Matchmaking is inexcusably bad

[Ragebru.1397]

Honestly, the only way this will ever be fixed is to have roles that you queue up for. 

 

ie. bunker, support, duelist, damage, etc. 

 

When you get a party of 3 soulbeasts that rush mid and get clapped because there's no boon support, or auras- you cant really fix that. It would be like picking a top laner in league of legends as ADC, sure, you might win sometimes- but not frequently.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Sounds like most people agree that the matchmaking is ... suboptimal at best.  However, we haven't seen a whole of lot of constructive ideas for improvement thus far.  So, with the huge caveat that there is no perfect system and that these suggestions won't be a "perfect fix," I propose the following:

 

1.) The range of MMR in a match should be limited to 150 (i.e., the difference in MMR between the highest rated player and the lowest rated player may not be greater than 150).

 

2.) The algorithm should place much less weight on trying to place similar classes on each team (e.g., if one team gets a warrior, the other team gets a warrior, etc).  I think the idea behind this criteria in the algorithm was a good one (attempting to keep the sides balanced by ensuring that there are similar abilities on each side), but it just doesn't pan out in reality.  Just because you put a guardian on each team doesn't mean that both teams have support, for instance; one could be playing trap DH while the other healing/support.

 

Moreover, since the game allows you to switch characters while in a match, there is absolutely zero point in the algorithm attempting to "balance classes on each side" only for players to be able to undo that a moment later once in the match.   If we insist on attempting to balance classes on each side, we should also disable a player's ability to switch characters in match.  If we feel it is more valuable to be able to switch characters, then we shouldn't insist on attempt to balance classes.  We can't have it both ways.

 

Personally, I would prefer that switching characters during a match be prohibited and that the algorithm retain some preference (but greatly diminished) for trying to keep classes similar between teams.  My reasoning for this is twofold:

a)     While it is true that, for example, putting a guardian on each team does not mean the teams are truly “balanced” since each guardian can play a very different build, you are more likely to have parity with roughly similar team composition.  If the algorithm had no preference for class composition of a team, you would probably get matches of 2 guards, 2 necros, and an ele vs. 2 warriors, 2 rangers, and an engineer.  My money’s on team 1.

b)     Preventing class switching in a match eliminates the well-known exploit of entering the queue as a class that is weak in the meta (e.g., warrior) in hopes of getting a warrior matched against you in the other team, then switching once in the match to a class that is stronger in the meta (e.g., necro or guard).   

 

3.)  The algorithm should still limit the number of classes on the same team to max of 2 each (e.g., no teams of 3+ necros, or 5 warriors, etc).

 

 

Some people might protest that these proposed changes could make the matchmaking process take too long.  Others, like myself, would say it’s worth the wait to get a quality match.  You probably can’t satisfy everyone on this front, but a reasonable compromise might be to allow players to choose whether they want the system to prioritize putting them in high-quality matches (in which case it would use the criteria I’ve outlined above) or whether they just want to get into a match as soon as possible (in which case the algorithm keeps doing whatever its currently doing).  From a design standpoint, that might be more work than it’s worth, but that’s the best I can come up with for trying to cater to both the folks who quality matches and those who just want to play as many games as possible.

 

P.S.—I love the earlier comment about being able to see builds/gear your teammates are running.  I think that is already a feature when spectating a match, so it might not be too hard to make the same thing visible to players within a match.

 

So that’s my first crack and trying to improve the system.  I welcome constructive feedback and further suggestions for improvement.

[jdawgie.1835]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:19 PM, jwhite.7012 said:

When you get a party of 3 soulbeasts that rush mid and get clapped because there's no boon support

LOL. I see this kinda of stuff alot. Rush in to die lol. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Oh, another thing:

When a player disconnects (or leaves) before the match even starts, the game is cancelled.  Please stop making people play out a 4v5 match for no reason.  Even if you don't assess loss of rank points for losing, it's still a waste of everyone's time.

[eyelogix.1654]

18 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Oh, another thing:

When a player disconnects (or leaves) before the match even starts, the game is cancelled.  Please stop making people play out a 4v5 match for no reason.  Even if you don't assess loss of rank points for losing, it's still a waste of everyone's time.

it happens way to often sadly and its annoying af.
They need harder punishment imho.

Edited August 25, 2021 by eyelogix.1654
added a sentence!

[Broxxgar.6801]

On 8/21/2021 at 11:19 PM, jwhite.7012 said:

Honestly, the only way this will ever be fixed is to have roles that you queue up for. 

 

ie. bunker, support, duelist, damage, etc. 

 

When you get a party of 3 soulbeasts that rush mid and get clapped because there's no boon support, or auras- you cant really fix that. It would be like picking a top laner in league of legends as ADC, sure, you might win sometimes- but not frequently.

You point something right. But the problem is that GW2 wasn't made for roles. That isn't tank,support or dps roles on the game. Every build can do everything. The problem is meta bias guys.

As you pointed there: 3  Soulbeast on your match, probably none of them changed the build and  I still believe they did the worst, all 3 used the same build. So they get wiped. This is very common, when I see a Warrior in my team, because I play most of my game as  Warrior,  I imeddiately change my build. Because I know that warrior will only run the meta build Axe/Shiled and GS or Dg/Shield and GS. I'm the only to take action when this happens, and none of them even care to change.

[Endo.1652]

I constantly kept getting this necro on my team and he would just afk in spawn whenever he was on my team but played whenever he was vs me, eventually i just tilt queued my way down to gold. once in gold I went against 3 top 10 players and a plat 2 player. My team was all golds and plat 1s. Yeah this matchmaking Isnt really working lol.

[Ragebru.1397]

3 hours ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

Quote

You point something right. But the problem is that GW2 wasn't made for roles. That isn't tank,support or dps roles on the game. Every build can do everything. The problem is meta bias guys.

While on release, yes, however the game has drastically shifted. While there isn't necessarily a "holy trinity", there is definitely a stark difference between a dps, support, or bunker in this game. 

ie...

• not all classes have access to the same boons.
• not all classes have the same cleansing potential
• not all classes have the same CC
• not all classes have the same CC removal.
   

Quote

As you pointed there: 3  Soulbeast on your match, probably none of them changed the build and  I still believe they did the worst, all 3 used the same build. So they get wiped. This is very common, when I see a Warrior in my team, because I play most of my game as  Warrior,  I imeddiately change my build. Because I know that warrior will only run the meta build Axe/Shiled and GS or Dg/Shield and GS. I'm the only to take action when this happens, and none of them even care to change.

In general, I feel like you shouldn't be allowed to switch characters once in the match. Ideally, we have build templates and you should be able to switch your build template to counter the enemy team. While this is an unrealistic expectation (because with the exception of two classes, the remaining classes are not able to fill all roles... ie necro being able to bunker, support, or dps.) if balancing were to be tailored around the mindset of giving every class equality towards that goal, I think we'd see much better diversity and game play in both PvP and PvE. 

It's awesome that you're so willing to switch though, I commend you for that! 😃

[Vancho.8750]

On 8/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

if pvp was strictly team q then the balance team could build specs around defined roles, and if they never abandoned the no trinity concept then we could have balanced sustain along with balanced damage. instead we have solo/ duo q which exacerbates the problem builds that can do everything, cuz they must do everything in an environment where there is no immediate support or support at all. conquest as a mode also creates problems. you have to have builds that can hold a 1v1 or even a 1v2 for a time, but be able to dish out enough counter pressure damage. thats fine on its own, except when combined with a support or just being in a balanced team fight. now this build has a significant advantage over others, and good luck trying to focus it down. good luck facing a full team of these builds. in a way the meme levels of damage were necessary to take down the meme levels of sustain pre megapatch, but with no follow up its just another meme. the megapatch was not the cause of what we find ourselves in now, the cause was the flaw of no team q, no trinity concept abandoned, all combined with conquest which necessitates do it all builds. any of these are fine on their own but the combo is what doomed the mode. the play how you want attitude emanating from the game was also of no help. every single pvp game with team work involved has necessities it has to check off in order for the team to succeed. failure isn't a choice people are going to choose, they are going to choose the meta, so the meta better be managed by devs who know what they're doing and have the power to do it or the mode will fail, without fail.

 

edit

i forgot to include skill design. we could have 100s of skills of they were designed to do only one thing. this underpins and perhaps undermines my other points. oh well.

I think the whole "play how you want" would have been fine if only specializations were just that, for example if I take a profession which ever it is I can be whatever I want in the boundaries of the elite specialization, so if I want to support I can switch to Firebrand, if I want to sidenode I can go DH and if I want to +1 I would go WB, and the Core is left to be jack of all trades, and each speck can't do the job of the other.

The problem I see now is that   "play how you want" for arenanet means I can play which ever position on a single elite speck which bloats them for unknown reason, cause now they have support , condition and some utility traits and skills instead having for example a power dps speck with traits and skills that just help it excel in some aspect be it little bit of utility or defense in exchange for damage.

The EOD specks seem like they are made to do everything, even though the game already has 2 elites, the do it all design was kind of ok for HoT, but right now you have build templates and 3 elite specks to pick from, so there is no reason for them to do it all, there is a big space for each elite to be specialized in something.  

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Just had a match where one of the players on the other team was 250 rank points higher than me (and the others, from what I could tell, weren't much lower).  This is a perfect illustration of the brokenness of the current system.  As expected, the game was not competitive.  

 

Equally unfortunate was watching members of my team turn on each other, accusing each other of being noob or bots or whatever.  While toxicity like that is more of a reflection on the player's immaturity, I can certainly understand their frustration.  Nobody likes to lose, especially when you get crushed, and no one wants to feel like they are saddled with lesser-skilled players.  There also aren't many people volunteering to be cannon-fodder for high plat players just so they can get a game.

 

Bottom line: Nobody wants matches like this.  And yet, this is an all-too-common experience in PvP.  It's not healthy for the game mode and should be a high priority for improvement.

[Downstate.4697]

Ranked is now unranked with more gold. Tournaments is the new ranked.

[Khalisto.5780]

with population this low, doing anything  to matchmaking is just a band-aid fix i could turn things worse than they are now

 

 

 

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

10 minutes ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

with population this low, doing anything  to matchmaking is just a band-aid fix i could turn things worse than they are now

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe, but I think I think there are still things that could be done to improve match quality. See below:

 

On 8/22/2021 at 7:27 PM, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sounds like most people agree that the matchmaking is ... suboptimal at best.  However, we haven't seen a whole of lot of constructive ideas for improvement thus far.  So, with the huge caveat that there is no perfect system and that these suggestions won't be a "perfect fix," I propose the following:

 

1.) The range of MMR in a match should be limited to 150 (i.e., the difference in MMR between the highest rated player and the lowest rated player may not be greater than 150).

 

2.) The algorithm should place much less weight on trying to place similar classes on each team (e.g., if one team gets a warrior, the other team gets a warrior, etc).  I think the idea behind this criteria in the algorithm was a good one (attempting to keep the sides balanced by ensuring that there are similar abilities on each side), but it just doesn't pan out in reality.  Just because you put a guardian on each team doesn't mean that both teams have support, for instance; one could be playing trap DH while the other healing/support.

 

Moreover, since the game allows you to switch characters while in a match, there is absolutely zero point in the algorithm attempting to "balance classes on each side" only for players to be able to undo that a moment later once in the match.   If we insist on attempting to balance classes on each side, we should also disable a player's ability to switch characters in match.  If we feel it is more valuable to be able to switch characters, then we shouldn't insist on attempt to balance classes.  We can't have it both ways.

 

Personally, I would prefer that switching characters during a match be prohibited and that the algorithm retain some preference (but greatly diminished) for trying to keep classes similar between teams.  My reasoning for this is twofold:

a)     While it is true that, for example, putting a guardian on each team does not mean the teams are truly “balanced” since each guardian can play a very different build, you are more likely to have parity with roughly similar team composition.  If the algorithm had no preference for class composition of a team, you would probably get matches of 2 guards, 2 necros, and an ele vs. 2 warriors, 2 rangers, and an engineer.  My money’s on team 1.

b)     Preventing class switching in a match eliminates the well-known exploit of entering the queue as a class that is weak in the meta (e.g., warrior) in hopes of getting a warrior matched against you in the other team, then switching once in the match to a class that is stronger in the meta (e.g., necro or guard).   

 

3.)  The algorithm should still limit the number of classes on the same team to max of 2 each (e.g., no teams of 3+ necros, or 5 warriors, etc).

 

 

Some people might protest that these proposed changes could make the matchmaking process take too long.  Others, like myself, would say it’s worth the wait to get a quality match.  You probably can’t satisfy everyone on this front, but a reasonable compromise might be to allow players to choose whether they want the system to prioritize putting them in high-quality matches (in which case it would use the criteria I’ve outlined above) or whether they just want to get into a match as soon as possible (in which case the algorithm keeps doing whatever its currently doing).  From a design standpoint, that might be more work than it’s worth, but that’s the best I can come up with for trying to cater to both the folks who quality matches and those who just want to play as many games as possible.

 

P.S.—I love the earlier comment about being able to see builds/gear your teammates are running.  I think that is already a feature when spectating a match, so it might not be too hard to make the same thing visible to players within a match.

 

So that’s my first crack and trying to improve the system.  I welcome constructive feedback and further suggestions for improvement.

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The pops is a all time low which is messing with the match making algorithm, even with tons of bots high levels get placed into matches with low level players leading to severely one sided matches that are 0 fun for both parties. Looks at the que's currently, often their over 5 mins long, I dont ever remember ques being so long in last 7 yrs. In comparison if u que bg's in ESO u legit get a que pop in 5-10 secs more times than not.  Dont know if that's because ESO has a higher population or that it uses a different algorithm, if it's a different algorithm than maybe gw2 should adopt something similar.

[Guirssane.7082]

Just tell yourself that to be top 250 you need 1580 ranking points. That tells a lot about the pvp population, it's super low 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

During my last 10 games in ranked, probably about 7 of them had one team having 80% or more of the total kills; in my last game, my team had 96% (!) of all the kills.

 

Just feelsbadman.  When you lose, it feels terrible.  When you win, it feels like you just picked on the little kids.

 

ANet @Josh Davis.7865, @Cal Cohen.2358/ @Cal Cohen.3527, you will never attract more people to PvP unless you can improve the quality of your matches.  There ARE things you can do to improve this...It would be nice to see that this is on your radar for things to improve as we move toward EoD.

 

[Khalisto.5780]

14 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 

Maybe, but I think I think there are still things that could be done to improve match quality. See below:

 

 

Yup, class mirror is completely irrelevant to match making

 

but mmr cap between players, is a bad bad idea, some ppl wouldnt be able to play, is there really 10 players to get in a match offhours if you either too high or too low. Let's say there is, then you go in a match and lose, then you don't care that much about getting quality matches, you just wanna climb, you decide to dodge some of those players, suddenly nobody else will be able to find a match. I don't know if pvp population is this low, but it seems so, with silver vs plat matches offhours.

 

I think the best thing that could have been made to match making now is removing duo q, so you don't have the only 2 1700+ players, playing in the same team, even if they dodge each other their chances of carrying a match is greatly deminished, even dodging playes won't be as powerful, cuz all those duos will be solo, and there will be a lot of ppl to dodge to even get in a match without waiting 20 mins and you still not be sure if you do so you will be able to faceroll for ez mmr.

 

Wintrading will be a lot harder cuz right now you get your duo queue up as warrior and your wintrader too at the same time, is very likely to get matched agaisnt the wintrader

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

bump

 

Was in a match 500-38 today. In ranked.

 

Sadly, this is just one of such matches I've had this week.

 

Seriously, ANet?  Whatever algorithm you're running, it ain't working.

Edited November 2, 2021 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Gorem.8104]

I played GW2 pvp back at launch, then 2 years after launch, and then now. 

I see the matchmaking has not changed over the many, many years. 

 

The game appears to want to force you into a 50/50 win ratio, like, I do well enough and get around 20% usually for my team, then I'll have a spree of matches where I'm suddenly 40%+ of nearly everything on a 5man squad. I didn't think I'm that good but even the enemy team seemed pretty bad, could take on 2 of them at once, yet my team was some of the worst players I think that could exist in pvp matchmaking cause that happens on a 500-100 loss where I did most of that 100 as I was the only one to cap a point. I wish I was joking. 

Then the next match, You go from a struggle to winning 500-10 without even needing to do anything, I could have afk'd at spawn and won. I mean I know its been like that since I remember pvp'ing at launch but this is just hilarious. When I get a loss now its mostly just "oh the game must have decided I get my loss now I had a win just before". I really need to get into a pre-made and see what thats like, I wonder if they keep putting you against stronger and stronger premades until you reach a losing point (not the point of equal skill levels), then stay there at that losing point, lose until 50/50 then you are allowed to win again.  

[TheBigPlay.7504]

It's specially bad, when you get matched with double duos and your team has none. Like I've never seen a game that does this, except gw2. 

[Zekent.3652]

2 hours ago, TheBigPlay.7504 said:

It's specially bad, when you get matched with double duos and your team has none. Like I've never seen a game that does this, except gw2. 

This, the matchmaking is completely broken.

[Morwath.9817]

The lower playerbase, the worse matchmaking.

You can't make balanced matches with just few people in Q no matter how matchmaking is coded.

[Kayberz.5346]

One thing that would help is gutting all the "noob friendly" builds in the game

 

These "noob friendly" builds are actually ironically UNFRIENDLY to noobs overall.

 

The kind of builds im talking about are things like minion master necros, flamethrower scrapper, burn guardian, ect...

 

These builds can be played by a low silver level player and literal bots and quite consistently beat much higher skilled players just by virtue of how hard these builds counter others with very little effort or mechanical skill needed.

 

You can argue that these builds are good for noobs because it gives them something to play thats competitive while not being as skill intensive as other meta options but in reality all this does is create a large quantity of "noob killers" in the queue.

These builds sometimes require a player to be MUCH more mechanically skilled and have the game sense and knowledge of an experienced player to be able to beat if you aren't running a direct counter build.

So this creates an environment where really bad players both game sense and mechanics wise can get themselves into higher ranks by playing these builds but at the same time decent/mediocre players playing other roles/builds get beat by lesser players.

 

Until you get to the top of the ladder you will be in an ELO hell that is a mash up of bad players, bots, and decent players all randomly distributed between both teams, a complete diceroll is you solo queue

 

Nerf the low effort high reward builds, which in turn nerfs bots and makes noobs learn to play correctly. 

[lightDestroyer.1265]

10 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

One thing that would help is gutting all the "noob friendly" builds in the game

 

These "noob friendly" builds are actually ironically UNFRIENDLY to noobs overall.

 

The kind of builds im talking about are things like minion master necros, flamethrower scrapper, burn guardian, ect...

 

These builds can be played by a low silver level player and literal bots and quite consistently beat much higher skilled players just by virtue of how hard these builds counter others with very little effort or mechanical skill needed.

 

You can argue that these builds are good for noobs because it gives them something to play thats competitive while not being as skill intensive as other meta options but in reality all this does is create a large quantity of "noob killers" in the queue.

These builds sometimes require a player to be MUCH more mechanically skilled and have the game sense and knowledge of an experienced player to be able to beat if you aren't running a direct counter build.

So this creates an environment where really bad players both game sense and mechanics wise can get themselves into higher ranks by playing these builds but at the same time decent/mediocre players playing other roles/builds get beat by lesser players.

 

Until you get to the top of the ladder you will be in an ELO hell that is a mash up of bad players, bots, and decent players all randomly distributed between both teams, a complete diceroll is you solo queue

 

Nerf the low effort high reward builds, which in turn nerfs bots and makes noobs learn to play correctly. 

See,  the noobs you speak of can't reach a higher rank after a particular rank.  And they are noob stompers precisely because although they are powerfulz some of them can be easily managed if you know the game.  But,  on the other hand, no matter how good you play thr noob stomper build,  it wont be effective at all after a particualr time.  Core necro mm or only thiae builds in the meta are good noob stompers as well as highly effecrive later on.  So,  i am againat nerfing noob stompers.  It teaches players who dont play that,   to dodge properly,  cleanse properly,  kite deal dmg,  when to use stun break and a lot more.  

[Kayberz.5346]

1 hour ago, lightDestroyer.1265 said:

See,  the noobs you speak of can't reach a higher rank after a particular rank.  And they are noob stompers precisely because although they are powerfulz some of them can be easily managed if you know the game.  But,  on the other hand, no matter how good you play thr noob stomper build,  it wont be effective at all after a particualr time.  Core necro mm or only thiae builds in the meta are good noob stompers as well as highly effecrive later on.  So,  i am againat nerfing noob stompers.  It teaches players who dont play that,   to dodge properly,  cleanse properly,  kite deal dmg,  when to use stun break and a lot more.  

You're completely missing the entire point 

 

This topic is about how bad the quality of matches is for the majority of players (on NA) 

 

Sure a high plat player has no problem dealing with these noob stomper builds, but a high plat player isn't experiencing this bad matchmaking much in the first place that those builds are contributing to.

Like i said, some of these noob stomper builds can be played BY noobs and be used to beat players that are better players than them purely by the nature of how powerful these builds are against other builds while requiring a fraction of the mechanical skill or game knowledge to play effectively, they might not be top tier players they are beating,  but they are better.

 

This creates a situation where until you can break out of the ELO hell of silver and gold you will constantly experience matches with extremely varied levels of skill between the players which makes for common one sided matches with no rhyme or reason.

 

In NA legend rank is like 1 or 2 people despite it being an entire bracket as large as the previous tiers while bronze rank is pretty much exclusively people with rank decay and people that play very few games.

This condensing of the brackets is not how it should be,  people are not accurately being spread into their respective brackets, they are instead all being crammed together.

 

Having builds that can be piloted by a player of bronze skill level that can consistently win against players much higher skilled then them, but maybe aren't quite top tier players is unhealthy for the competitive integrity of the game and is why matchmaking is so trash

 

It doesn't matter if these builds aren't problematic at the highest level of play, its a problem for every other level of play which is inhibiting players from even getting to the point where they can play at the highest level because the experience of getting there is incredibly frustrating and often times not worth the time/effort in most players eyes

More often than not an inexperienced player isn't going to  "git gud" by playing against these builds, rather they will likely play one of these builds themselves and facetank everything on a flamethrower scrapper or MM necro with their dodge roll unbound and throw games from time to time because they dont understand things like rotations or playing the map objectives but their build will keep them comfortably in gold just zerging mid every game just by the random nature of the matchmaking, or they stop playing pvp altogether. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Kayberz.5346