THIEF IS FINE

A lot of posts recently on this forum have been livid on the idea that the thief class is now unplayable. While it is true that the role of a plus 1 became much harder, many thieves are still sticking to their high sustain builds and wondering why they can't get kills when they rotate poorly. Maybe consider playing a less rotationally demanding build or watching one of my rotation videos.

Also the real issues aren't thief's balance at all. It's the more busted classes like the ranger pet, lightning rod on ele, revenants, and necros. Remember we just came out of a balance apocalypse. There will be imbalances in the game. We don't want to power creep again.

Sry man respect as I watch all ur vids as the come out but just the fact u said thiefs roll as a +1 got harder speaks volumes to a classes poor state as were not talking about it being harder to 1v1 were talking it's harder while outnumbering the opponent lol.. If it's hard or hard-ish for a class to do its job of 2v1 with its teammate that should ring some bells. If thief allowed for quick +1's by dropping bunkers somewhat quickly while helping a teammate but was at a disadvantage vs same bunker in 1v1 I'd say that's more balanced. Right now +1 with thief takes to long imo vs the sustain of half the roster.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sry man respect as I watch all ur vids as the come out but just the fact u said thiefs roll as a +1 got harder speaks volumes to a classes poor state as were not talking about it being harder to 1v1 were talking it's harder while outnumbering the opponent lol.. If it's hard or hard-ish for a class to do its job of 2v1 with its teammate that should ring some bells. If thief allowed for quick +1's by dropping bunkers somewhat quickly while helping a teammate but was at a disadvantage vs same bunker in 1v1 I'd say that's more balanced. Right now +1 with thief takes to long imo vs the sustain of half the roster.

Remember, the idea is that thief is only weak if there are classes that are too overpowered. Look at any other class besides thief and they also look weak. We want to balance by bringing the top down not the bottom up, or as I said already, we return to power creep.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sry man respect as I watch all ur vids as the come out but just the fact u said thiefs roll as a +1 got harder speaks volumes to a classes poor state as were not talking about it being harder to 1v1 were talking it's harder while outnumbering the opponent lol.. If it's hard or hard-ish for a class to do its job of 2v1 with its teammate that should ring some bells. If thief allowed for quick +1's by dropping bunkers somewhat quickly while helping a teammate but was at a disadvantage vs same bunker in 1v1 I'd say that's more balanced. Right now +1 with thief takes to long imo vs the sustain of half the roster.

it depends. due to its fragile nature thief is affected more than other classes by broken stuff like pets and lightning rod. once that gets fixed it can go more ham on ppl which will make the plus 1 role much easier.

Not saying a bit more damage on backstab wouldnt hurt though

@Vallun.2071 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sry man respect as I watch all ur vids as the come out but just the fact u said thiefs roll as a +1 got harder speaks volumes to a classes poor state as were not talking about it being harder to 1v1 were talking it's harder while outnumbering the opponent lol.. If it's hard or hard-ish for a class to do its job of 2v1 with its teammate that should ring some bells. If thief allowed for quick +1's by dropping bunkers somewhat quickly while helping a teammate but was at a disadvantage vs same bunker in 1v1 I'd say that's more balanced. Right now +1 with thief takes to long imo vs the sustain of half the roster.

I agree dropping sustain on the current bunker is the best fix but knowing this company do u think that's gonna happen anytime soon. If by some miracle it does a nerf to thiefs burst probobly won't be far behind lol. I use sig of agility since assassin sig fix and 2.5-3k backstabs feelsbadman and that's with zerk amu lol

I really like the video. The sentence: "it is very unfortunate that skills like sic'em exists" got a chuckle out of me.

I feel vindicated lol ...

@"Vallun.2071" said:A lot of posts recently on this forum have been livid on the idea that the thief class is now unplayable. While it is true that the role of a plus 1 became much harder, many thieves are still sticking to their high sustain builds and wondering why they can't get kills when they rotate poorly. Maybe consider playing a less rotationally demanding build or watching one of my rotation videos.

Also the real issues aren't thief's balance at all. It's the more busted classes like the ranger pet, lightning rod on ele, revenants, and necros. Remember we just came out of a balance apocalypse. There will be imbalances in the game. We don't want to power creep again.

While I agree that nerfing literally anything but thief would make thief not so weak compared to the "anything else", that still means it's bad. Also do we really need to tone everything down because one spec was overnerfed? The game will become really slow and boring over a few patches if we keep adjusting everything to be in line with whatever is the weakest.Of course endless buffs will result in powercreep, I don't want that. Sometimes you buff, sometimes you nerf. I'm just saying this situation would be easier to solve with bringing thief up, instead of bringing everything down.

ofc thief a weakest class, it is to much skill intensive. But ofc it is ok, don't see problem.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sry man respect as I watch all ur vids as the come out but just the fact u said thiefs roll as a +1 got harder speaks volumes to a classes poor state as were not talking about it being harder to 1v1 were talking it's harder while outnumbering the opponent lol.. If it's hard or hard-ish for a class to do its job of 2v1 with its teammate that should ring some bells. If thief allowed for quick +1's by dropping bunkers somewhat quickly while helping a teammate but was at a disadvantage vs same bunker in 1v1 I'd say that's more balanced. Right now +1 with thief takes to long imo vs the sustain of half the roster.

I started playing only month ago so I will probably be wrong. But, isn't the separation of PvE and PvP balance (numbers, coeficients, etc) recent thing, something like January 2020? So now the balance team is gathering data and we will probably see some bunker busting action (I am looking at you unkillable engineers) and some tweaks to rangers and their pets.

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Vallun.2071" said:A lot of posts recently on this forum have been livid on the idea that the thief class is now unplayable. While it is true that the role of a plus 1 became much harder, many thieves are still sticking to their high sustain builds and wondering why they can't get kills when they rotate poorly. Maybe consider playing a less rotationally demanding build or watching one of my rotation videos.

Also the real issues aren't thief's balance at all. It's the more busted classes like the ranger pet, lightning rod on ele, revenants, and necros. Remember we just came out of a balance apocalypse. There will be imbalances in the game. We don't want to power creep again.

Also build diversity is at its highest in several years in GW2, because if you keep power creeping you eventually come to one or two builds per class that are viable. Also thief isn't the weakest class, mesmer mains would like a talk with you. Warrior is also seen as very weak right now. It would not be easier to buff, it may be easier from the perspective of someone who only plays thief.

@"Vallun.2071" said:A lot of posts recently on this forum have been livid on the idea that the thief class is now unplayable. While it is true that the role of a plus 1 became much harder, many thieves are still sticking to their high sustain builds and wondering why they can't get kills when they rotate poorly. Maybe consider playing a less rotationally demanding build or watching one of my rotation videos.

Also the real issues aren't thief's balance at all. It's the more busted classes like the ranger pet, lightning rod on ele, revenants, and necros. Remember we just came out of a balance apocalypse. There will be imbalances in the game. We don't want to power creep again.

+10

ThankYou! for being honest, transparent and for not sugar-coating the Truth. You brought me many memories during Guild Wars 2 beta where Thief Profession players were speaking the same Truth as you except without Portal. 'Portal is overkill and need nerfing' Giving Thief Profession Portal was one of the biggest insult to the Guild Wars 2 community players experience. 8 years of our pleads to implement healthy positive competitive changes especially with the Thief Profession was responded with a middle finger. A middle finger to the community by giving Thief Profession a skill mechanic which has absolutely nothing do with their core root identity but secures and prolongs their Toxic influence even greater in the game and to the player experience

Vallun including many honest Thief Profession players....you are honored in the community with your bravery and sincerity for speaking the Truth

-Burnfall-

Yeah thief is fine to +1 …. ho wait you can"t +1 a prot holo / core necro / ranger etc.…

Maybe thief is fine about powercreep, but in this meta full of immortal side noder, no its not.

And i dont talk about condi thief, not fine about powercreep, as all condi build.

I love how biased these players are and how they twist what they see to fit their bias. They argue with thief players that state thier bursts are to low saying thief has to be low damage class cuz its mobility. Then a thief streamer states thief dps is fine and it's the overperforming sustain some classes have that make thief's bursts and dps feel weak which is the same as saying that thief's burst/dps is weak right now but instead of buffing thief nerfing the other classes is what's needed and these deluded fools see thief fine full stop lmao. Not surprising. In case u guys aren't able to figure this out nerfing other classes sustain is a net buff to thieves burst and dps lol.Thank u burnfall and arthurandrall for basically admitting necro, rangers,holes and the like need sustain nerfs :)Hmmmm warriors thought of weak yet arthurandrall weren't u in that warrior thread in pvp section telling warrior mains to get good that warrior is fine? Lmao seems no class is weak in ur head but ur own, no surprise there tho right.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love how brain dead biased these players are and how they twist what they see to fit their bias. They argue with thief players that state thier bursts are to low saying thief has to be low damage class cuz its mobility. Then a thief streamer states thief dps is fine and it's the overperforming sustain some classes have that make thief's bursts and dps feel weak which is the same as saying that thief's burst/dps is weak right now but instead of buffing thief nerfing the other classes is what's needed and these deluded fools see thief fine full stop lmao. Not surprising. In case u guys aren't able to figure this out nerfing other classes sustain is a net buff to thieves burst and dps lol.Thank u burnfall and arthurandrall for basically admitting necro, rangers,holes and the like need sustain nerfs :)Hmmmm warriors thought of weak yet arthurandrall weren't u in that warrior thread in pvp section telling warrior mains to get good that warrior is fine? Lmao seems no class is weak in ur head but ur own, no surprise there tho right.

You're not wrong that there are a bunch of people biased against thief agreeing with me, but there are plenty of thief players who are telling me they think thief is still very good because they get results on it. Warrior is only seen as weak because there are more broken builds. Thats all. No one here is really wrong when they say thief is weaker than other classes. They are wrong when they prescribe a change like buffing it.

@Vallun.2071 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love how brain dead biased these players are and how they twist what they see to fit their bias. They argue with thief players that state thier bursts are to low saying thief has to be low damage class cuz its mobility. Then a thief streamer states thief dps is fine and it's the overperforming sustain some classes have that make thief's bursts and dps feel weak which is the same as saying that thief's burst/dps is weak right now but instead of buffing thief nerfing the other classes is what's needed and these deluded fools see thief fine full stop lmao. Not surprising. In case u guys aren't able to figure this out nerfing other classes sustain is a net buff to thieves burst and dps lol.Thank u burnfall and arthurandrall for basically admitting necro, rangers,holes and the like need sustain nerfs :)Hmmmm warriors thought of weak yet arthurandrall weren't u in that warrior thread in pvp section telling warrior mains to get good that warrior is fine? Lmao seems no class is weak in ur head but ur own, no surprise there tho right.

I agree and I've said in many posts that nerfing the sustain of the outliers is the better solution but thsts not guarentee'd to happen and also doesn't negate the fact currently thiefs burst feel to low comparative to the current sustain levels of some classes. I mean thief is a burst heavy spec being out bursted by tanks, that just seems off to me.Vallun do u feel that the time thief takes to +1 half the current rosters is a acceptable amount for a burst spec in the games current state?

Developers already said that the sustain is going to be nerfed where they consider it a outliner and some outliners in terms of damage too. Both will imply that thief will be indirectly profit it in both ways, being less weak against those outliners that hit too hard now and also, with less sustain, kill faster. If you do those things and also buff others, then we could end with other outliners. Do too many things at once will have undesirable colateral damage and bad results. Let them nerf first the sustain and outliners. Then, after the next settle, it could be the time to talk if something is underperforming to buff it or even rework it. Because some of the nerfs done before also had colateral damage making some things unfun to play now. And have fun is also important in a game, if you make it unfun nerfing the base mechanics and not capable of balance them in a better way, the only thing you are going to accomplish is make people reroll or even quit to play other game with the theme they want.

So for now, a bit of patience seems more reasonable and watch what happen in the next balance patch. With luck, maybe next week or if not, next month... It's not going to be a small patch, not if the sustain is involved, it'll be bigger than expected.

I do agree that thief is fine, I personally don't have problems with playing even d/p, although I generally go for daredevil s/d as I feel it can stay in fights a bit longer and it does actually a bit more damage. It is true that the meta became tankier and you don't have your 9k backstabs anymore, but that's fine too - probably a mark of a healthier game. Thief is in a good place and I would rather we didn't touch it in the next balance patch.

I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this.But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out.

thief is more than fine...

@Vallun.2071 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:A lot of posts recently on this forum have been livid on the idea that the thief class is now unplayable. While it is true that the role of a plus 1 became much harder, many thieves are still sticking to their high sustain builds and wondering why they can't get kills when they rotate poorly. Maybe consider playing a less rotationally demanding build or watching one of my rotation videos.

Also the real issues aren't thief's balance at all. It's the more busted classes like the ranger pet, lightning rod on ele, revenants, and necros. Remember we just came out of a balance apocalypse. There will be imbalances in the game. We don't want to power creep again.

Eh what? Changing one class is harder than changing all the others? Thats mathematically false, regardless of perspective. Not to mention all those changes impact each other, therefore judgeing what effect all your changes implemented would have becomes exponentially harder. Elaborate on what you've meant by this please?

Vallun you had one job. I'm never sending you a DM again lol

We need not worry about power creep coming back, not unless changes are made to overarching systems. Boon duration was brought down across the board, meaning no more boon spam. Amulets were removed which prevents classes like guardian and Rev from gaining permanent boons.

We've nerfed stab and stunbreaks across the board, so even the most broken class can be locked down and killed. We've made might stacking harder and vuln stacking more valuable. Finally, we've reached a point where, in order to have enough damage to 100-0 someone in a single combo, you must run berserker amulet. No longer can you run an off-tank amulet, two defensive traitlines, and a off-tank rune and still have enough pressure to instagib someone (looking at you pre-nerf Holo).

For these reasons, I'd say it's safe to bring thief up. Sometimes nerfs are appropriate, sometimes, in instances like this where the overall power curve is in a good place, buffing the weaker classes is a more appropriate choice.

Preventing power creep is a matter of choosing the correct action over a period of time. Simply refusing to buff in favor of nerfs will not prevent a power creep. In fact (as we've seen with WoW) repeated nerfs have been proven to bring about a reverse power creep. As I said in a previous post, as you remove mechanics, you also remove options for counter play.

Thief has never been fine. It was in meta-tier from 2012 due to the fact that it either started with or quickly gained access to the most broken abilities in GW2: stealth, teleporting and attacking while mitigating incoming damage (either by evading or by simultaneously inflicting blindness). Moreover, due to the class' sole respective access to Initiative, Thief can repeatedly use many of these skills in oppressive strings which allot them an impunity to combat which no other class could replicate. If a Thief had to peel from a fight, it would peel; and it would consistently flee and teleport around until it found a fight that it simply would win. It's not just an anti-fun, passive playstyle; it's one which cannot be countered by conventional play exhibited by the rest of the class base.

What this did for GW2 at large is that, with constant, incremental buffs alongside the introduction of Elite Specializations, every other class in the game slowly became more and more Thief-like in order to compete. Classes inflicted damage more quickly; they started moving around the field faster; and their damage grew higher and higher within the spans of invulnerability which they could now chain together during combat. Thief has never been adequately addressed as an oppressive outlier hiding within a band of 7 (now 8) other classes. Instead of addressing what made Thief fundamentally broken and just re-designing things around it, Anet threw SO MANY BANDAIDS over the severed femoral artery that is "bAlaNCe bY cOOldOWn" that, without any sort of resource mechanic to balance skill use, other classes started competing with Thief due to the sheer value that they received from pressing any given button.

This whole conversation has nothing to do with people who play like to play Thief or really Thief in general. Thief is mostly fine but ONLY IF every other class in the game can affect the field in a flow-based way which Initiative allows: multiple instances of the same attack and repeat replication of certain combos. Since nobody can do that except Thief, fighting against any class as a Thief is mostly just a "on-the-rails" schema which mainly involves playing footsies with an opponent's cooldowns rather than really challenging anyone on a mental level. If the rest of the class line-up had the opportunity to mix-up attacks rather than being bound by cooldowns, then we would see a much higher skill level in GW2.

tl;dr: Thief is broken, and Anet's solution was just to make every other class just as broken (except also without respective resource mechanics). If you really want Thief to be """OK""" then you just need to balance every class around Initiative and no/low cooldowns (and even if you do that, you basically turn Thief into the hollow shell that it always was from the outset: little more than flavor bait for certain personality markets and an advertisement for "HEY GUYS, WE HAVE INVISIBILITY NOW LOL!").

RIP Swagg, victim of Thief since 2012.