Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Psaro.6178]

I did around 10 hours of 1v1 duels against players with this spec.

Armor sets I tried:

Celestial: not as great as I thought it's be.
Carrion: Actually impressed. 1.3k hp heal a second. though power damage is lacking. Had lots of trouble with tanking hits against warriors.
Dire: Better version of Carrion.

A big problem with the class is the power coefficient.
With 2k power invested, pistol skills do around 400 damage which is very low.
I and the community were under the impression this would be a condi / power hybrid elite spec.
Even Harbinger shroud lacks power coefficient.

[Galmac.4680]

Shroud-5 would be nicer if it stays with you, not as fixed ground target. In WvW it is quite useless.

[Agrippa.1693]

After a lot of testing and benchmarking, I come up with the following regarding the Harbinger:

The GOOD:

• First and foremost, the design is great, it's filling that much desired role in which the Necro has always been the worst at, pretty much since launch back in 2012. It could (with the right numbers) be the absolute condi king in endgame content, which this class was always deprived off, and so much deserved to be. Obviously the punishing blight element is key here, cause being able to diss out so much DPS without a trade-off, was imo the main reason why Necro was always benching around that dreaded bottom-place, which we Necro players were always quite familiar with.
• Next to sheer (condi) DPS, it's also filling other much needed gaps like: mobility and even boonshare! Especially on the boonshare, it really looks like this spec is catered to PvE endgame content (like raids, t4 fractals, strikes, etc.)! Again, the one place, where Necro was well famous for underperforming most of its career (since 2012).
• Blight might not be that great in other content like Open World or PvP/WvW. Which is fine, cause it's not like the other Necro specs are really underperforming in those areas. Also, boonshare could still be a good option in PvP/WvW.
• Playstyle is a lot different from what we were used to with the other Necro specs. Much more active and fast paced. Again, exactly what the Necro was missing.
• Survivability! Normally people would put this in the "BAD" section, but I like it! It's a trade-off, you're not supposed to have great DPS and/or utility without a trade-off. And blight ... hampering your survivability a LOT, is actually one of the better designed ones, so far. Thanks ANet.
• Some don't like it, but I actually do like the simplicity of the trait design. Yes, they feel a bit lacklustre in design, but sometimes simplicity isn't a bad thing. KISS!
• (Condi) DPS Benchmark!!!! Wow, it literally tops the chart atm with something like 45k DPS at kitty ... Yay, finally a top DPS, which as a first time is actually NOT a bug 🙂. Please ANet ... Pretty PLEASE, keep it there! After so many years being the very bottom of the barrel, they now deserve that first spot ... at least for a while!

 

The BAD:

• POWER DPS .... You have a full traitline dedicated to power DPS augmentation and it's turning out to be terrible. Absolutely no-one will use the upper traitline with numbers and results like that! Reaper is in every regard a better choice ... so is every other Power DPS class, btw. And they all have much better survivability.
• Elixers are a bit underwhelming at the moment. Maybe because the traits are already simple in design, you don't want to have the utility skills be simple in design as well? And it's definitely very simple in design. Boons, stunbreak, condicleanse ... that's it. Imo ANet should add some more spice to it. Maybe adding some damage to it, or condi's, or maybe combo fields/finishers. And definitely longer durations of the boons. It's kinda low on boon duration at the moment imo. I myself actually only took them along for the added blight.
• It's a bit of a more mobile spec, but doesn't seem to have that many "avoidance" options available. Yes it has an evade skill now, and it has that one trait (in the terrible upper trait line) that offers stability, but it's still missing blocks, invulns and other real good "avoidance" stuff. I know it's not really supposed to be catered to PvP and WvW where "avoidance" is really important, but also in PvE it's important to have some, and thus remains the ONE big gap in the Necro's arsenal. Whereas many other gaps (like high dps benchmarks, mobility and boonshare) have now been closed with the Harbinger.

 

The UGLY:

• Elixer skill icons ...
• Why the pirate-hat 😄

Edited August 19, 2021 by Agrippa Oculus.3726

[Rym.1469]

One specific observation/suggestion: Defensive traits that activate on entering Shroud (protection, curses weakness) could instead activate on leaving Shroud for Harbinger. 

 

It is a backwards Necromancer spec where pressured it wants to leave Shroud, not as much as enter it, so it may flow better this way.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Rym.1469

[Asum.4960]

Additional thoughts after more extensive play:

If I'm completely honest, after some more time on the spec, as much as I like the speeding around on it - and as intoxicating inflated DPS numbers can temporarily be, if I had to describe Harbinger in short I'd say, "Imagine an objectively worse Scourge in almost every single way, except with some mobility and extra (benchmark) damage.".

Or alternatively, the poor mans Weaver, after damage is normalised. 

 

It's really fun right now because it's fresh and new, but it just feels so incredibly niche and played safe with way too many drawbacks stacked on top of each other that they forgot the bit that's supposed to be fun and unique and wow you.

Every aspect of Harbinger I look at, another profession or spec or skill comes to mind that does it at the very least almost as good but more, or usually better and more interestingly, without paying the massive prices that Harbinger has to for them, as especially those other comparable specs have sheer countless Quality of Life and Utility baked into them that Necro has been lacking since launch in favour of the massive effective HP Pool, which Harbinger now loses and then some. 

It works, it's playable.. but, that's kind of it. There isn't much finesse to it. 

 

Once the damage comes down and the newness wears off, there isn't much there.

 

Pistol:

I've been playing with Scepter on Necro since 9 years now (in 4 days), and after two days of Pistol, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I actually miss it already. 

Pistol somehow managed to be more bland. It doesn't have any cadence to the Auto Attack like Scepter has to keep up attention and interest to always complete the chain/never miss the last hit. It's not accompanied by distinct and unique or satisfying sound effects. 

You hold down Auto attack, shoot, it goes bang. That's it, the whole experience. 

Pistol 2 is just Shroud 2's little brother. The stun on 3 is nice, but again, non of these skills feel unique. 

"I shot a gun, I shot a gun again. Hey! I shot it again." As Colin would say. 

 

When they announced Pistol for Necro, thematically, I was already not thrilled, but I did have hope for finally a modern, interesting Main Hand for the class. Skill shots, short range cone attacks.. anything. 

But it's a gun, it shoots, it does damage, there is a stun. There is nothing more to it. 

Where Weaver got 50(!) skills with main hand sword, Harbinger gains 3, all of which, really, are the same. It doesn't even have an attack chain.

 

Shroud:

That theme continues with Harbinger Shroud, the movement skills which are great aside (except for the unthematic reused Daredevil Vault animation, which while I'm not entirely opposed to as practice, just does not fit Necro at all and in the context of the whole package feels like yet another corner cut). 

Shroud Auto is a better and faster Life Blast, but unfortunately it also lacks the feeling of impact and kick of it. That's theoretically fine and I enjoy it, but again, in context of the whole kit of Harbinger, it's just more shooting.

Shroud 2, once again great DPS and all.. but it's yet more projectiles to spam out. 

And that's the primary gameplay loop. Pistol auto, shoot, no attack chain to count and watch evolve, nothing you shoot.

Pistol 2, you shoot. Pistol 3, you shoot. Shroud 1, you shoot, Shroud 2, you shoot.

Shroud 5, kind of cool, but in the theme of the whole spec, it's been preemptively already been so crippled and played save that it kind of falls flat. A single easily avoidable hit in a extremely small range with a lengthy cast centered around you in melee. 

Not even speaking about PvP applications and how trying to jump into multiple foes will likely just have them Block/Stab/Invuln/Distort/Dodge/Stunbreak etc. to then instantly CC lock and vaporize you instead, I literally had PvE mobs accidentally avoid it frequently in testing while using perma Quickness, Dashing and/or jumping directly in with Shroud 3 and 4 and instantly casting Shroud 5 - and they managed to step out with accidental pathing more often than not. 

Even if the animation didn't bug out to not play more often than not, even if it wasn't bugged to not actually give any Life Force - it just doesn't quite feel right as this threatening big cast that you have to expose yourself for/are encouraged to jump right into the middle of multiple foes on such a squishy spec. It's not this big threatening area floating anyone entering or remaining for the duration. It's one little hit of a more than obvious cast in a tiny area around. It's played safe.. for anyone but the one using it - much like Harbinger as a whole.

 

Elixirs:

From the first time I saw them in the preview stream to after hours of playing around with it, I still don't have a single good thing to say about these. The whole "being allowed to make them extra powerful because they come with a drawback" is a joke. 

These are the absolute blandest and most lacklustre skills imaginable, and they don't fit into the kit whatsoever outside of the boon support line - the one Harbinger build that benefits the least from building Blight -, and even there they are lacklustre. 

All boons for mere seconds is a gimmick and the rest really aren't even worth mentioning, any tool you'll need in any gamemode that they provide, you'll find on another skill better, rather than having a drawback. If "Gain Quickness for 5 seconds, lose 10% maximum Health for 25 seconds" is the best out of the bunch, that says a lot. 

Their only use case is stacking Blight for the adept modifiers.

I genuinely can't even begin to imagine what happened here, from functionality to skill art, it's entirely uninspired. 

They feel like the side effects of the actual skills granting comparable tools to other, now vastly more innately tanky, specs while you actually forgot to add the interesting and powerful skill effects. 

Where are the reflect walls, the Condition conversions, the blinks, stealth, Invulnerabilities, etc., where are the things Harbinger's sacrifice over 80% of their effective HP for compared to other Necromancer specs, which was the only reason to not have any of that - which already was problematic to an extend on those? 

Why still no Utility access in this (non-)Shroud? 

 

It's not even a question of power level, we all know PoF specs are overblown and do too much at once - and I don't want a repeat of that, but just actually having fun with any varied tools to use and think about is where Harbinger, imo, falls fairly flat. 

Even if it where introduced in a vacuum without having to compete with PoF creep, it would still be too bland.

 

Traits: 

Passive damage mods, passive cool down reductions, passive stat conversion and passive damage auras, which basically is Desert Shroud, just 3 Torment every 3 seconds, rather than an active use 1 Torment every 1 second, with Barrier. 

The Quickness Aura is probably the highlight and something actually new to Necromancer's tool kit. But again, a passive Aura being the highlight probably says enough - and outside of group content as questionable Quickness support, it's a much worse Reaper's Onslaught. 

Elixir sharing could be exciting, but.. those Elixirs.

 

While I appreciate the build enabling idea of the Trait lines, they are bland in that they are exact copies of each other for either power or condi, providing the same playstyle - one of which is going to be superior and one useless. They don't come with different strengths and weaknesses for different niches, enabling different gameplay.

 

Additionally, making an extremely squishy sustain focused spec that needs to kite conflicts with then giving it Auras (along Shroud 5) that encourage jumping right into the fray, with no scaling defenses to make that viable outside of PvE group content. So it's conflicting design and useless at it's worst, bland damage increase at it's best. 

 

Forced Vitality on a minor because you wanted the spec to have more health but a specialisation mechanic to reduce maximum health by a percentage because you wanted it to have less health, cutting down the value of that Vitality? Why not reduce Blight to a more reasonable -1% HP per stack and a different minor Trait. 

Otherwise the minor is just there to fuel the optional Vit Conversions, which, once again, fairly bland and streamlined without any active, notable payoff.

 

In general, the Traits are severely lacklustre in terms of core Trait interactions due all being largely self contained passive modifiers or passive effects, and the power line especially seems dead on arrival as a poor, even less inspired version of the condi line, wasting 1/3 of the Traits. 

Non of these makes you go "Oooh, if I pick X and then I can do Y combined with Z", or alters your gameplay. You mostly just pick your (bland) flavour of extra DPS through passives. 

 

 While workable, it's a combination of bland and conflicting design, which isn't ideal.

 

In conclusion: 

If we compare Harbinger so similar specs, like the squishy but high DPS Weaver, we'll find that spec being supported by a robust core build around that Squishyness. From varied to interesting and engaging Weapon skills, to numerous Barrier or Invulnerability granting Off-Hands and Utilities, to evades, teleports - Weaver came with 4 Auto Attack chains, 38 unique weapon skills, and as mentioned, too many optional skills, like Stone Resonance or Lava Skin, supporting it's fragility to list. 

Harbinger shoots, shoots, and shoots some more, that's it. The Utilities? Some boons most other's get as side effects on actual skills, on top of a draw back of sacrificing maximum health. The total price? 80%+ of the professions whole defense that the entire profession is build around and rests on - in exchange for, granted, impressive damage levels, but that surely won't make it into the launch version.

On top of the same old Necromancer core off-hands that for the most part might as well just be stat sticks, especially in PvE. 

As I saw someone mention before, Harbinger would have genuinely been better off with the Pistol being the off-hand, with skill 2 and 3 becoming 4 and 5 on longer cooldowns, while remaining stuck on the same old, but somehow still more interesting Scepter. 

For the intended power Harbinger, things look even more dire, with neither a worthwhile off-hand, nor main-hand to choose from. 

 

The spec just comes off the shelf with too many drawbacks and limitations build in. The Shroud loss, no Barrier, no active and scaling defenses (besides a single 0.5 second evade) the Blight, everything being a projectiles, etc., and on top of that, still losing LF for taking damage - just in a way that doesn't directly protect you anymore. 

 

This elite specialisation, instead of opening the doors to a new world of possibilities, feels like a drastic narrowing down to do one thing and one thing only, major boss DPS, at the expense of almost everything else, besides the fun mobility bit and the passive quickness aura, while bland, being neat. 

 

While I have been a proponent of a Shroudless Necromancer that's allowed to have proper damage (and scalable defense..) since before even Reaper was a thing, it feels like whoever designed this spec was so afraid to give, and just kept on taking away instead. 

 

There is fun to be had with Harbinger, but it's really just the (currently) high damage numbers and the mobility skills. 

The Spec invalidated more Trait combinations and theory craft (such as Traits interacting with Fear) than it enables new ones, since everything is a largely self contained passive modifier/aura. 

There are no twists and turns or finesse, no interesting Blight interactions, no skill flip overs or alternate effects, no unique and interesting Trait or skill combinations/interactions.

 

The more I test it, the more little cracks I spot everywhere - with despite higher numbers on paper, actually performing worse - or in some niche cases just slightly better at best (but also way more bland), in practice than already existing alternatives, while suffering vast downsides and limitations by design on top already.

Once the new shine wears off and we've all been holding down one and spamming two for a month or two, it's going to get old real quick, and there isn't much more to Harbinger in this state than that. 

 

TL;DR:

Ask yourself, what makes Harbinger unique?

What's the first thing you tell people about that it does (aside from currently inflated damage numbers)?

If the first, or maybe even only thing, that came to mind was losing Shroud as Health and/or Blight, the two major drawbacks of the spec - rather than something the spec actually can and does do.. yea.

 

I feel like most positives about this spec are fairly heavily blinded to the bland and contradicting design by inflated beta performance. 

Neither the Pistol, Elixir's or Traits do anything particularly interesting or fun or, aside from (lacklustre) boonshare, open up any new doors for Necro. Imo the spec is entirely carried by the two movement skills and it's inflated damage as of now - and the prices it has to pay for those are simply way too much outside of very small niches.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Asum.4960

[misterman.1530]

2 hours ago, Galmac.4680 said:

Shroud-5 would be nicer if it stays with you, not as fixed ground target. In WvW it is quite useless.

Yeah. Was shocked at that too. I assumed it moved with you, until I, and the player I was fighting, moved. Then I was like - what?

edit: Oh. and then I died.

Edited August 19, 2021 by misterman.1530

[DhaosGestalt.8605]

I have played Harbinger in WvW as a solo/paired roamer, in a Zerg, and in a havoc. I'm going to make comparison to mirage, virtuoso, and holosmith in this so heads up there.

 

Generally speaking, before i get going - the heal elixir is straight garbage. I used it once before swapping back to signet heal, which was just fundementally better for both my play style and in general. The signet synergized with the aggro style harbinger i honed in on, while the elixir heal felt useless. In fact I only used ignorance and ambition, ignoring the rest of the elixirs. I didn't even particular like ignorance but the sheer lack of reliable stun break on Necro baseline makes any stun break offered by elite specs rather non-optional.

The pistol skills were... Well... Reskinned engineer pistol. I loved the pistol 3 ability, though i would happily trade some of it's outright power to get a burst AoE as seen in the axe 3 but more reliable. The pistol 2 was literally just a retool of engineer pistol 2 and i low key hated it. Basic attack is basic and bears no further address.

My trait picks were wicked corruption, implacable foe for solo play and twisted medicine for duo and group play, and deathly haste. I found the traits useful, well composed, but ultimately a bit bland. I would like to see things that adjust how blight gameplay works.

And now blight. This is too much. There simply is not enough reward to dignify the cost. I noticed most of the best harbingers i encountered were holding a steady 7-9 stacks of blight, and beyond that it was either non-existent because they just didn't use it, or they were down state champs. Chumps? Anyway, this needs to be addressed in a bad way. What i would love to see happen is either cut the cost in half, so each stack in all modes of play yields 1% reduction in health, OR keep the current costs but dramatically improve the rewards AND give us some kind of push/cleanse. What i would like to see, personally, is a push at 1/4 duration and half effect if you're going to continue with the 2% loss per stack.

Hope you're still with me: here is my experiences:

Running around solo in WvW as harbinger felt amazing... When it worked. As a mirage main i can say that the harbinger felt much more powerful than i was use to against classes such as LB2SB or deadeye, more in line with what i expect out of my holosmith. As a solo roamer the shroud abilities were *chefs kiss* against a lot of other solo/duo roamer builds that one is likely to encounter. I would have loved to have a bit more utility out of Ignorance and Ambition, but you can't really beat a full boon bar burst to finish a fight.

 

As a duo roamer i felt slightly less impactful. It was nice being able to spit out consistent boons for my ally, corrupt enemy boons, and finish kills, but i mostly felt like a +1 deadeye who noticed a low health enemy and didn't even bother marking them. That was the level of meh i felt by just adding 1 new player. This in comparison to virtuoso just felt bad. Adding 1 new person with a virtuoso turns them from a threat to a murder machine. More friends should not mean less impact. Ideally I'd like to see a greater degree of control over how your elixirs are spread to address this, be that by increasing their area or whatever else might work.

 

In a Zerg i felt like a barnacle. I was along for the ride mostly just trying not to die. This class feels like complete garbage in Zerg play. I feel more engaged on mirage, especially with Alac now being a thing, even on holosmith because of their ability to hard engage groups. This class felt terrible, and it's group play needs help stat.

 

Tl:dr harbinger shines with fewer friends, this is an MMO. Fix that. Elixirs are bad. Fix that. Blight is really bad. Fix that. The concept is delightful and amazing. Keep that.

[LucianDK.8615]

Regarding the lack of an AA chain. I must say I like it not having one. I suffer from vision issues and find many AA chains to be samey looking and not easy to tell apart.

[Tails.9372]

17 hours ago, Crikk.3854 said:

Changing Weeping Shot to apply Bleeding instead of Torment would also be nice for the variety.

 

Torment is overall preferable as it offers some decent sustainment options so you get actually more "variety" by keeping things as they are. Also, you can make your attacks apply bleed with Barbed Precision or carry a scepter in your second slot if you really want to have it on your weapon skills.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Wintermute.5408]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

-snip-

Couldn't have put it better.

To add to how boring Hb feels: I've been going through power DH build, trying to make a case on insufficient HB damage modifiers. While my initial argument completely fell apart in the process, it hit me just how much things DH has to maintain in its rotation to make the most of its damage. Usage of simbols, maintaining optimal distance, spear of justice burst windows. It's a blend of different skills and different mechanics overlapping to create, you know, a rotation. Something to keep track of in combat, to make it more interesting.

 

Reaper has pretty big emphasys on CD management between 2 weapon sets, dynamic CDs in shroud, chill uptime, LF management and need to push wells into Soul barbs window. It's not the most complex kitten ever, but it's entertaining enough for my smooth brain.

Scourge is simplistic, but at least there is shade management, and things that would at least theoretically be interesting would they not suck so much - dhuumfire CD and Sadistic searing. LF management is vastly different from Reaper. There are support considerations to make. And i still get my kicks from corruption transfers.

HB has 2 things to manage - jack and kitten. In PVE staying on max blight, between damage inrease and the fact that it's on 25 seconds timer, is pretty much a constant. And that's it. Sure, you can still dance with Soul barbs and corruptions, but I've been doing it on other specs already. Even LF management is taken completely out of player control with autoregen, that I personally find deeply frustrating.

[DhaosGestalt.8605]

4 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

 Even LF management is taken completely out of player control with autoregen, that I personally find deeply frustrating.

This. I didn't like feeling forced to either take signet of undeath, soul reaping - eternal life, or just accept that my life force bar was going to perpetual sit at 0. Especially because the pistol has such middling life force generation.

[astigmatizm.4392]

I love Necro but to be honest, I found the elixirs kinda boring.  I also hoped the pistols were something else instead as well.  Maybe a sword or a hammer would be much better and much more engaging, but thats just my perspective.  I would be thrilled it it was a hammer instead..

[Brujeria.7536]

 

The spec as a whole feels rather unfinished. A lot of good ideas but its missing the "glue" to hold it together. To break it down mainly for WvW and overall feel of the concept and skills:

 

Blight - Feels lacking and added last second. In PvE you always want as much as possible but you cant really generate enough of it unless you camp shroud. The max can only be reached and maintained with elixirs and even then the only real benefit of blight is increased damage. In WvW / PvP you want as little blight as possible as the benefit ( +12,5% damage) is laughable for what you are giving up. Blight just doesn't feel "round" I feel like adding F2 - F4 skills that interact with blight (either prolong the duration, expending it for addition effects or skills, or reducing their duration) could go a long way. Imagine strong skills that are unlocked after a certain blight stack is reached. On the trait side give the necromancer reasons to maintain blight. Best example are the pulsing effects - once you are above a certain threshold of blight let these pulse while out of shroud. Let the stat boosts for power / condi be shared with allies as long as you are above a certain blight treshold. These are easy fixes that promote both - the risk and reward aspect as well as reasonable decision on how you want to play and maintain blight.

 

Pistol - Feels okayish. First i was amazed as its a simple weapon with nice low cooldowns but its lacking the Necromancer feel. Where is the fear? Where is the boon corrupt? 

 

Shroud - Skill 1 and 2 feel really good and unique. Especially the AA is the only necro AA that feels really enjoyable as its quick and responsive. Skill 3 and 4 on the other hand feel awkward. Its nice to have gap closers but the effects on these are really, really really bland. Skill 3 A one second cast time rush skill that applies one stack of torment with nothing else? Not even a leap finisher? Thats most likely the most boring gap closer in the game. The cooldown is low, however its also gated by the 10 second shroud cooldown. Same goes for skill 4. Its a really weird leap that feels clunky. You have an 1/2 s daze that lets you think it might be a good interrupt but with the cast time thats not working - also the evade feels like it doenst even last the full animation and the skill has no really added effect. This skill should be instant or at least a stunbreak. Skill 5 is good and feels really rewarding if you can land it. The life regen when in combat and not on full health is interesting but contradicts the blight mechanic in its current form.

 

Elixirs - They are outright bad and very underwhelming. The only elixir that might be interesting is  elixir of bliss (condi remove) as its the only quick and 100% reliable source of condi clear the necro has access to. For the rest they are just boring. Feels like they were added last second to create some synergy with a support spec in mind. Lost opportunity. Add exciting effects or make them like glyphs that change their effect if youre above a certain blight treshold. Ideally change them to something else. Thinking like chants from PoE2 - passive effects that ramp up and can be activated again for an active effect based on the duration of the passive effect. Could have nice interactions with blight. Coulf play nicely with support and range as well as the meele aspect of shroud for the actives.

 

Traits -  They are suffering from blight and the fact that blight - by itself has no reward. The only real reward comes from 2 adept traits. Elixirs should have only one trait. The exciting thing is the slow as its a strong condition. As for the rest they are pretty basic, CD reduction and stat conversion is a very passive effect that might have hidden power - but these dont feel exciting. Pulsing quickness is very nice and alongside some shared free stats from traits for allies the only support that spec would need.

 

 

General Issues - Entire spec is countered by blocks / reflects. The spec and traits and skills overall dont feel very necroish. No fear. No corrupts. No Lifedrain. Nothing unblockable. No AOE fields^. No chills or blinds. A lot of Core necromancer traits are basicly useless because you lack interaction

 

General good things - many traits finally work good as you can be healed while in shroud. A lot of possible gear choices. Lifeforce balance feels good. Never too much. Never running out. Generally a fresh feel.

 

Overall the spec will be great for PvE especially instanced. Open world PVE reaper will be better as power damage and aoe are better. At WvW you are a glorified punching ball that can potentially deal a lot of damage it unattended ( and no projectile hate being present). Cant judge PvP tbh, i think it will not be as severe as in wvw as the stats are not as extreme as in WvW

 

 

[Vancho.8750]

PVP perspective.

The quickness/Dhumfire combo feels really spammy, cause most of the output is in the basic attack and the second shroud skill, it feels way too basic with kiting ,even though it has similar gameplay to the core necro, it is less skill involved compared to core since the core speck uses all of its skills on shroud to have decent output. I think it will get troublesome when people have enough practice with it and having most of its output tied to 2 shroud skills, also it resembles the current iteration of Lich form in a way and it will most probably receive the same complaints after Harbinger settles in the meta.   

[reddie.5861]

just wanted to say, people all seem to complain how power is lower.

imagine if u have reaper for dealing raw power dmg?
why new elites need to put old elites in shadows? deal with it x Elite shines at this Y elite shines at that

[Vancho.8750]

34 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

just wanted to say, people all seem to complain how power is lower.

imagine if u have reaper for dealing raw power dmg?
why new elites need to put old elites in shadows? deal with it x Elite shines at this Y elite shines at that

They should delete the power part on harbinger. Reaper for power AoE output, scourge for defensive support with little conditions on the side, harbinger offensive condition damage and boon support, core jack of all trades master of none. I don't like when they try to cram everything into one elite it is no longer specialization it is a blob, and the game already supports 3 elites, I think there is enough room for all play styles SPREAD around by SPECIALAZING the specks to be the best at something.  

[Papyginius.5607]

This class in wvw does not work, it is incomplete.

where are the corrupt?

 

Shroud:
Skill 1 projectile 90% of cases are reflected

Skill 2: nice 900 range melee burst

Skill 3: "evasive" skill - no boon, mediocre damage, I expected a cc in the final impact or dark leap combo  than a simple stack of torment...

Skill 4: mini vault, good evade, but I expected it to corrupt the enemy and a blast finisher...

Skill 5: skill channeling, why not make it ground target? it is useless in wvw, time to cast it and the enemies are gone or I am dead

Elixir:
I expected better, they seem to have been added at random, with a vague logic of "support". (i played 3 only elixir heal, elixir of risk might and fury and elite elixir for share boon to my allies)

Traits:
I just like the quickness trait and the boon share to allies, the rest is really very basic, I was expecting a traits that healed allies or give barrier.
Spite/blood magic/Curse traits are basicly useless because you lack interaction, only Soul Reaping is good

Conclusion:
It is only useful in pve, spamming condi torment to golem.... 45k/sec Ez

[Wintermute.5408]

50 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

just wanted to say, people all seem to complain how power is lower.

imagine if u have reaper for dealing raw power dmg?
why new elites need to put old elites in shadows? deal with it x Elite shines at this Y elite shines at that

Reaper is melee. HB is ranged. They don't need to put one another in shadow - they just have to play differently.

 

Meanwhile, both Scourge and HB are ranged condi 😱

Edited August 19, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Wintermute.5408]

10 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

They should delete the power part on harbinger. Reaper for power AoE output, scourge for defensive support with little conditions on the side, harbinger offensive condition damage and boon support, core jack of all trades master of none. I don't like when they try to cram everything into one elite it is no longer specialization it is a blob, and the game already supports 3 elites, I think there is enough room for all play styles SPREAD around by SPECIALAZING the specks to be the best at something.  

God no. The mere promise of ranged power spec is 10 times more interesting than what condi HB is now. And leave scourge alone. Nobody wants its support as it is.

[Link.6157]

The important question is how much do they still want to change?

 

(pve player only) I do think it seems quite fun to play in harbringer shroud with all the movement. But, once you leave shroud it's very different, the pistol makes it obvious we miss a fun off-hand weapon miserably. Why not 2 pistols, it would make alot of sense in this spec.

I agree on most common points here:

-the shroud, the elixers, the blight it doesn't really seem to fit together

-no utility skill in shroud

-why torment again anyway, scourge has that +has a trait

-elixers, while usefull could be more exiting to use, support build may be viable with these but it will be very boring

-traits seem uninteresting

-GM traits require to be close to target while spec is ranged

 

I would like for blight to always give more damage, direct and condition. The traits i would like to see or something like it, for the first:

-gain even more outgoing damage from blight

-instead of outgoing damage increase, gain boon duration/healing power/support instead

-improved health regen from the passive

Second keep the same-ish as is now and third:

-pulse damage while under the effects of blight

-pulse healing/support under blight

-pulse might to yourself

These could scale with the amount of blight stacks you have. Maybe elixers should also depend somehow on your blight stacks.

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Link.6157

[Agrippa.1693]

Well it's easy, if u want people to use the new Harbinger power traits at all, it needs to be better, otherwise you would go for Reaper, which has much more survivability. OR, ANet could just redesign the upper-trait line completely ...

[Phoenix.6023]

So I actually kind of like where Harbinger was going. But the Blight and Harbinger Shroud could have been implemented differently.

The biggest flaw with Harbinger, is so much as taking ambient damage breezing on you, let alone being in a situation where you have a lot of damage going around you. Even when 100% and completely built into life force regeneration and shroud, with soul marks, vital persistence, eternal life, and running skills such as Spectral Armor, Signet of Undeath, or Spectral walk. Even running Elixers of Promise and Bliss. It's IMPOSSIBLE to maintain life force. What so ever due to it depleting every time you're touched, even when not in Harbinger shroud.

So here's what I propose to be considered. A reverse death shroud. Not a second health bar, but think about the Holosmith's Holo Forge, but on Harbinger. Instead of generating heat, you generate Blight. The longer you're in Harbinger Shroud and the more aggressively you use your skills/and elixer's. The Lower your HP gets and if you overload it then the consequences would be devastating in the same sense of overloading the holo forge and receiving significant increments of damage.  I suppose when you think about it in this sense. The Harbinger would be drawing from it's own life force, rather than the life force of it's opponents as your time and skill usage while in Harbinger Shroud would be directly correlated with how much over-all health you have.

Upon drinking an Elixer. The skill itself should have a follow up/with an AoE targetted toss. After the Elixer is consumed it's tainted with blight so that the spent elixers do things such as converts conditions into boons on enemies. So for example Blighted Elixer of Ignorance for example would stun enemy players on impact. Tossing the Elixer should have approx 1000 range, AoE targeted.   While in Harbinger Shroud. Elixers should change their effect into a better support the various play styles of power, condition damage and support that's encouraged in the various trait lines, while in Harbinger shroud. Perhaps even removing one or two stacks of blight if used strategically.
Elixer of Ambition should also convert existing conditions applied, into boons and break stuns.

Devouring Cut, is a really clunky Bulls Charge from the warrior.. this could be reworked to allow quicker movement or a follow up combo upon exiting the animation and should be able to be cancelled.
Voracious Arc needs to be more fluid, In my mind it should be a shadowstep daze/stun AoE target to 5 targets with a return point.
Vital Draw should be a 600 or 900 radius that follows the player at their feet.

All 900 range skills, should be increased to 1000 range.


 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Phoenix.6023
Just tidying up.

[Agrippa.1693]

2 hours ago, reddie.5861 said:

just wanted to say, people all seem to complain how power is lower.

imagine if u have reaper for dealing raw power dmg?
why new elites need to put old elites in shadows? deal with it x Elite shines at this Y elite shines at that

Well it's easy, if u want people to use the new Harbinger power traits at all, it needs to be better, otherwise you would go for Reaper, which has much more survivability. OR, ANet could just redesign the upper-trait line completely ...

[trixantea.1230]

2 hours ago, reddie.5861 said:

just wanted to say, people all seem to complain how power is lower.

imagine if u have reaper for dealing raw power dmg?
why new elites need to put old elites in shadows? deal with it x Elite shines at this Y elite shines at that

 

Anet has already made power traits for this spec and this shows that they intends to make power variant for Harbringer "playable".

Reaper and Harbringer have different gameplay (Melee/Ranged) and deal damage to a different number of targets.

[Brujeria.7536]

2 hours ago, reddie.5861 said:

just wanted to say, people all seem to complain how power is lower.

imagine if u have reaper for dealing raw power dmg?
why new elites need to put old elites in shadows? deal with it x Elite shines at this Y elite shines at that

The thing is Harbinger has 3 traits that all are made for power dps in mind, so people expect the power DPS to be good. Yet the power dps is bad especially if compared to condi. Reaper on the other side also has 1 GM trait made for Condi, but feels better with condi (if a bit gimicky) But this isnt really about Harbinger its about the core necro weapons. There is no good power meele weapon (dagger is outright bad for dps and more on  the support / heal side) This leaves axe as only viable power choice and maybe focus 5 but also these weaponsets are built with a shroud in mind (long cooldown, bursty damage) and Harbinger shroud is bad at power dps so there really is no great synergy.

 

Which again is fine reaper should be and stay the best meele power dps spec, but it just shows how limiting the core necro weapon sets really are.