shroud and then spam this one skill" issue, and Virtuoso also feels very limited because ultimately you have a restricted gameplay loop based around getting your daggers up as quickly as possible. I don't think that's good design.

Once again, I think restricting down the elite specs to one singular theme that they each do really well is the way to go, and then what you suggested seems like a good suggestion. Not so much when the gameplay currently feels far too restrictive due to these specs trying to do 3-5 things at once, and to get the most out of them, you have to pidgeon-hole the way you play them down to 1 or 2 restrictive gameplay styles.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Ghostkat.9580

Ghostkat.9580 · August 20, 2021

14 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I previously replied to this thread a few hours after the spec speaking on my initial reactions. I said many of the issues I was experiencing were most likely L2P (yes, you can say l2p to yourself, it’s possible), and that I had no specific recommendations. I have since played significantly more on willbender. So I will be listing my more educated feedback and recommendations in this comment.

Once again, this is mostly roaming in WvW small group/solo (mostly solo) and dueling in armistice.

The Virtues:

Overall Changes:

The virtues need to have active effect on every hit while the stance is active rather than every fifth hit. It gives a more burst oriented gameplay (the only way this spec works from my time on it), and creates real trade offs for switching stances sooner. Right now, I really don’t care if the stance is active or not because it changes nothing. Every 5th hit/normal pacing simply doesn’t work.
For example; Justice stance applies .5 sec burn every hit, Resolve Stance heals 300 for every hit, Courage stance applies 1.5 sec protection (or aegis, which would require a lower duration total, like 1 or .5s) for every hit.
Don't have the Willbender flames cancel other willbender flames. The way the class plays, you have to constantly be using mobility skills in competitive, meaning the Willbender flames are around for very little time. It removes a degree of battlefield control that the class could really use imo to increase its ability to outmaneuver opponents. Instead, maybe have different flame effects based on the active stance. For example; while justice is active, Willbender flames grant you might when hitting an enemy, while Resolve is active flames chill enemies they hit, while Courage is active flames grant you aegis when hitting a foe. This gives better control effects without requiring a more stagnant play style (like standing in flames, like symbols require). That’s just an off-the-cuff idea, but some way to keep the flames and enhance their effect to increase sustain would probably be beneficial.

F1

Feedback: The F1 is bad. The mobility is cool and all, but losing active blind (on core) or the utility of spear in exchange for some mobility, a VERY lackluster damage, and a tiny AoE that does nothing in competitive modes is simply not a good trade off. Additionally, the passive only activating while the stance is active is a straight downgrade. The long aftercast/second cast time between the dash and the punch makes it so you can literally walk away from the attack (tested in armistice). The range of the punch is minuscule, making it rarely connect as a stand alone skill, which is what I would want from a mobility skill. Sword 2 is better. The damage is also terrible. Within the confines of what was provided, against glass FA ele it would maybe crit 2k, ik not sure it even got that high.
Recommendations: There’s a variety of ways this could change. The absolutely necessary change is to increase the speed with which the punch is executed. It can’t have that long of an after cast, and it can’t take that long. I’m pretty sure it’s killed me being stuck in the animation more times than I’ve actually landed it on a non-CC’d opponent (only slightly exaggerating).
The damage needs to be higher on this skill. The initial hit is where most of the damage comes from right now, and it’s a paltry damage value. A damage value near Rush would work better considering it’s a pretty straightforward dash as well.
Will bender flames need some changes. First, the flames need to be MUCH larger. In competitive modes it is tiny, and completely avoidable. Not that going in them actually does anything really. The damage should be around symbol level, if not more (considering it’s a class mechanic focused on damage). In its current state, they aren’t something to avoid because it’s ignorable. I do REALLY like that the willbender flames scale to power damage though. That is a fantastic add.
Making it a leap finisher would add more utility, especially since light aura pairs extremely well with the radiance line for power builds.

F2

Feedback: Overall, it’s pretty good. The main thing is the stance effect needs to be better. Other than that, it’s pretty good. Not exceptional, but not terrible. Adding a better sustain component to it would be nice, since willbender is EXTREMELY squishy.

Recommendations: Change stance effects. Add a larger Willbender flame effect. Again, if these are supposed to be an impactful part of the class, they should be made relevant in some way. Maybe a way to link these would be to add a healing effect to standing in willbender flames? I don’t know, overall the F2 is not bad at all.

F3

Feedback: Again, this one isn’t bad. It’s a teleport which is great, but the pathing of it is as a dash or leap. I tried to port through a Test of Faith, as I would with sword 2 or JI, and I took 8k damage. That was not fun.
Recommendations: This needs more range. Not a lot more, but more. I find myself always being about 100 range short of the skills range in the natural flow of combat. Usually it’s another class using an evasive skill to separate, I want to keep pressure, but their evasive skill just out distances the effect. That’s not good, because if I use it, I’ll be locked in an animation ripe for being bursted as it completes. Forcing the opponent to dodger with the actual skill would really change the dynamics. This part might be partially L2P, but I still think the range needs maybe 200-300 more so it can actually apply good pressure.

Sword 4:

Feedback: This skill is just bad. I don’t mean it’s bad because I want it to be OP, it’s bad compared to other similar skills that already exist in the game. Warrior’s Axe 4 does more damage without a precursor hit, with a faster cast time, no secondary cast time, and applies quickness. Landing this skill is so difficult, and is not rewarding in any way. The big hits are critting 1.7k against the zerk Mesmer I tested it in. That’s 3.4K damage for a 3/4 sec cast time on a non-aoe melee skill (also known as bad). There’s a few ways to fix this.

Recommendations: If you keep the precursor strike, have the precursor strike apply super speed, so that I can keep up with the opponent. Even when the precursor hits, if I have cripple or chill, they will walk out of the actual damage. This also lets you proc the skill off of one enemy, and actually hit another, adding a more dynamic play style and increasing mobility (which is the whole point). Then increase the damage. It should be hitting more like 4-6k total (if all strikes land) rather than 3k given its cast time.
If the precursor strike is removed, increase damage and reduce the cast time dramatically.
As is, it’s clunky and slow and not really worth using many times. I love landing it in combat, because it FEELS like it will be impactful, but then it doesn’t really do much. I honestly don’t mind the precursor strike, it just needs a LOT more impact.

Sword 5

Feedback: This skill is useful. The dash portion is kinda slow, and can make you eat some damage, but the skill isn’t bad. The Slow and Immob are great, and makes landing it feel rewarding.
Recommendation: A slightly faster dash portion would be nice. Not necessary, but nice. The range is too small, should be increased a bit. Something like 100 more range on the dash, then 100 range on the teleport threshold would work well. It’s, once again, one of those skills that always feels like it comes up just a LITTLE too short.

Heal

Feedback: I ditched this after about 5 hours of duels. It is unreliable, slightly buggy, and doesn’t have much impact. The other heals, mostly trained Litany of Wrath (my preferred heal) and Shelter (meta heal), are better.
Recommendation: I still don’t know what to do with this. Maybe make it a full channel block, then at the end, heal for X amount if you take damage, then convert Y% of the damage taken into barrier. If the damage would’ve been lethal, heal for Z (a value larger than X). Or it could be a stance-type effect so you can keep using abilities while it’s active, to differentiate from Shelter.
I honestly don’t know what to do with this heal. The foundation is AWESOME. As a Spell main, I love the instant cast counter play that has the ability to turn the tide of a fight. This has that idea, but it simply didn’t turn the tide of anything. Just switching out the heal to Litany or Shelter drastically improved the cadence and survivability ability of the spec. Also add some sort of coupling with will bender flames. Again, if this is a part of the class mechanic, it needs to be stronger. Right now it’s mostly a visual effect imo.

Utilities:

They are decent, but lack a certain pack. The evade back+cc is the best imo (I am writing this after having written everything else and don’t have the skills in front of me anymore), some immob on the flip skill would help give the class some better setup. The whirling kick can burst some damage pretty fast, but is pretty vulnerable in a competitive setting, overall not bad. The rest are alright, but I wouldn’t take them over some other existing utilities if I’m trying to be as effective as possible.
Recommendations: Add some sort of will bender flame tie in to these utilities. There’s a lot that could be done with willbender flames to make it impactful, but, as I previously stated, in competitive it just feels like a visual effect (albeit a VERY cool looking visual).
for example; The whirling on could create a ring of willbender flames wherever is strikes enemies. The stun could create a cascade of Willbender flames behind the target if struck (a similar ground pattern and effect to Warrior’s Berserker Longbow F1, where it’s three rectangular boxes cascading outward). I feel like it would add a lot more impact to the utilities and make willbender flames actually fell useful, especially for controlling the field so you can position better, resulting in more sustain.

Traits: I will update this at a later time probably, I haven’t really looked at how they play as closely as I should have.

Overall: The Willbender is fun. It really is. Fighting other willbenders, Virt, and Harb is really fun. But it is very clearly underpowered when fighting current specs. It struggles in some regard vs everything. It’s damage is low, it’s sustain is low, it’s control potential is low. The only thing that is high is it’s mobility. Unlike others, I don’t think it needs a rework. A lot of the “completely unplayable” comments come from people who need to learn to play the espec how it can be played effectively rather than playing it like a typical guard, because it plays absolutely NOTHING like a normal guard (which I absolutely LOVE). The Espec has a ton of potential, has a very good base, but it seems like the design got too restrictive with trade offs (like cancelling will ended flames when new ones are created).

I will continue to update this comment as I continue to play exclusively will bender over the course of the beta. A final impressions will be added, as well as the Traits section.

I think ultimately a good chunk of the problems you mentioned in the "Overall" section could be solved by swapping out the utility skills and the elite skills with something more Guardian-related, and replacing the shadow step with a block/parry with a follow-up counter-attack that does massive damage. I feel like this is where a good 80% of the problems it has are coming from, aside from some adjustments to the virtues. It feels like certain things are pidgeon-holed around you using the kit a certain way that just drags it down.

Flames are cool and all, but if pushing the boundaries of what fire-themed moves can do, that should be the Elementalist's thing in fire mode. I kind of feel like pushing the fire stuff on Willbender to extremes just steps on Elementalist's toes for no reason, and considering I think all the martial arts skills should go to Ele anyway because they're undeniably more appropriate there for a laundry list of reasons, I think retaining focus on class identity and bringing some of the "Guardian" back in thematically is a better idea. I'm all down for something like the aforementioned counter/parry move I suggested having a big blue flame effect to support the idea that it's a source of massive damage, but as a counter move it feels more in line thematically with what Guardian's all about without stepping on another class's toes.

But let's lose the shadowstep as Guardian has enough of that and that starts to encroach on Thief's kit, and let's please keep this stuff on Ele where it rightfully belongs (note the fire aura/field at 1:45 in the first video, which we already have as an in-game mechanic):

Edited August 20, 2021 by Ghostkat.9580

Kilometal.6495 · August 20, 2021

After trying the class, here are the issues I have with this class:

Profession Mechanism:

Unequal trade off: The new specializations seem to promote the idea of trade-offs, or "Lose X to gain Y". Ideally X should be equal to or equivalent to Y, but with willbender spec, I find X greatly outweighs Y. Dragonhunters gain cast time or longer cooldown for modified or stronger active effect. Firebrand virtues have minor cast time and lose immediate effects in favour of tome skills that require commitment and lock out weapon skills. With willbenders, they have these drawbacks:

loss of passive effects: probably the biggest and the most obvious drawback
Cast time: a minor one, but it is there
Require commitment to one virtue as activating another virtue cancels the first one. It does not promote tactical choice. Instead, it limits them.
Require multi-hit combos to fully enjoy the benefits of activated virtue: Another major drawback

And in return, it gains ..?

Willbender flames: It helps trigger virtue effect, but otherwise it feels like an inferior version of symbols, both in size and damage.
Movement. However, they are too short to make significant impact.
Justice, flowing resolve, and crashing courage: Justice feels like core passive with strike damage. Flowing resolve is only marginally better due to phoenix protocol. Courage is the only one that feels like an upgrade.

I feel that drawbacks need to be reconsidered such as removal of #3 and reduction of #4.

Now, on to individual profession skills:

F1: For some reasons, there are two cast bar, one before movement and one after movement. Hopefully it is an oversight because it makes clunky gameplay.
F2: It needs to be ground targeted instead of directional, or at least stop at first available target. It overshoots player if you cast it right next to your target, forcing you to walking back or use movement skills, reducing time for triggering flowing resolve.
F3: As mentioned above, the only virtue that feels right
Tooltips: All of them mention "Consecutive attacks do X", which is a confusing way of saying "Do X every 5/3 attacks". It is also inconsistent with the description on core passive "Burn foes every few attacks"

Weapon

With virtues that emphasize on multiple hits within short duration of time, the off-hand sword surprising lacks a multi-hit ability, especially on single target. I have better results of triggering virtue effects with torch and focus. This needs to be addressed as the spec weapon does not complement spec profession mechanics at all.

Skills

I don't have comments on utility skills, but I think the tooltips for Reversal of Fortune need work. It has the largest wall of text out of all skills in the entire game, with long sentences and lots of condition clauses. It could use a rewrite or a second paragraph.

Traits

T1 traits don't feel good. It is a problem when not picking a trait is an equally valid option. At least power for power sticks to the idea of "lose X and gain Y". The other two feel like "lose X and gain X". Another problem is they are mostly stat gain, so there is no little change to play style regardless your pick.

Other traits are alright, although I feel like restorative virtues should be baseline.

monpetit.9764 · August 20, 2021

Definitely my favorite out of the three, will probably roll Guardian in the expac a lot, lot more now.

~couple ideas/general feedback~
Perhaps give a combo field trait so we can do something else besides condi clear with our fields I think would be pretty interesting idea, would probably really complement this spec's DPS overall.
Reversal of fortune could maybe use some modifications, I'm not really sure. Using the virtues to distance and use it is a reliable safe way to also get a hit with it active, maybe it would be more interesting if we can cancel the blocking animation into another movement ability for the cost of a whole cooldown of the skill - often times the heal power of the skill might not be enough, opting for distance instead.

All virtues and utility skills with that whacky movement could maybe use some ability to be animation canceled if that isn't too much, perhaps it is in the developer teams opinions, I'm not sure how that idea is generally accepted.

I'm not sure if I would prefer the spinning kick-aoe ability to not track opponents, I would like it to also be a consistent get out tool if needed, even though it doesn't go that far/isn't quite that fast, it's something. Also my feelings on it tracking in PVP feels somewhat cheap tbh.

I was having a hard time finding more sustain in the class, without opting out of the virtue trait line, mixing as much aegis uptime as I can maybe muster to afford being able to do the animations and take less damage, as I feel most of the commitment to the classes skills are it's challenge. Maybe a trait that allows one more aegis after successful hits would be really fitting for the class, although maybe easily abused with quickness, and the riposte utility skill (I think?)
The ultimate gives no boons? Doesn't have to be stab, quickness or fury maybe?
Virtue 3 isn't a combo field although it clearly looks like one lol? Maybe fire?

The virtue trait messing with the passives/or maybe not to be said passives, and most things that mess with virtue passives that supposedly don't exist anymore(?) need more clarification on the descriptions of skills/traits during these synergies IMO

Edited August 21, 2021 by monpetit.9764
Was drunk initial post, feedback was too rude I cleaned it up :3

aelska.4609 · August 20, 2021

The more I think about it, the more I feel like Willbender should be the total opposite of what it is:

- Instead of giving him mobility to go to the enemy, it should have things to force the enemy to stay close to him: cripple, chill, damage or condi over time if the enemy is trying to get further away, etc. dispatched between new sword, virtues, utilities and traits.
Forcing the fight to be located around the willbender synergizes better with symbols and rooting attacks (sword #3, gs #2, hammer #2, spirit weapons, etc.).

- If "active/passive" virtues mechanic is kept -> passive should be the "on X hit gain Y" while active should be "do Z NOW".
- Survival options should be given in traits/utilities/virtues for, at least, self healing/break stun/damage mitigation/condi cleanse [anet tends to forget that guardians have none of that on basic weapon skills].

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