Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]

[nopoet.2960]

Could elixirs be used to deliver blight to your target?  So like in addition to the buff you get, your target also suffers from 5 stacks of blight for like 3 seconds?  If timed well it could make a difference in both pvp and pve.  I'd like to add this idea along with the idea that the heal should convert a little bit of blight into lifeforce and that all elixirs could be ammo skills.  Hmm might be to much when you put it all together.  Maybe then instead of an ammo skill the elixirs have a flip over; first you drink then you throw.  Throwing would put the skill on a higher cool down.

Edited August 24, 2021 by nopoet.2960

[Jayce.5632]

PvP:

 

I think Arenanet did a really good job in designing the core mechanics of this specialization. You essentially have two resources to manage. Blight and Life Force. Improperly managing either one of those resources will often mean death.

 

Take Blight for example. It can used as both a heal over time or a burst heal when the stacking effect ends. Feel free to correct me on that as I could not verify it from the combat logs, only from what I believe what was happening from watching the health UI. This form of healing is also separate from Dark Disciple, otherwise known as, the heals from consuming Life Force out of Shroud.

 

During this beta, I only tested the Condition spectrum over Power due to the Pistol and Shroud skills. I do think the scale is tilted a bit too much towards the risk side of the table. Vitality, for instance, is probably one of the best ways to sustain due to the way the mechanics work. I like to Min/Max build at times before optimizing and did not notice any significant damage increase when dropping Vitality for more damage oriented stats. Death, on the other hand, saw a substantial increase. With no defensive stats, you could end up with less than 10k health at 25 Blight stacks.

 

Shroud overall felt good, aside from cripple and chill condition bug affecting the movement effects of Shroud skills 3 and 4. I only regret having to pretty much stick to the Deathly Haste trait. I couldn't get over the flow interrupting cast time of Elixir of Anguish into Shroud. I also wish you could maintain Shroud as long you are landing you attacks, even against a single target, since your health is always at risk. Eventually, you would have to leave Shroud to restore health loss from Blight and to regen/heal from Dark Disciple.

 

Pistol skills felt good as well.

 

I'm not ready to recommend adding more ways to interact with Blight as currently being heavily suggested, especially a way to remove it. Doing so would create a safety net for bad management skills.

[Zenith.7301]

The copy paste bland animation of the elixirs needs to change. Please work on their animation, give it spectral ghostly shadows popping out, some nice visual flair.

 

Moreover, I think it would fit thematically if necro elixirs also did an offensive component on top of a boon. You could actually make it point blank aoe damage explosions with debuff condition applications, one with cc application, the other with a utility application like boon strip or reflect, etc.

 

Make the elixirs more useful rather than redundant boons which will make them useless in a PvE environment with healbrands, alacrens covering all the boons between them.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Nimon.7840]

I have to disagree with a lot of people here.

I don't want a tool to remove blight.

 

It should be a decision to take the blight to increase you damage.

 

I would like to see a change to the CDR trait for elixirs.

As of now: you are a gunslinger, meaning you want to stay ranged, and this creates an area effect around you.

I never played this trait because i read it, and my reaction was like: wait, no blight interaction? - sad

 

The only situation, where I think it could be useful is for the stunbreak elixir, cause a lot of stuns happen in close combat.

As said earlier, I think that elixir is trash. And only traiting elixirs just to make the stunbreak decent feels really bad.

 

[Xaylin.1860]

Finally getting to Harbinger even though the beta is over. Darn RL... 😅

 

Harbinger overall

I had a great time on Harbinger. I haven't gotten the hang of all quirks of Harbinger Shroud but it is a great addition to the Necromancers toolkit. It feels great and probably is a bit overtuned right now. Pistol on the other hand is just an upgraded Engineer MH Pistol and still overshadowed by Shroud. Traits are a mixed bag for me. Elixirs, sadly, are very boring. It shouldn't be a surprise since you can do that much with this type of skills. Putting Boons on them made them even more one dimensional. But I guess we are stuck with it due to the class concept. Overall, I do believe the spec should be more about Poison and Weakness and less about Torment. Additionally, it is at risk to be capable of too much due to it being hybrid AND bringing group Quickness. Maybe it needs some slight adjustments to not universally outshine, for example, Scourge as condi or support spec. Generally, I feel the ways Harbinger can provide Boons (either Elixir trait or GM) to be a bit disjointed. Also, something I've just noticed... no Blind on Harbinger at all?

 

Harbinger Shroud

As already mentioned, I love it. The skills are great. Not having fear is weird but the additional CC easily makes up for that. However, I'm not 100% satisfied with the placement of the skills and potential core interaction. For example, I might be fine with Terror not working on Harbinger. But Dread not working on Daze or Float takes away quite some build options.

If pressured it gets rather difficult to maintain Lifeforce which is a very interesting aspect and makes you play differently than especially Reaper which I like. I'd also enjoy more options to build on the out-of-shroud effect a bit more. Right now, this isn't directly encouraged. So I'm wondering wether the healing capabilities are actually intended? Leeching Lifeforce then healing yourself kind of feels like something vampiric which would be a nice addition or at least more interesting than flat damage. Mummies on #5 are fun but a bit off-putting for me if my character isn't dressed for the occasion. Otherwise, the shroud is visually appealing.

 

Blight

Interesting mechanic although I'm not sure that the downside – reducing your %health temporarily – is actually an big enough downside if Vitality is handed out to Harbinger like candy. Maybe lower it a bit it make people actually invest into it. That aside, it is a pitty that Blight isn't corporated into the class more. On Elixir it feels a bit like an afterthought athough it makes sense lorewise ("drinking" dragonjade). I just wonder why there isn't any interaction with leeching Lifeforce or anything vampiric the Necromancer already has? I'm also disappointed that the GMs don't scale with Blight which ironically makes the Adepts more interesting to me.

 

MH Pistol

I mentioned it already: It feels like a charged up Engineer Pistol. Maybe it was the intention. Still, it is a bit bland. I do love the CC on #3, though. Even though it sadly doesn't interact with traits much. Just as with Harbinger Shroud I wished this had more Poison on it rather than all that Torment. The jade shards would also justify Bleeding.

 

Utilities

Aside from the GM traits, those are probably my biggest let downs. As mentioned above, I do not expect too much from Elixirs. However, it is painfully obvious they are just Boon vehicles for Necromancers. The Blight on them is probably the most interesting aspect but it feels tacked on. Due to having two Elixir traits I even wondered if sharing Boons might have been innate at some point and "Vile Vials" added Blight instead. As it stands now, they are kind of disconnected from the e-spec and Blight aside, they don't really fit anything else Harbinger does.

 

Food for thought: If the Boons on Elixirs are here to stay, I don't have any ideas or suggestions to make them more interesting in itself. This is a fate most Boon focussed Utilities have to suffer. However, I would have appretiated if Elixirs would be accessible within Shroud – like Signets – and maybe switched their effects pbae conditions instead of Boons. Just like we see with Glyphs on Druid. You might argue that Vile Vials already does that. Sure. But I don't like having two Utility related traits plus it also is a bit counter intuitive for them to work like that with Vile Vials – applying Boons and debuffing at the same time. Elixirs working differently while in Shroud feels more reasonable to me.

 

Another idea I liked and someone else mentioned was focussing more on mixing potions. I guess the implementation of more sophisticated mechanics is rather difficult for something like this. But one thought I had: Elixirs could consume Boons on yourself and grant additional effects based on the amount of consumed Boons – like if you were mixing effects. Yes, it would be less appealing to just binge all Elixirs. But it would create more interesting gameplay. For example, Elixir of Bliss could simply grant you even more LF per Boon. Or it could be a bit more complicated and, for example, Elixir of Risk could absorb only defensive Boons (because less Protection equials more Risk and so on).

 

Traits

While Virtuoso's traits might be structured more clearly, Harbinger traits are more interesting and offer better effects. However, they are still not that exciting in the end. Harbinger Shroud clearly is the star of this spec. The power and condi focussed trait sets are kind of fine to me although I'm disappointed in the Grandmasters in general. The middle set is an Elixir infused mess. It doesn't make much sense. I hope ANet sorts this out.

 

Adept

 

• Wicked Corruption – Fine but feels weaker than Septic Corruption.
• Vile Vials – Not a fan of this iteration (s. above) although Chronomancers will surely appretiate more Slow. If this was the Boon route, gaining Stability on Shroud entry (not including the Vitality) would make more sense here. Not sure what kind of Blight related effect I'd add to that. Maybe Protection or Resolution with 1s baseline and longer duration per stack or something like that. If that's not possible, we could have a trait that increased Boon duration based on Blight that is named Unholy or Corrupt Blessing or something. If the middle set was more about support in general, this trait could also instead share some of the healing when leaving Shroud (e.g. Heal nearby allies for x% of your LF drain). However, this kinda overlaps with Scourge indirectly.
• Sceptic Corruption – As mentioned, I'd like Harbinger to be better at Poison than Torment. If this was the case, this trait could increase Poison duration instead of altering Shroud #2.

 

Master

 

• Alchemic Vigor – Fine by me. But might be... too much? It is not even conditional like on most PoF specs.

 

• Implacable Foe – As mentioned in Vile Vials, I'd like to see the Stability elsewhere especially if this is supposed to be the power route. Maybe even something like strike damage on Poison application (s. Soulbeast). Or changing Shroud #1 to deal more power damage instead of conditions.
• Twisted Medicine – I do like the effect but I hate this trait. It just doesn't feel right to me to introduce Boon sharing to Necromancer this way. I would have been way more comfortable with the Boon share being baseline but less efficient on nearby allies or if it was part of a Grandmaster trait. Also, what is twisted about this? Because the medicine is "evil"? What I described in the section about Utilities, of Elixirs switching effects while in Shroud, would make more sense. Or even just the current iteration of Vile Vials.
• Dark Gunslinger – Not sure what's dark about those effects but the trait is fine. 😉

 

 

Grandmaster

 

• Corrupted Talent – Like this one. Changes your gameplay options.

 

• Cascading Corruption – Not too exciting. It is basically the over-time version of Spiteful Spirit. I also feel that this one could benefit from the Weakness way more. It is not like power Harbinger needed Cripple more than condition Harbinger. In the end, I'd like to see a different effect here that scaled with Blight somehow. Even the damage scaling with Blight would be more interesting and create a bigger distinction to Spiteful Spirit.
• Deathly Haste – Torn on this one. I like that Harbinger can share Quickness. But this is kinda lame. It doesn't scale with Blight. It doubles down on Twisted Medicine. It's also just a weaker group-copy of Reapers Onslaught. If Elixirs stayed self-only and Twisted Medicine was reworked/removed, I'd rather have this share all Boons on Harbinger with 1s base and then scaled up to at least 2s with full stacks of Blight (or if you want to get crazy: 1 additional target all 5 stacks). The only issue I could see there is the cross over with Scourge regarding Might. But this could easily fixed by the quite common malpractice of only sharing 1 stack of Might with effects like this.
• Doom Approaches – Not sure what's approaching here. 😆 Weaker over time Weakening Shroud. I don't like all the Torment on Harbinger. I also don't like that this effect is not linked to Blight as well. If we don't want to scale the damaging component on this one, the radius could be increasing instead?

 

[Wintermute.5408]

7 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

It should be a decision to take the blight to increase you damage.

As it was presented in beta, it's a non-decision. You never want blight in PVP, for self-explanatory reasons. You always want and get blight in PVE. That's it. That's the extent of "decision making" and "biting off as much as you can chew".

Edited August 24, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[nopoet.2960]

What if there was a 3% chance per stack of blight that attackers would also be infected by blight?

[Avenrise.3592]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet because, if I'm honest, I wanted to hold off playing the elite specs properly until they release. 

 

Just a couple of Harbinger suggestions: 

1) The blight mechanic is great but the visuals for it are far too overpowering, blocking any kind of semblance of colour for your character. I'd suggest either toning down the green by making more transparent or just have legs/arms being affected.

2) Pistol 3 felt a little... underpowered. In terms of looks/feel rather than power or anything. Id personally like to see a more meatier shot or a very short cast with heavy recoil to convey the sense that you're firing something larger than a normal projectile. 

[Monarc.9726]

3 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

As it was presented in beta, it's a non-decision. You never want blight in PVP, for self-explanatory reasons. You always want and get blight in PVE. That's it. That's the extent of "decision making" and "biting off as much as you can chew".

Right. For PVP/WVW the reward of stacking high blight doesn’t seem to outweigh the loss in health. A few stacks are okay, especially if you’re in and out of shroud every 9-10 seconds, but elixirs would certainly never be used, both for the blight stacks and limited benefits. 
 

That said, it’s not far off from working. I had the best time on this elite spec over the other two, by far. I tried a celestial build roaming in WvW and the high stacks of blight helped boost condition dmg and the blight heal was decent enough. It was more that I lacked a panic button, and felt like I couldn’t go into shroud at times without ensuring death, which made for weird gameplay. If I ran runes of tormenting the sustain would have possibly balanced out, but you shouldn’t need to rely on a specific rune.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Monarc.9726

[Ackzar.9156]

Harbinger Feedback

 

Concept

I'm not really sure what concept the Harbinger is shooting for? Is it an elixir master that chunks potions? Is it a gunslinger that runs around shooting people with these magical bullets? Is it a kung fu master than can jump around once you go into Harbinger shroud? I'm kind of joking, but the harbinger feels like this elixir chunking gun slinger that turns green and starts doing martial art leaps. On top of this you also have the blight mechanic..? In practice, it's a very fun spec, and the ideas are all good. It's just difficult to find a cohesive identity for the Harbinger.

 

Traits

There is nothing inherently wrong with having each trait line be tied to power damage/boon support/condi damage, but with the harbinger, the traits feel a bit.. boring? The power and condi traits do the same thing, just with power/condition damage. The Grandmaster traits are literally "you pulse some damage/condi around you", which I think is a pretty boring concept. I'd love to see some grandmaster trait that changes up how you play, or how a spell functions. For the power GM trait, you could something like "Tainted bolts is now Tainted blow,  your attacks are no longer ranged and apply torment, instead you gain an attack that swiftly punches 3x times", or "You no longer apply torment, whenever you would apply torment, you'll instead deliver a small attack dealing X amount of damage". I'm not saying these are especially good ideas, but I'd love to see some Grandmaster traits that shake up the way you play Harbinger, something more interesting than "you pulse damage".

 

PvE

I'll start off by saying Harbinger felt a bit overtuned damage wise, and this most likely affected how it felt to play the spec. That said, Harbinger was a lot of fun to play. Being a necromancer with real mobility was super fun, it was also interesting how you almost had to "relearn" how to play necro, now that your shroud doesn't protect you. I mostly played condi harbinger so that's what I'll focus on. For condi harbinger, it felt great to actually have a proper rotation. With the whole blight mechanic, you actually felt like a proper glass cannon dps spec. You're squishy and rely heavily on your group to protect you, but while doing so, you are able to pump out insane amount of damage. I've seen the Harbinger been called "green weaver" and it's quite fitting, it Harbinger does feel similar to Weaver, in the sense that you have amazing dps, but while die if a boss even just looks at you wrong.

 

PvP

It was interesting to play Harbinger in PvP and WvW. It was a refreshing take on necro, as a mobile and squishy spec. The elixirs felt kind of bland, but I'm not really surprised, as there's only so much you can do with elixirs.. As for gameplay, the pistol didn't feel that good to play with in PvP, as it doesn't have the same flow that Harbinger shroud has. Harbinger shroud brings that mobility and faster pace of gameplay that was really enjoyable, but once your out of harbinger shroud, you kind of have to change how you fight. The reason I bring this up, is because with core necro, reaper and scourge, your playstyle feels consistent both in and out of shroud. A reaper will prefer to play melee fights where you stick to your targets both in-, and out of shroud. A scourge prefers to stay ranged, kite, and play around it's shades, both in-, and out of shroud. But with harbinger, I felt like I had to swap around this melee play style were you're mobile and have a fast paced playstyle, to a ranged playstyle where I try to kite around and with longer cooldowns to play around.

[Crystal Black.8190]

Harbinger uses torment as its main condition which scourge already uses. That is an unnecessary double use. The theme of harbinger is this alchemist/elixir thing. Wouldn't poison as the main condition be more fitting? Throw in confusion on some skills to represent hallucinogens and you get an identity that is quite different to the torment of scourge.

 

Blight is a problem. While it fits in the theme of necromancer weakening themself to gain positive effects it lacks any synergy with ncros core traits that are supposed to help that playstyle. If core necro weakens themself it is by applying a condition onto themself. Other skills have more potent effects like Life Siphon that heals for more if you are bleeding or allows you to consume/transfer the condition to enemies or minions. I suggest rolling the effects of blight into vulnerability applied to the necromancer. To make group play no hindrance vulnerability can no longer be cleansed by allies instead you gain a beneficial effect like healing/barrier/protection/resolution if it would be cleansed. It would allow players to better manage their blight/vulnerability by using aspects of the core class. One of the traits could then transform this to its current incarnation that prevents cleansing/consuming/transferring of vulnerability for the necromancer too but in return enhances its beneficial effects.

 

Adept skills offer you a choice what benefit blight should have for you. Except not all three have a beneficial effect, Vile Vials enhances blight in no way. It should grant the necromancer boon duration. So there is a choice between Power damage, boon duration and condition damage. There should be no way possible to trait in a way that blight has no beneficial effect like it currently is the case. Especially not if blight is considered a core mechanic of the specialisation. 

 

A simple blight does x effect is quite boring so they should be enhanced in some minor way like it is the case for Septic Corruption. Wicked corruption should do something similar that favors power damage in a small way besides the blight effect.

 

Elixirs are in its current iteration very boring. Drinking an elixir and gaining boons isnt what a fun utility looks like. Harbingers theme is weakening themself for beneficial effects. So why not grant a nice chunk of boons while also applying non damaging conditions that you could consume or transfer. Yes you self apply blight but like mentioned above it lacks any interaction with the core classes self harm mechanics because it is no condition.
Elixir traits make no logical sense. The necro drinks something and allies and enemies around him gain effects. While gameplay beats realism a simple change would be to make elixirs ground targeted like engineers toolbelt elixirs if you equip that trait. It would also make the new utilities a lot more fun to use because they are now ground targeted.

 

Grandmaster traits are all quite boring to use because they are all passives. I see a similarity to thiefs grandmasters in that in a similar way all enhance dodges, but dodges are active, being in shroud is passive. One of the traits being passive is okay but I would look for other ways to enhance the shroud in a more active way, like decreased cooldowns for each stack of blight in conjunction with faster blight accumulation while in shroud.

 

Shroud skills are in the wrong order. Shroud skills have a theme that makes it easier to know what your skills are doing even if you haven't played that elite before. Shroud skill placement looks like this.
Slot 2 mobility skill, Slot 3 fear/cc, Slot 4 high damage, Slot 5 some form of control.
If we look at harbinger the skills are like this slot 2 has the high damage, slot 3 mobility, slot 4 cc and slot 5 control. To be in line with the other versions of shroud I suggest reordering the following Slot 2 Devouring Cut, Slot 3 Voracious Arc, Slot 4 Dark Barrage, Slot 5 Vital Draw.
Another thing to note is that harbinger has no access to fear in shroud unlike any other necro spec. I suggest changing the daze on Voracious Arc to a short fear in conjunction with cripple. This allows to trigger the on fear effects for harbinger of other trait lines.

 

There exists the dark aura in the game and you would think that is a thing necros can get,but they cant. Neither is there a skill that directly grants dark aura nor are there leap or blast finishers a necro can use in conjunction with their many dark fields to gain dark aura. None of the harbingers' movement skills are leap finishers or can be traited to be one. Consider either making them leaps or giving one of the elixirs a dark aura.

[Otto.6495]

My feedback on Harbinger is influenced by my own preferences in how i like to play the game. I'll play 'meta' builds when needed for certain game modes, but i mostly just enjoy open world roaming, with my own builds that fit what i want for a given situation. My 2 favorite builds in game are Minion builds on Necro and dual pistol deadeye on thief. Overall, I enjoy the Necro class the most, but always feel slightly lacking in a quick killing open world roaming build (I know Reaper is usually suggested for that, but something about the reaper playstyle just doesn't vibe with me very much), and Harbinger felt pretty good at filling that role for me. It's not quite as juicy as the dual pistol Deadeye, but i wasn't expecting it to full match or exceed that.

 

Harbinger shroud itself is probably the most i've enjoyed going into shroud in any necro build i've tried. The 2 gap closer/mobility skills are probably a big reason, but both 1 and 2 also feel like they have really nice power. While in Harbinger shroud (with the right 2 other skill tree's to support it) felt the closest to that rapid fire, quick killing experience of the pistol deadeye, so i really enjoyed it. 

 

Pistol skills on their own felt a bit underwhelming at first, but once i found the right synergies, they were good enough. I will agree with many others that the blight mechanic felt a bit "meh", only giving 25% increased damage for it's rather hefty downsides, but that paired with a good stack of might from harbinger shroud 1 skill (thanks to spite trait) allowed pistol to pack enough punch to feel ok until i got back into shroud.

 

The big things the spec felt like it was missing, relative to some of my other favorite builds, is break bar damage. The stun on pistol 3 and the float on shroud 5 both did a bit of break bar damage, but it takes a lot more than that to get through most break bars. But this isn't a huge criticism, and is perhaps a fair trade off for the mobility and quick damage in the build. I can always quickly swap to a scourge build with tons of break bar damage if i know i'm coming up to a target that needs it, or i could probably swap around my 6-10 skills to find more break bar damage. I don't expect one build to be the best at everything, i don't expect harbinger to be the most survivable, highest damage, highest break, highest mobility, highest CC build all in one.

 

I know a lot of folks had valid criticisms on the build, and a lot of it depends on what game modes you enjoy and what you're expecting, but i was pretty happy with the role that Harbinger filled for me in the game modes i enjoy.

 

I would agree that blight could have a bit more interesting upsides to pair with it's downsides, it'd be nice if it had a base upside whether or not you chose the first or third trait in the first line. If you choose the middle trait, cooldown reduction on elixirs, you get no bonus from blight whatsoever. But i'm also aware that if blight bonuses inflate too much, other aspects of the build would need to be taken down, and i'm not sure if i'd like that. I ESPECIALLY don't want pistol skills to need to be taken down anymore, they already feel a bit "meh" at their base level. 

 

I also echo others comments that Harbinger doesn't interact very well with many other skill tree's traits that impact lifeforce generation, but this was a bit hard for me to be sure of, just something i thought i was noticing.

[Kyban.4031]

An offhand pistol would feel more thematic.  Skills should play into the themes of the class with a movement skill and something that interacts with blight specifically.  

Elixirs are a little boring, they have very static effects that aren’t exciting which is okay for a couple but makes the spec seem “small”. Engis at least have toolbelt skills.  Ideally they should do something more than basic effects and especially things that play into the class mechanics like Blight.

Blight is also a little boring, balancing Blight level is just not using your coolest skills and there is no way to reduce or send Blight to actively control the effect.  

Harbinger has the potential for a neat and unique style of support but just doesn’t offer enough.  Traited Elixirs should share all their effects and have higher uptime on important boons, like alacrity, if built for support.  They don’t offer the active defenses, buffs, or healing that other support builds would to justify taking one.  Having some way for Blight to interact with support would also help as there are options for power and condi damage in the traits but nothing to interact with support.

Damage builds don’t really use enough of their kit to make it feel as compelling as others, getting better damage on skills like Shroud 3, an offhand weapon, and Elixirs would make the class feel more involved in PvE.

The Shroud UI on the health bar covers the actual health of the Harbinger despite not protecting their health bar.  Perhaps just changing the color of the health bar to indicate shroud would help or simply let the on character visuals take care of it.

Blight interacts in extreme ways with some effects like the Frailty instability in Fractals, leaving you with absurdly low health.  (Frailty also lowers the life force pool of necros, causing them to be disproportionately affected by it compared to other classes)

Edited August 24, 2021 by Kyban.4031

[jerc.9028]

So far I don't like the Elixirs, they all look the same, just different colors (boring) and they also feel useless. It would've been nice if instead of drinking it, the necromancer throw the elixir on the floor and create a gas cloud or something nice (give it some necro vibe). They sound exactly like the engineer elixirs, which is horrible imo. Also the pistol sounds plain and boring ( no necro vibe there either). The work done so far is great, but I think those things will make a lot difference, you can do it!

[CJH.2879]

I just released a beta preview video, (was trying out the Elite Spec Classes on Hero Points during the Beta), so if Anet wanted to take a direct look at the elite specs in action to see where some of the fundamental flaws are during the actual combat, please feel free to do so >>

 

Also... feel free to >> LoL, I know I did a couple of times >> (specifically at my epic fails while trying them out!) << Cheers &... I hope it helps!

 

 

[Bookah pls.9352]

Please give us pistol offhand.

[Crikk.3854]

Some more thoughts on elixirs...

The flat "gain blight" and the basic "gain boon" are both boring and don't play into the "risk/reward" trade-off thing that I think ANet was aiming for.  I was thinking about it some more and came up with another option.

When you quaff an elixir, you get an immediate, minimal effect.  BUT... the skill then flips over to a "spit it out".  As long as you don't "spit it out", the effect continues AND Blight gets applied.  If you hit maximum stacks of Blight, a negative effect is placed on you.

Example #1:  The stun-break elixir could be changed to: Breaks Stun.  You gain stealth.  You remain in stealth for up to 7 seconds, but each second you stay in stealth you gain 1 stack of Blight.  If your total Blight hits 25 stacks you become Revealed for 3 seconds.

Example #2: A condi-cleanse elixir would work as: Lose one damaging condition and one movement-impairing condition.  Lose one more (random) condition each second after that, but also gain 1 stack of Blight per second.  This persists for 8 seconds, or until you "spit it out" (use the flip skill).  If your total Blight hits 25 stacks, the condition cleanse ends and you gain 10 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds.

Example #3: The Heal elixir: Heal for a base amount and gain life force.  Gain 2% life force each second afterwards up to 8 seconds, but also gain 1 stack of Blight per second.  If Blight reaches 25 stacks, you are poisoned for 3 seconds.

Example #4: Gain Might and breath a stream of fire at your foes (like El Dragon Breath).  You continue to breath this fire for up to 5 seconds, gaining 1 stack of Blight per second.  If you reach max stacks of Blight, you catch on fire for 2 seconds.

Example #5: You become a mini-plague cloud.  Like El Gaseous Form, but you spread torment to anyone within 120 range of you.  While in cloud form you also gain some boons (swiftness, resistence, resolution?).  You can stay in cloud form for up to 6 seconds, gaining Blight each second.  If you hit maximum stacks of Blight, you lose cloud form and lose all boons.

 

Generally, it would be nice if the elixirs did something besides just "apply boon".  And I think a duration-for-Blight tradeoff would work really well with the general ideal of the spec.  Quaffing an elixir while under the effects of one already would have to automatically cancel the first.  They'd act like stances in that regard.  But it would add another dimension to Blight management and give the player more interesting decisions.  Should I stay stealthed or spit out the elixir to lose it, but also stop gaining Blight?  Should I continue to breath fire even though it'll push me to 25 stacks, because I've got a condi transfer skill queue'd up that I can use to apply a little bit more burning when I hit 25 stacks?

 

There are lots of ways that elixirs could be improved.  Doesn't have to be my ideas, but please do something! 🙂

[Xaylin.1860]

I do like the "spit out" idea. A bit D3 Witchdoctot. Although I can see how some people might be appaled by it.

 

However, the idea with the negative effect on 25 Blight doesn't work for me. You'd either have to drink many Elixirs at once (if that was even possible with the spit out mechanic) or you'd have to come fresh out of Shroud to ever reach the cap. Which means, that the negative effect is irrelevant in many scenarios. 

[AmRas.8175]

Since there are so many critics i'd like to give my feedback aswell!

I only tried Harbinger but I loved the shroud. I love the harbinger/gunslinger Idea. I play mainly spvp and raids/fractals. I do love an extra glassy DPS that just brings dps and nothing esle. The quickness version doesn't really seem worth it over what's in the game right now so i'm not yet sold on that one (but hey which PoF class isn't overtuned I'd be happy to see some PoF nerfs and have real balance rather than making EOD ever more OPie than PoF).

I'm also a witcher fan and the elixirs give me a bit of the witcher potion vibes. However I do find the effects of the elixirs lackluster.

Perhaps there could be extra effects like holo forge if you are over a certain level of blight stacks there is extra bonus effects (and extra trade offs). I would also rather have the elixers give something else than ''just boons'' - wow-(Owen Wilson way) but not really.  Give the elixers some ''unique'' effects. Like sic em from ranger, or elixer S. some boons are fine. But the majority of the elixirs just weren't worth using over the other options.

Might just be me be I was also hoping to get some ''throwable'' elixers, either supportive or like gas bombs but hey, a man can dream.

Last but not least, I LOVEEEEEE the power/support/condi trait idea. I HATE having to switch classes when i raid or even specs. No you can't play X on this boss we only want Y or Z. Just gimme 1 spec that can do both condi and power and i'll be happy. I know im in the minorty that is against multiclassing but yet again: a man can dream. 

This doesn't take away the fact the traits are a bit plain.

But overall id give the class a 8/10 for a classy condi dps spec class and a 3/10 for boon support. (the power dps traits seem nice in theory but it just doesn't pull off the same numbers, id like to see power/condi harbinger dps on the same level just so I can play both in raids without having to switch specs or classes) 

[Tanith.5264]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:54 PM, Sunshine.4802 said:

While shroud and pistol skills are great, elixirs just feel incredibly boring and unimpactful

+1. I enjoyed the pistol and shroud skills, but found myself ignoring the elixirs altogether. I'm also not a fan of the "blight" mechanic.

And while it's not terribly important to gameplay, can I add  that I'm also not a fan of the spec's name?  "Harbinger" makes zero sense, as do the names of the other two specs. Good heavens, Anet, are you picking spec names out of King Thorn's...ah, pumpkin...or something?

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Tanith.5264

[yann.1946]

Please dont add blightremoval mechanics. Its an interesting idea that you have to keep the future in mind when using it and removal mechs would destroy that part of the gameplay.

[ohbz.7302]

After letting the beta event sink in a little I'd like to add my two cents to the feedback.

I spent most of my time during the beta on harbinger in pvp and 1v1s but also tried it in WvW for ~2h in a controlled 15v15s enviroment and talked to the other ppl testing harbinger during that testing. I tested both power and condi.

Overall I like the unique take, however the traits are really boring and lackluster. So here's my thoughts on what needs changing and some suggestions on how to change it.

 

First of, in mid-to-large scale WvW harbinger felt really weak and neither me nor any of the people I tested this with were able to make harbinger work. And honestly I think thats fine! Nec already has reaper and scourge that both work in this situation and have really distinct playstyles. I think you're time would be much better spent getting harbinger to a good place in pvp and smallscale WvW than trying to get it to work in large scale WvW.

 

In general harbinger has two playstyles right now you either fully embrace blight (the pve aproach) or try to avoid blight as much as possible (spent minimal time in shroud) and take advantage of harbingers passive regen (this is the stronger aproach in pvp). That passive regen actually makes harbinger rather sustainable when you increase your max Lf (carrion amulet+rune of divinity+soul reaping = ~1000 heal per second). I think this sould be tuned down a little or require a trait to be as stron as it is right now, unfortunately this is hard to balance around since this interaction is at the moment the only thing giving value to max Lf on harbinger. My idea to balance it and give max Lf more importance would be to make the Lf you loose both in and outside of shroud be an absolute number (~700 Lf per second while in shroud and half that outisde of shroud) instead of a percentage, so with more max Lf you'd be able to stay in shroud longer and maintain Lf more easilly against the passive degen. Then you can make the healing recived work like normal healing (~300+0,1*healing power).

Unfortunately none of the traits play into different playstyles. I'd like that to change, my first suggestion would be to change the adapt traits to be one for ppl avoiding blight, one for balls to the walls max blight max dps and one that enables an inbetween:

- The traits that increase power and condi damage based on the number of blight stacks you have should be rolled into one trait and the poison removed to balance this out!

- the adapt elixir trait can imo be removed, I think 1 elixir trait is enough and this feels like a placeholder, also this gives us more room for better traits!

- 2nd trait should enable carefull low bight builds, my suggestion: "Loose twice as much Lf while not at full health in combat, gain twice as much healing from loosing Lf

- 3rd trait should imo enable a middle of the road aproch, my suggestion: blight only reduces max health by 1% but can stack up to 50 stacks, this way being ~15-25 bight would be much less punishing, but if you're not careful you can still get to the max -50% health. Alternatively making this trait reduce blight duration would achieve the same thing and might be easier to balance.

 

The master traits are ok imo, though I'm not sure if the elixir trait needs the soulbeast stanceshare treatment as I did not play elixir much.

 

The grand master traits are increadibly boring imo the quickness one is ok but the power and condi pulsing traits are boring and basically do the same thing (the difference between pulsing condi and pulsing power damage is like the difference between coca-cola and pepsi)

-I'd suggest making one trait that makes every shroud skill deal a different condi on top of there current effect, this would add much more play and counter play to harbinger. My idea was poison on shroud 2, cripple on shroud 3, weakness on shroud 4 and torment on shroud 5. Not sure if the aa should get condi but the only ones that could maybe make sense would be vuln (we already have that in spite) or bleed (probably to much condi spam potenial)

- The last trait I'd personally like to reward frequently entering and leaving shroud, though there are already a lot of core traits doing this. I like the Idea of "your fist skill used after entering shroud has x seconds reduced cd". This could enable unique interesting rotations based on the skill you use first.

 

Also: right now the ticking aspect of shroud 5 is pointless in pvp, you should either remove the aoe after the float (would be a shame since the animation is nice) or add damage back on to it. In my opinion shroud 5 should do ~0 damage on the first hit but do damage on the subsequent hits.

 

 

[Jokuc.3478]

I love Harbringer! It was so much fun to play and I think the concept behind it is good. I think the traits need some rework though. I hate the pulsing grandmaster traits that give you aoe quickness or aoe damage etc, you should get rid of that afk stuff and make it apply to a shroud skill or something instead that you actively have to use. I also don't see the point in the power traitline cause the condi one is just better. 

[Rym.1469]

Adding to previous feedback;

Regarding Fear access people ask for, it could be on Pistol 3 replacing Stun. 12s CD small AoE ranged stun is quite disruptive and feels great for setting up Shroud 2 or 5, but it being a 3/4-1s Fear could lower it's power and enable some of the traits. Or just replace the Daze on Shroud 4 with very short Fear.

Another thing is, I feel like some Shroud abilities might be a bit too "clear cut". Talking mainly about Shroud 3 here, it's purpose seems to be pure mobility - it doesn't really do damage and it doesn't interact with the rest of the Shroud kit. Similar point could be made for Shroud 4, but I feel like it's good enough as it is.

One thing Necromancer has always lacked was fun Combo Finisher/Field interaction. I know that studio seems to be moving away from this mechanic in general, but not using it is a shame - the interaction with Ice fields was an enjoyable part of PvE Condition Reaper back in the day and now with caster's fields taking priority the problems of the past are gone.

I propose some Combo Field/Finisher interaction as a way to spice up Shroud and perhaps make skills interact a bit more with each other. Something along the line of making Shroud 3 leave a poison field trail when used above X Blight and adding a low baseline (5-10?%) Projectile finisher chance to Shroud 1 which has a specific interaction with the Shroud 3 trail boosting finisher chance up to 50% or so. Traits and elixirs could be further improvement etc.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Rym.1469

[kazimarou.9472]

Harbinger in my opinion is basically a full elixir holomancer

Take holomancer elite specialization 

Change all the 6 to 0 abilities to elixir

Strap on the sheild off hand ( no focus on engi)

AND THERE YOU GO Harbinger boom !!!